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YoloinOhio

Cover 1 evaluation of Laviska Shenault and in-depth overview of injury history

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6 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

This isn't on you, but I always get a chuckle when I see highlight packages that feature opponents like New Mexico State, Southern Mississippi, Arkansas or Tennessee.   

 

Not really fair competition for the Alabama's of the world who can field 10-12 NFLers (many of them first rounders) year after year against future stock brokers and used car salesmen.    IMO, that's why its so hard to evaluate many of these draft prospects, where the hit rate on how they'll do against NFL competition is only about 60-40.   It takes multiple, multiple data points and evaluations--and then a whole lot of luck...

 

I like Ruggs and would be happy to have him, however!

 

 


No doubt. I’d never post a simple highlight and say “see: this is our guy!!!” That one play, though, is perhaps the definitive example of how absurdly fast this dude is.

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1 minute ago, Buffalo Junction said:

I disagree. However, I will say that he was a lot more polished coming out than Shenault. Plus there’s the level of competition. Samuel put up a 10/210/3 game against Clemson his senior year and generally played well against SEC teams while drawing the top corner or double teams. His skills translated and it was easier to see than Shenault whom I cannot quite predict NFL performance. 

 

I agree with that.   I like Samuel and think he has a great future with a strong supporting cast on a playoff caliber team.    The same way Metcalf is set up in Seattle.

 

But IMO, Debo would just be "a promising rookie with untapped potential" in Jacksonville or Charlotte, meaning I doubt many posters would be taking about him as a type of player the Bills need.

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12 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

I agree with that.   I like Samuel and think he has a great future with a strong supporting cast on a playoff caliber team.    The same way Metcalf is set up in Seattle.

 

But IMO, Debo would just be "a promising rookie with untapped potential" in Jacksonville or Charlotte, meaning I doubt many posters would be taking about him as a type of player the Bills need.

In Jacksonville perhaps. I think he would have shown up big in Carolina. He would have found a way to show up as he tends to play up to competition. That said, on a bad team he wouldn’t have gotten any hype at all. 

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18 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

I agree with that.   I like Samuel and think he has a great future with a strong supporting cast on a playoff caliber team.    The same way Metcalf is set up in Seattle.

 

But IMO, Debo would just be "a promising rookie with untapped potential" in Jacksonville or Charlotte, meaning I doubt many posters would be taking about him as a type of player the Bills need.

 

 

I don't really understand where you are going with this take.

 

Maybe more posters got to see Metcalf and Samuel but it's not like 20 other teams got players like that in the draft last year.

 

It seems you are calling out posters lack of perspective on the league but I assure you that Carolina and Jacksonville had better passing games than Buffalo last year...........and young receivers DJ Moore(22) and DJ Chark(23) had 1,000 receiving yard seasons for those teams on what you seem to refer to as bad "set ups" or "supporting casts".

 

Players produce everywhere..........sometimes being on a good team helps and sometimes it limits production.     Who is to say that Samuel and Metcalf wouldn't have been better in places where they got more targets?

 

Here's the bottom line:

 

The Bills were 26th in the NFL in passing and have THE LEAST young receiving talent in the entire NFL.    

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11 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Here's the bottom line:

 

The Bills were 26th in the NFL in passing and have THE LEAST young receiving talent in the entire NFL.    

 We have 2 viable WRs imo, maybe Mckenzie, but he is like a 5th/6th WR to me

 

I'd argue we have some the worst WR talent in the league period, regardless of age

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I must admit I have been down on Shenault. I have given people a lot of flak over the guy. I apologize to everyone who I was giving a hard time about LS. I also gave a lazy comparison of Cordarrelle Patterson, but that was physically, playing style, and athletically incorrect. I watched the two, one after another, for a while yesterday evening and realized how far off base I was outside of the fact as to how their respective teams used them. I said I saw LS as Patterson 2.0 and nothing could be further from the truth.  So I went back and started digging. 

