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YoloinOhio

Cover 1 evaluation of Laviska Shenault and in-depth overview of injury history

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1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

I think Wonderlic, grades, and Juco aren't necessarily representative of the necessary football smarts. 

 

 

 

I do remember a lot of "mentally it's going to be a challenge for him" from "unidentified sources" regarding Patterson..........which reminded me of CJ Spiller........who there were the same whispers about and who never appeared to understand where a play was designed to go pre-snap.    Which on one hand was sad and very unfortunate for the Bills..........but on the other made hearing Sean Peyton talk about what a weapon he was going to be(in his complex offense) all the more hilarious.   There are processing power minimums.

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3 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

Cleveland media doesn’t think they would get more than a 3rd right now. He’s always hurt plus everything else. Even when he’s playing he is hurt and it’s limiting his effectiveness. He’s still really talented, but he’s not the obj of the early years and the speculation is he won’t be again. 

 

Yeah - guys always got a sore groin, or back, or foot or something. 

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14 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

Yeah - guys always got a sore groin, or back, or foot or something. 

giphy.gif

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Looking at Shenault kind of reminds me of the Josh Allen analysis in a way.

 

Colorado is not Wyoming, by any means, but it’s also not a powerhouse like Alabama, Clemson, Oklahoma, etc. 

 

Allen was the offense at Wyoming. 
Shenault was the offense at Colorado.

 

Allen was asked to run a pro-style offense in college, which didn’t really suit his traits. He would’ve been much better in a spread, or an RPO, or basically any other offense in college. But he tried to make plays based on the calls the coaches decided to run.

 

I see that with Shenault as well. Yes he didn’t have many catches received from 10yds or further out. But to me that’s less a knock on his ability to go for a deep ball or run routes than it is a knock on the Colorado offense that they can’t run more complex, long developing plays. Their offense was more based on quick developing plays because they knew that they could get the ball to Viska quickly and let him make a play, as opposed to letting the line try to hold up for Montez and then relying on Montez to make a a deeper pass.

 

To me he’s like the Allen of WR’s. All the talent in the world, just needs to be developed. And while he’s had injuries, that also reminds me of Allen, you can be injured but not injury prone. And you can be hurt but still be tough on the field. Which I think both are.

 

I also believe his “DNA” has Bills written all over it. Not to say the other receivers don’t, as I don’t know their stories as well. But Shenault’s father died while being side swiped on a thruway, while the rest of the family was in the vehicle. I believe he was about 10. Since then he’s let his hair grow in honor of his father and plays the game to honor his father. He not only loves the game but the game has a deep meaning for him personally. Tragedy unfortunately, often becomes the fuel that people need in their lives to drive them to greatness. I think Shenault is going OL to be great.

 

Also, I believe the Cordarelle Pattersson comparisons aren’t overblown. I also think having experienced receivers like Brown & Beasley, who are both very good route runners, will help in the development of a player like Laviska.

 

I have been hot and cold on the idea, and it depends on how free agency develops, but I think it’s smart to get Allen one or (preferably) two rookies to bring in and develop with him over the next few years before Brown and Beasley start to decline as they age. 

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19 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Every single player has bust potential. Some more than others

 

His limited route tree and good but not great speed think he has a little higher bust chance than a guy like lamb or Ruggs who has world class speed

 

Moulds wasn't polished and he took 3 years to blossom. Yes a great player but we don't have 3 years to wait on a player to blossom

 

 

 

 

DK and Deebo last year had very limited route trees.

 

DK had questions about his catching ability as well.

 

The long story short of this: The NFL has coaching that these players don't get in college. All of your banter has that talks about him being all over the field as if it's a bad thing is sooo odd to me. Did you watch the Bills this year? This is how we run our offense. We use receivers in different ways. So do the Chiefs (MeCole Hardman also had a "limited tree") with Hill. Saints use Taysom Hill, 49ers use Samuel and the list goes on. 

 

This is the new NFL and I'm having a hard time figuring out why it's a weird thing that his coaches at Colorado tried getting the ball in their best players hands whenever possible.

