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YoloinOhio

Cover 1 evaluation of Laviska Shenault and in-depth overview of injury history

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2 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

 

Talent other than WR will be pushed up the boards and WR will be pushed down due to the depth.

 

The teams drafting in the top 10 for instance will be drafting Edge, QB, OL and likely a S, pushing those elite WRs down. Yes those teams have WR needs, but they are such bad teams they can afford to wait the 2-3 years for the next group of WRs to develop and push that need into the later rounds due to the depth of that position in the draft. The drop off from the Top Edge, OL, QB is so great, those talents will go much higher and leaving those 3 WRs to the 9-15 range (provided no one jumps in)

 

Do you think the Raiders at 12 and Colts at 13 will pass on a WR?     I personally don't, so if the Bills really covet Lamb or Jeudy, they'd have to jump ahead of them -- which would be pretty costly to move up that far.     

 

They might go up to 17 with Dallas if Ruggs was still there, but that's it on the offensive side.   I'd like to see them maybe go to 15 with Denver and take Epenesa, with Denver still getting Shenault at 22...

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41 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

Do you think the Raiders at 12 and Colts at 13 will pass on a WR?     I personally don't, so if the Bills really covet Lamb or Jeudy, they'd have to jump ahead of them -- which would be pretty costly to move up that far.     

 

They might go up to 17 with Dallas if Ruggs was still there, but that's it on the offensive side.   I'd like to see them maybe go to 15 with Denver and take Epenesa, with Denver still getting Shenault at 22...

 

ATL gave up #26, #58 & a 4th to go to #6; granted that was a million years ago.

 

KC gave up basically #27, a 2nd & a 3rd to go from #27 to #10. Which is a lot. Beane said last year that he would prefer to trade up and use assets for that current year only, which is why I added the 2nd instead of the following year #1. 

 

Realistically I think 2 of those 3 will be there at #12,13 & 14. The Raiders can easily prioritize any position at 12 depending on who is there, it is going to be a very fluid situation. The deep draft at the WR position is going to push them down the board and make a trade up more palatable. 

 

I was able to find this today from a Joe B interview last April:

Beane said on Monday that he tiers the board in the first round by three ways: top players, middle players, and bottom players. If he could assure himself a top player by worsening his position in one of the later rounds, that's a calculated risk I think Beane would be willing to make.

 

The notion of 'BPA' is sometimes used as a crutch by decision makers in and around the draft because it's a very general term that usually wards off counter questions from the media because the 'BPA' strategy has an air of finality to it. However, all things can be true here. Most notably, the needs of a roster and the theory of a team in the importance of position can weigh players on their draft board -- or at least I've come to believe as much with the Bills after listening to Brandon Beane and Sean McDermott over the past two years. Beane is doing his best to play poker, but nothing is more telling than the decisions that they've made in the past. And with their two first-round picks in 2018, we saw the Bills attack a need at a premium position both times, and if I had to guess, I believe that trend will continue along on day one of the 2019 NFL Draft. (Me - We took Oliver - pass rusher/disruptor big position of need)

 

from the 2018 draft:
 

An incredible combination of patience and luck meant Beane had given up fewer assets in that move than anticipated. Retaining the 22nd pick and hoping for an impact player, Edmunds inexplicably slid down the board. When he was still there at pick 14, Beane knew he had to make a move. Edmunds was the right combination of impact and need that spurred the Bills to take action again.

 

“He was sticking out on our board, and it’s a need,” explained Beane. “If a guy is sticking out on our board, and it’s really not a need, you might not do it. But with the hole we had there, and where he was on our board, it was a no-brainer. Even if we could have got to 14, we would have done it.”

 

The thing is Beane will have an idea what to accomplish in the draft and he won't sacrifice that, but We have to score more points and we have to help Josh. Daboll needs WRs who can make reads and adjustments and run good rout trees. Also need good hands to catch Josh's rockets and to be able to adjust for the ball, we need YAC and a guy who can get separation quickly from the DBs so josh can get rid of the ball quickly when pressured. Not too many of those guys. To go from #22 and up we will need to give up more then CLE's #1 in RD3...

