2017 revisited...McDermott or ALynn for HC??

[Doc Brown]

I really can't answer that as Lynn inherited a 5-11 team and turned them into a 9-7 team.  Last year they went 12-4.  This year they lost a lot of close games with a regressing veteran quarterback.  From everything that's been reported, his team has a lot of admiration for him and don't want him fired.  I don't think he should be.

 

Who knows what would've happened if we hired Lynn?  Would his first priority been to draft a franchise QB and keep Taylor as a bridge QB?  What if that QB was Mahomes?  Would he have convinced Woods to stay here?  Who would be the GM?  Who would be the d-coordinator?  Too many variables to give an answer and I'll just say I'm really an happy with the McDermott and Beane hires.

[eball]

9 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Too many variables to give an answer and I'll just say I'm really an happy with the McDermott and Beane hires.

 

And that, truly, is the point.  The topic was started as a tongue-in-cheek jab at those who have been overly critical of McDermott while lamenting letting ALynn "get away" but nearing the end of the 3rd season for each the two organizations are trending in decidedly different directions.

 

You are always going to see the stubborn, living-in-the-past "McD should have drafted Mahomes" people roaming the board, ignoring that not every team had that QB rated so highly and even the Chiefs sat him for a year.

 

I think Lynn did a decent job his first two seasons guiding a talent-laden team into the playoffs, however beginning with their horrible preparation for the Pats*** in the playoffs last season they've been a real schitt show.

 

Regardless of who you wanted at the time, if you are not a McD fan at this point you simply have an axe to grind.

[CLTbills]

6 hours ago, ganesh said:

Rivers is overrated.  I think Ben and Eli from that QB group have had much better careers.

Ben, yes. 

Eli's career record is literally .500. His record is 117-117. 

 

Rivers' career record is 123-99. The one thing he doesn't have that the other two do is a super bowl.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, BurpleBull said:

A lot of you mocking Lynn now, mocked the McDermott hire at the time if we're going to be honest.

 

A lot of you wanted the "hot" candidate...I think it was Kyle Shanahan at the time. 

 

He was never in the running in 2017. The Bills interviewed him in 2015 when they ended up hiring Rex and the Pegulas really didn't like him at all. He was not on the list in 2017.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

As McDermott has pointed out several times, he had too much to do laying the groundwork for getting this team headed in the right direction. Which we now see he did extremely well. He's said he didn't have time to scout QBs as thoroughly as he needed to take a chance on one that year. And he had Whaley as his GM, a guy who'd been all in on the EJ Manuel decision, certainly not a guy you would trust to pick your QB if he did trust him, and he clearly didn't as we discovered the day after the draft.

 

So while I agree and have always agreed with the direction McDermott decided to go it should always be recognised that it was a decision. The Bills didn't have to go that route in 2017. They could have decided they were going to take a QB in 2017 and reload the more veteran team around him. It wasn't the approach I advocated for. I thought it needed a more fundamental re-setting of the culture and personalities and was willing to suffer a bit of substandard talent for a year. The normal pattern is that it happens in year 1, here it was a bit odd with the unexpected playoff push in year 1 and then the down year in year 2. But I was willing to suffer through that as long as when we came out of that we came out of it better than we went in. If we came out as a scraping 9-7 and that was the ceiling team then I think criticism would have been legitimate. One swallow a summer does not make but if 2019 is an indication of where we are headed I think the moves worked.

[WhoTom]

4 hours ago, ALF said:

It would have been nice to keep Marrone and Jim Schwartz  for another year or two to avoid the Rex Ryan disaster.

 

If you're happy with where you are, then whatever road got you there must have been a good one.

 

I'm happy with where we are (so far), and especially happy with the direction we're headed.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

16 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

The Chargers were terrible in 2015 and 2016.

 

True, but I think they still had more talent, and certainly were set at the QB position which is typically the toughest spot to fill.

