John Warrow’s High Praise For Beane & McDermott Regime

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

12 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I should bring up the Mike Gillisee and Tyrod Taylor threads...lots of great takes from Scott in there.

 

It's a tough way to live being that dumb

[PrimeTime101]

Edited June 5, 2019 by PrimeTime101

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, PrimeTime101 said:

 

Just right click, copy image and paste it.  The GIF will show up that way.

[PrimeTime101]

yea I got it

 

[GunnerBill]

47 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

At the time, it was widely known that Benjamin was a fat toad in a league trending towards speed and versatility, and that the team that drafted him was ready to cut ties.  What else was there to know?  It was a horrible trade both in its strategy and its outcome.

 

It was a gamble by a team who had shorn itself of WRs, had seen Jordan Matthews get hurt and suddenly found themselves unexpectedly in a playoff hunt and were desperate. Everyone knew Benjamin had chucked it in. They were gambling on a change of scenery re-motivating him. But it was a big gamble from the off and I think the overpaid.  

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It was a gamble by a team who had shorn itself of WRs, had seen Jordan Matthews get hurt and suddenly found themselves unexpectedly in a playoff hunt and were desperate. Everyone knew Benjamin had chucked it in. They were gambling on a change of scenery re-motivating him. But it was a big gamble from the off and I think the overpaid.  

 

That's what I took it as too.  Reconfirmed after his interview if he had a better QB and his awkward exchange with Cam in the preseason.

[Coach Tuesday]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It was a gamble by a team who had shorn itself of WRs, had seen Jordan Matthews get hurt and suddenly found themselves unexpectedly in a playoff hunt and were desperate. Everyone knew Benjamin had chucked it in. They were gambling on a change of scenery re-motivating him. But it was a big gamble from the off and I think the overpaid.  

 

Agreed - but again, if you're going to gamble, at least use your dice roll on a guy whose skill set matches the modern game.  Gambling in the Age of Offense that a 6'5'' plodding WR will suddenly rediscover his love for the game is simply... idiotic.

[BADOLBILZ]

20 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I should bring up the Mike Gillisee and Tyrod Taylor threads...lots of great takes from Scott in there.

 

 

The fact that those are at all considered "hindsight wins" from an apologist perspective really speaks more to how effective Anthony Lynn was with a banged up WR corps in 2016 than anything.

 

I don't think there was ANYONE here who thought that Taylor was a long term QB solution or that Gillislee was an every down force waiting to happen.

 

The bottom line is that Bills offense has gone from excellent to gawd-awful under McDermott.

 

 Mike Tolbert and Chris Ivory were laughingstock level producing #2 RB's.......McCoy has been way under league average per carry for two years after averaging 5.4 under Lynn.......Dennison and Castillo got canned already and Culley nudged out the door.....and when McD replaced Taylor with Peterman.........wha' happint?? KTFO.   Oh and AJ McCarron!

 

Suffice to say large mistakes have been made on that side of the football by McD and Beane.

 

The tangible success of the McDermott regime has been almost entirely on the defensive side of the ball so far.

 

 So maybe look up the people who were outraged at the Zach Brown departure?   Gilmore and Darby got rings now so probably don't want to go down that hole.    Though I like Harrison Phillips(who Bills got with Darby pick) and hope he steps up and pushes Lotulelei(another Whaley gem?) to the curb.

 

 

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

The bottom line is that Bills offense has gone from excellent to gawd-awful under McDermott.

 

When the hell was the last time the Bills' offense was excellent?

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The fact that those are at all considered "hindsight wins" from an apologist perspective really speaks more to how effective Anthony Lynn was with a banged up WR corps in 2016 than anything.

 

I don't think there was ANYONE here who thought that Taylor was a long term QB solution or that Gillislee was an every down force waiting to happen.

 

The bottom line is that Bills offense has gone from excellent to gawd-awful under McDermott.

 

 Mike Tolbert and Chris Ivory were laughingstock level producing #2 RB's.......McCoy has been way under league average per carry for two years after averaging 5.4 under Lynn.......Dennison and Castillo got canned already and Culley nudged out the door.....and when McD replaced Taylor with Peterman.........wha' happint?? KTFO.   Oh and AJ McCarron!

 

Suffice to say large mistakes have been made on that side of the football by McD and Beane.

 

The tangible success of the McDermott regime has been almost entirely on the defensive side of the ball so far.