 

Watching Shenault I realized he is a MUCH BETTER hands catcher (as another poster pointed out to me previously) than I was giving him credit for, unlike Patterson who seemed to try to catch everything with his body. Shenault is also going to be an asset in the running game with his strength and physicality, whether it be blocking or getting the ball on a jet sweep. Patterson was not physical, just fast with an ability to put his foot in the ground then get going 0-60 in a split second. I was thinking to myself, "Dang, I made myself look like an idiot saying he was CP 2.0." Then I started thinking about who he actually did remind me of, who was he most similar to, which NFL WR has that same body type, and where had I seen Shenault's style of play before? All of a sudden it was like a light switch came on. The way they catch the ball, the way they move with the ball in their hands, the run after the catch ability, the body type, the way they track the ball in the air then meet it at it's highest point,  almost dang near everything. The only difference is the WR he is most like was a more polished route runner coming into the league and his college team did not use him in the same manner as CU did with Shenault. Who he really reminds me of after watching the two side by side is a slightly more explosive, but less polished route runner version Larry Fitzgerald. I also expect Shenault to run a similarly "slow" 40 time to be honest. Maybe not a 4.63 like Fitzgerald did, but I expect it to be in the 4.53-4.58 range. People are going to want to talk about the stat differential between the two, but watch both of them track the ball, watch how they catch the ball, and watch them both once they get the ball in their hands. To me they seem eerily similar. Watch these highlight reels and judge for yourself. I am not saying Shenault is going to be Larry Fitzgerald 2.0 and a have a HOF career, but that Larry is the WR that Shenault reminds me of the most when I look at the two side by side on the highlight reels. If this is who we take at #22 then I wouldn't complain as long as all of his medicals are good. 

 

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59 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:


No doubt. I’d never post a simple highlight and say “see: this is our guy!!!” That one play, though, is perhaps the definitive example of how absurdly fast this dude is.

 

Any chance that Ruggs make it to #22? If not, is he worth trading up for, or just stay put and take the best available WR? I would love to see the Bills get 2 WRs in this draft or at least 1 young VET WR (Cooper, Anderson, Perriman) and one in the 1st round.

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Just now, PIZ said:

 

Any chance that Ruggs make it to #22? If not, is he worth trading up for, or just stay put and take the best available WR? I would love to see the Bills get 2 WRs in this draft or at least 1 young VET WR (Cooper, Anderson, Perriman) and one in the 1st round.


I think all 3 of Jeudy/Lamb/Ruggs go top 16. As much as I like them, I’m not sure about going up to get one. More important to me to get a WR1 prior to the draft; that way you can pluck an Aiyuk or Hamler type somewhere between picks 20 and 50 and let them develop a bit.

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4 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 I'd argue we have some the worst WR talent in the league period, regardless of age

 

No question.   Throw in the TE situation and they essentially played all year with one arm tied behind their backs.

 

But my hope is that they draft WRs with short(er) development curves, rather than x-factor guys like Shenault who still have much to learn about the position.    The Bills no longer have the luxury of being an up and coming team--they have to take that step to being a playoff team that executes like one from opening day.   

 

Not many fans are going to be happy with a 9-7 or 8-8 season, but "hey, we drafted a lot of potential that will be good in 2021 or 2022."   I suspect McBeane know that and I'm hopeful they set their draft board for rounds 1-2 accordingly...

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

No question.   Throw in the TE situation and they essentially played all year with one arm tied behind their backs.

 

But my hope is that they draft WRs with short(er) development curves, rather than x-factor guys like Shenault who still have much to learn about the position.    The Bills no longer have the luxury of being an up and coming team--they have to take that step to being a playoff team that executes like one from opening day.   

 

Not many fans are going to be happy with a 9-7 or 8-8 season, but "hey, we drafted a lot of potential that will be good in 2021 or 2022."   I suspect McBeane know that and I'm hopeful they set their draft board for rounds 1-2 accordingly...

 

 

On point and totally agree.

 

Fans will be happy during the draft if that's the case because of their perceived value in a deep WR draft and then the I told you so birds (like me) will comeback to ***** on their car/head. 

 

A weak class means there may be 1-3 players and that is it and if you miss any of them you are SOL. A Strong/Deep class means you can find good developmental prospects throughout the rounds and have a better shot with their development than taking the mid-tier guy in a weak draft who is really a UDFA talent = the Cream of the Crap. The Cream of the Crop in a weak class or a deep class is still the desirable talent.