 

He also had a very poor QB with no other talent around him. He was the team. This, along with his production, along with him lining up all over the field... are ALL good things. I don't love this guy but some of your reasoning as to why you don't like him are just weird to me.

 

You want Higgins that played about awful competition and had a top 3 QB in the country? I mean...... Or Jeudy or Ruggs that had the benefit of playing with each other? Shanault had no one the other team had to worry about.

Edited by warrior9

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For those that don’t want him, please don’t throw things at me, but this sounds like the type of player Beane usually drafts high. He’s like the WR version of Edmunds and Allen. 

Quote

COLORADO WR LAVISKA SHENAULT JR.: MID 1

Okay, everyone remain calm. Let's talk it through.

We start here: Laviska Shenault Jr. is a rarity. Everyone knows that, but the problem with everyone knowing it is that it gets old after a while, and we underappreciate its effect. Perhaps the combine will remind everyone and drum up his Round 1 status again. It should.

Shenault is a rare athlete and was used as such: jet sweeps, designed running back touches, designed wildcat touches and so on. But we cannot let that usage conflate his success as a true receiver, where he is as natural for the position as they come. Shenault has tremendous hands outside of his frame, the product of strong mitts and quality catch technique. He makes inaccurate balls at his waistline or below his hips looks like routine grabs and has enough grip strength to maintain tough and inaccurate catches through contact and while in the air.

Does Shenault have the best routes? Absolutely not. Does he need them? No, he doesn't. 

Shenault has smoothness and suddenness that allows him to win on the basic route tree paired with the unbelievable strength and home-run ability as a runner — he doesn't need to be snapping off post-corner-posts all day. Just hit him in stride — something that never happened in Colorado — and he's fully unlocked.

Shenault is the scariest player in this WR class; I think he has the highest ceiling.

 

Edited by YoloinOhio
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If the Bills keep all their picks, they are drafting 3 WR's from this class.

 

But if they do all the maneuvering they usually do, it'll be one or two WR's they draft.

 

This WR class is so good that the top of class could easily change after the combine.

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21 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

For those that don’t want him, please don’t throw things at me, but this sounds like the type of player Beane usually drafts high. He’s like the WR version of Edmunds and Allen. 

Shenault has smoothness and suddenness that allows him to win on the basic route tree paired with the unbelievable strength and home-run ability as a runner — he doesn't need to be snapping off post-corner-posts all day. Just hit him in stride — something that never happened in Colorado — and he's fully unlocked.

 

^^^ this...in today's NFL, especially with all the amazing combos and creativity of these coaches, you don't need the Stevie Johnson type routes from your big guys. That's why you have Cole Beasley. 

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14 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I do remember a lot of "mentally it's going to be a challenge for him" from "unidentified sources" regarding Patterson..........which reminded me of CJ Spiller........who there were the same whispers about and who never appeared to understand where a play was designed to go pre-snap.    Which on one hand was sad and very unfortunate for the Bills..........but on the other made hearing Sean Peyton talk about what a weapon he was going to be(in his complex offense) all the more hilarious.   There are processing power minimums.

You gotta trademark this phrase. So true!

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20 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah and the Patterson tape is MUCH more comparable to Shenault than the Fitzgerald tape.......in fact Patterson was more explosive.  

 

Patterson never developed as a receiver but I remember there were serious concerns about his intelligence/personality...........which may have nullified his ability to develop as a WR.........a player with his skillset shouldn't have been such a bust as a receiver.      

 

Here's his HS recruiting profile: https://247sports.com/Player/Laviska-Shenault-85906/high-school-150761/. No red flags that I see. He was a 3-star recruit, which is pretty good considering he started late. Curious as to why he chose Colorado (lately a weak program) over a place like Texas, but as it happens Colorado went 10-4 (8-1 in the Pac-12) and finished the season ranked 17th the year he committed. He was also the 117th ranked receiver coming out, so Colorado was a solid match. Ruggs was number 1. https://247sports.com/Season/2017-Football/RecruitRankings/?InstitutionGroup=HighSchool&Position=WR

 

Alabama, Arkansas, Illinois, and Arizona State also had recruiting interest in him. Not going to Alabama was very wise given that Alabama got Ruggs, the #1 guy in the country. 

