Democratic 2020 Presidential Primary Thread

[jrober38]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

What? So the government is not only going to give me the drugs but they’re also going to make them? This is the nonsense of the left. Private companies, while indeed are in business to make a profit, cannot charge whatever they want for their goods and services. They’re in competition with other companies! It’s that very competition that keeps prices in check. Get rid of that and prices will skyrocket. Only the government pays $500 for a hammer!

 

The US has the highest drug prices in the developed world by a huge margin.

1 hour ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

Because being forced to supplement your wages as an MD by pimping for Big Pharma is not fraught with pitfalls.

 

Again, it's not an issue in Canada. Or the UK, Australia, France, Japan, etc, etc, etc. 

 

The system you're terrified of works great all over the developed world, where healthcare is usually better, people live longer, and it all costs a fraction of what it costs in the United States. 

Edited September 18, 2019 by jrober38

[Deranged Rhino]

11 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

 

Again, it's not an issue in Canada. Or the UK, Australia, France, Japan, etc, etc, etc. 

 

 

 

It is an issue there. 

 

Big Pharma is global — not just located here in the US. 

[3rdnlng]

13 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

The US has the highest drug prices in the developed world by a huge margin.

 

Again, it's not an issue in Canada. Or the UK, Australia, France, Japan, etc, etc, etc. 

 

The system you're terrified of works great all over the developed world, where healthcare is usually better, people live longer, and it all costs a fraction of what it costs in the United States. 

Why?

[jrober38]

1 minute ago, 3rdnlng said:

Why?

 

Because it's the only developed country where the government doesn't cap what companies can charge for medication. 

 

Bernie Sanders has gone over this numerous times, most recently going to Windsor, ON with a bunch of diabetics to buy insulin for $30, that would cost them something stupid like $800 in the US. 

[snafu]

1 hour ago, jrober38 said:

By almost every analysis that tracks quality of health care by country. 

 

In some rankings Canadian healthcare is ranked higher than American health care. 

 

Until it is EVERY ranking 100% of the time, this isn't an argument.

 

1 hour ago, jrober38 said:

When you eliminate private insurance companies and take away the middle man whose goal is to make a profit, costs obviously go down because you're doing things at cost as opposed to cost plus a mark up to pay shareholders. 

 

When you eliminate the middle man and replace the middle man with the U.S. Government, then replace the word "profit" and replace it with "waste and incompetence".

 

1 hour ago, jrober38 said:

Canadian Doctors still make a ton of money, and they can supplement their income substantially by giving speeches or endorsing pharmaceutical products.  

 

So what you're saying is that once someone's income is capped, they can go out and get a second job to supplement the loss in income?

 

 

[3rdnlng]

2 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

Because it's the only developed country where the government doesn't cap what companies can charge for medication. 

 

Bernie Sanders has gone over this numerous times, most recently going to Windsor, ON with a bunch of diabetics to buy insulin for $30, that would cost them something stupid like $800 in the US. 

Who pays for all the research and development involved in creating new drugs?

[jrober38]

1 minute ago, snafu said:

 

Until it is EVERY ranking 100% of the time, this isn't an argument.

 

 

When you eliminate the middle man and replace the middle man with the U.S. Government, then replace the word "profit" and replace it with "waste and incompetence".

 

 

So what you're saying is that once someone's income is capped, they can go out and get a second job to supplement the loss in income?

 

 

 

They'll be alright. As of 2014, the average Family Doctor in Canada makes $271,000 per year, and the average surgeon makes $446,000.

 

These people aren't capped at making minimum wage. 

 

Also, despite the inefficiency of big government, socialized healthcare around the world in most developed countries costs about half as much per capita as it does in the US. Even with all that waste, when you replace the insurance industry you save massive of amounts of money per person. 

6 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

Who pays for all the research and development involved in creating new drugs?

 

A combination of government and corporations.

 

When the government foots the bill, their focus is generally on preventing sickness vs treating it, which is what the American system is based around.

