Peterman/Allen next Flutie/Johnson... hoping I am wrong

[Buffalo Boy]

For all the people who piss and moan about NPs lack of arm strength, watch some video of Saint Flutie trying to throw a 10 yard out while wearing a Bills uniform ?

[Jerome007]

I am a Bills fan first. I was siding with Flutie big time as I really did think he brought them the best chances to win, had the "it" factor in spades, leadership, sensed the pressure super well, scrambled for 1st downs, etc. Johnson was a physical prototype for QB without delevering the goods except from time to time. But his "glimpses of greatness" didn't erase all his "deer in the headlight" moments... and can't compare to the glimpses we've seen from Allen! Josh seems more poised in and out of the field, have more leadership ability, and well, way more physical ability too. It remains to be seen in real games with more complex defensive schemes how he reacts, reads, adjusts, etc. but so fat so good. I'm excited with Allen, that he might be a "franchise QB". I never got that from Johnson. And then we had the FLUTIE CURSE that it took 17 years to get rid of, with #17 arriving now to take over:) 

[BuffaloHokie13]

11 hours ago, Coach55 said:

Here is my question... what happens if and I say IF, Peterman starts the season and they go 4-1, 5-2, 7-3... what do you do?  What if they make the playoffs 10-6 with Peterman...  What happens?  Everyone is expecting Peterman to come in, start the season and the Bills go 1-4, 2-5 and then Allen comes in and saves the day... but what if???

These are INT-TD numbers, right?

[T master]

12 hours ago, Coach55 said:

For full disclosure, I am not on either side of the fence.  I just want the Bills to win, don't care who his the Quarterback.  With that being said, the QB controversy that currently exists is starting to look like the late 90s all over again.

 

The Players...

 

Johnson - the heir apparent.  Bills make a big trade to get a QB with a huge arm, great mobility who needs development

Allen - the heir apparent.  Bills make a big trade to draft a QB with a huge arm, great mobility who needs development

 

Flutie - the undersized underdog, who plays smart football with a weak arm and makes the weak OLine look good

Peterman - the underdog, who plays smart football with a weak arm and makes the weak OLine look good.

 

The Scenario...

 

As of right now, Peterman (in spite of his crappy rookie season) has won the preseason battle and deserves to start.  I might add, he has played remarkably well.  Allen has struggled, showing glimpses of greatness throughout preseason.  People are already making excuses for Allen (blaming the OLine, who I admit has been weak, but 3 of the 5 sacks against Cincinnati could have easily been avoided had Allen made a quicker decision).  

 

The Issue...

 

Ok.  As of right now, Peterman should start (if he doesn't I would be surprised).  What I am afraid of is - What if he actually succeeds (low probability)?  Let's say he starts 5-2, do we have another late 90s issue where the winning QB is always put on the back burner for the potential of the heir apparent?  

 

Thoughts?  btw, this is all conjecture to stir the pot. 

 

I don't think this will be a controversy although anything is possible !

 

The part about Flutie having a week arm is out the window, sure dude didn't have the gun maybe that Favre had or Rogers but his was a lot stronger than Petermans for sure ! And Peterman is only in his second season he really has no history to this point that proves him to be a winner unlike Flutie did !

 

Then there is the fact that Allen being a 1st rounder is at some point going to be given the reigns & was brought here specifically to be the future of the team Johnson was also brought in because Ralph thought he was some awesome QB which i'm not saying he was a bad one just he didn't have the "IT" factor !

 

I would hope the Peg's would have enough confidence in their hires to do their job & not meddle &  stick to the things they know about that would be a good thing !! 

 

Johnson could have been a starter in the NFL but by his performance after the Bills debacle with him he sure didn't do much with what ever chances he had after .

 

Too given the fact that he may have had a better chance if certain people would have let those they hire to do a job do it the way they see fit he could have had a different out come with his career but because of what happened in B/lo his legacy will be one less thought of than what it could have been !! 

[RyanC883]

10 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Tomczak retired while Roethliberger was still in high school.

 

Do you mean Tommy Maddox? Not a good comparison, IMHO. The Steelers knew who Maddox was. He was an eighth-year man when Roethlisberger was a rookie. And he'd been the Steelers starter for two years.

 

The main thrust, that this team is committed to Allen in the long run seems obvious. There's no reason to think that they are committed to Allen this year. They could easily think that they'd like to sit him for the year if things work out that way, particularly if the teams started with some wins. Maybe even if they don't.

 

I don't see any controversy coming, though. I have a lot of faith in McD to handle the locker room.