 

 So maybe look up the people who were outraged at the Zach Brown departure?   Gilmore and Darby got rings now so probably don't want to go down that hole.    Though I like Harrison Phillips(who Bills got with Darby pick) and hope he steps up and pushes Lotulelei(another Whaley gem?) to the curb.

 

 

 

Oh there was a few Baldo who thought Taylor was a franchise QB.  Most didn't but there were a few.  I remember several "Keep Taylor, build a lot of talent around him" posts.

 

I was a Gilmore fan and wanted to keep him.  I defended him all the time.  

I'm not a fan of the ring argument though.  Yeah Darby has one but so do a lot players at all levels of production.  

[BADOLBILZ]

6 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Oh there was a few Baldo who thought Taylor was a franchise QB.  Most didn't but there were a few.  I remember several "Keep Taylor, build a lot of talent around him" posts.

 

I was a Gilmore fan and wanted to keep him.  I defended him all the time.  

I'm not a fan of the ring argument though.  Yeah Darby has one but so do a lot players at all levels of production.  

 

 

Well Scott wasn't one of those,  which is what you implied.

 

Citing "I'd rather not get rid of a good rotational RB or a bridge QB" as egregious judgement mistakes only emphasizes how little has gone right to date.

 

As for the ring point I was just short-cutting to the fact that they were excellent players for SB winning teams........which you know.  

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Well Scott wasn't one of those,  which is what you implied.

 

Citing "I'd rather not get rid of a good rotational RB or a bridge QB" as egregious judgement mistakes only emphasizes how little has gone right to date.

 

As for the ring point I was just short-cutting to the fact that they were excellent players for SB winning teams........which you know.  

 

I really wasn’t trying to imply that.  I just brought that up because Scott constantly rip into others who ripped into Tyrod.  He once told me Tyrod was going to make me look like an idiot while in Cleveland.

 

Darby is a good corner.  However I do believe his biggest issue is tracking the ball in the air.  He’s a great man to man cover guy but would struggle in zone....which is the defense we now run.  

[BADOLBILZ]

25 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

When the hell was the last time the Bills' offense was excellent?

 

 

They were 7th in the NFL in scoring with the fewest turnovers ever thru 15 games in 2016.    

 

And they had just produced a franchise record for offensive yardage in a game.    

 

They were in the process of completing their second season of leading the NFL in rushing and also in big plays.......with over 100 both years.    

 

The Bills have been notoriously awful on offense for most of a couple decades now.........a situation that's only worsened so far under McDermott........at points they were "the worst NFL offense since the merger" thru that time of the 2018 season in certain categories.    

 

The Lynn offense in 2016 was the Bills most productive offense since the middle of the SB era..............not the greatest show on turf.........but very productive.    The defense was brutal.......ranking near the bottom in DVOA both of RR's seasons. 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

15 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I really wasn’t trying to imply that.  .  He once told me Tyrod was going to make me look like an idiot while in Cleveland.  I just brought that up because Scott constantly rip into others who ripped into Tyrod.

 

Darby is a good corner.  However I do believe his biggest issue is tracking the ball in the air.  He’s a great man to man cover guy but would struggle in zone....which is the defense we now run.  

 

I am sure he meant it in the "you guys are idiots if you think AJ McCarron will do better in Buffalo than Tyrod Taylor did" kinda' sense.?

 

Lest we forget there were a lot of those folks too.

 

I guess my point is that McBeane have made A TON of errors while other "2016 mediocre/bad" teams have had huge tangible success using other approaches.

 

The only reason the torches and pitchforks aren't outside heading into 2019 season is Josh Allen.

 

That dude is a beacon of hope that is covering up a whole lotta' growing pains for a first time HC/GM combo.

 

[Royale with Cheese]

11 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I am sure he meant it in the "you guys are idiots if you think AJ McCarron will do better in Buffalo than Tyrod Taylor did" kinda' sense.?

 

Lest we forget there were a lot of those folks too.

 

I guess my point is that McBeane have made A TON of errors while other "2016 mediocre/bad" teams have had huge tangible success using other approaches.

 

The only reason the torches and pitchforks aren't outside heading into 2019 season is Josh Allen.

 

That dude is a beacon of hope that is covering up a whole lotta' growing pains for a first time HC/GM combo.

