Mitch Morse on Bills Offensive Identity: "Daboll is a Lunatic"

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, BigBuff423 said:

In my opinion, Daboll gets far more vitriol on this board than he deserves. Reading various peoples' takes on his game planning and play-calling who have far more knowledge than I do, say he's done a hell of a job for this Offense given where they are in the rebuild process. If Daboll remains with the Bills and the Bills use some of their Cap space a couple important Draft picks on Offense, plus another year of Allen's development along with second year for Knox and Singletary, I'd say this becomes a very, very good Offense next season. 9 new starters on Offense this year....keep that in mind and remind yourself of a raw 2nd year QB and consider where they're at....it's pretty fricken good all things considered.

Daboll is a tale of two people.  On one side he’s a stubborn, predictable, idiot who tries to get to cute too often rather than help his young QB find a rhythm.  Running Gore 2 straight times to put us in 3rd and long constantly through a first half.  Or running midgets like Cole on 20+ yard routes on 3rd and 5...stuff like that.  Other times, he turns Josh loose and makes incredible calls in key moments and finds ways to get the ball into playmakers hands.
 

He has been so frustrating and also brilliant at times.  Personally, I welcome a change at OC in hopes of finding someone who runs an offense that helps Josh and the other 10 guys get in rhythm early in games vs turning it on later.

 

An overly complex offense on a young squad with 9 new players I think is too aggressive in terms of creating opportunities to find a rhythm.  Which is why we probably see Josh and the offense play it’s best in the spread out hurry up offense where Josh gets to improvise more.

 

I won’t hate it if he is back in B-lo next year, but I also won’t miss him if he’s not.  
 

NOTE:  I reserve the right to change my mind if Daboll manages to impress in the post season.  But right now, the wild inconsistency in how the offense runs and the early game stubbornness still bothers me today.  

[ogham26]

daboll is pretty good.  if josh was connecting on the deep throws this year our offensive numbers would've looked amazing.  Hoping he stays.  hes the scapegoat for fans that don't really know all that much in my opinion.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

25 minutes ago, delirious said:

Although Daboll has left me scratching my head at times at his play calls I really don't understand the level of animosity people here give him.  I think he's done a good job and I see how much Josh has improved.  Even though his offense is complex, I like how well Josh has handled it so far - which I think reflects on the comments about how smart Josh is.  As Josh gets more experience and if we keep the same system, I think he is really going to be dangerous (if he keeps improving).  

 

Ultimately I'm leaning on hoping Daboll stays. I'd really like Josh to remain in this current E-P system.  If Daboll were to go, I'd hope Ken Dorsey would get the reigns.  I don't really have a reason as to why Dorsey other than I would hope that he would keep Daboll's philosophy allowing a somewhat continuous and stable development of Josh; picking up where Daboll left off.  

 

Realistically, I don't see Daboll going anywhere this year unless Josh puts up really good games and we elevate in the playoffs.

 

Being serious a minute, I see Daboll and Allen as akin in a way.  They both show flashes of brilliance at their respective craft, interspersed with play (play calling) that leaves stuff on the field and some serious "WTF?" moments.  Daboll doesn't deserve the animosity/tar and pitchforks treatment some here give him (neither does Allen), but they both need to take a serious step for the Bills to continue their climb.

 

If Daboll and Cleveland don't hook up, I would hope that Daboll would embark upon some serious self- scouting in the off-season, including sitting down with a defensive coach or player(s) and looking at his offensive play calls from the eyes of a defender.  I think he misses or is slow to pick up on personnel groupings and behaviors that are "tells" to a really good defense, and on play calling tendencies that become predictable with down and distance.   As someone here said, "if I can sit on my sofa watching on TV and predict it's gonna be a run play with 80% accuracy, so can the defenders".  

 

I also think we could benefit by streamlining and simplifying the playbook a bit so the rep count does not need to include some of the gadgets and gimmics and can focus on perfecting the things we want to be best at: "professionals practice until they can't get it wrong", but not if they're diluting their practice rep counts too much.