 

For the record we should be doing both and have the picks to grab a developmental WR in the 2-4th tiers who could be good in 2021 & 2022 to take over for an aging Brown/Beasley whose contracts will be coming due. The goal in RD1 should be getting a monster who can score anytime the have the ball in their hands immediately and create a threat that has to be countered by the defense opening up other plays for the rest of the offense.

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14 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

My "speed reading" of the Beane-meister's tea-leaves is that he feels the "deep WR draft" means we can get a WR who will help us in the 2nd, but if there's an Edge they really like who falls in the 1st to where he thinks he can get him, we'll take him because "those guys go fast"

 

 

I would rather use free agency for that

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17 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:


I think all 3 of Jeudy/Lamb/Ruggs go top 16. As much as I like them, I’m not sure about going up to get one. More important to me to get a WR1 prior to the draft; that way you can pluck an Aiyuk or Hamler type somewhere between picks 20 and 50 and let them develop a bit.

 

in 2018 to go from #22 to #16 was a 3rd and we got a 5th in return. I would say a move to 14-16 is a simple decision. On the Edmunds pick, Beane said he was trying yo get to #14 to grab him and with sliding talent at a position of need he will make a move, sliding talent at a position that is not a need, he would think twice and might not. If he has to go to 13, the price really changes, but we could still end up with a draft of 1 pick in each of the first 4 rounds if he is able to trade properly. (I did the exercise a few weeks back and don't want to look for it LOL)

Just now, John from Riverside said:

I would rather use free agency for that

Edge has to be addressed in FA, that position makes the most sense - Lawson is a FA and needs to be replaced, great place/time/reason to look for the upgrade. WR cost way too much in FA and for the price you pay; TE is a better value if the correct pass catching ones are available.

 

We were in on AB & OBJ last year. OBJ went for a 1st, 3rd & Peppers with a $90 million contract and attitude/diva mentality to go with it. We obviously chose not to pay that price, I'd rather spend the 1st & 3rd and a little more on a Lamb, Jeudy or Ruggs on rookie contract with a 5th yr option. 

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4 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

in 2018 to go from #22 to #16 was a 3rd and we got a 5th in return. I would say a move to 14-16 is a simple decision. On the Edmunds pick, Beane said he was trying yo get to #14 to grab him and with sliding talent at a position of need he will make a move, sliding talent at a position that is not a need, he would think twice and might not. If he has to go to 13, the price really changes, but we could still end up with a draft of 1 pick in each of the first 4 rounds if he is able to trade properly. (I did the exercise a few weeks back and don't want to look for it LOL)


Well, do think that a run on QBs and OTs in the top 10 is possible, and that could create a situation where the first WR hasn’t yet come off the board when the Jets are on the clock at 11. In that case, you could see Beane work the phones to move up, but you more or less have to get to TB at 14, because any of the Jets, Colts, Raiders, Broncos, and Cowboys could easily look at WRs.

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19 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

I am starting to see him mocked to the Bills quote a bit. Joe Marino thinks he is the best fit for the Bills out of this WR draft class. Very thorough analysis of this prospect. 


Mel Kiper also likes the Fit in Buffalo. Says he would be perfect for Buffalos system. 

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55 minutes ago, H2o said:

I must admit I have been down on Shenault. I have given people a lot of flak over the guy. I apologize to everyone who I was giving a hard time about LS. I also gave a lazy comparison of Cordarrelle Patterson, but that was physically, playing style, and athletically incorrect. I watched the two, one after another, for a while yesterday evening and realized how far off base I was outside of the fact as to how their respective teams used them. I said I saw LS as Patterson 2.0 and nothing could be further from the truth.  So I went back and started digging. 

 

