Standing Pat...

[RPbillsfan]

16 minutes ago, Nostradumbass said:

Nobody should give a flying @#*$ about building the roster

 

The Bills have had a decent roster for the past 5 years and have been mediocre because the most important position hasn't been given the proper amount of attention by the organization

 

Giving up giant chunks of draft capital for a fairly decent chance of getting a franchise QB is the right move 

What if their is little to no seperation between a QB. So we trade a bunch of valuable picks for a guy who may not be as good as the guy we draft staying where we are.

 

Plus, why don't all you "trade the future at all costs" people discuss of putting a young QB on an incomplete team and expect immediate results.

 

I read lots of trade up, but never read about the implications of how trading up impacts the roster for 2018.

 

Please answer that question with facts and what the roster would look like, I doubt you can but at least the board would have a chance to see things from your perspective.

[Dadonkadonk]

Sit tight and hope Allen falls to 12.  If he does the Bills are set for a decade.  He can sit for a year or two.  If AJ is a star then you can trade Allen.  With the remaining picks get a WR a OG and 5 defenders.

The whole draft hinges on what the Giants do at #2.  If they take a QB then the best move is to wait and see if Allen or Mayfield falls to 12.  If they are not going to take a QB then a trade can be made to get the QB the Bills truly want or if they take Barkely the Browns will probably trade out of #4. 

Honestly I'm ok either way.  Both approaches will be fine.  They have AJ and should be competitive at the QB position for the next two years.

[Wayne Cubed]

19 minutes ago, YodaMan79 said:

 

Agreed.  Every decent QB would be worth multiple 1st Rd picks now...  The beauty is doing it organically and finding value where others couldn't see it, or didn't have the opportunity to capitalize.  

 

3rd round drafted QBs since 2000:

Chris Redman, Giovanni Carmazzi, Josh McCown, Dave Ragone, Chris Simms, Matt Schaub, Charlie Frye, Andrew Walter, David Greene, Charlie Whitehurst, Brodie Croyle, Trent Edwards, Kevin O'Connell, Colt McCoy, Ryan Mallett, Russell Wilson, Nick Foles, Mike Glennon, Garrett Grayson, Sean Manion, Jacoby Brissett, Cody Kessler, Davis Webb, CJ Beathard

 

Russell Wilson is literally the outlier here, 1 guy. Yea, Foles just won a Super Bowl on the back of a MVP season by Wentz. They are the only 2 on this list to even play in Super Bowls. Wilson will end up being the only HOF out of this group.

 

Compare that to the 1st round picks since 2000:

Chad Pennington, Michael Vick, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Patrick Ramsey, Carson Palmer, Byron Leftwich, Kyle Boller, Rex Grossman, Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger, JP Losman, Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers, Jason Campbell, Vince Young, Matt Leinart, Jay Cutler, JaMarcus Russell, Brady Quinn, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Matthew Stafford, Mark Sanchez, Sam Bradford, Tim Tebow, Cam Newton, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder, Andrew Luck, Robert Griffin, Ryan Tannehill, Brandon Weeden, EJ Manuel , Blake Bortles, Johnny Manziel, Teddy Bridgewater, Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariota, Jared Goff, Carson Wentz, Paxton Lynch, Mitchell Trubisky, Patrick Mahomes, Deshaun Watson

 

There are 6 SB wins in this group and 6 QBs that played in a SB. There were another 5 that were a win from playing in the SB. There are also 4 HoFs with a possibility of Matt Ryan/Cam Newton/Andrew Luck getting there too. Are there some bad years? Of course, it's not an exact science.

 

Finding QBs "organically" is a myth. The 1st round produces more, it's just fact.

[Tyrod's friend]

3 minutes ago, RPbillsfan said:

What if their is little to no seperation between a QB. So we trade a bunch of valuable picks for a guy who may not be as good as the guy we draft staying where we are.

 

Plus, why don't all you "trade the future at all costs" people discuss of putting a young QB on an incomplete team and expect immediate results.

 

I read lots of trade up, but never read about the implications of how trading up impacts the roster for 2018.

