Is Beane making the same mistake Whaley made?

[schoolhouserock]

I don’t think this front office has a great feel for what the offense will need now that the QB and OC have changed. That probably factors into these decisions in a big way.

 

On the other hand, they know exactly what the D needs. They know what players have a good shot because they fit what the Bills are trying to do on that side of the ball.

 

The offense is still too much of an unknown.

 

Just a hunch.

[CuddyDark]

14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not sure this is right. 

 

Yes, McDermott is saying "these are the qualities I value in the players I need", just as any head coach does.  I think he had strong input into the draft board.

 

But I think all the evidence shows that Beane is in charge of the show and is sometimes tossing McDermott major curveballs in the player personnel decisions (eg Sammy trade, Dareus trade, etc).  Beane is NOT just here for research, he's here to manage the cap and figure out how to build and refresh a competitive roster within it, and that means he has control.

 

If you'd like to point out what you see as McDermott's "total control" and McDermott's operation, that'd be fine.

I believe both of those trades were McDermott. Both are locker room. Both are culture. Both are work ethic. No curve at all, all McDermott. Beane has cap responsibility yes but even he says that Overdorf's responsibility. When it comes to players I believe McDermott is in total control of who we draft, especially on defense. Beane gathers player info, he looks into the cap but he is not a powerful GM like they have in say Baltimore or Denver. This is McDermott's operation. Beane may be his equal but he's not a powerful GM. I'd bet Beane can't even fire McDermott.

8 minutes ago, Putin said:

There’s obviously McDermott’s finger prints all over , but I completely disagree that it’s McDermott’s operation, there is nothing wrong with the HC and GM to be on the same page and work together , 

And for a first year HC to have complete control is a little premature don’t you think ?

No. This is why the Pegula's hired him. This is what they like about him. He can run the organization and be the face of the franchise.

[Boatdrinks]

17 minutes ago, Success said:

Others have said this - but Allen was consensus top 5.  #1 on some boards.  One scout said he was the alpha of all of this year’s QB’s.

 

EJ was a massive reach in the 1st round, in a year that was terrible for QB’s.

Yep. EJ was the 67th prospect in top 100. Smith, Glennon, Nassib and Barkley all rated higher. For some perspective , Robert Woods was in the 40's. It's not a valid comparison, plain and simple. Funny thing is , some on this board suggested they pick Rudolph in first round, some even at pick 12. Rudolph went in the 3rd round. 

Edited April 28, 2018 by Boatdrinks

[Putin]

5 minutes ago, dgrochester55 said:

"1. Draft a project QB in the 1st round"

 
2013, we got rid of our previous starter without a replacement and on draft day had no option at quarterback, this forced us to reach for someone.  2018, we had a veteran backup and draft capital to take a chance on a large prospect.  Huge difference

 

Allen has things he needs to work on, but there is a huge difference between Allen and Manuel.  Allen was a almost unanimous projection as a top 10 pick, Manuel was a reach that should have been a mid round pick in perhaps the worst year to draft a quarterback in decades.    We also have a reliable  backup in McCarron.  Assuming no assault from a floor mat, the situation of being rushed in before ready is not likely.

 

"2. Doesn't bring in a coach to teach project QB. Our HC has no idea how to develop a QB, our OC doesn't exactly have much experience either, and our QB coach has been a WR coach for the past 10 years. Very concerning."

 

How do you know this?  Is this your speculation or are there numbers that back up your opinion that our coach and defensive coordinator wont be able to develop a quarterback?  

 

"3. Draft heavy on defense (despite how much better defense was than offense). Whaley did move up for Watkins but he drafted mostly defensive players when Rex came, changed the system and drafted 3-4 players who are all gone now."

I wish there was more at wide reciever, but I like the picks for the most part.  The defense overarchieved last year and need some more power upfront.  Edmunds and Phillips can hopefully provide that.  

 

"Pretty worrying so far. Our defense def had holes to fill, but I think some people tend to forget how many games they won us this season. I can maybe think of 1 or 2 games where the defense let us down. This offense right now is not an ideal place where a rookie QB can come and learn. We have the worst line in the league by a longshot. We have 1 extremely injury prone WR and an aging RB."

 

There are some valid worries there, the line in my opinion is not as bad as some think, but there could be trouble if McCoy gets hurt or does not produce.  With McCarron there, Allen does not have to be ready right away.

 

Going back to the point of your post, there ar emany differences between now and 2013.  I feel like you have already taken the worst case scenario and made that fact in your mind.  Lets see what happens in the next few months.

 

 

 

 

Also we don’t start our first game until September , there will be many roaster moves and cuts , so there’s still plenty of time to fill few holes at WR , LB and so on , also it wouldn’t surprise me if we make couple of trades before week 1 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, CuddyDark said:

I believe both of those trades were McDermott. Both are locker room. Both are culture. Both are work ethic. No curve at all, all McDermott. Beane has cap responsibility yes but even he says that Overdorf's responsibility. When it comes to players I believe McDermott is in total control of who we draft, especially on defense. Beane gathers player info, he looks into the cap but he is not a powerful GM like they have in say Baltimore or Denver. This is McDermott's operation. Beane may be his equal but he's not a powerful GM. I'd bet Beane can't even fire McDermott.