 

 

Yeah, Maddox is who I intended to say.  At any rate, it IS a good comparison for the reasons you mentioned.  With the exception of Maddox being an 8 year vet and Peterman being a 2nd year player, I think the coaches are familiar with Peterman by now, and are clearly committed to Allen long-term.   Likely the goal is to let him learn this year, but if he learns faster than anticipated, or an injury happens, or Peterman is terrible, they play him right away.  

 

At any rate, just like the Steeler situation, Allen is the guy and will get his shot.  There will not be a controversy.  (and I like Peterman, Allen is just a freak ).  

[thebandit27]

13 hours ago, Jpsredemption said:

Peterman and Allen couldn't hold Fluties jock.

 

Someone watched a MUCH different player than I saw.

 

I saw a guy that was just barely good enough to win 10 games on the back of a top-3 defense, which made him better than the other guy, but still not good enough.

 

Oddly, that sounds more like Tuh-rod than any other recent Bills QB.

[BuffaloHokie13]

Just now, thebandit27 said:

 

Someone watched a MUCH different player than I saw.

 

I saw a guy that was just barely good enough to win 10 games on the back of a top-3 defense, which made him better than the other guy, but still not good enough.

 

Oddly, that sounds more like Tuh-rod than any other recent Bills QB.

And the last 2 QB's of Bills playoff teams were...

[thebandit27]

Just now, BuffaloHokie13 said:

And the last 2 QB's of Bills playoff teams were...

 

Yep.

 

That's more or less my point: good enough to play safe football and make a big play here or there is often sufficient to allow a team to sneak into the playoffs as a WC.

[Bills Pimpin']

Best case scenario... IF Peterman is good this year, it would be reminiscent of the Brees, Rivers situation. Brees drafted in 2001 in second round was mediocre and injured for a couple years. SD drafts Rivers in 2004 and trades Brees. Both go on to possible HOF careers. 

Buffalo trades Peterman next year and keeps Allen. I'm not comparing the Peterman to Brees but thats the closest I can think of if the 5% chance that Peterman shows possible franchise QB worthiness comes to fruition.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 hours ago, greeneblitz said:

Just think, Sean McDermott intentionally created this situation, most teams work to clear the way for their rookie QB, instead McDermott has insured that there will be drama among the fans and possibly the locker room no matter what happens by pushing Peterman.

 

It's already happening, fans and media are lining up into camps into who should start.

 

Clearing the way for the rookie QB was surely one motivation for trading Taylor.

 

I hate to put it this way, but while Peterman has played well at times this preseason, I think the “drama” is all in the minds of some fans.

Peterman has had a year to master NFL offenses and more game time/film review to recognize what he sees on the field.  It’s not automatic for Allen yet and no reason to expect it would be, but when it is, there’s not going to be “drama” or controversy.  Allen has by far the better arm and everyone knows it.  As Benjamin said “what he’s got, you can’t teach”

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Bills Pimpin' said:

Best case scenario... IF Peterman is good this year, it would be reminiscent of the Brees, Rivers situation. Brees drafted in 2001 in second round was mediocre and injured for a couple years. SD drafts Rivers in 2004 and trades Brees. Both go on to possible HOF careers. 

Buffalo trades Peterman next year and keeps Allen. I'm not comparing the Peterman to Brees but thats the closest I can think of if the 5% chance that Peterman shows possible franchise QB worthiness comes to fruition.

 

Brees was not traded by San Diego.  He was a FA.  Neither was Brees injured for a couple years before becoming a FA.   He was considered to need time to adjust from his college spread offense in 2001, and he was benched in favor of Flutie after he struggled in his 2nd year playing (2003).   It’s true the Chargers thought Brees couldn’t play at a high level, so drafted Eli and traded for Rivers, after which Brees lit the place on fire.

 

I don’t see the situations as being at all comparable, frankly.  Brees was drafted at the top of the 2nd, just off the 1st round with the intention of him becoming “the man”.  That is not what you hope for when you draft a guy in the 4th or 5th round.   To give him his propers, Peterman has played well this pre-season but in terms of NFL talent evaluation or what we’ve seen so far, Peterman is no Drew Brees.

 

A backup QB is needed and if Peterman plays decently, the Bills have no motivation to trade him more than the Eagles have a motivation to trade Foles.

[Kelly the Dog]

15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Brees was not traded by San Diego.  He was a FA.  Neither was Brees injured for a couple years before becoming a FA.   He was considered to need time to adjust from his college spread offense in 2001, and he was benched in favor of Flutie after he struggled in his 2nd year playing (2003).   It’s true the Chargers thought Brees couldn’t play at a high level, so drafted Eli and traded for Rivers, after which Brees lit the place on fire.