 

Please answer that question with facts and what the roster would look like, I doubt you can but at least the board would have a chance to see things from your perspective.

When you draft a guy and don't have infrastructure ...

 

Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	QBrec	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	TD%	Int	Int%	Lng	Y/A	AY/A	Y/C	Y/G	Rate	QBR	Sk	Yds	NY/A	ANY/A	Sk%	4QC	GWD	AV
2016	22	LAR	qb	16	7	7	0-7-0	112	205	54.6	1089	5	2.4	7	3.4	66	5.3	4.3	9.7	155.6	63.6	18.9	26	222	3.75	2.82	11.3			-2

 

The Rams went ahead and got themselves a LT, 2 WR and the best offensive minds. 

when you draft a guy and you have infrastructure ...

Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	QBrec	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	TD%	Int	Int%	Lng	Y/A	AY/A	Y/C	Y/G	Rate	QBR	Sk	Yds	NY/A	ANY/A	Sk%	4QC	GWD	AV
2012*	24	SEA	QB	3	16	16	11-5-0	252	393	64.1	3118	26	6.6	10	2.5	67	7.9	8.1	12.4	194.9	100.0	72.7	33	203	6.84	7.01	7.7	3	4	16

Two guys drafted before they got a QB in the 2012 draft.

 

 

							Misc					Passing					Rushing			Receiving
Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	Yrs	From	To	AP1	PB	St	CarAV	G	Cmp	Att	Yds	TD	Int	Att	Yds	TD	Rec	Yds	TD	College/Univ
1	Bruce Irvin	15	DE	6	2012	2017	0	0	5	35	90												West Virginia
2	Bobby Wagner	47	LB	6	2012	2017	3	4	6	73	88												Utah St.

In order to get to the point of drafting Wilson in the 4th round, they passed on 2 QBs - both widely thought to be a reach (Osweiler and Weeden). 
 

Just now, Wayne Cubed said:

 

3rd round drafted QBs since 2000:

Chris Redman, Giovanni Carmazzi, Josh McCown, Dave Ragone, Chris Simms, Matt Schaub, Charlie Frye, Andrew Walter, David Greene, Charlie Whitehurst, Brodie Croyle, Trent Edwards, Kevin O'Connell, Colt McCoy, Ryan Mallett, Russell Wilson, Nick Foles, Mike Glennon, Garrett Grayson, Sean Manion, Jacoby Brissett, Cody Kessler, Davis Webb, CJ Beathard

 

Russell Wilson is literally the outlier here, 1 guy. Yea, Foles just won a Super Bowl on the back of a MVP season by Wentz. They are the only 2 on this list to even play in Super Bowls. Wilson will end up being the only HOF out of this group.

 

Compare that to the 1st round picks since 2000:

Chad Pennington, Michael Vick, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Patrick Ramsey, Carson Palmer, Byron Leftwich, Kyle Boller, Rex Grossman, Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger, JP Losman, Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers, Jason Campbell, Vince Young, Matt Leinart, Jay Cutler, JaMarcus Russell, Brady Quinn, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Matthew Stafford, Mark Sanchez, Sam Bradford, Tim Tebow, Cam Newton, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder, Andrew Luck, Robert Griffin, Ryan Tannehill, Brandon Weeden, EJ Manuel , Blake Bortles, Johnny Manziel, Teddy Bridgewater, Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariota, Jared Goff, Carson Wentz, Paxton Lynch, Mitchell Trubisky, Patrick Mahomes, Deshaun Watson

 

There are 6 SB wins in this group and 6 QBs that played in a SB. There were another 5 that were a win from playing in the SB. There are also 4 HoFs with a possibility of Matt Ryan/Cam Newton/Andrew Luck getting there too. Are there some bad years? Of course, it's not an exact science.

 

Finding QBs "organically" is a myth. The 1st round produces more, it's just fact.

More lies.

Half the starting QBs in the Super Bowl were not drafted in the first round. It can't all be "luck" when it happens that frequently. So just stop with the bull ****.