 

Apologize for my lengthy posts lately...

Edited by Reed83HOF
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1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Here's the Percy Harvin story:

 

Explosive but oft-injured RB at Florida........obviously not built for the punishment.

 

Moved to WR as a pro to preserve him..........but wasn't really a route-diverse WR........which tamped down his playmaking potential.

 

So they said f*ck it let's hand him the ball more like they did at Florida.

 

He had a big year but took a beating and never played healthy again.

 

His career ypc is 11.4 because he wasn't very good as a downfield receiver..............which is one of the questions that comes up with Shenault who rarely saw a pass thrown over 10 yards to him.

 

The rationale for taking Roscoe Parrish was that he was super quick and also very fast and would make big plays.............and he did make some memorable big plays and contributed at an elite level on special teams...........but they passed on the bigger slower Vincent Jackson to take the electric Parrish and Jackson averaged almost 17 ypc over his long career and Lil' Scoe netted 11.2 ypc in his brief one.   

 

A great combo of speed and quickness is nice but being able to run without the ball and get in position to get big yards by catching the ball downfield is actually what I am looking for in a 1st round WR.

 

 

?? - He missed at most a couple of games at Florida in his entire career at Florida. He was extremely productive in college: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/percy-harvin-1.html

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2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

?? - He missed at most a couple of games at Florida in his entire career at Florida. He was extremely productive in college: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/percy-harvin-1.html

 

 

Yeah my bad he certainly didn't have injuries to the degree of Shenault......... it was more about Harvin being a difficult player to coach(choked one of his coaches.......and as good as Meyer was at covering ***** up the fact that came out.......it probably wasn't the half of it).    

 

And yes he was productive but as an "athlete"..........he wasn't a 1,000 yard rusher or receiver..........jack of 2 trades.........that didn't translate to a stellar career as either a WR or RB.

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On 2/5/2020 at 6:32 PM, BuffaloRebound said:

I like the clips of him playing in the snow!  

 

Might be a natural...….he is a Buffalo after all ;)

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Does this report change anyone's WR draft evaluations?

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28686020/colorado-wr-laviska-shenault-need-surgery-nagging-injury

It's saying he doesn't need core muscle surgery, which Beasley had last spring and which kept him out of OTAs into training camp. 

 

But from what I read, the condition he's diagnosed with instead, Osteitis pubis, can be even more nagging and debilitating:

" Until recently, there was no specific treatment for osteitis pubis. To treat the pain and inflammation caused by osteitis pubis, antiinflammatory medication, stretching, and strengthening of the stabilizing muscles are often prescribed. ....."

" X-rays taken during the early stages of osteitis pubis can be misleading - pain may be felt, but the damage doesn't appear on the films unless stork views (i.e. standing on one leg) are obtained. As the process continues and progresses, later pictures will show evidence of bony erosion in the p ubic bones."

"Osteitis pubis, if not treated early and correctly, can more often than not end a sporting individual's career, or give them an uncertain playing future. "

 

Former Bills draft pick WR Kolton Listenbee was said to have been diagnosed with osteitis pubis (described as a "groin injury") but to have played through it to the detriment of his ability to recover.  He ended up requiring a metal plate to be inserted in an attempt to rejoin his pelvic bones.

 

Anyone have some expertise here?  This does NOT sound good.

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On 2/5/2020 at 6:11 PM, YoloinOhio said:

I am starting to see him mocked to the Bills quote a bit. Joe Marino thinks he is the best fit for the Bills out of this WR draft class. Very thorough analysis of this prospect. 

 

sign me up !

 

 

Thats what we need an explosive WR who fights for the ball and can catch.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Does this report change anyone's WR draft evaluations?

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28686020/colorado-wr-laviska-shenault-need-surgery-nagging-injury

It's saying he doesn't need core muscle surgery, which Beasley had last spring and which kept him out of OTAs into training camp. 

