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Buffalo716

Revisiting my Allen scouting report

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** this is not a full scouting report. Just highlighting his deep ball from Wyoming til now**

 

700 passes into Allen's career I thought it would be a good time to go back to my scouting report on Allen and see how far he has came.

 

Everybody has been talking deep ball, deep ball , deep ball and what is wrong

 

Going back to Wyoming and his 700 passing attempts in the NFL I see 2 things that stand out...

 

One is a mechanical issue and one is a different kind of issue all together

 

The mechanical issue is simple and can be worked on fairly easily. Josh doesn't have a good base on his deep balls. He consistently throws of his back foot and uses all arm. His footwork is sloppy and he often doesn't plant and drive using his lower body and core

 

Sure having world class arm strength is phenomenal but the little fundamentals and using your lower body and core and keeping mechanics pristine are where Josh hasn't been consistent. I would like to see him work on his footwork and lower body mechanics and I think that will work out some problems

 

The other thing I see that I pointed out in my original report that still stands is that I called Josh Allen more of a thrower of the football instead of a passer... Now they may seem like similar terms but digest it and think it through

 

Josh is akin to a young flamethrower pitcher in baseball with little diversity in his game. He can whip it 100mph and win you games, and when he's hot he's hot...

 

But he hardly changes speeds, he has little movement on his pitches and relies on the fastball.. he is more of a thrower instead of a prototypical pitcher

 

Where as the finesse pitcher might not throw it 100, but he can change speeds from 89-94, has movement on his pitches, and a array of effective off speed pitches

 

When you think of a pure passer in football think of a Drew Brees... He can hit any level of the field with supreme touch and anticipation, he can change the speed of the ball at will and add gas when he needs

 

Josh is the anthesis of that right now and that's ok...

 

He struggles on the 9 routes and deep seam routes because he hasn't developed into a pure passer yet... He is still a thrower of the football... That is why he has excelled on crossing routes and square in and comebacks... Because those routes let him throw it on a rope , which is natural to him

 

The 9 routes and deep seems require a little bit of finesse and sexiness.. a little touch that throwers of the football havent mastered yet

 

And that's ok... That comes with hard work and repetition and by all accounts Josh works his butt off

 

Right now Josh is like a young Randy Johnson... He throws the football like few in the world, he can spin it .. 

 

He just needs to master the nuances of being a passer and not just a thrower of the football

 

 

Edited by Buffalo716
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I’m a bit in the minority but I actually worry more about the short game. I have always thought completing those keeps you in better rhythm and makes the deep ball easier to complete while your confidence is booming. His ball placement is pretty bad and he doesn’t give his guys much of a chance to run with the ball. And occasionally it’s too high to catch or so low they have to go to the ground to catch it.  
 

The homerun deep balls I like your assessment on. It is definitely an all arm kind of throw. Also like the baseball reference included. In my perfect world Josh would make friends with Russel Wilson and try to hang out with him in the offseason. I have never been a big Wilson fan just cause I don’t like the Seahawks but he’s a helluva quarterback and who I would like to see Allen mimic his game off of a little bit. Wilson has the same kind of arm strength but has been able to evolve with hard work like you suggested Allen will and can make any and all throws now. 

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31 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

700 passes into Allen's career I thought it would be a good time to go back to my scouting report on Allen and see how far he has came.

 

Everybody has been talking deep ball, deep ball , deep ball and what is wrong

 

Going back to Wyoming and his 700 passing attempts in the NFL I see 2 things that stand out...

 

One is a mechanical issue and one is a different kind of issue all together

 

The mechanical issue is simple and can be worked on fairly easily. Josh doesn't have a good base on his deep balls. He consistently throws of his back foot and uses all arm. His footwork is sloppy and he often doesn't plant and drive using his lower body and core

 

Sure having world class arm strength is phenomenal but the little fundamentals and using your lower body and core and keeping mechanics pristine are where Josh hasn't been consistent. I would like to see him work on his footwork and lower body mechanics and I think that will work out some problems

 

The other thing I see that I pointed out in my original report that still stands is that I called Josh Allen more of a thrower of the football instead of a passer... Now they may seem like similar terms but digest it and think it through

 

Josh is akin to a young flamethrower pitcher in baseball with little diversity in his game. He can whip it 100mph and win you games, and when he's hot he's hot...