 

11 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Daboll is a tale of two people.  On one side he’s a stubborn, predictable, idiot who tries to get to cute too often rather than help his young QB find a rhythm.  Running Gore 2 straight times to put us in 3rd and long constantly through a first half.  Or running midgets like Cole on 20+ yard routes on 3rd and 5...stuff like that.  Other times, he turns Josh loose and makes incredible calls in key moments and finds ways to get the ball into playmakers hands.
 

He has been so frustrating and also brilliant at times.  Personally, I welcome a change at OC in hopes of finding someone who runs an offense that helps Josh and the other 10 guys get in rhythm early in games vs turning it on later.

 

An overly complex offense on a young squad with 9 new players I think is too aggressive in terms of creating opportunities to find a rhythm.  Which is why we probably see Josh and the offense play it’s best in the spread out hurry up offense where Josh gets to improvise more.

 

I won’t hate it if he is back in B-lo next year, but I also won’t miss him if he’s not.  
 

NOTE:  I reserve the right to change my mind if Daboll manages to impress in the post season.  But right now, the wild inconsistency in how the offense runs and the early game stubbornness still bothers me today.  

 

SNAP

[delirious]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Being serious a minute, I see Daboll and Allen as akin in a way.  They both show flashes of brilliance at their respective craft, interspersed with play (play calling) that leaves stuff on the field and some serious "WTF?" moments.  Daboll doesn't deserve the animosity/tar and pitchforks treatment some here give him (neither does Allen), but they both need to take a serious step for the Bills to continue their climb.

 

If Daboll and Cleveland don't hook up, I would hope that Daboll would embark upon some serious self- scouting in the off-season, including sitting down with a defensive coach or player(s) and looking at his offensive play calls from the eyes of a defender.  I think he misses or is slow to pick up on personnel groupings and behaviors that are "tells" to a really good defense, and on play calling tendencies that become predictable with down and distance.   As someone here said, "if I can sit on my sofa watching on TV and predict it's gonna be a run play with 80% accuracy, so can the defenders".   I also think we could benefit by streamlining and simplifying the playbook a bit so the rep count does not need to include some of the gadgets and gimmics and can focus on perfecting the things we want to be best at: "professionals practice until they can't get it wrong", but not if they're diluting their practice rep counts too much.

 

Yeah I agree 100%.  I really don't see Daboll going to Cleveland, I think (and it's been tweeted) that they are doing their due diligence this go around.  I have confidence that Daboll will do self-scouting; McDermott lives by that paradigm and we know he demands it of others.  If Daboll doesn't do it then I think we all know he will go out the door.  I'm all for simplifying the playbook if need to so long as we keep the mentality of game planning to the weakness of the other team and exploit those weaknesses.  

[TroutDog]

7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

You can make the argument that they are 30th in the NFL in scoring since he arrived too.

 

From all I've heard over the 2 years he has been in Buffalo now he has a great football mind and I have no reason to doubt that....... but he's on his 4th NFL OC job and hasn't had a good season yet.    

 

At the college level most successful teams have come around to the idea that generating offense is not just about calling clever plays like Daboll appears to be focused on.

 

In fact rhythm/tempo are now considered much more important in many cases.       

 

Daboll's offense had none of that the past month and only flashes of it in two years.

 

 

I’m not going to disagree with any of that but rhythm and tempo are driven by working together over time and he’s got all new guys this year. 
 

As I said, he’s perplexing to me. I really want to like what he does but the results certainly are not there yet. 

Edited January 3, 2020 by TroutDog

[Steptide]

I keep hearing this "ever changing" type offense, but am yet to really see it. Sure we see some creative plays now and then, but it's not like we're seeing a completely different offense every week. 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

I think genius is the word they are looking for.

 

 

[Da webster guy]

2 hours ago, DJB said:

Call it whatever  you want but to me the offence is vanilla and predictable . 

 

If Daboll has an outstanding  game on Saturday  I'll forgive  him because  he saved his best plays .  

 

But I'm not holding my breath  

 

Two biggest plays of the year at critical times in the game on both on primetime TV was the John Brown double reverse toss to Motor for a TD and the second was a TD throw to tackle eligible Dion Dawkins.

 

Opposite of vanilla and predictable. (chocolate and unpredictable?)

