warrior9 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, dneveu said: Chan did a good job without a lot of talent. But people really overrate those offenses that he had. 2011 was the best Gailey offense - 14th in points and 14th in yards (The only year his O was in the top half of the league) and a ton of turnovers that didn't help the defense. The bad defense that everyone complains about was tied for 5th in the league with 31 takeaways, and even scored 5 TDs (6 if you count a PR by Leodis). Fitz and the vaunted Chan Gailey O everyone loves so much gave the ball back 30 times. I'm just sick of the revisionist history of him leading fitz to this like juggernaut offense that was held back by the defense. They were a bad team - on both sides of the ball. Maybe slightly moreso on the defense but several losses that year are completely on the Gailey Offense. ... why so angry? Did you read the post I quoted and my response or did you just want to vent? The post I quoted said, "No one tailored an offense to Fitz" and I just said Chan Gailey did with him and Spiller (which .... is.... a ... fact) And after Gailey/Fitz left... Fitz's number diminished........ which is also........................ a fact. Edited December 17, 2019 by warrior9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 On 12/16/2019 at 1:48 PM, BuffaloBills1998 said: Whaley had nothing to do with Fitz getting cut, and Nix realized they made a mistake paying him all that money for mediocre production That prank phone call leak forced things to happen, uncomfortably. Wonder what would happened otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 17 minutes ago, dneveu said: Chan did a good job without a lot of talent. But people really overrate those offenses that he had. 2011 was the best Gailey offense - 14th in points and 14th in yards (The only year his O was in the top half of the league) and a ton of turnovers that didn't help the defense. The bad defense that everyone complains about was tied for 5th in the league with 31 takeaways, and even scored 5 TDs (6 if you count a PR by Leodis). Fitz and the vaunted Chan Gailey O everyone loves so much gave the ball back 30 times. I'm just sick of the revisionist history of him leading fitz to this like juggernaut offense that was held back by the defense. They were a bad team - on both sides of the ball. Maybe slightly moreso on the defense but several losses that year are completely on the Gailey Offense. If we had the 14th best offense this season we’d have at least a two game lead on the Pats right now. In the last 16 years we’ve had an offense in the top 15 of the league just twice: 2011 (thank you Chan Gailey) and 2015 (thank you Greg Roman). Gailey especially made chicken salad out of chicken turds. No one has ever called his offenses juggernauts. But he knew how to design a productive offense with creativity and good coaching. Something we have seen so rarely and are still pining for today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 On 12/16/2019 at 11:15 AM, CircleTheWagons99 said: Poor Football Focus Post of the Week ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 6 hours ago, Meatloaf63 said: Funny thing is I rewatched the game last night and as I had done after another much scrutinized Josh Allen performance, my opinion of Allen’s game changed drastically. The reason we only scored 17 points instead of 24 or even 31 was because of dropped passes and fumbles. Josh threw a horrendous miss to Beasley out in the left flat and a low ball to Dimarco, one long overthrow which I’m not sure what happened. The Dimarco ball should have been caught. Brown, Beasley and others dropped several catchable balls that ended drives. This Qb’s misses are scrutinized more than any other qb, and guess what, other qb’s have some bad throws too. I’m more of the thought this receiving core still needs improvement and that will help Josh more than anything else. PFF are a bunch of morons.... Every QB is going to sail some passes now and again however completely missing 3 attempts (without pressure) out of 25 is sailing an inaccurate pass on more than 10% of attempts and that percentage is probably higher if you factor out pressured throwaways. That's not acceptable for any QB. Josh has been better at cleaning those up but needs to iron that out to take it to the next level. I didn't see many dropped passes that were on the receivers. Another poster (either in this thread or another thread) brought up the fact that the Bills receiving core while it ranks high in drops only has 5 more drops than the league average. Those 5 drops aren't the difference in Josh's inaccuracy. That being said I still love Josh and I think he is a solid middle of the pack QB with the potential to be a top 5 QB if he makes the necessary improvements. I also think that Josh is the hardworking guy that would make these types of improvements as he already has come so far in decision making, footwork and so many other facets of his game. Do I think PFF is too hard on Josh? Yes, they made their opinion that because historically no QB has been able to fix accuracy massive accuracy issues on a pro-level that it must mean Josh is a bust and will never be good. I think PFF was pushing back against the "traditional scouting" that they feel their numbers are better than (Traditional Scouts saw what Josh could become.) However that doesn't mean the stuff they specifically point out as negatives aren't negatives and aren't things that Josh will have to improve on. I do agree that this receiving core does need some more pass catchers. They need a true good threat opposite Brown and they need to get the tight end position going