 

But he hardly changes speeds, he has little movement on his pitches and relies on the fastball.. he is more of a thrower instead of a prototypical pitcher

 

Where as the pure pitcher might not throw it 100, but he can change speeds from 89-94, has movement on his pitches, and a array of effective off speed pitches

 

When you think of a pure passer in football think of a Drew Brees... He can hit any level of the field with supreme touch and anticipation, he can change the speed of the ball at will and add gas when he needs

 

Josh is the anthesis of that right now and that's ok...

 

He struggles on the 9 routes and deep seam routes because he hasn't developed into a pure passer yet... He is still a thrower of the football... That is why he has excelled on crossing routes and square in and comebacks... Because those routes let him throw it on a rope , which is natural to him

 

The 9 routes and deep seems require a little bit of finesse and sexiness.. a little touch that throwers of the football havent mastered yet

 

And that's ok... That comes with hard work and repetition and by all accounts Josh works his butt off

 

Right now Josh is like a young Randy Johnson... He throws the football like few in the world, he can spin it .. 

 

He just needs to master the nuances of being a passer and not just a thrower of the football

 

To your point.....elsewhere I posted a screen capture of Josh's deep completion to John Brown in the Miami game.  Guess what, you see a fairly textbook passing motion.

In contrast, the three unsuccessful deep throws at the start of the Ravens game were exactly as you describe - although to be fair to Josh, if he'd have stepped into his throw I think he would have brought the ball within reach of a rusher's arm and/or had Spain pushed into his leg in two of them.  In the third, he was throwing on the run without time to reset.

 

I think he gets it when he has time and space....it just isn't engrained enough to work under pressure yet.

 

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43 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

700 passes into Allen's career I thought it would be a good time to go back to my scouting report on Allen and see how far he has came.

 

Everybody has been talking deep ball, deep ball , deep ball and what is wrong

 

Going back to Wyoming and his 700 passing attempts in the NFL I see 2 things that stand out...

 

One is a mechanical issue and one is a different kind of issue all together

 

The mechanical issue is simple and can be worked on fairly easily. Josh doesn't have a good base on his deep balls. He consistently throws of his back foot and uses all arm. His footwork is sloppy and he often doesn't plant and drive using his lower body and core

 

Sure having world class arm strength is phenomenal but the little fundamentals and using your lower body and core and keeping mechanics pristine are where Josh hasn't been consistent. I would like to see him work on his footwork and lower body mechanics and I think that will work out some problems

 

The other thing I see that I pointed out in my original report that still stands is that I called Josh Allen more of a thrower of the football instead of a passer... Now they may seem like similar terms but digest it and think it through

 

Josh is akin to a young flamethrower pitcher in baseball with little diversity in his game. He can whip it 100mph and win you games, and when he's hot he's hot...

 

But he hardly changes speeds, he has little movement on his pitches and relies on the fastball.. he is more of a thrower instead of a prototypical pitcher

 

Where as the pure pitcher might not throw it 100, but he can change speeds from 89-94, has movement on his pitches, and a array of effective off speed pitches

 

When you think of a pure passer in football think of a Drew Brees... He can hit any level of the field with supreme touch and anticipation, he can change the speed of the ball at will and add gas when he needs

 

Josh is the anthesis of that right now and that's ok...

 

He struggles on the 9 routes and deep seam routes because he hasn't developed into a pure passer yet... He is still a thrower of the football... That is why he has excelled on crossing routes and square in and comebacks... Because those routes let him throw it on a rope , which is natural to him

 

The 9 routes and deep seems require a little bit of finesse and sexiness.. a little touch that throwers of the football havent mastered yet

 

And that's ok... That comes with hard work and repetition and by all accounts Josh works his butt off

 

Right now Josh is like a young Randy Johnson... He throws the football like few in the world, he can spin it .. 

 

He just needs to master the nuances of being a passer and not just a thrower of the football

 

 


I think we are very much on the same page. Glad you posted, much easier than half replies in another thread. 

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He needs to tame and train the rocket launcher attached to his shoulder. I think he will get there too. To me, he demonstrates skills and abilities you just can’t teach. Every QB prospect has their strengths and weaknesses. A great QB needs a bunch of different skills and charachteristics. I like what Josh has got. He has shown the ability to learn and improve and I think we’ll see improvement in the Steelers game. 

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We all know he can chuck it 90 yards downfield. The problem is on these deep throws there's zero launch angle. No arch, no trajectory, nothing. Just flat line drives. Hitting 102 on the gun means nothing if you can spot your offspeed......