 

The US system is designed to treat sick people because once they get sick that's when the industry makes it's money.

 

The health industry in places like Canada, France, the UK, etc, doesn't want you getting sick in the first place. 

[3rdnlng]

3 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

They'll be alright. As of 2014, the average Family Doctor in Canada makes $271,000 per year, and the average surgeon makes $446,000.

 

These people aren't capped at making minimum wage. 

 

Also, despite the inefficiency of big government, socialized healthcare around the world in most developed countries costs about half as much per capita as it does in the US. Even with all that waste, when you replace the insurance industry you save massive of amounts of money per person. 

 

A combination of government and corporations.

 

When the government foots the bill, their focus is generally on preventing sickness vs treating it, which is what the American system is based around.

 

The US system is designed to treat sick people because once they get sick that's when the industry makes it's money.

 

The health industry in places like Canada, France, the UK, etc, doesn't want you getting sick in the first place. 

Do you have any links to back up your claims?

[jrober38]

4 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

Do you have any links to back up your claims?

 

Cost of healthcare per capita:

 

US - $9,892 per year

Canada - $4753 per year

 

Doctor earnings.

Earnings by province.

 

US healthcare is a disaster. It's by far the most expensive in the world, and there are no metrics that actually rank it as being the best. In many cases it ranks outside the top 10. 

Edited September 18, 2019 by jrober38

[snafu]

6 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

Also, despite the inefficiency of big government, socialized healthcare around the world in most developed countries costs about half as much per capita as it does in the US

 

I don't know about the inefficiency of other countries' big governments.  I would wager that my country's big government would fail at this in a big big way.  And you hit on the real problem that should have been addressed back when Obama was making the ACA:  the cost of healthcare is more important than the insurance coverage.  

 

 

[jrober38]

Just now, snafu said:

 

I don't know about the inefficiency of other countries' big governments.  I would wager that my country's big government would fail at this in a big big way.  And you hit on the real problem that should have been addressed back when Obama was making the ACA:  the cost of healthcare is more important than the insurance coverage.  

 

 

 

The fact that insurance is involved is why it's so expensive.

 

The ACA forced insurance companies to cover the uninsurable, and to make the system worked they raised the rates of all their customers (similar to what auto insurers do) to keep their business model profitable.

 

The key to keeping healthcare costs, or really any cost down is very simple. Eliminate the middle man.

[DC Tom]

47 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

The fact that insurance is involved is why it's so expensive.

 

The ACA forced insurance companies to cover the uninsurable, and to make the system worked they raised the rates of all their customers (similar to what auto insurers do) to keep their business model profitable.

 

The key to keeping healthcare costs, or really any cost down is very simple. Eliminate the middle man.

 

You have a significant "definition" problem.  

[snafu]

1 hour ago, jrober38 said:

 

The fact that insurance is involved is why it's so expensive.

 

The ACA forced insurance companies to cover the uninsurable, and to make the system worked they raised the rates of all their customers (similar to what auto insurers do) to keep their business model profitable.

 

The key to keeping healthcare costs, or really any cost down is very simple. Eliminate the middle man.

 

The cost of administering health care is almost completely independent from insurance premiums.

Socialized medicine doesn’t cut out the middle man. The middle man gets replaced by the government. 

 

[B-Man]

 

SHE REALLY IS HILLARY 2.0, ISN’T SHE?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[3rdnlng]

7 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

SHE REALLY IS HILLARY 2.0, ISN’T SHE?

 

 

 

 

 

 

They've learned to produce their own sperm?

[Joe Miner]

7 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

SHE REALLY IS HILLARY 2.0, ISN’T SHE?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Really?

 

Who drove them then?

[DC Tom]

10 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

SHE REALLY IS HILLARY 2.0, ISN’T SHE?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You didn't build that, Warren, somebody else made it happen.

[GG]

16 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

The fact that insurance is involved is why it's so expensive.

 

The ACA forced insurance companies to cover the uninsurable, and to make the system worked they raised the rates of all their customers (similar to what auto insurers do) to keep their business model profitable.