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So while I agree and have always agreed with the direction McDermott decided to go it should always be recognised that it was a decision. The Bills didn't have to go that route in 2017. They could have decided they were going to take a QB in 2017 and reload the more veteran team around him. It wasn't the approach I advocated for. I thought it needed a more fundamental re-setting of the culture and personalities and was willing to suffer a bit of substandard talent for a year. The normal pattern is that it happens in year 1, here it was a bit odd with the unexpected playoff push in year 1 and then the down year in year 2. But I was willing to suffer through that as long as when we came out of that we came out of it better than we went in. If we came out as a scraping 9-7 and that was the ceiling team then I think criticism would have been legitimate. One swallow a summer does not make but if 2019 is an indication of where we are headed I think the moves worked.

 

 

Not a BAD take per se.........but in hindsight I think you are forgetting how much you were banging the table for them to select Deshaun Watson in that draft..........suggesting you wanted them to kick the QB can down the road seems like a revision.

 

We all know that the real issue was not hiring the GM that they knew they were going to hire all along.

 

A lot of speculation that they wanted to steal Panthers draft info.   Which would have been spygate level tactical(if still dubious strategically) but also spygate level unsportsmanlike/unethical.

 

It was basically indefensible and that's why you never see that.    The "we wouldn't have had time to scout QB's" thing is a super flimsy excuse.  

  

[BurpleBull]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He was never in the running in 2017. The Bills interviewed him in 2015 when they ended up hiring Rex and the Pegulas really didn't like him at all. He was not on the list in 2017.

 

Not sure who the hot candidate name was the season McDermott was brought in, but I can remember McDermott's name being brushed aside and slightly mocked when I mentioned him and Vic Fangio as the guys the Bills should be looking to bring in, if they didn't stay in-house with Anthony Lynn.

[GaryPinC]

23 hours ago, eball said:

Asking for a friend.

 

Interesting to note:  their career W-L records are very similar:

 

Lynn:  26-21 RS, 1-1 PS (1/3 playoff berths)

McD:  25-21, 0-1 (2/3 playoff berths)

 

 

Why does the record matter much?  McD got this turned around with culture and attention to detail.  Certainly also some talent courtesy of Beane.  I feel like A Lynn is a good coach but doubt he would have taken McD's approach and so no way would I switch McD out for any other coach.

 

Contrast to the Browns.  There's a talented mess with an immature coach.  No veterans and zero winning culture.

How about the Steelers?  Great winning culture until last year when LB and AB exploded that locker room.  Now the locker room's reset, Tomlin's getting it done with a scrub QB.  

 

Best of all, McD is a constant improvement kind of guy.  Hopefully that means he changes his approach and offense conservatism if needed.  I already think he has compared to 2 years ago.

 

WRT Mahomes, he threw the ball like a pitcher in college, it was a bad look for a "system" QB and so there was definitely room for doubt.  As with Tom Brady, which everybody missed on.  In my mind the only two quarterbacks considered "can't miss" since the 80's were Elway and Luck.  Drafting a QB is still a crapshoot and it's pretty low class arrogant to use hindsight and hold it over newly minted coach/GM, especially since they ended up drafting Allen.  

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Not a BAD take per se.........but in hindsight I think you are forgetting how much you were banging the table for them to select Deshaun Watson in that draft..........suggesting you wanted them to kick the QB can down the road seems like a revision.

 

We all know that the real issue was not hiring the GM that they knew they were going to hire all along.

 

A lot of speculation that they wanted to steal Panthers draft info.   Which would have been spygate level tactical(if still dubious strategically) but also spygate level unsportsmanlike/unethical.

 

It was basically indefensible and that's why you never see that.    The "we wouldn't have had time to scout QB's" thing is a super flimsy excuse.  

  

 

I am not pretending I wouldn't have taken Watson. I was on record I'd have taken him if I was Cleveland with the first overall pick. To take an inferior Quarterback a year later in the same spot made no sense for them. 

 

I was not suggesting I wanted them to kick the QB can down the road (indeed that was the inference from my comment about the down year here being yr2 rather than yr1 - I'd have drafted Watson and taken my lumps year 1 if needs be) I was talking broader than that. I did think the roster needed purging. I was pro a rebuild rather than a reset. I think it was a choice, always have done. A reset was possible. We were not in "cap hell" that was all spin nonsense. 