either by utilizing Knox and or finding a vet TE to add some pop to the position. But I also believe that Josh will have to improve his processing (he can't hold onto the ball so long), his footwork (as far as he has come he has to do better) his ability to hold onto the ball when running, and his long ball placement before he can take this team to multiple playoff wins and seriously contend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 32 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said: If we had the 14th best offense this season we’d have at least a two game lead on the Pats right now. In the last 16 years we’ve had an offense in the top 15 of the league just twice: 2011 (thank you Chan Gailey) and 2015 (thank you Greg Roman). Gailey especially made chicken salad out of chicken turds. No one has ever called his offenses juggernauts. But he knew how to design a productive offense with creativity and good coaching. Something we have seen so rarely and are still pining for today. I am willing to say this could be how next year unfolds. I know many don't see Daboll, Allen and the rest of the O having a good shot at improving too much but I am looking forward to another off season to see just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 39 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: That prank phone call leak forced things to happen, uncomfortably. Wonder what would happened otherwise? It's a good question, but I think the bottom line was that Marrone, who was on board as HC, simply didn't value Fitzy very much or want him. He planned to install a WCO and Fitzy was pretty much a lifetime EP QB. Now, fundamentally, the plays are the plays and I think Fitzy could have picked up the WCO terminology pretty durn quick, but I think between planning to draft EJ and Marrone planning to bring in a different offensive system, they really wanted a different QB and weren't going to make Fitz a decent offer, with or without the prank phone call. So they went for Kolb, the bathmat took him out, and we wound up starting Thad Lewis for 5 games and Jeff Tuel for 1. Marvelous. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBills1998 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: That prank phone call leak forced things to happen, uncomfortably. Wonder what would happened otherwise? I’ll be the first to tell you we still wouldn’t have made the playoffs with Fitz as the Starting QB if he had stayed. The Jets had one of the best defenses In 15 and all he had to do was beat us to get in and he couldn’t. He extremely inconsistent and it looks like he’s at the end of his career at Miami Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 57 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: I am willing to say this could be how next year unfolds. I know many don't see Daboll, Allen and the rest of the O having a good shot at improving too much but I am looking forward to another off season to see just that. I’m fully expecting a Top 10 offense to happen in 2020 considering (1) how many players were new to the offense this year, (2) how many of them will be returning, (3) healthy cap room and numerous draft picks will present opportunities to fill holes (receiver, tackle), and (4) improvement from Allen in year 3. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Wayne Arnold said: If we had the 14th best offense this season we’d have at least a two game lead on the Pats right now. In the last 16 years we’ve had an offense in the top 15 of the league just twice: 2011 (thank you Chan Gailey) and 2015 (thank you Greg Roman). Gailey especially made chicken salad out of chicken turds. No one has ever called his offenses juggernauts. But he knew how to design a productive offense with creativity and good coaching. Something we have seen so rarely and are still pining for today. I dunno - insane amount of turnovers with is productive creative offense. Screams "not detail oriented" to me 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, dneveu said: I dunno - insane amount of turnovers with is productive creative offense. Screams "not detail oriented" to me Turnovers are on the players and often a result of limited players having to overcome big deficits due to a bad defense giving up too many points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said: Turnovers are on the players and often a result of limited players having to overcome big deficits due to a bad defense giving up too many points. If the 2019 Bills were 14th in yards per game - thats an extra 19 yards per game. If they were 14th in Points per game, thats an extra 2.8 points per game. However... PPG also factors in D/ST though... which the 2011 bills had 6 defensive touchdowns and 1 special teams TD. Taking those out would bring the offense to 323 points for the year.... Right around the 23rd ranking that the 2019 bills offense has... Taking out the lone ST TD that this buffalo offense has scored would put them at 284 points for the year averaging about 20 PPG. Turnover rate was 5 percent higher... the 3rd down conversion rate was 5% lower. RZ scoring rate was worse. I think the 2019 team will end up with more first downs too. 2 hours ago, warrior9 said: ... why so angry? Did you read the post I quoted and my response or did you just want to vent? The post I quoted said, "No one tailored an offense to Fitz" and I just said Chan Gailey did with him and Spiller (which .... is.... a ... fact) And after Gailey/Fitz left... Fitz's number diminished........ which is also........................ a fact. Just wanted to vent because people literally bring up Chan Gailey all the time like he invented offense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvlevydraftdaygenius Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 I was told that Chris Collinsworth is part owner of that. And that is true now you know why they are so bias against Josh. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatloaf63 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 2 hours ago, billsfan89 said: Every QB is going to sail some passes now and again however completely missing 3 attempts (without pressure) out of 25 is sailing an inaccurate pass on more than 10% of attempts and that percentage is probably higher if you factor out pressured throwaways. That's not acceptable for any QB. Josh has been better at cleaning those up but needs to iron that out to take it to the next level. I didn't see many dropped passes that were on the receivers. Another poster (either in this thread or another thread) brought up the fact that the Bills receiving core while it ranks high in drops only has 5 more drops than the league average. Those 5 drops aren't the difference in Josh's inaccuracy. That being said I still love Josh and I think he is a solid middle of the pack QB with the potential to be a top 5 QB if he makes the necessary improvements. I also think that Josh is the hardworking guy that would make these types of improvements as he already has come so far in decision making, footwork and so many other facets of his game. Do I think PFF is too hard on Josh? Yes, they made their opinion that because historically no QB has been able to fix accuracy massive accuracy issues on a pro-level that it must mean Josh is a bust and will never be good. I think PFF was pushing back against the "traditional scouting" that they feel their numbers are better than (Traditional Scouts saw what Josh could become.) However that doesn't mean the stuff they specifically point out as negatives aren't negatives and aren't things that Josh will have to improve on. I do agree that this receiving core does need some more pass catchers. They need a true good threat opposite Brown and they need to get the tight end position going either by utilizing Knox and or finding a vet TE to add some pop to the position. But I also believe that Josh will have to improve his processing (he can't hold onto the ball so long), his footwork (as far as he has come he has to do better) his ability to hold onto the ball when running, and his long ball placement before he can take this team to multiple playoff wins and seriously contend. He clearly had 4 passes dropped that should have been caught that alone would have raised his completion percentage by 16% The sailed pass to Beasly is really the only head scratcher Dimarco should have caught the low ball and nobody knows what happened on the long overthrow. The drops and fumble were critical in stopping drives and you can’t take away the fact that he was playing one of the better defenses on the road. Josh Allen will be fine, the bigger question is, is Daboll. Play design is inept at times and he often has no feel for the pulse of a game. He needs to improve as much or not more than Allen in my opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 1 hour ago, dneveu said: Just wanted to vent because people literally bring up Chan Gailey all the time like he invented offense. Gailey's stock rises every time Daboll's offense fails to execute a running back screen. Needless to say, Gailey's stock has skyrocketed in 2019. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 45 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said: Gailey's stock rises every time Daboll's offense fails to execute a running back screen. Needless to say, Gailey's stock has skyrocketed in 2019. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 3 hours ago, BuffaloBills1998 said: I’ll be the first to tell you we still wouldn’t have made the playoffs with Fitz as the Starting QB if he had stayed. The Jets had one of the best defenses In 15 and all he had to do was beat us to get in and he couldn’t. He extremely inconsistent and it looks like he’s at the end of his career at Miami I know. I just think that prank call pushed things to move faster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 4 hours ago, Warcodered said: That video tells you all you need to know about PFF. Don't care if they praise or knock the Bills but these guys are honestly just sitting there reading stats after the game and providing their opinion. I get it you can't watch every game but they made their bed when they said duck was a better qb because also they did was look at the stat sheet of both QBs the last 3 weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 (edited) 19 hours ago, MAJBobby said: against the lowest ranked defenders with zero tape on him. Happens every year and multiple times this year see Kyle Allen. Minshew etc etc. True, but entirely irrelevant to what was said by the PFF guy. And yeah, he was playing against some poor teams. So was Allen this year. 5 hours ago, The Wiz said: That video tells you all you need to know about PFF. Don't care if they praise or knock the Bills but these guys are honestly just sitting there reading stats after the game and providing their opinion. I get it you can't watch every game but they made their bed when they said duck was a better qb because also they did was look at the stat sheet of both QBs the last 3 weeks. No, they look at every single play by every single player. That's what they do. And neither of those two guy you're showing was the guy who made the original comment. Edited December 18, 2019 by Thurman#1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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