 

Update: the recruiter who first noticed him and showed interest was at Texas Tech (when Mahomes was there!) before moving to Colorado. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2852683-meet-the-colorado-wr-who-has-the-nfl-drooling-hes-julio-jones-only-bigger

Key passage:

'He was lost at a position that has been minimized in most college offenses, was a 3-star recruit and was ignored by a majority of major schools. Darrin Chiaverini, then a wide receivers coach at Texas Tech, found him at DeSoto and told him he wanted to make him a wide receiver.

Chiaverini begged Tech coach Kliff Kingsbury to offer Shenault, and when Chiaverini left to become offensive coordinator at CU, his first priority was to sign Shenault.

By that time, Alabama had found tape of him and had zeroed in on adding him to a freshman class that already included receivers Jerry Jeudy, DeVonta Smith and Henry Ruggs III.

The very thought of Shenault at Alabama with that receiver class is frightening. Fortunately for CU, Shenault got bad vibes from his visit to Tuscaloosa—"it just didn't feel right"—and he and Nixon both signed with the Buffs.

"When he signed," Chiaverini says, "I immediately thought, 'It won't be long until he's the best player on this team.'

---

Anyway, the comp to Patterson vis-a-vis the processing power minimum standard seems pretty off base here. He seems to be solid enough on that front. 

Edited by dave mcbride

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5 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Here's his HS recruiting profile: https://247sports.com/Player/Laviska-Shenault-85906/high-school-150761/. No red flags that I see. He was a 3-star recruit, which is pretty good. Curious as to why he chose Colorado (lately a weak program) over a place like Texas, but as it happens Colorado went 10-4 (8-1 in the Pac-12) and finished the season ranked 17th the year he committed. He was also the 117th ranked receiver coming out, so Colorado was a solid match. Ruggs was number 1. https://247sports.com/Season/2017-Football/RecruitRankings/?InstitutionGroup=HighSchool&Position=WR

 

 

I've followed his story over the past year and a half..........he's an inspirational story...........I just haven't seen the tape to back up the hype and he's not a freak like DK Metcalf where the potential upside is that he ends up in a class by himself as a certain type of WR.

 

His workout info will matter a lot IMO.

 

He's a thick, heavy legged player.......basically a RB build......... and we've seen those type of players lose speed and quickness pretty early in their careers so if he puts up average numbers......which I anticipate......that's a red-flag to me.

 

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11 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I've followed his story over the past year and a half..........he's an inspirational story...........I just haven't seen the tape to back up the hype and he's not a freak like DK Metcalf where the potential upside is that he ends up in a class by himself as a certain type of WR.

 

His workout info will matter a lot IMO.

 

He's a thick, heavy legged player.......basically a RB build......... and we've seen those type of players lose speed and quickness pretty early in their careers so if he puts up average numbers......which I anticipate......that's a red-flag to me.

 

See my additions to the post. I added a lot. 

14 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I've followed his story over the past year and a half..........he's an inspirational story...........I just haven't seen the tape to back up the hype and he's not a freak like DK Metcalf where the potential upside is that he ends up in a class by himself as a certain type of WR.

 

His workout info will matter a lot IMO.

 

He's a thick, heavy legged player.......basically a RB build......... and we've seen those type of players lose speed and quickness pretty early in their careers so if he puts up average numbers......which I anticipate......that's a red-flag to me.

 

Also, he ran a 4.59 coming out of HS. Maybe he's a lot faster now with training, weight management, etc., but that's a lot of ground to make up: http://www.espn.com/college-sports/football/recruiting/player/combine/_/id/218609/laviska-shenault-jr

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4 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

 

A decent overview: https://www.dynastynerds.com/draft-profile-laviska-shenault-jr/

 

One thing to consider given the Bills offense: he represents a big upgrade over McKenzie, who plays an important role in Daboll's scheme. Shenault is kinda tailor-made to play that position. 