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1 hour ago, LABILLBACKER said:

We all know he can chuck it 90 yards downfield. The problem is on these deep throws there's zero launch angle. No arch, no trajectory, nothing. Just flat line drives. Hitting 102 on the gun means nothing if you can spot your offspeed......

 

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I've said before and now that I'm picking my way through the Ravens all-22 I'll say again:

 

-the key to the season is between Allen's ears, not in any difficulty with big throws

-he had simple, makeable throws he has been completing with high success, there for the taking through most of the game. 

-whatever reason he passed them up, that needs to be fixed - Now.

 

 

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The ball seems to come out of his hand pretty effortlessly to me. I do think he is a natural passer and not just a "thrower of the football".

 

Lamar Jackson is the one to me that seems more like a thrower of the football. The ball comes out awkwardly, to my eyes, and he is almost aiming and thinking about his throws. The ball isn't an extension of his arm yet (or maybe never will be). He gets the jobs done and even makes high level throws on occasion, I just bet it takes him more work than some because he isn't a natural thrower.

 

With Allen, though, it all looks effortless (from the waist up at least). The ball IS an extension of is arm. He doesn't have to think through s throw or aim it, he can just fire. But I do agree that his issues with accuracy on the deep ball have to do with his lower body mechanics, or the fact that he is often under pressure when making deep throws. But I whole heatedly disagree that Allen is a "thrower of the football" instead of a natural passer.

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I appreciate the analysis, but the way you're approaching this is that Allen is the same as he was when we drafted him and hasn't improved.

 

Is that what you're saying?

 

I believe he's already dramatically improved.

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20 minutes ago, MJS said:

The ball seems to come out of his hand pretty effortlessly to me. I do think he is a natural passer and not just a "thrower of the football".

 

Lamar Jackson is the one to me that seems more like a thrower of the football. The ball comes out awkwardly, to my eyes, and he is almost aiming and thinking about his throws. The ball isn't an extension of his arm yet (or maybe never will be). He gets the jobs done and even makes high level throws on occasion, I just bet it takes him more work than some because he isn't a natural thrower.

 

With Allen, though, it all looks effortless (from the waist up at least). The ball IS an extension of is arm. He doesn't have to think through s throw or aim it, he can just fire. But I do agree that his issues with accuracy on the deep ball have to do with his lower body mechanics, or the fact that he is often under pressure when making deep throws. But I whole heatedly disagree that Allen is a "thrower of the football" instead of a natural passer.

How effortless the ball comes out of his hands isn't a indicator if he is a thrower or passer

 

John elway was a notorious thrower of the football when he came out and not a passer

 

Passing the football is about finesse and touch ... Throwing is about arm strength and threading the Needle

 

There is a difference

 

Allen is a natural spinner of the football that is without question,  but passing is about finesse and touch

 

Edited by Buffalo716
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17 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

I appreciate the analysis, but the way you're approaching this is that Allen is the same as he was when we drafted him and hasn't improved.

 

Is that what you're saying?

 

I believe he's already dramatically improved.

No not at all. I think he's improved 10 fold and I'm super excited about his progress

 

My point was how he still is a better thrower than passer right now and that's ok. He has a cannon that he hasn't fully reigned in yet and the difference is key

 

Throwers throw strikes, frozen ropes majority

 

Passers have innate touch 

 

Both can be effective and both play the game differently. And both can work on weaknesses

 

Allens deep trajectory is off because he is a thrower 

Edited by Buffalo716
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4 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

No not at all. I think he's improved 10 fold and I'm super excited about his progress

 

My point was how he still is a better thrower than passer right now and that's ok. He has a cannon that he hasn't fully reigned in yet and the difference is key

 

Throwers throw strikes, frozen ropes majority

 

Passers have innate touch 

 

Both can be effective and both play the game differently. And both can work on weaknesses

 

Allens deep trajectory is off because he is a thrower naturally


i think you did a great analysis in your OP actually. And you did acknowledge his improvement. Short and intermediate routes, especially over the middle (the in-crossers and digs to beasley and brown most notably) Allen has been pretty much lights out. What is wrong with his passes when guys get behind the defense I am not sure, but you make strong points as to the problem. Good stuff 👍

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Just now, JoPoy88 said:


i think you did a great analysis in your OP actually. And you did acknowledge his improvement. Short and intermediate routes, especially over the middle (the in-crossers and digs to beasley and brown most notably) Allen has been pretty much lights out. What is wrong with his passes when guys get behind the defense I am not sure, but you make strong points as to the problem. Good stuff 👍

I don't think I'm fool proof but I've spent my whole life as a player, scout and coach  and football really is my life and passion

 

I think Allen is great and I'm so excited about the future and he just needed room to grow correctly

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I decided to not say anything on the forums about Josh after the Ravens game. I know it is just one game but the result left me feeling a bit negative about him. That fumble was costly. 