 

But from what I read, the condition he's diagnosed with instead, Osteitis pubis, can be even more nagging and debilitating:

" Until recently, there was no specific treatment for osteitis pubis. To treat the pain and inflammation caused by osteitis pubis, antiinflammatory medication, stretching, and strengthening of the stabilizing muscles are often prescribed. ....."

" X-rays taken during the early stages of osteitis pubis can be misleading - pain may be felt, but the damage doesn't appear on the films unless stork views (i.e. standing on one leg) are obtained. As the process continues and progresses, later pictures will show evidence of bony erosion in the p ubic bones."

"Osteitis pubis, if not treated early and correctly, can more often than not end a sporting individual's career, or give them an uncertain playing future. "

 

Former Bills draft pick WR Kolton Listenbee was said to have been diagnosed with osteitis pubis (described as a "groin injury") but to have played through it to the detriment of his ability to recover.  He ended up requiring a metal plate to be inserted in an attempt to rejoin his pelvic bones.

 

Anyone have some expertise here?  This does NOT sound good.

Jeesh, that doesn’t sound great. I would like to hear what one of doctors says about that. I’m sure each case is different and must be looked at individually. 
While reading that I asked myself ‘who thought to have someone stand on one leg and then get an image?’. Smart stuff. 

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13 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Does this report change anyone's WR draft evaluations?

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28686020/colorado-wr-laviska-shenault-need-surgery-nagging-injury

It's saying he doesn't need core muscle surgery, which Beasley had last spring and which kept him out of OTAs into training camp. 

 

But from what I read, the condition he's diagnosed with instead, Osteitis pubis, can be even more nagging and debilitating:

" Until recently, there was no specific treatment for osteitis pubis. To treat the pain and inflammation caused by osteitis pubis, antiinflammatory medication, stretching, and strengthening of the stabilizing muscles are often prescribed. ....."

" X-rays taken during the early stages of osteitis pubis can be misleading - pain may be felt, but the damage doesn't appear on the films unless stork views (i.e. standing on one leg) are obtained. As the process continues and progresses, later pictures will show evidence of bony erosion in the p ubic bones."

"Osteitis pubis, if not treated early and correctly, can more often than not end a sporting individual's career, or give them an uncertain playing future. "

 

Former Bills draft pick WR Kolton Listenbee was said to have been diagnosed with osteitis pubis (described as a "groin injury") but to have played through it to the detriment of his ability to recover.  He ended up requiring a metal plate to be inserted in an attempt to rejoin his pelvic bones.

 

Anyone have some expertise here?  This does NOT sound good.


If he has what listenbee did, and played through it like he did, well just read this 
 

 

 

https://www.si.com/college/2018/02/02/kolby-listenbee-lawsuit-tcu-gary-patterson-legal-analysis

 

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https://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2020/02/13/matt-waldmans-rsp-film-room-wr-laviska-shenault-jr-colorado-dont-call-him-gadget/

 

Waldman does consistently excellent breakdowns on a ton of players every year. He argues that comparing Shenault with Cordarelle Patterson isn't fair to Shenault.

 

 

"When I made my first pass through the 2020 NFL Draft class of wide receivers this summer, I wondered if Laviska Shenault might have more in common with Cordarrelle Patterson than desired. Patterson was one of the best open-field runners I’ve ever seen and when you restrict your viewing of his receiving skills to the catch-point, there appeared to be a lot of promise for Patterson to become a primary NFL receiver. Unfortunately, Patterson hasn’t demonstrated the skill to learn the intricacies of an offense required of an every-down receiver. As was shared with me before and after his rookie year, Patterson needs a lot more practice repetitions to execute assignments than the average NFL starter.

 

"Remember when Bill Belichick told the media that he promised Patterson in the spring of 2018 that he’d make Patterson as productive as his talent suggests? Although Belichick got production from Patterson, it wasn’t to expectation and Patterson was a Chicago Bear by 2019.

 

"Patterson is a gadget player with elite physical traits. On the surface, Shenault’s film looks dangerously like Patterson’s—his targets consist of a high volume of short passes, running plays from the wing and the backfield, and the occasional vertical routes when the offense can match Shenault one-on-one.