 

The key to keeping healthcare costs, or really any cost down is very simple. Eliminate the middle man.

 

Are you telling me that a $2.4k hospital bill that I recently received for a 45 minute visit is the fault of the insurance companies?

[3rdnlng]

1 minute ago, GG said:

 

Are you telling me that a $2.4k hospital bill that I recently received for a 45 minute visit is the fault of the insurance companies?

More than likely that bill was given to you so that they could make up for the 5 ER visits by illegal liens or otherwise uninsured people who will never pay a dime.

[RochesterRob]

2 hours ago, Joe Miner said:

 

 

Really?

 

Who drove them then?

  "We're not here because of men at all."  What?  Did she not take high school biology?  Last I knew was that mammals needed to pair up..........  

[jrober38]

16 hours ago, snafu said:

 

The cost of administering health care is almost completely independent from insurance premiums.

Socialized medicine doesn’t cut out the middle man. The middle man gets replaced by the government. 

 

 

One operates for profit, the other doesn't.

 

That's literally the reason Americans pay more than anyone else in the world for healthcare. 

1 hour ago, GG said:

 

Are you telling me that a $2.4k hospital bill that I recently received for a 45 minute visit is the fault of the insurance companies?

 

Yes. 

 

No other country in the world pays anywhere close to as much for healthcare as the US. All those other countries have universal healthcare. 

[GG]

3 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

One operates for profit, the other doesn't.

 

That's literally the reason Americans pay more than anyone else in the world for healthcare. 

 

Yes. 

 

No other country in the world pays anywhere close to as much for healthcare as the US. All those other countries have universal healthcare. 

Explain how the bill I received from the hospital relates to the insurance company and how the insurance company is responsible for the bill from the hospital.  

[jrober38]

4 minutes ago, GG said:

Explain how the bill I received from the hospital relates to the insurance company and how the insurance company is responsible for the bill from the hospital.  

 

The US is the only developed country where you get a bill. 

Everywhere else, if you go to a hospital, you're taken care of. No bills, no deductables, no copays. All for a fraction of the cost of US healthcare. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by jrober38

[BuffaloHokie13]

2 minutes ago, GG said:

Explain how the bill I received from the hospital relates to the insurance company and how the insurance company is responsible for the bill from the hospital.  

Isn't the general thought that hospitals price gouge and overcharge because insurance is covering a ton of it? I thought that was why if you told them you aren't insured they will eliminate many of the fees and discount some of the other items.

[Buffalo_Gal]

Just now, jrober38 said:

 

The US is the only developed country where you get a bill. 

Everywhere else, if you go to a hospital, you're taken care of. No bills involved to you. 

 

You get a bill every time your purchase something in every other developed country... VAT taxes. Healthcare coverage is not free, regardless of how you (or anyone else) wants to spin it. You pay and pay and pay daily possibly never using what you are paying for with a "government insurance program", or you pay an insurance bill or doctor or hospital bill based on usage.

 

[jrober38]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

 

You get a bill every time your purchase something in every other developed country... VAT taxes. Healthcare coverage is not free, regardless of how you (or anyone else) wants to spin it. You pay and pay and pay daily possibly never using what you are paying for with a "government insurance program", or you pay an insurance bill or doctor or hospital bill based on usage.

 

 

When did I say it was free?

 

I said it costs a fraction of what it costs in the US.

 

Healthcare is literally something everyone will use at some point of their life. The system works all over the world, and in most developed countries healthcare is better, and much more affordable than in the US, who has the highest cost per capita in the world. In no other country can you go bankrupt because you got sick. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by jrober38

[Buffalo_Gal]

4 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

When did I say it was free?

 

I said it costs a fraction of what it costs in the US.

 

Healthcare is literally something everyone will use at some point of their life. The system works all over the world, and in most developed countries healthcare is better, and much more affordable than in the US, who has the highest cost per capita in the world. In no other country can you go bankrupt because you got sick. 