 

I just believe you could have picked Watson and still done the tear down and rebuilt around him. I'd have picked Watson in 2017 and maybe I'd have kept Watkins. But the rest of the decisions, Darby, Gilmore (who I loved), Dareus, Glenn etc.... I'd have made all of those.

Edited December 18, 2019 by GunnerBill

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, BurpleBull said:

 

Not sure who the hot candidate name was the season McDermott was brought in, but I can remember McDermott's name being brushed aside and slightly mocked when I mentioned him and Vic Fangio as the guys the Bills should be looking to bring in, if they didn't stay in-house with Anthony Lynn.

 

Can't speak for anyone else but I was banging the McDermott drum for more than a year before we hired him. I loved his defenses in Carolina and every time I heard him speak I just thought that's my kind of guy. Except for the God stuff which I am not keen on. Everything McDermott says about running a football team is absolutely aligned with the way I'd do it. 

[LSHMEAB]

23 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Well the Pegula's thought the Bills had grossly underachieved too.    Did you forget the "7-9...not good enough" PC after the 2016 season?

 

The narrative that they "lacked talent" emerged only later as a defense mechanism/excuse.

 

The team McD inherited was known for excellent defensive talent and an offense that dominated on the ground and lead the NFL in big plays for 2 straight seasons.    

I would agree that he "inherited" a talented team, but they weren't a talented team once the season began. Gilmore, Watkins, Woods gone. Dareus gone midway through the season. The approach can certainly be debated, but the roster he coached in 2017 was not particularly good.

[Scott7975]

I don't need to revisit.  I was never a fan of hiring Lynn for head coach.  Not because I don't like him, I actually did like him when he took over for Rex.  I just didn't feel he had enough experience.  I mean, he practically went from running backs coach right to head coach.  I wish him the best and think he is a good dude.  Just wasn't interested in him as a head coach here.

 

I love what McD and Beane are doing here.  

[BurpleBull]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Can't speak for anyone else but I was banging the McDermott drum for more than a year before we hired him. I loved his defenses in Carolina and every time I heard him speak I just thought that's my kind of guy. Except for the God stuff which I am not keen on. Everything McDermott says about running a football team is absolutely aligned with the way I'd do it. 

 

Yep, I also thought he had the right temperament and values to turn things around.

 

 

[Thurman#1]

 

 

On 12/19/2019 at 6:21 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not pretending I wouldn't have taken Watson. I was on record I'd have taken him if I was Cleveland with the first overall pick. To take an inferior Quarterback a year later in the same spot made no sense for them. 

 

I was not suggesting I wanted them to kick the QB can down the road (indeed that was the inference from my comment about the down year here being yr2 rather than yr1 - I'd have drafted Watson and taken my lumps year 1 if needs be) I was talking broader than that. I did think the roster needed purging. I was pro a rebuild rather than a reset. I think it was a choice, always have done. A reset was possible. We were not in "cap hell" that was all spin nonsense. 

 

I just believe you could have picked Watson and still done the tear down and rebuilt around him. I'd have picked Watson in 2017 and maybe I'd have kept Watkins. But the rest of the decisions, Darby, Gilmore (who I loved), Dareus, Glenn etc.... I'd have made all of those.

 

 

It wasn't nonsense, Bill. We were absolutely in bad cap shape. At the start of the league year, they had $18 mill in cap space before they released a bunch of guys on Mar. 6, 2017. $18 million. Is that how you want to look when you start a reload? How do you fill in the gaps necessary to win quickly in a reload? We got a bit more space when we cut a few guys, like Dan Carpenter and Robey-Coleman, but at that point we had $24 mill but only 44 guys under contract. We really were in poor cap shape, and at that time even if you looked ahead to the next year we were in the lowest group in the league in terms of cap remaining for 2018.

 

For a team coming off a 7-9 season, a team with no franchise QB, that's very little money, particularly if you're thinking of reloading.

 

Bad, bad shape.

 

It's been reported that in his job interview McDermott told the Pegulas that that was the way to go, that he promised to get them in excellent cap shape by 2019. This was a major factor all along, right from minute one.

 

I agreed with all those decisions you mentioned, including trading Watkins. I wanted them to try to keep Gilmore and Robert Woods. I liked Darby but thought it was simply good sense to clear out those guys to clear up cap space and bring in draft capital for a franchise guy.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Thurman#1

[Mr. WEO]

WTF...Anthony Lynn??