 

"A deeper look into Shenault’s game reveals a promising intermediate and vertical route runner with an above-average arsenal of footwork and hand usage against press coverage. While Shenault’s route tree is limited in Colorado’s system, his ability to sell cornerbacks with his stem work and finish off patterns with sharp breaks indicates that Shenault will become a primary option in an NFL offense within 2-3 seasons.

 

There are a handful of more refined wide receiver prospects in this class but you can make the argument that Shenault has the best combination of floor and upside of any of his colleagues. It’s why Shenault might not have the highest grade on my board but he might be worth taking as the top option of this heralded receiver class anyhow."

 

 

 

 

He has a 15 minute video here where he spends a lot of time talking about what he sees and why he thinks Shenault is not a gadget guy. Points out a couple of things he'll have to work on and also a few subtleties that are already there in his game.

Edited by Thurman#1
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I’ve seen enough just watching YouTube highlights to know that he has ball tracking skills that make him a great receiver. 

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Only time will tell... Sadly more often then not most guys end up being not as good.

Edited by Hardhatharry

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2 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:


If he has what listenbee did, and played through it like he did, well just read this 
 

 

 

https://www.si.com/college/2018/02/02/kolby-listenbee-lawsuit-tcu-gary-patterson-legal-analysis

 

Yikes! That’s bad for Patterson. As far as listenbee while he was with the Bills, I remember that he had sports hernia surgery and it didn’t go well so that was what ended up leading to the metal plate. So maybe a good thing if Shenault doesn’t need surgery. 

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1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said:

Yikes! That’s bad for Patterson. As far as listenbee while he was with the Bills, I remember that he had sports hernia surgery and it didn’t go well so that was what ended up leading to the metal plate. So maybe a good thing if Shenault doesn’t need surgery. 

 

What led to the metal plate in Listenbee's case was that the surrounding tissues had atrophied and possibly the bones eroded.  It was a last-ditch effort to patch him up after the first surgery and the rest and rehab failed to work, and per link above one cause of atrophy/erosion is heavy "masking" treatment and continued use rather than rest/healing.

 

So the real question is how much has Shenault been relying on corticosteroid and anesthetic injections to play and keep training and playing?  The driver for him so doing is to maintain his value as a draft pick - but it could be to the detriment of his career as I understand it.

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I guess I'd be ok with Shenault if they manage to get an top X reciever via trade or FA.... I'm actually hoping they trade up if Lamb or Jeudy fall out of the top 10.

Edited by ScottLaw

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30 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I guess I'd be ok with Shenault if they manage to get an top X reciever via trade or FA.... I'm actually hoping they trade up if Lamb or Jeudy fall out of the top 10.

 

This is where I am. I think Shenault is a good player. If the Bills were the Saints and looking for a compliment to a clear #1 then I'd say pick him and don't think twice. I'm just not sure if I see him ever being that true #1. I can see him being a really good top end #2 receiver for someone.

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1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said:

Yikes! That’s bad for Patterson. As far as listenbee while he was with the Bills, I remember that he had sports hernia surgery and it didn’t go well so that was what ended up leading to the metal plate. So maybe a good thing if Shenault doesn’t need surgery. 


Didn’t realize how how all that snowballed for him. If his account of either allowing 12 weeks to heal vs a result of continued degeneration is legitimate; tough break for KL who had elite straight line speed and good Contested catch traits. 
 

Maybe could have had a career on a 53 If he sat out and healed. 

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On 2/5/2020 at 6:51 PM, Seasons1992 said:

 

That's just it. I distinctly remember everyone mocking Vince Wilfork to us and we instead chose Lee Evans.....mocks don't mean jack.

 

Mocks are called mocks because you mock the mocker.

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8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This is where I am. I think Shenault is a good player. If the Bills were the Saints and looking for a compliment to a clear #1 then I'd say pick him and don't think twice. I'm just not sure if I see him ever being that true #1. I can see him being a really good top end #2 receiver for someone.

 

 

I don't think I can go round 1 on a non WR1..........would have to be a pretty bad draft.    Gotta' have systems to protect you from being careless.

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14 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

sign me up !