 

 

That's why I haven't been as pessimistic as others have been.  I am operating under the "can't make an omelette without breaking a couple eggs" philosophy with this regime.  We'll see if the omelette turns out to be a good one from a quality breakfast place or a terrible on from a Motel 6 that's been sitting under a heat lamp for hours.

[eball]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I guess my point is that McBeane have made A TON of errors while other "2016 mediocre/bad" teams have had huge tangible success using other approaches.

 

The only reason the torches and pitchforks aren't outside heading into 2019 season is Josh Allen.

 

That dude is a beacon of hope that is covering up a whole lotta' growing pains for a first time HC/GM combo.

 

 

If every other NFL GM and HC was scrutinized and nitpicked to death the way you have done to Beane and McD, I'm sure you'd find "a TON of errors" there as well.  It's a business in which the GM "hopes" to be right 50% of the time.  And if you're calling Josh Allen the beacon of hope, you could at least give Beane credit for maneuvering to get him.

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

They were 7th in the NFL in scoring with the fewest turnovers ever thru 15 games in 2016.    

 

And they had just produced a franchise record for offensive yardage in a game.    

 

They were in the process of completing their second season of leading the NFL in rushing and also in big plays.......with over 100 both years.    

 

The Bills have been notoriously awful on offense for most of a couple decades now.........a situation that's only worsened so far under McDermott........at points they were "the worst NFL offense since the merger" thru that time of the 2018 season in certain categories.    

 

The Lynn offense in 2016 was the Bills most productive offense since the middle of the SB era..............not the greatest show on turf.........but very productive.    The defense was brutal.......ranking near the bottom in DVOA both of RR's seasons. 

 

Bado 

 

I gotta say, I think you really overstate the case, but the more of this I read, the more I tend to see your point.   I would say this, however:

 

There were very few people, myself included, who believed the Bills had a good offense in 2016, the stats notwithstanding.   Taylor didn't do anything close to his 2015 season in 2016.   His 2015 numbers, except for his passes attempted, compared favorably to the best in the league.  In 2016 he looked like a journeyman, and there were big questions about whether he was worth keeping around for 2017.   

 

And ultimately I come back to this:  McBeane are rebuilding, completely.   They are installing their system with their kind of coaches and their kind of players.   That includes (1) making mistakes and (2) letting talent go that doesn't fit their system.   Mistakes make everyone look bad, if all you look at are the mistakes.  And everyone lets go of players that don't fit their system.   Colts gave up on Jerry Hughes.   

 

I'm on record.  I think McBeane are going to great places with the team they're building.   The fact that someone may think the Benjamin trade was a mistake, or the Darby trade, or whatever, is irrelevant in the long-term history of a successful team.   Each of those trades made sense to them at the time in the context of what they were doing, in exactly the same way that the trades up for Allen made sense in that context.   It's not a perfect, and reaching conclusions solely on the basis of how the imperfect things look isn't a fair evaluation.  

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

That's why I haven't been as pessimistic as others have been.  I am operating under the "can't make an omelette without breaking a couple eggs" philosophy with this regime.  We'll see if the omelette turns out to be a good one from a quality breakfast place or a terrible on from a Motel 6 that's been sitting under a heat lamp for hours.

 

 

As myself and most of the other renowned "pessimists" on this board will surely say............the best thing about McDermott and Beane is that they have shown an ability to pivot off of their mistakes and not double down on them.

 

That and of course being the first Bills regime since 1960 to ever be all-in on a college QB on draft day.   LOVE that.   

 

I'm not giving up on them but so far just about everything they've done that I didn't like at the time has proven to be a mistake........and that has never worked out well wrt the management groups of any of the teams that I've followed.    Pleasant surprises typically abound with championship level management in place.   

[Delete This Account]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The fact that those are at all considered "hindsight wins" from an apologist perspective really speaks more to how effective Anthony Lynn was with a banged up WR corps in 2016 than anything.

 

I don't think there was ANYONE here who thought that Taylor was a long term QB solution or that Gillislee was an every down force waiting to happen.

 

The bottom line is that Bills offense has gone from excellent to gawd-awful under McDermott.

 

 Mike Tolbert and Chris Ivory were laughingstock level producing #2 RB's.......McCoy has been way under league average per carry for two years after averaging 5.4 under Lynn.......Dennison and Castillo got canned already and Culley nudged out the door.....and when McD replaced Taylor with Peterman.........wha' happint?? KTFO.   Oh and AJ McCarron!