Watching Shenault I realized he is a MUCH BETTER hands catcher (as another poster pointed out to me previously) than I was giving him credit for, unlike Patterson who seemed to try to catch everything with his body. Shenault is also going to be an asset in the running game with his strength and physicality, whether it be blocking or getting the ball on a jet sweep. Patterson was not physical, just fast with an ability to put his foot in the ground then get going 0-60 in a split second. I was thinking to myself, "Dang, I made myself look like an idiot saying he was CP 2.0." Then I started thinking about who he actually did remind me of, who was he most similar to, which NFL WR has that same body type, and where had I seen Shenault's style of play before? All of a sudden it was like a light switch came on. The way they catch the ball, the way they move with the ball in their hands, the run after the catch ability, the body type, the way they track the ball in the air then meet it at it's highest point,  almost dang near everything. The only difference is the WR he is most like was a more polished route runner coming into the league and his college team did not use him in the same manner as CU did with Shenault. Who he really reminds me of after watching the two side by side is a slightly more explosive, but less polished route runner version Larry Fitzgerald. I also expect Shenault to run a similarly "slow" 40 time to be honest. Maybe not a 4.63 like Fitzgerald did, but I expect it to be in the 4.53-4.58 range. People are going to want to talk about the stat differential between the two, but watch both of them track the ball, watch how they catch the ball, and watch them both once they get the ball in their hands. To me they seem eerily similar. Watch these highlight reels and judge for yourself. I am not saying Shenault is going to be Larry Fitzgerald 2.0 and a have a HOF career, but that Larry is the WR that Shenault reminds me of the most when I look at the two side by side on the highlight reels. If this is who we take at #22 then I wouldn't complain as long as all of his medicals are good. 

 


Good point, he does look like Larry Fitzgerald. I also see similarities to Sammy Watkins. 

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I know there are people who don't like him as a first round prospect, I do.

 

I think he and Ruggs are the two most explosive YAC receivers in the draft.  

 

If Ruggs falls far enough I hope that the Bills consider trading up for him because his speed and skills are Tyreek Hill like.

 

If not, Viska I hope is seriously considered.  Even though he is not a developed route runner I think he has aspects to his receiving game that are underrated.  He catches well, has strong hands and is great at tracking the ball.  You combine that with his YAC ability, and hopefully a creative usage in WIldcats, jet sweeps, slants and deeper passes you got yourself someone who can immediately contribute to the team.  The hopes would be that he continues to develop his route running ability.

 

I'd be happy if the Bills drafted him.

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2 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:


Well, do think that a run on QBs and OTs in the top 10 is possible, and that could create a situation where the first WR hasn’t yet come off the board when the Jets are on the clock at 11. In that case, you could see Beane work the phones to move up, but you more or less have to get to TB at 14, because any of the Jets, Colts, Raiders, Broncos, and Cowboys could easily look at WRs.

I feel like the Colts at 13 & TB at 14  are ideal candidates. ATL at 16 already indicated they will move (most likely back) and they need picks to replenish their team and have a poor cap situation as well. Tying into ATL I am thinking the DEs may be pushed up a bit and teams will jockey for them as well.

 

Some of these teams drafting in the top 15ish in a deep WR class will push that need into RD2 depending on the positions still needed and prioritized on their rosters. Raiders, Philly and Den are prime teams to look in front of. The Raiders have a great shot with their first pick to grab a WR and if they pass will definitely grab one with their 2nd first rounder.

 

Albright thinks he will be gone by 15 and correctly see's him as a Raider - Also thinks the Cards might nab Lamb if he is there
 

He also says Den likes Josh Jones & Reagor, no one in front of Phins want Tua and Chargers want Herbert

5 minutes ago, Magox said:

I know there are people who don't like him as a first round prospect, I do.

 

I think he and Ruggs are the two most explosive YAC receivers in the draft.  

 

If Ruggs falls far enough I hope that the Bills consider trading up for him because his speed and skills are Tyreek Hill like.

 

If not, Viska I hope is seriously considered.  Even though he is not a developed route runner I think he has aspects to his receiving game that are underrated.  He catches well, has strong hands and is great at tracking the ball.  You combine that with his YAC ability, and hopefully a creative usage in WIldcats, jet sweeps, slants and deeper passes you got yourself someone who can immediately contribute to the team.  The hopes would be that he continues to develop his route running ability.

 

I'd be happy if the Bills drafted him.

I really don't want a creative WR, I want a true WR who can get separation, generate YAC and can score as soon as the ball is in his hands = we have no one like that. 

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15 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

I feel like the Colts at 13 & TB at 14  are ideal candidates. ATL at 16 already indicated they will move (most likely back) and they need picks to replenish their team and have a poor cap situation as well. Tying into ATL I am thinking the DEs may be pushed up a bit and teams will jockey for them as well.

 

Some of these teams drafting in the top 15ish in a deep WR class will push that need into RD2 depending on the positions still needed and prioritized on their rosters. Raiders, Philly and Den are prime teams to look in front of. The Raiders have a great shot with their first pick to grab a WR and if they pass will definitely grab one with their 2nd first rounder.