 

Tell that to the Canadian peeps sitting in the waiting rooms in the Buffalo area. Those people will eventually get reimbursed, but they have to pay the doctors, hospitals, etc in the US. Which means they need the cash to get the treatment in the US in order to not have to deal with the long waits for surgery or treatment in Canada. 

 

I think if you breakdown down the costs of US vs socialized medicine, you will be able to lay a lot of the increased cost at Big Pharmas feet.

[jrober38]

Just now, Buffalo_Gal said:

 

Tell that to the Canadian peeps sitting in the waiting rooms in the Buffalo area. Those people will eventually get reimbursed, but they have to pay the doctors, hospitals, etc in the US. Which means they need the cash to get the treatment in the US in order to not have to deal with the long waits for surgery or treatment in Canada. 

 

I think if you breakdown down the costs of US vs socialized medicine, you will be able to lay a lot of the increased cost at Big Pharmas feet.

 

This is for elective surgery. 

 

If your life is in danger, you're taken care of immediately in Canada. 

[snafu]

1 hour ago, jrober38 said:

One operates for profit, the other doesn't.

 

That's literally the reason Americans pay more than anyone else in the world for healthcare. 

 

Privately run healthcare is theoretically streamlined and efficient because of competition. In a practical sense, the problems are systemic and actually can be identified and addressed.  Nobody seems to focus on fixing the cost of healthcare.  The fixation is on health insurance providers and premiums (which has its own systemic problems).  Turning over all of those problems to the U.S. Government to fix them and make them magically disappear is not a good idea.  The federal government is inefficient, bloated, and incapable of providing the same service at a lower cost. Nobody compliments medicaid.  Nobody raves about medicare.  Nobody thinks the VA is well run.

 

The first Democratic Debates a few months ago illustrated the fact that each candidate (except perhaps Sanders) pushing for universal health insurance either (a) said that the tax increase to fund the program will be offset by the fact that individuals wouldn't have to pay insurance premiums.  Nobody said that the tax increase would be lower than the premiums not paid.  Nobody described how the taxes would be fairly implemented, or (b) they refused to answer the question because an honest answer would have torpedoed their campaign.  Bottom line is that there will be NO savings to anyone.  It's a B.S. shell game.  The only way to reduce the cost in a government-run system is to implement strict price controls -- which at a minimum would  probably mean hospital bailouts paid for by taxpayers.

 

And, yes, I'd rather see an itemized health care bill than see an un-itemized tax bill.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by snafu

[GG]

1 hour ago, jrober38 said:

 

The US is the only developed country where you get a bill. 

Everywhere else, if you go to a hospital, you're taken care of. No bills, no deductables, no copays. All for a fraction of the cost of US healthcare. 

 

How is it the insurance companies' issue that you get a bill in the US?  Especially if you don't have insurance?

[DC Tom]

1 hour ago, jrober38 said:

 

When did I say it was free?

 

I said it costs a fraction of what it costs in the US.

 

 

You say that as though medical patients don't pay taxes.  

[IDBillzFan]

3 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

The US is the only developed country where you get a bill. 

Everywhere else, if you go to a hospital, you're taken care of. No bills, no deductables, no copays. All for a fraction of the cost of US healthcare. 

 

Oh, so it's free?

 

Cool.

[3rdnlng]

4 hours ago, snafu said:

 

Privately run healthcare is theoretically streamlined and efficient because of competition. In a practical sense, the problems are systemic and actually can be identified and addressed.  Nobody seems to focus on fixing the cost of healthcare.  The fixation is on health insurance providers and premiums (which has its own systemic problems).  Turning over all of those problems to the U.S. Government to fix them and make them magically disappear is not a good idea.  The federal government is inefficient, bloated, and incapable of providing the same service at a lower cost. Nobody compliments medicaid.  Nobody raves about medicare.  Nobody thinks the VA is well run.