 

OK, so "really clear" means "in your opinion".  Nothing wrong with opinions, we all have 'em, but just so we're clear you're not talking about evidence.

 

At the end of year presser, Beane was talking about how McDermott had performed as coach and something about his having to deal with curveballs in those two trades.

I can't hunt it down right now, maybe someone else will.  MCDermott was standing beside him and kind of grimaced and made a little nod when Beane said it.

 

I believe Beane and McDermott both report in parallel to Pegula, which is not supportive of it being "McDermott's operation" with Beane "here for research"

 

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Yeezus said:

 

and this is why taking a damn project QB was an awful decision.

 

Or maybe it’s just your (no NFL experience) assessment of the situation is what’s actually awful?

Edited April 28, 2018 by Alphadawg7

[Lfod]

1 hour ago, CuddyDark said:

Beane is here for research. McDermott is the blueprint. He's getting his players. Players that fit what he wants going back to the Eagles and the defense and offense he learned from Reid and Johnson. Beane is the GM and I take nothing from him but if it doesn't work Beane will go before McDermott. This is the same relationship Reid has in KC and Belichick in NE and Pete in Sea. McDermott took a job that gave him total control. It's really clear that this is McDermott's operation.

Using your logic McDermott running the show means he would take the blame. Meaning he would be shown the door first. They will fire Beane if McDermott runs the show improperly?

Edited April 28, 2018 by Lfod

[Fred Clause]

1 hour ago, jtothebrown said:

Does he not have valid points??

 

I wonder sometimes how many of these posters on here work for the team. 

He had points, but his points were not valid. The defense needed a serious upgrade at several positions. There’s no saying they don’t add help for the kid in the future either. They got a good o lineman. The remake of roster is not complete. More money available and more picks next year...

[Pbomb]

48 minutes ago, Jpsredemption said:

Not impressed with this regime yet. They have a lot to prove yet.

Breaking the 17 year playoff drought in their first year  didnt impress you at all?

[Boatdrinks]

7 minutes ago, schoolhouserock said:

I don’t think this front office has a great feel for what the offense will need now that the QB and OC have changed. That probably factors into these decisions in a big way.

 

On the other hand, they know exactly what the D needs. They know what players have a good shot because they fit what the Bills are trying to do on that side of the ball.

 

The offense is still too much of an unknown.

 

Just a hunch.

This makes sense to a point. Beane has said Dabolls offense will be tailored around the QB. Still, the best spot to take WRs, TEs was in the 2nd and early 3rd. Same with OLs. The Bills traded most picks in that range. I believe that had the most to do with what players they picked. 

[SouthNYfan]

If Beane had "pulled a Whaley" he would have had to trade both #12 and #22 and next year's 1st, then drafted Lamar Jackson.

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Really?  Over a 3 game stretch the defense gave up an average of 46 points per game alone.  Our Def wasn’t great and we have created big holes through trades and FA.

 

I don’t get your post at all.  And FYI:  All QBs are “projects”.  Never in the history of the league has there been a player enter the NFL that needed no development or coaching.  This term gets so over used.  Every QB in this draft has things they MUST improve at to succeed in the NFL.  

The guy who made the quote about inaccuracy 3-night ago himself was 3-13 in his rookie season!!!!!   Every QB is a project in some sense that get nurtured through the process...The ones who get time are successful.....see Aikman,  Favre, Young, Rodgers, Brees, Brady  etc

[Victory Formation]

Well, we still got Shady, Benjamin and Clay, those are some nice targets. Maybe Zay can turn his career around?

 

OL isn't as bad as many think, definitely our weakness but Dawkins is a stud at LT and Bodine has a ton of experience at center. Groy and Miller can develop into serviceable starters, at least for a year.

 

I don't think Allen is going to start much of the year, at most I could see him in there for 5-7 games, it's basically going to be a redshirt year for him, as it should be IMO.

 

McCarron on the other hand is going into an awful situation.

[Doc Brown]

1 hour ago, Yeezus said:

1. Draft a project QB in the 1st round 

 

2. Doesn't bring in a coach to teach project QB. Our HC has no idea how to develop a QB, our OC doesn't exactly have much experience either, and our QB coach has been a WR coach for the past 10 years. Very concerning. 

 

3. Draft heavy on defense (despite how much better defense was than offense). Whaley did move up for Watkins but he drafted mostly defensive players when Rex came, changed the system and drafted 3-4 players who are all gone now. 