 

Albright thinks he will be gone by 15 and correctly see's him as a Raider - Also thinks the Cards might nab Lamb if he is there
 

He also says Den likes Josh Jones & Reagor, no one in front of Phins want Tua and Chargers want Herbert

I really don't want a creative WR, I want a true WR who can get separation, generate YAC and can score as soon as the ball is in his hands = we have no one like that. 

 

Viska can do these things, he's just not a polished route runner at this point.  Same can be said with Tyreek, he is just so good at the things he's good at that it just takes over and I think Viska is similar that he is so good at what he's good with that it will mask his initial deficiencies. 

Edited by Magox

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32 minutes ago, wppete said:


Mel Kiper also likes the Fit in Buffalo. Says he would be perfect for Buffalos system. 

Bingo this is why I like him....lets get players that fit Debols system if we are going to keep him as the OC

 

We need to start scoring more then 17 points a game.

 

 

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1 hour ago, H2o said:

People are going to want to talk about the stat differential between the two

 

Just for the record:

 

Larry Fitzgerald (taken 3rd overall in 2004)

    Receiving Rushing Scrimmage
Year School Conf Class Pos G Rec Yds Avg TD Att Yds Avg TD Plays Yds Avg TD
Career Pitt         161 2677 16.6 34 1 7 7.0 0 162 2684 16.6 34
*2002 Pitt Big East FR WR 13 69 1005 14.6 12         69 1005 14.6 12
*2003 Pitt Big East SO WR 13 92 1672 18.2 22 1 7 7.0 0 93 1679 18.1 22

 

BTW, that 4.63 time for Fitzgerald is incorrect--he ran a 4.48 at the combine according to Pro Football Reference.

 

Laviska Shenault Jr.

    Receiving Rushing Scrimmage
Year School Conf Class Pos G Rec Yds Avg TD Att Yds Avg TD Plays Yds Avg TD
Career Colorado         149 1943 13.0 10 42 280 6.7 7 191 2223 11.6 17
2017 Colorado Pac-12 FR WR 7 7 168 24.0 0 2 4 2.0 0 9 172 19.1 0
2018 Colorado Pac-12 SO WR 9 86 1011 11.8 6 17 115 6.8 5 103 1126 10.9 11
2019 Colorado Pac-12 JR WR 11 56 764 13.6 4 23 161 7.0 2 79 925 11.7 6

 

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It appears that Viska is becoming a polarizng WR prospect.  

 

We'll find out soon enough if he's going to be a legit WR in this league, my bet is all the abilities, skills and athleticism he has will propel him to becoming a high end rookie performer.

 

I think his game is made for the NFL.  One of the best YAC prospects over the past few years, great hands, tracks the ball with the best of them, great instincts and seems to have a desire to be better.  

 

I think he's going to prove his doubters wrong.

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9 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Well, that's a fair enough opinion, but it's certainly not the only one.

 

Polished isn't necessarily the most important thing. Eric Moulds wasn't polished. Great pick, though.

 

Drafttek has him at #27. If that's his actual value, #22 is a reasonable spot to take him. I like him, myself. Tough as nails.

 

And there's no especial reason to think he may never develop.

Every single player has bust potential. Some more than others

 

His limited route tree and good but not great speed think he has a little higher bust chance than a guy like lamb or Ruggs who has world class speed

 

Moulds wasn't polished and he took 3 years to blossom. Yes a great player but we don't have 3 years to wait on a player to blossom

 

 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Bingo this is why I like him....lets get players that fit Debols system if we are going to keep him as the OC

 

We need to start scoring more then 17 points a game.

 

 


No offense here John, but how is a relative gadget guy with limited route-running ability a fit for Daboll’s super-complicated scheme?

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1 minute ago, thebandit27 said:


No offense here John, but how is a relative gadget guy with limited route-running ability a fit for Daboll’s super-complicated scheme?

Because I really dont think he is a gadget guy....I think he is just being used that way.

 

I see a physical bull with soft hands that is faster then ppl think.....who makes difficult catches on the boundry....the catches that only Duke was making for us this last year.

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While I am excited about this guy, I think the combine/pro days will also tell us a lot about this WR class

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