 

The first Democratic Debates a few months ago illustrated the fact that each candidate (except perhaps Sanders) pushing for universal health insurance either (a) said that the tax increase to fund the program will be offset by the fact that individuals wouldn't have to pay insurance premiums.  Nobody said that the tax increase would be lower than the premiums not paid.  Nobody described how the taxes would be fairly implemented, or (b) they refused to answer the question because an honest answer would have torpedoed their campaign.  Bottom line is that there will be NO savings to anyone.  It's a B.S. shell game.  The only way to reduce the cost in a government-run system is to implement strict price controls -- which at a minimum would  probably mean hospital bailouts paid for by taxpayers.

 

And, yes, I'd rather see an itemized health care bill than see an un-itemized tax bill.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's too much of a blanket statement. It depends on each individual VA Hospital. I was there today for a 20 minute acupuncture treatment. I was in and out in less than 40 minutes. I've always been treated well and have no complaints. Phoenix on the other hand...………………………………………………...

[reddogblitz]

On 9/18/2019 at 3:03 PM, snafu said:

 

I don't know about the inefficiency of other countries' big governments.  I would wager that my country's big government would fail at this in a big big way.  And you hit on the real problem that should have been addressed back when Obama was making the ACA:  the cost of healthcare is more important than the insurance coverage.  

 

 

 

Since the ACA passed with all D votes and 0 R votes, the Ds could have done whatever they wanted.  Which is what they did.  Think about that for a minute.

7 hours ago, RochesterRob said:

  "We're not here because of men at all."  What?  Did she not take high school biology?  Last I knew was that mammals needed to pair up..........  

 

The party of science.

[reddogblitz]

4 hours ago, snafu said:

Nobody thinks the VA is well run.

 

I don't know if it's well run or not, but I get a lot of my care at the VA and it's excellent.  And, I don't have to haggle with insurance companies over coverage.  I don't have to wait long for appointments either.  

 

I can only speak to my experience.  Your mileage may vary I suppose.

 

 

 

[B-Man]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[jrober38]

6 hours ago, IDBillzFan said:

 

Oh, so it's free?

 

Cool.

 

I never said it's free.

 

Taxes will obviously go up. 

8 hours ago, snafu said:

 

Privately run healthcare is theoretically streamlined and efficient because of competition. In a practical sense, the problems are systemic and actually can be identified and addressed.  Nobody seems to focus on fixing the cost of healthcare.  The fixation is on health insurance providers and premiums (which has its own systemic problems).  Turning over all of those problems to the U.S. Government to fix them and make them magically disappear is not a good idea.  The federal government is inefficient, bloated, and incapable of providing the same service at a lower cost. Nobody compliments medicaid.  Nobody raves about medicare.  Nobody thinks the VA is well run.

 

The first Democratic Debates a few months ago illustrated the fact that each candidate (except perhaps Sanders) pushing for universal health insurance either (a) said that the tax increase to fund the program will be offset by the fact that individuals wouldn't have to pay insurance premiums.  Nobody said that the tax increase would be lower than the premiums not paid.  Nobody described how the taxes would be fairly implemented, or (b) they refused to answer the question because an honest answer would have torpedoed their campaign.  Bottom line is that there will be NO savings to anyone.  It's a B.S. shell game.  The only way to reduce the cost in a government-run system is to implement strict price controls -- which at a minimum would  probably mean hospital bailouts paid for by taxpayers.

 

And, yes, I'd rather see an itemized health care bill than see an un-itemized tax bill.

 

I don't get how there can be no savings when everyone who uses this model pays considerably less for healthcare than the US. 

[B-Man]

CHIEF WARREN CHEEKBONES WILL PUT A STOP TO THIS: 

 

Government to Scrutinize Contractors Who Claimed ‘Native American’ Ancestry Without Basis.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Deranged Rhino]

 

Sooner or later, both Joe and Sanders have to go on the offensive against her... otherwise it's done. 

[Joe Miner]

29 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

Sooner or later, both Joe and Sanders have to go on the offensive against her... otherwise it's done. 

 

Biden will end up like Custer if he goes against Warren.