 

I agree that he can be overly conservative but remember he works for McD who believes punting and playing great defense will eventually put you in a good position to win.  In some of those 3rd and long situations where the play call is lame (and predictable), that's Sean in Daboll's ear saying I don't want a turnover with my young QB forcing a pass, lets boot it and play defense we'll have the ball right back here in this same spot in 5 minutes.

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Da webster guy said:

 

Two biggest plays of the year at critical times in the game on both on primetime TV was the John Brown double reverse toss to Motor for a TD and the second was a TD throw to tackle eligible Dion Dawkins.

 

Opposite of vanilla and predictable. (chocolate and unpredictable?)

 

I agree that he can be overly conservative but remember he works for McD who believes punting and playing great defense will eventually put you in a good position to win.  In some of those 3rd and long situations where the play call is lame (and predictable), that's Sean in Daboll's ear saying I don't want a turnover with my young QB forcing a pass, lets boot it and play defense we'll have the ball right back here in this same spot in 5 minutes.

 

 

McD goes for it on 4th down more than any coach I can remember seeing here.  I just don’t get how people slam him for being conservative.  The only times I see him slow it down, is when we have a lead and our Defense has been stout.  He definitely tends to take less chances there and protect the ball and play field position.  But overall, it puzzles me how people gripe so much about him being too conservative.  I mean, we take deep shots all game, even when not connecting, aggressively go for after it on 4th down, and not just on 4th and 1 either.  He let’s Josh throw downfield in 3rd and long to very long situations when most coaches just do a draw or short screen to play field position, etc etc.  

 

I think McD is more aggressive than people give him credit for.  McD does play field position and ball control at times, especially with a young QB and stout defense, but he is definitely not a coach out there playing scared or timid.  He isn’t afraid to take chances IMO.

[dpberr]

When Daboll is right, it's spot on (Cowboys/Ravens game)

 

When he's wrong, it's really wrong (Eagles/Browns game)

 

My biggest overall complaint about him is trying to make Frank Gore happen.  Frank's legs retired in Game #4 of the season.

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

We know where you stand, and I respect your position, but your argument would be more powerful if you don't include the 2018 data in your assessment of Daboll given the truly abysmal talent. I know I sound like a broken record, but the offensive talent on the Bills in 2018 was the worst in my lifetime, and I include the Gary Marangi 1976 season. At least OJ was dominant that year. The 2018 team had a terrible line, terrible QB play, terrible WR play, terrible TE play, and terrible RB play.

 

YOU know where I stand.

 

Considering that it's his FOURTH OC job in the NFL and still hasn't had one good season YET...........I think you protest too much when I point out that the Bills are 30th in scoring over the past two seasons.

 

I've yet to see an argument that's very strong regarding his work on game days.

 

The "he's building something that will look like the Patriots offense in a few years when Josh matures" argument is only slightly more compelling than the "Rex needs time and a few more players to make his defense work" argument.   Especially when he's interviewing for HC jobs that would place him elsewhere next season.

 

I understand last years offense was bereft of talent...........but I actually think this year they have a decent OL that has been together and healthy all year and a nice group of TE's and a dynamic young RB and dynamic running young QB.    

 

The 2019 offensive group is not much less talented than the group that Anthony Lynn lead to a MUCH better season in 2016 if you keep in mind that that the WR corps was decimated most of that year.    

 

The available WR's this year were certainly better than the average week in 2016.    

 

Point is you CAN scheme and game day coach your way to better offense than you appear to have on paper.      

 

It CAN be done.

 

Daboll has never done that though.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

22 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I get the leadership component with Gore but Yeldon should be active.... He's not great by any means but he is the only explosive and only decent receiving back on the roster. 

“explosive” is a bit much, but he’s been better than Gore on catching balls out of the backfield. 

[US Egg]

Morse has had concussion syndrome .... never know when it can flare up.

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, TroutDog said:

I’m not going to disagree with any of that but rhythm and tempo are driven by working together over time and he’s got all new guys this year. 
 

As a said, he’s perplexing to me. I really want to like what he does but the results certainly are not there yet. 

 

 

You see that's part of the fan confusion.

 

It's the exact opposite, actually.