[MAJBobby]

2 hours ago, YodaMan79 said:

Looking at the teams depth chart, I'm stating the obvious, but they're really thin in a number of key positions.  I attribute the run to playoffs having more to do with solid coaching, pride, and a dumb luck, than the overall talent on the roster.  All indications were that it was a tank year, like the 76ers, we were all to trust the process.  I give a lot of credit to the players, in not accepting losing as a forgone conclusion and over achieving.  I'm really impressed with what management has done with amassing draft capital.  Now they just can't blow it and draft an Okafor, let's find healthy versions of Simmons and Embiid.  We should take advantage of all the hype surrounding this QB class and get cornerstone pieces in place with the corresponding drop of other positions.  Draft BPA and don't get cute.  Two positions that make everyone around them better, OL and DL should be the focus, with skill position players on offense mixed in rounds 2 and 3.  It may not be sexy, but it's what will build sustained success.  This would potentially allow McCoy to put up one more monster year before Father Time comes a calling, and hopefully provide depth on DL helping the DBs and LBs.  This could be the start of dethroning the evil empire.  Let's see if this front office can help speed up sending BB and TB12 into the sunset.     

 

I apologize for the Philadelphia references but I've been here since the early 2000s and have seen how Eagles have been successful (In envy), got bad, rebuilt and changed philosophies. And it all started with coaching and a cohesive FO.  Think about it, Reid made Alex Smith look good.  The success guys like Feeley, Garcia, Vick, Foles and now Wentz had can be attributed to stability.  They all had a very solid pass blocking OLs and a stable OC/front office, for the most part.  Mr. Beane please find the next Jason Peters (this one stings), John Runyan or Tra Thomas, so when you do find the QB to lead this team they are in a position to succeed.  Finding guys like Rodgers, Watson, Wilson, Cousins and Mahomes outside of the traditional top ten gives me hope.  In short, lets not be the Rams of 2011 and 2012 and hopefully they acquire some foundational players.       

 

Go get to two and get your QB

[Wayne Cubed]

8 minutes ago, Tyrod's friend said:

More lies.

Half the starting QBs in the Super Bowl were not drafted in the first round. It can't all be "luck" when it happens that frequently. So just stop with the bull ****.

 

What are you even talking about? I never said that.

 

Just for arguments sake, since 2000 there have been 21 different QBs who have started in the the SB, 11 came from the first round. I'm not sure what bull crap you are talking about.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Wayne Cubed

[Tyrod's friend]

3 minutes ago, Wayne Cubed said:

 

What are you even talking about? Just for arguments sake, since 2000 there have been 21 different QBs who have started in the the SB, 11 came from the first round. I'm not sure what bull crap you are talking about.

? Yes, half the QBs in the Super Bowl did NOT come from the first round.

You are saying that you need to draft a QB high in order to get to the Super Bowl in a previous post. That is just not true if half the QBs in the Super Bowl are not 1st round picks/ high picks. It's not. 

Russell is NOT the outlier if half the Super Bowl QBs were drafted after the first. 

Edited March 24, 2018 by Tyrod's friend

[Wayne Cubed]

6 minutes ago, Tyrod's friend said:

? Yes, half the QBs in the Super Bowl did NOT come from the first round.

You are saying that you need to draft a QB high in order to get to the Super Bowl in a previous post. That is just not true if half the QBs in the Super Bowl are not 1st round picks/ high picks. It's not. 

Russell is NOT the outlier if half the Super Bowl QBs were drafted after the first. 

 

 

Russell Wilson was 1 guy drafted in the 3rd round. He's the outlier in the 3rd round. You are comparing 1 round to the rest of the draft.... I was comparing 1 round to another.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Wayne Cubed

[Tyrod's friend]

I'm at a loss ... omg.

Look, is striking me that your argument is the same damned one that every other poster wants to make here; that you can't get to the Super Bowl unless you draft a QB high. And you add in the comments that Russell Wilson was an outlier. 

We do agree to this much - there are a stack of appearances of guys in the Super Bowl not drafted high. 