I also wonder if part of that was just using the strengths that McKenzie provided. I think Daboll is pretty flexible in what he does with the offense. They completely 180’ed from before Allen’s injury to after in 2018. A large part of that was the change in receivers from Benjamin and Holmes to Foster & McKenzie. 

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3 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

 

A decent overview: https://www.dynastynerds.com/draft-profile-laviska-shenault-jr/

 

One thing to consider given the Bills offense: he represents a big upgrade over McKenzie, who plays an important role in Daboll's scheme. Shenault is kinda tailor-made to play that position. 

 

No offense, but I don't want to allocate pick #22 to upgrade our WR4...

 

The only way Shenault makes sense to me is if they fill the need at WR1 with either a free agent or trade.    Then they could let Viska play a 'rover' type role as the X, Y and Z positions would be already settled.     

 

For example, if they trade for AJ Green or some other vet, then yes, a wildcard guy like Shenault would be an exciting addition.    But if Viska has to be that WR1, I'd like to go another direction with the pick...

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8 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

 

A decent overview: https://www.dynastynerds.com/draft-profile-laviska-shenault-jr/

 

One thing to consider given the Bills offense: he represents a big upgrade over McKenzie, who plays an important role in Daboll's scheme. Shenault is kinda tailor-made to play that position. 

 

 

McKenzie and his backup on the practice squad Ray-Ray are gimmick players.............using a first round pick to replace that position is probably a worse idea than using it on a RB.

 

WR1 types only in rounds 1 and 2.

 

Maybe Shenault blows up in the workouts and I feel more comfortable projecting him to the X position but I don't see it to this point.

 

Gotta' get the slots and gimmicks/KR's later in the draft.  

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We should have him. He’d be our Flying Tiger. 

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24 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

McKenzie and his backup on the practice squad Ray-Ray are gimmick players.............using a first round pick to replace that position is probably a worse idea than using it on a RB.

 

WR1 types only in rounds 1 and 2.

 

Maybe Shenault blows up in the workouts and I feel more comfortable projecting him to the X position but I don't see it to this point.

 

Gotta' get the slots and gimmicks/KR's later in the draft.  

Just thinking out loud, but the idea would not be to get a replacement gimmick player, but a Percy Harvin-type player (who was absolutely sensational when healthy early on and worth the early 20s pick that he ended up being). Of course, Harvin ran a 4.41, so it's going to come down to how Shenault tests out. 

Edited by dave mcbride
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Just now, dave mcbride said:

Just thinking out loud, but the idea would not be to get a replacement gimmick player, but a Percy Harvin-type player (who was absolutely sensational when healthy early on). Of course, Harvin ran a 4.41, so it's going to come down to how Shenault tests out. 

 

Yeah Harvin is a great comp......also picked #22.   I don't think Shenault is nearly that explosive though and fwiw I don't think Harvin was even necessarily a "good" first round pick.   He had one really exceptional season in Minnesota and made some big plays in a SB for Seattle but he was never a WR1.

 

But the thing with the Bills is that they've done a lot of thinking out loud on draft day over the years so I'm never surprised to find out that they don't have a system in place to prevent impulsive decisions.     The whole "we need a tackle" thing from last years second round "Bills embedded" concerns me.   Gotta' know better.

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4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Yeah Harvin is a great comp......also picked #22.   I don't think Shenault is nearly that explosive though and fwiw I don't think Harvin was even necessarily a "good" first round pick.   He had one really exceptional season in Minnesota and made some big plays in a SB for Seattle but he was never a WR1.

 

But the thing with the Bills is that they've done a lot of thinking out loud on draft day over the years so I'm never surprised to find out that they don't have a system in place to prevent impulsive decisions.     The whole "we need a tackle" thing from last years second round "Bills embedded" concerns me.   Gotta' know better.

He was very good his first three seasons and one of the best and most dangerous players in the league in his third season despite truly awful quarterbacking (Ponder and a decrepit McNabb).  He was also good in his fourth season, and if he had been healthy in that Seattle SB season, he probably would have racked up massive numbers. I'd take that. Again, though, let's wait to see how Shenault measures out in his 40, 20, and shuttle times. Harvin was elite in those areas.

Edited by dave mcbride

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