 

I don’t see the situations as being at all comparable, frankly.  Brees was drafted at the top of the 1st round with the intention of him becoming “the man”.  That is not what you hope for when you draft a guy in the 4th or 5th round.   To give him his propers, Peterman has played well this pre-season but in terms of NFL talent evaluation or what we’ve seen so far, Peterman is no Drew Brees.

 

A backup QB is needed and if Peterman plays decently, the Bills have no motivation to trade him more than the Eagles have a motivation to trade Foles.

Yep on Brees. Although he was drafted at the top of the second round. And it should be noted that there were 30-31 teams then. I'm pretty sure he was pick 32, which of course would be first round any year since 2002. 

[JoeF]

Should Tops and Wegmans start clearing the shelves for Peterman Puffs?

[ngbills]

2 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Yep.

 

That's more or less my point: good enough to play safe football and make a big play here or there is often sufficient to allow a team to sneak into the playoffs as a WC.

Funny how that is made out to be such a negative thing. Guess 17 years of no playoffs is better. You need to build a winning culture. That starts with winning. 

[prissythecat]

17 hours ago, Coach55 said:

For full disclosure, I am not on either side of the fence.  I just want the Bills to win, don't care who his the Quarterback.  With that being said, the QB controversy that currently exists is starting to look like the late 90s all over again.

 

The Players...

 

Johnson - the heir apparent.  Bills make a big trade to get a QB with a huge arm, great mobility who needs development

Allen - the heir apparent.  Bills make a big trade to draft a QB with a huge arm, great mobility who needs development

 

Flutie - the undersized underdog, who plays smart football with a weak arm and makes the weak OLine look good

Peterman - the underdog, who plays smart football with a weak arm and makes the weak OLine look good.

 

The Scenario...

 

As of right now, Peterman (in spite of his crappy rookie season) has won the preseason battle and deserves to start.  I might add, he has played remarkably well.  Allen has struggled, showing glimpses of greatness throughout preseason.  People are already making excuses for Allen (blaming the OLine, who I admit has been weak, but 3 of the 5 sacks against Cincinnati could have easily been avoided had Allen made a quicker decision).  

 

The Issue...

 

Ok.  As of right now, Peterman should start (if he doesn't I would be surprised).  What I am afraid of is - What if he actually succeeds (low probability)?  Let's say he starts 5-2, do we have another late 90s issue where the winning QB is always put on the back burner for the potential of the heir apparent?  

 

Thoughts?  btw, this is all conjecture to stir the pot. 

Doesn't Peterman have 6 interceptions and 3 fumbles in 49 passing attempts during actual play in regular season and playoffs?    That's smart football?

[thebandit27]

21 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Funny how that is made out to be such a negative thing. Guess 17 years of no playoffs is better. You need to build a winning culture. That starts with winning. 

 

I have no idea how you drew that conclusion from what I wrote

[McNubbins]

It’s easy to draw conclusions on the past and apply them to the future, particularly with this franchise who were stuck in a rut for so long. 

 

I think McBeane will play who they thinks gives them the best chance to win, period.  I also think they believe the longer Allen doesn’t have to play, the better. 

 

I’m not worried about it. 

[ngbills]

11 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

I have no idea how you drew that conclusion from what I wrote

Was not saying you - more the general mindset on the board. Especially when people talk about Tyrod.

[LABILLBACKER]

17 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

This is nothing like Flutie/Johnson. Allen is their QB and Peterman has had a great preseason. The problem with Flutie/Johnson is that different people supported different guys. This franchise is in lockstep regarding Allen. They have targeted him for 2 years to be their guy. It may not work out but he is going to be the guy for at least a couple of years. 

Horrible comparison.  Allen has 2x the arm & mobility of Robojoke. Peterman is nowhere like Doug. Good try though.

[reddogblitz]

I don't if they will or not.  But if either one of them turns out to be as good as Flutie, we're in really good shape.  Just roll with him.  Don't be dumb like we were with Flutie.

[Kelly the Dog]

Rob Johnson was always terrible. Think about it for a second. This is a guy who is big (at least tall), with a big arm, who could move, who played at a big school, in a pro style offense, under a former NFL coach, and who came from a football family with his dad being a legendary HS coach who molded him... and what happened? He fell to the fourth round. Scouts drool over guys like that. They always always get overdrafted. 

 

They knew. The scouts and GMs knew. And we should have. Despite his one good game in Jax.

 

The first game he played was a microcosm of his entire career. He started, played lousy, got sacked and hurt, and then Flutie came in to almost save the day. I think we lost on the last play missing a 20 yard FG or something like that. That game was the entire RJ/Flutie controversy. 

 

BUT RJ RAN 30 YARDS WITH ONE SHOE!!! ONE SHOE!!!