 

He's running that team into the ground!  He's a bum.

 

This thread.......LOL

16 hours ago, BurpleBull said:

A lot of you mocking Lynn now, mocked the McDermott hire at the time if we're going to be honest.

 

A lot of you wanted the "hot" candidate...I think it was Kyle Shanahan at the time. 

 

Kyle Shanahan....Hmmmm.  What ever happened to that guy?

[BADOLBILZ]

7 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

I would agree that he "inherited" a talented team, but they weren't a talented team once the season began. Gilmore, Watkins, Woods gone. Dareus gone midway through the season. The approach can certainly be debated, but the roster he coached in 2017 was not particularly good.

 

 

I said then that they took a 10 win team to camp in 2017.   Hughes, Kyle Williams, Lorax(coming off 12.5 sack season) and Dareus was a very good playmaking defensive front..........Preston Brown lead the NFL in tackles from the MLB position.......Milano had an excellent rookie season..........Hyde and Poyer turned into studs..........White was excellent and Gaines was also excellent in the scheme(probably better than Darby would have fit).    Offensively it was the exact same OL/QB/#1RB/TE that had lead the NFL in rushing and big plays the prior year.    They botched the WR corps but in truth Tyrod and Co. did most of their damage in 2016 without those guys after Watkins and Woods struggled with injuries.   People forget in 2016 that the Bills were so banged up at WR that year that they had to pick up and start Percy Harvin just a few days later in Seattle.    

 

The starting talent was a lot better than people want to give credit for now.........what they lacked most was depth.........but they stayed healthy(which is a byproduct of McD's strength and conditioning team) which lessened that impact.   The WR corps was awful and after they traded Dareus the defense struggled to get their footing again but the talk of them tanking was laughable to me.    It was a veteran team ready to win not a team in steep decline or starting a lot of youngsters etc.. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by BADOLBILZ

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

 

It wasn't nonsense, Bill. We were absolutely in bad cap shape. At the start of the league year, they had $18 mill in cap space before they released a bunch of guys on Mar. 6, 2017. $18 million. Is that how you want to look when you start a reload? How do you fill in the gaps necessary to win quickly in a rebuild? We got a bit more space when we cut a few guys, like Dan Carpenter and Robey-Coleman, but at that point we had $24 mill but only 44 guys under contract. We really were in poor cap shape, and at that time even if you looked ahead to the next year we were in the lowest group in the league in terms of cap remaining for 2018.

 

For a team coming off a 7-9 season, a team with no franchise QB, that's very little money, particularly if you're thinking of reloading.

 

Bad, bad shape.

 

It's been reported that in his job interview McDermott told the Pegulas that that was the way to go, that he promised to get them in excellent cap shape by 2019. This was a major factor all along, right from minute one.

 

I agreed with all those decisions you mentioned, including trading Watkins. I wanted them to try to keep Gilmore and Robert Woods. I liked Darby but thought it was simply good sense to clear out those guys to clear up cap space and bring in draft capital for a franchise guy.

 

Not in great shape, no. Hell? Also no. There was one very easy save by moving Tyrod and you could get a QB on the cheap by drafting one. 

 

I agree the Pegulas knew what they were signing up for with McDermott. They agreed with his approach. As did I. But it 100% was not the only viable way of doing it. 

[Thurman#1]

48 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Not in great shape, no. Hell? Also no. There was one very easy save by moving Tyrod and you could get a QB on the cheap by drafting one. 

 

I agree the Pegulas knew what they were signing up for with McDermott. They agreed with his approach. As did I. But it 100% was not the only viable way of doing it. 

 

 

I'm not clear how you define hell. If it's extremely bad shape, then they were in hell.

 

You suggest moving Tyrod and getting a QB by the draft. Those two could not be done together by a team that was reloading. Doing those would leave you without a functional QB for the year outside of some very cheap FA like Barkley or someone like him. Which a reloading team wouldn't do. Pick up a decent FA QB and you've spent the Tyrod savings and probably come up with a QB no better than Tyrod.

 

Reloading didn't make sense.