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20 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

How effortless the ball comes out of his hands isn't a indicator if he is a thrower or passer

 

John elway was a notorious thrower of the football when he came out and not a passer

 

Passing the football is about finesse and touch ... Throwing is about arm strength and threading the Needle

 

There is a difference

 

Allen is a natural spinner of the football that is without question,  but passing is about finesse and touch

 

I disagree with your definitions.

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4 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I don't think I'm fool proof but I've spent my whole life as a player, scout and coach  and football really is my life and passion

 

I think Allen is great and I'm so excited about the future and he just needed room to grow correctly


right on and thanks again. I am one of probably many who’s a bit infuriated with all of Allen’s misses deep this year, but I still recognize the strides he’s made in other parts of his game. 

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2 minutes ago, Lfod said:

I decided to not say anything on the forums about Josh after the Ravens game. I know it is just one game but the result left me feeling a bit negative about him. That fumble was costly. 

 

VERY costly. Leaving a rookie TE on an island like that is not really on the QB. 

 

I think Josh gets better year to year, week to week and half to half. Not a straight line by any means, but I like the progress. Sure, he’s struggled against the best defenses. So have most teams. Just keep growing! 

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1 minute ago, MJS said:

I disagree with your definitions.

You can and everybody has different definitions but when scouts talk about throwers vs passers that is what they mean

 

Every scout I have ever talked to classifies Allen as a thrower which isn't a bad thing in the long run

 

He can throw a football better than most alive

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40 minutes ago, Lfod said:

I decided to not say anything on the forums about Josh after the Ravens game. I know it is just one game but the result left me feeling a bit negative about him. That fumble was costly. 

TE left to block the LB is a bad match up the LB wins 99.9% of the time it's the same with a TE vs DE I still do not get why teams do this.  It was also a backside (blind) hit on him and that will happen at times so I'm not going to dog on him too bad 

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40 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I don't think I'm fool proof but I've spent my whole life as a player, scout and coach  and football really is my life and passion

 

I think Allen is great and I'm so excited about the future and he just needed room to grow correctly

I watched a montage of his misses after the game, and noticed the same thing about his mechanics. On those deep balls, he just uses his upper body and flicks the ball. I have to assume the coaches are working with him on that.

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3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

To your point.....elsewhere I posted a screen capture of Josh's deep completion to John Brown in the Miami game.  Guess what, you see a fairly textbook passing motion.

In contrast, the three unsuccessful deep throws at the start of the Ravens game were exactly as you describe - although to be fair to Josh, if he'd have stepped into his throw I think he would have brought the ball within reach of a rusher's arm and/or had Spain pushed into his leg in two of them.  In the third, he was throwing on the run without time to reset.

 

I think he gets it when he has time and space....it just isn't engrained enough to work under pressure yet.

 

 

I was thinking about this very thing earlier while watching some various highlights... why don’t we do play action boots with Brown or Foster streaking the other way to get josh out of the mire and set propels for one of these shots? All of his deep passes come when he’s in the pocket and he rarely has room to step into his throw and plant his feet.

 

 

It’s hard not to look at Josh’s body of work and be encouraged with how much he has improved and grown, while considering that he can continue to do so. Another offseason with Jordan Palmer and he might be killing the deep shots.

Edited by whatdrought

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@MJS

 

https://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2018jallen.php

"They also thought my analogy of him being like a young pitcher called up to the big leagues who is more of a hard thrower than a pitcher was accurate"

 

 

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/josh-allen?id=3219414c-4c52-9264-bedc-c4ddaf201fe7

 

"Fastball pitcher whose touch could use improvement short"

 

"Would benefit by trading some velocity for better timing"

 

While none of these explicitly state he's a thrower vs passer , hard thrower vs pitcher is brought up which is exactly how I described it...also fastball pitcher who could use touch...  this is exactly what I stated that they are referencing

 

 

Edited by Buffalo716
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