 

Suffice to say large mistakes have been made on that side of the football by McD and Beane.

 

The tangible success of the McDermott regime has been almost entirely on the defensive side of the ball so far.

 

 So maybe look up the people who were outraged at the Zach Brown departure?   Gilmore and Darby got rings now so probably don't want to go down that hole.    Though I like Harrison Phillips(who Bills got with Darby pick) and hope he steps up and pushes Lotulelei(another Whaley gem?) to the curb.

 

 

 

ok. here's how i really can't take you seriously.

it's this suggestion that the "bills offense has gone from excellent to gawd-awful under McDermott."

 

you say this with a straight face?

 

the bills, only by virtue of LeSean McCoy, Eric Wood and Richie Incognito -- and a one-dimensional, running quarterback -- ranked 11th and 16th overall in net yards offense under Rex Ryan. but it had very little to do with passing. the bills ranked 27th and 30th behind the tyrod, and that's with a far more talented receiving core than what the team's had under McDermott.

 

oh, we can even go back to the magnificent Orton era, when the Bills finished 18th in yards passing and 26th in total yards.

what is this offensive juggernaut that you speak of that preceded McDermott. where were these receivers which during everyone's fantasy draft clamored they wanted to pick in the first round? pray tell, how often bills fans -- not you, of course -- celebrated 100 yard receiving games, 1,200 yard receiving seasons, and Tyrod firmly entrenched in teh 4,000-yard, 35-TD a season club.

 

you bring up Mike Tolbert and Chris Ivory, i'll counter with the unstoppable three-headed monster of Fred Jackson and Anthony Dixon and CJ Spiller in 2014 that inspired fear in every D-line they encountered. that was the year Hogan, who once played lacrosse, essentially clinched his spot on the wall of fame with 41 catches for 426 yards and a whopping total of four tds,

or how about we refer to the 2016 season, when Charles Clay led the team with 57 catches. and let's not forget Walt Powell. well, ok, let's.

 

however you want to put it, it's evidently clear how these Bills have certainly regressed.

 

oh, where have you gone Leonard Hankerson?

 

jw

 

 

 

 

 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

6 minutes ago, john wawrow said:

 

ok. here's how i really can't take you seriously.

it's this suggestion that the "bills offense has gone from excellent to gawd-awful under McDermott."

 

you say this with a straight face?

 

the bills, only by virtue of LeSean McCoy, Eric Wood and Richie Incognito -- and a one-dimensional, running quarterback -- ranked 11th and 16th overall in net yards offense under Rex Ryan. but it had very little to do with passing. the bills ranked 27th and 30th behind the tyrod, and that's with a far more talented receiving core than what the team's had under McDermott.

 

oh, we can even go back to the magnificent Orton era, when the Bills finished 18th in yards passing and 26th in total yards.

what is this offensive juggernaut that you speak of that preceded McDermott. where were these receivers which during everyone's fantasy draft clamored they wanted to pick in the first round? pray tell, how often bills fans -- not you, of course -- celebrated 100 yard receiving games, 1,200 yard receiving seasons, and Tyrod firmly entrenched in teh 4,000-yard, 35-TD a season club.

 

you bring up Mike Tolbert and Chris Ivory, i'll counter with the unstoppable three-headed monster of Fred Jackson and Anthony Dixon and CJ Spiller in 2014 that inspired fear in every D-line they encountered. that was the year Hogan, who once played lacrosse, essentially clinched his spot on the wall of fame with 41 catches for 426 yards and a whopping total of four tds,

or how about we refer to the 2016 season, when Charles Clay led the team with 57 catches. and let's not forget Walt Powell. well, ok, let's.

 

however you want to put it, it's evidently clear how these Bills have certainly regressed.

 

oh, where have you gone Leonard Hankerson?

 

jw

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...nice assessment JW......unfortunately regarding Bflo "offense", lethargy comes to mind LONG BEFORE juggernaut, certainly pre-dating McDermott and possibly back to the Dopey Dickie Jauron Era....."passing game" and "Blfo" do NOT even belong in the same damn sentence.......we have an organization, run by football people, and coached by a 1st time HC who follows his mission statement...helluva lot better than yesteryer.....then agin, we have a selct few here who can make the negative terminal on my effin' car battery look positive...SMH.......masochism.....