 

Pretty worrying so far. Our defense def had holes to fill, but I think some people tend to forget how many games they won us this season. I can maybe think of 1 or 2 games where the defense let us down. This offense right now is not an ideal place where a rookie QB can come and learn. We have the worst line in the league by a longshot. We have 1 extremely injury prone WR and an aging RB. 

1.)  Allen is a much better prospect than EJ.  Stronger arm (an absolute cannon), quicker release, and more athletic.  I didn't want either, but I can't deny Allen's potential.

 

2.)  I'm concerned as well.  Daboll served as Jets QB coach for two seasons where Pennington and Favre declined and their careers faded.  Clemens never panned out.  He was the OC/WR coach at Alabama last year.  The rest of his career was either as offensive coordinator, WR, or TE coach.  I don't know how much of an expert he is at developing a QB and how much input he'll have in trying to develop Allen.  I share your concern about Culley.  I also don't know how Jordan Palmer fits into all of this.  Is he an outside consultant at this point? 

 

3.) Rex coming in was a mess because our defense was best suited under Schwartz's system.  We went from a simple four man rush with Mario Williams and Jerry Hughes lined up wide in a 4-3 scheme to a 3-4 scheme that relied on disguising blitzes and even having the DE's back up in coverage.  With McDermott and Frazier, they have signed players and drafted players that fit their system.  The defense should be really solid and that will keep you in a lot of football games.  I think next off season is when you're going to see us significantly upgrade our offense as we got a little unlucky that Wood and Incognito retired.

[co_springs_billsfan]

Beane didn't hire Rex, so there's a mistake Whaley made that hasn't been repeated.

 

 

[SouthNYfan]

16 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

1.)  Allen is a much better prospect than EJ.  Stronger arm (an absolute cannon), quicker release, and more athletic.  I didn't want either, but I can't deny Allen's potential.

 

2.)  I'm concerned as well.  Daboll served as Jets QB coach for two seasons where Pennington and Favre declined and their careers faded.  Clemens never panned out.  He was the OC/WR coach at Alabama last year.  The rest of his career was either as offensive coordinator, WR, or TE coach.  I don't know how much of an expert he is at developing a QB and how much input he'll have in trying to develop Allen.  I share your concern about Culley.  I also don't know how Jordan Palmer fits into all of this.  Is he an outside consultant at this point? 

 

3.) Rex coming in was a mess because our defense was best suited under Schwartz's system.  We went from a simple four man rush with Mario Williams and Jerry Hughes lined up wide in a 4-3 scheme to a 3-4 scheme that relied on disguising blitzes and even having the DE's back up in coverage.  With McDermott and Frazier, they have signed players and drafted players that fit their system.  The defense should be really solid and that will keep you in a lot of football games.  I think next off season is when you're going to see us significantly upgrade our offense as we got a little unlucky that Wood and Incognito retired.

 

That's a ridiculous stretch.

Both of those guys were already established.

Daboll changed nothing with their careers.

Pennington had an up and down career prior to daboll, and played most of 2007 on a a sprained ankle (week 4).

 

Favre was 38 years old, already Hof bound, on the decline, and being replaced by Rodgers.

He started 8-3 with the Jets, injured his throwing arm,then played through a throwing arm injury, which he played awful during this stretch, eventually needing surgery to repair a torn bicep on his throwing arm.

 

Pennington is a stretch, Favre is completely absurd.

I cannot believe you are blaming daboll for a 38+ year old injured Favre's decline.

Has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever read on here.

[Doc Brown]

2 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

That's a ridiculous stretch.

Both of those guys were already established.

Daboll changed nothing with their careers.

Pennington had an up and down career prior to daboll, and played most of 2007 on a a sprained ankle (week 4).

 

Favre was 38 years old, already Hof bound, on the decline, and being replaced by Rodgers.

He started 8-3 with the Jets, injured his throwing arm,then played through a throwing arm injury, which he played awful during this stretch, eventually needing surgery to repair a torn bicep on his throwing arm.

 

Pennington is a stretch, Favre is completely absurd.

I cannot believe you are blaming daboll for a 38+ year old injured Favre's decline.

Has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever read on here.

Did I say that I blamed Daboll for their decline?  I said that I don't know what I'm getting from Daboll as he's never really had a chance to develop a young quarterback before because Pennington and Favre were near the end of their careers.

[SouthNYfan]

3 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Did I say that I blamed Daboll for their decline?  I said that I don't know what I'm getting from Daboll as he's never really had a chance to develop a young quarterback before because Pennington and Favre were near the end of their careers.

 

32 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

 

2.)  I'm concerned as well.  Daboll served as Jets QB coach for two seasons where Pennington and Favre declined and their careers faded.  

 

Your wording is that he served as their QB coach which caused their careers to decline and fade.

 

[PromoTheRobot]

I'm concerned.

[Doc Brown]

7 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

Your wording is that he served as their QB coach which caused their careers to decline and fade.

 

Yeah.  I saw that when you posted.  Didn't mean it in that way.