 

 

Thats what we need an explosive WR who fights for the ball and can catch.

 

 

Kinda like this #2? I can't help but see Watkins at Clemson when see Viska's college highlights, maybe because they share a number. That said I'll have to see how Viska combine measureables are but if ask me today I shake my head no.

 

Edited by The Jokeman

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14 hours ago, whatdrought said:

I’ve seen enough just watching YouTube highlights to know that he has ball tracking skills that make him a great receiver. 

I'm not saying he doesn't but he only caught like 12 passes last year beyond 15 yards .. not a lot of chances to see him track the ball last season

Edited by Buffalo716

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14 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

https://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2020/02/13/matt-waldmans-rsp-film-room-wr-laviska-shenault-jr-colorado-dont-call-him-gadget/

 

Waldman does consistently excellent breakdowns on a ton of players every year. He argues that comparing Shenault with Cordarelle Patterson isn't fair to Shenault.

 

 

"When I made my first pass through the 2020 NFL Draft class of wide receivers this summer, I wondered if Laviska Shenault might have more in common with Cordarrelle Patterson than desired. Patterson was one of the best open-field runners I’ve ever seen and when you restrict your viewing of his receiving skills to the catch-point, there appeared to be a lot of promise for Patterson to become a primary NFL receiver. Unfortunately, Patterson hasn’t demonstrated the skill to learn the intricacies of an offense required of an every-down receiver. As was shared with me before and after his rookie year, Patterson needs a lot more practice repetitions to execute assignments than the average NFL starter.

 

"Remember when Bill Belichick told the media that he promised Patterson in the spring of 2018 that he’d make Patterson as productive as his talent suggests? Although Belichick got production from Patterson, it wasn’t to expectation and Patterson was a Chicago Bear by 2019.

 

"Patterson is a gadget player with elite physical traits. On the surface, Shenault’s film looks dangerously like Patterson’s—his targets consist of a high volume of short passes, running plays from the wing and the backfield, and the occasional vertical routes when the offense can match Shenault one-on-one.

 

"A deeper look into Shenault’s game reveals a promising intermediate and vertical route runner with an above-average arsenal of footwork and hand usage against press coverage. While Shenault’s route tree is limited in Colorado’s system, his ability to sell cornerbacks with his stem work and finish off patterns with sharp breaks indicates that Shenault will become a primary option in an NFL offense within 2-3 seasons.

 

There are a handful of more refined wide receiver prospects in this class but you can make the argument that Shenault has the best combination of floor and upside of any of his colleagues. It’s why Shenault might not have the highest grade on my board but he might be worth taking as the top option of this heralded receiver class anyhow."

 

 

 

 

He has a 15 minute video here where he spends a lot of time talking about what he sees and why he thinks Shenault is not a gadget guy. Points out a couple of things he'll have to work on and also a few subtleties that are already there in his game.

I think Shenault is more polished coming out and has better hands

 

But his own coach compared him to Patterson in an interview so it definitely has merit when his coach says it

 

Even tho like me , coach said he is a more polished reciever.. I do wonder if he will be able to get open deep in the NFL consistently because he has good but not great speed

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7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I don't think I can go round 1 on a non WR1..........would have to be a pretty bad draft.    Gotta' have systems to protect you from being careless.

 

Sure. But when you are consistently drafting back end of the 1st like the Saints the true round 1 talents are often all gone by the time you go on the clock. Not a problem the Bills have faced much mind you. 

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7 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

Kinda like this #2? I can't help but see Watkins at Clemson when see Viska's college highlights, maybe because they share a number. That said I'll have to see how Viska combine measureables are but if ask me today I shake my head no.

 

 

Sammy was/is a b!tch.

 

i just like the way shenault plays.  we screwed up last year on not drafting Metcalf, hopefully we dont skip out on elite talent again. Getting a process guy and a great athlete is hard to come by.

 

 

Edited by Buffalo Barbarian

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Like the kid but looks like damaged goods.  Potential for low availability, so the bills will pass in round 1.  Maybe they'll trade back up to the middle/end of the 2nd if he's still there...

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