 

The more simplified offenses are easier to install and play fast.

 

What's tough with Daboll's offense is that it's so complicated that it's going to take a long time to get players completely comfortable..........ESPECIALLY the QB.

 

It's a lot like the situation with Rex Ryan defense.

 

Yes.........if everyone is on the same page Ryan's complex defense it can be suffocating.

 

But if not..........it can be disjointed and leave you talking about "it comes down to execution".

 

The difference is that on defense blown assignments tend to stand out immediately............on offense they manifest as inaccurate passes or missed reads etc..

 

With Daboll we are definitely taking that kind of circuitous route to offensive success,  IMO.

 

I'd like to believe that's a master plan but honestly I don't just trust that McD is really up to snuff on the offensive side of the ball.

 

This is the guy who hired Rick Dennison and Juan Castillo and had faith in Nathan Peterman multiple times.

 

I think he's guessing.

 

I hope he guesses right.

[mjt328]

5 hours ago, BigBuff423 said:

In my opinion, Daboll gets far more vitriol on this board than he deserves. Reading various peoples' takes on his game planning and play-calling who have far more knowledge than I do, say he's done a hell of a job for this Offense given where they are in the rebuild process. If Daboll remains with the Bills and the Bills use some of their Cap space a couple important Draft picks on Offense, plus another year of Allen's development along with second year for Knox and Singletary, I'd say this becomes a very, very good Offense next season. 9 new starters on Offense this year....keep that in mind and remind yourself of a raw 2nd year QB and consider where they're at....it's pretty fricken good all things considered.

 

The average fan likes to blame coaching first.  

In reality, the primary cause is usually players and execution.

 

Brian Daboll's offensive philosophy is the same that you have seen from Josh McDaniels/Bill Belichick and the New England Patriots for many years. 

Our players just haven't been efficient enough to score enough points.

 

The pressure will be on Josh Allen to further improve and clean-up his mechanics in the offseason.  We need him to get that completion percentage in the 62-63 range to execute this offense at a high level.  It would also help if guys like Cody Ford (better pass blocking or slide inside to guard), Dawson Knox (less drops) make strides in their second seasons.  Not to mention another RB with fresh legs, and a third WR to keep the pass defense honest.

 

[TroutDog]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

You see that's part of the fan confusion.

 

It's the exact opposite, actually.

 

The more simplified offenses are easier to install and play fast.

 

What's tough with Daboll's offense is that it's so complicated that it's going to take a long time to get players completely comfortable..........ESPECIALLY the QB.

 

It's a lot like the situation with Rex Ryan defense.

 

Yes.........if everyone is on the same page Ryan's complex defense it can be suffocating.

 

But if not..........it can be disjointed and leave you talking about "it comes down to execution".

 

The difference is that on defense blown assignments tend to stand out immediately............on offense they manifest as inaccurate passes or missed reads etc..

 

With Daboll we are definitely taking that kind of circuitous route to offensive success,  IMO.

 

I'd like to believe that's a master plan but honestly I don't just trust that McD is really up to snuff on the offensive side of the ball.

 

This is the guy who hired Rick Dennison and Juan Castillo and had faith in Nathan Peterman multiple times.

 

I think he's guessing.

 

I hope he guesses right.

I get it that you don’t like McD or Daboll from your comments. That is certainly your prerogative. I, however, appreciate a ten (would have been eleven) win season. 
 

Comparing an O to a D is a slippery slope. Rex’s D was not only insanely complex but also required a certain type of player that fit his scheme in multiple areas. It’s not a decent comparison to what Daboll is doing, in my opinion. (See the games where we scored more than 20 this year and are 7-0 in those games.)
 

Asking younger personnel to do more than they can has, for eons, been how to separate people who ‘are willing’ from people who ‘aren’t willing’. 
 

I trust this regime and McD to grow each year. They are working a designed path and I am enjoying it. 

[BADOLBILZ]

10 minutes ago, TroutDog said:

I get it that you don’t like McD or Daboll from your comments. That is certainly your prerogative. I, however, appreciate a ten (would have been eleven) win season. 
 