 

You know who else can run 30 yards in one shoe? My four year-old grand niece.

[thebandit27]

26 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Was not saying you - more the general mindset on the board. Especially when people talk about Tyrod.

 

Ah ok

[Bills Pimpin']

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Brees was not traded by San Diego.  He was a FA.  Neither was Brees injured for a couple years before becoming a FA.   He was considered to need time to adjust from his college spread offense in 2001, and he was benched in favor of Flutie after he struggled in his 2nd year playing (2003).   It’s true the Chargers thought Brees couldn’t play at a high level, so drafted Eli and traded for Rivers, after which Brees lit the place on fire.

 

I don’t see the situations as being at all comparable, frankly.  Brees was drafted at the top of the 1st round with the intention of him becoming “the man”.  That is not what you hope for when you draft a guy in the 4th or 5th round.   To give him his propers, Peterman has played well this pre-season but in terms of NFL talent evaluation or what we’ve seen so far, Peterman is no Drew Brees.

 

A backup QB is needed and if Peterman plays decently, the Bills have no motivation to trade him more than the Eagles have a motivation to trade Foles.

You are right Brees wasn't traded, but he was not kept by the Chargers either.  

 

The Chargers drafted Rivers #4 overall because the Chargers thought "Brees couldn't play at a high level". After drafting Rivers, "Brees lit the place on fire". Those are your words not mine. So explain to me then if Peterman "lights the place on fire" (which is basically the OP's scenario) after drafting Allen #7 how is it not a similar situation? What difference does it make what round Peterman was drafted in if he "lights the place on fire"? If its because you don't think it's plausible Peterman can "light the place on fire" then thats not playing by the rules of the scenario.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Yep on Brees. Although he was drafted at the top of the second round. And it should be noted that there were 30-31 teams then. I'm pretty sure he was pick 32, which of course would be first round any year since 2002. 

 Sheesh thats what I meant.  Damn eyeball

[Hapless Bills Fan]

28 minutes ago, Bills Pimpin' said:

You are right Brees wasn't traded, but he was not kept by the Chargers either.  

 

Brees was a FA.  He had been franchised in 2005.  He could sign where he wanted.  The Chargers offered him and his Tommy Johns shoulder 5 year, $50M (which was big money at that time) and he turned it down because he didn't like the terms and shopped elsewhere, signing with the Saints.  Repeat: they didn't trade him, they didn't release him, he was a FA and "keeping him" was not an option unless they were willing to match or outbid the Saints by ramping up the big money contract they had already offered, all the while while they had a 1st round pick on the bench with the clock ticking on his rookie deal.

 

Quote

The Chargers drafted Rivers #4 overall because the Chargers thought "Brees couldn't play at a high level". After drafting Rivers, "Brees lit the place on fire". Those are your words not mine. So explain to me then if Peterman "lights the place on fire" (which is basically the OP's scenario) after drafting Allen #7 how is it not a similar situation? What difference does it make what round Peterman was drafted in if he "lights the place on fire"? If its because you don't think it's plausible Peterman can "light the place on fire" then thats not playing by the rules of the scenario.

 

If we're going back to the OP scenario, we're talking about Flutie/Johnson, and not "lighting the place on fire" but "succeeding", which is spelled out as "5-2".

That is not a similar situation for different reasons, spelled out by different responses up thread

 

I don't agree with you that "succeeding" "5-2" is basically the same as "light the place on fire".

[Kelly the Dog]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Brees was a FA.  He had been franchised in 2005.  He could sign where he wanted.  The Chargers offered him and his Tommy Johns shoulder 5 year, $50M (which was big money at that time) and he turned it down because he didn't like the terms and shopped elsewhere, signing with the Saints.  Repeat: they didn't trade him, they didn't release him, he was a FA and "keeping him" was not an option unless they were willing to match or outbid the Saints by ramping up the big money contract they had already offered, all the while while they had a 1st round pick on the bench with the clock ticking on his rookie deal.

 

 

 

Brees' shoulder was still an issue. He and Dante Culpepper both wanted to sign with the Dolphins and the Dolphins brass, which was Nick Saban and others at the time, preferred Brees. But their doctors were very worried about his shoulder, so they signed Culpepper over Brees, even though he was coming off an injury, too. Then Brees signed with NO.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

 

 

 

....hmmm...."Peterman/Allen are the next Flutie/Johnson"....thoughts like these are better kept as a deep, dark secret versus impugning one's credibility (COUGH)....besides, the "Double H Boyz" as in Holcomb & Hamdan are better than the whole damn lot anyway...........

[Kelly the Dog]

Peterman/Allen is more like Jim Druckenmiller/Steve Young than Flutie/Johnson.