Comparing an O to a D is a slippery slope. Rex’s D was not only insanely complex but also required a certain type of player that fit his scheme in multiple areas. It’s not a decent comparison to what Daboll is doing, in my opinion. (See the games where we scored more than 20 this year and are 7-0 in those games.)
 

Asking younger personnel to do more than they can has, for eons, been how to separate people who ‘are willing’ from people who ‘aren’t willing’. 
 

I trust this regime and McD to grow each year. They are working a designed path and I am enjoying it. 

 

 

It's not about liking or disliking coaches at all.....I like Daboll as a native son of Buffalo and I appreciate McD's defensive acumen and his stewardship in general.

 

It's simply a discussion and my perspective is the results........while others are frankly,  a bunch of excuses.

 

Because there are no good results from Daboll's NFL OC career.

 

I know the reality is this:  if the offense isn't a lot better next September then the same fans that are going unnecessarily out of their way to defend Daboll will be calling for his replacement.

 

Hell if they aren't a lot better TOMORROW a lot of the same people will be declaring that they hope he gets the Cleveland job Sunday. 

 

[Happy]

Morse is trying to say that Daboll calls the offense much like a lunatic would.  He's had one too many concussions, so it didn't come out clear.

[HOUSE]

Sure, I will pay to read the Buffalo news

 

3

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

The more simplified offenses are easier to install and play fast.

 

What's tough with Daboll's offense is that it's so complicated that it's going to take a long time to get players completely comfortable..........ESPECIALLY the QB.

It's a lot like the situation with Rex Ryan defense.

Yes.........if everyone is on the same page Ryan's complex defense it can be suffocating.

But if not..........it can be disjointed and leave you talking about "it comes down to execution".

The difference is that on defense blown assignments tend to stand out immediately............on offense they manifest as inaccurate passes or missed reads etc..

 

I tend to disagree with BadOl a lot but he's Right On here.

 

Over and over again, when a team that's had a "meh" offense or defense improves dramatically with fundamentally the same personnel after coaching change, the players are asked what's different and their answer is some variation of "Coach X simplified the Playbook"

 

Daboll has a lot of plays where the players have to think.  They run one route variation if they see this, they run another if they see that.  When it works, it's great.  When it doesn't work, it's an opportunity for the QB to look like he's making an inaccurate throw 5 yds away from the WR and it means half as many reps on each route during practice.

 

Now add in what Daboll was doing early in the season where he was running the same plays with many different personnel packages,

 

3 hours ago, mjt328 said:

The average fan likes to blame coaching first.  

In reality, the primary cause is usually players and execution.

 

Brian Daboll's offensive philosophy is the same that you have seen from Josh McDaniels/Bill Belichick and the New England Patriots for many years. 

Our players just haven't been efficient enough to score enough points.

 

There's two points here.  One is that the Patriots offense didn't start out as what we see now when Tom Brady was a young QB.  It was much less complex and has evolved.  The other is that the Patriots have incredible continuity at QB, other offensive personnel, and coaching.  Where they don't, they struggle.  It's not an accident that N'Keal Harry hasn't contributed as much as one would hope a 1st round pick would do.   The Patriots themselves are struggling with execution due in part to personnel change.

 

The second is that to say "the primary cause is usually players and execution" begs the question "why are pro players struggling so much with execution here"? 

Maybe they're bad players.  Or maybe they're not. 

Maybe they're having to think too much, which slows down a guy's reaction times just enough.

 

Maybe they're each having to read and react the same way, which increases the chances of SNAFUS if they aren't all on the same page

 

3 hours ago, mjt328 said:

The pressure will be on Josh Allen to further improve and clean-up his mechanics in the offseason.  We need him to get that completion percentage in the 62-63 range to execute this offense at a high level.  It would also help if guys like Cody Ford (better pass blocking or slide inside to guard), Dawson Knox (less drops) make strides in their second seasons.  Not to mention another RB with fresh legs, and a third WR to keep the pass defense honest.

 

I think you're kind of mixing cause and effect here.  If Allen has more reliable targets and better protection, his completion percentage will increase.  Yes, he misses throws, but see Kollsman's analysis of the Ravens game and why Allen's completion percentage was so low.