He can't be the outlier, if his experience is not infrequent - if not the norm. 
To that extent, he's not the only one since the 2012 draft. It's almost becoming the norm to be drafted later and outperforming the guys at the top. Is Jimmy Garrapolo an example of a team getting "lucky". Then the Cowboys must be lucky too; they got a 1st year, 1st team Pro Bowl QB in the 4th. 

How are all these players just "lucky" and "outliers"? Put a quality guy, from any round selected in a situation where his surrounded by a good team and good things happen. There just isn't that much differentiating players in the NFL today - if there was, you wouldn't have backups getting $20MM deals and making the playoffs.

 

[Direhard Fan]

I still stand pat on not giving away the farm for one maybe.  We have a golden opportunity to build our lines and build the "D".  Fill some of other needs on "O".   Take a shot on a QB later.  Without a line and a great "D" no one will be great. 

[Green Lightning]

9 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

So who is that guy??  This year we have about 5 guys back in August who were all the next Jared Goff or better.  Now there a 5 guys all with question marks for different reasons.  Any of them could be him, but willing to bet at least two will be compared to Ryan Leaf in less than 5 years.

So we should sit on our hands and quiver? The Rams picked their guy, they knew. Have trust in the FO that they can do it too.

[Hebert19]

10 hours ago, Green Lightning said:

Okay, let's be the Rams of 2016 who traded up plenty to get the number one pick, Jared Goff their franchise quarterback.

 

10 hours ago, Green Lightning said:

Okay, let's be the Rams of 2016 who traded up plenty to get the number one pick, Jared Goff their franchise quarterback.

Remains to be seen.  Terrible first year.  Good second year with best weapons in the league.  Let's see what happens this year before we say he's franchise. 

[Da webster guy]

We have a great young LT, need a versatile guard and rt.   i think if we stay put you will see Vita Vea become a Bill.  the next Ngata

[Green Lightning]

21 minutes ago, Hebert19 said:

 

Remains to be seen.  Terrible first year.  Good second year with best weapons in the league.  Let's see what happens this year before we say he's franchise. 

Just saying if you keep passing on QBs because your not 100% sure is the foundation of our manifest medicrity the past two decades.

[greeneblitz]

All this Mason talk reminds me of the same idiotic thinking that got us JP Losman, they have the draft capital to go get one of the 4 franchise QBs, if they fail to get a deal done at any cost it's their fault and will likely mean another 4 years without a Qb

[mannc]

19 hours ago, Wayne Cubed said:

 

3rd round drafted QBs since 2000:

Chris Redman, Giovanni Carmazzi, Josh McCown, Dave Ragone, Chris Simms, Matt Schaub, Charlie Frye, Andrew Walter, David Greene, Charlie Whitehurst, Brodie Croyle, Trent Edwards, Kevin O'Connell, Colt McCoy, Ryan Mallett, Russell Wilson, Nick Foles, Mike Glennon, Garrett Grayson, Sean Manion, Jacoby Brissett, Cody Kessler, Davis Webb, CJ Beathard

 

Russell Wilson is literally the outlier here, 1 guy. Yea, Foles just won a Super Bowl on the back of a MVP season by Wentz. They are the only 2 on this list to even play in Super Bowls. Wilson will end up being the only HOF out of this group.

 

Compare that to the 1st round picks since 2000:

Chad Pennington, Michael Vick, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Patrick Ramsey, Carson Palmer, Byron Leftwich, Kyle Boller, Rex Grossman, Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger, JP Losman, Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers, Jason Campbell, Vince Young, Matt Leinart, Jay Cutler, JaMarcus Russell, Brady Quinn, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Matthew Stafford, Mark Sanchez, Sam Bradford, Tim Tebow, Cam Newton, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder, Andrew Luck, Robert Griffin, Ryan Tannehill, Brandon Weeden, EJ Manuel , Blake Bortles, Johnny Manziel, Teddy Bridgewater, Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariota, Jared Goff, Carson Wentz, Paxton Lynch, Mitchell Trubisky, Patrick Mahomes, Deshaun Watson

 

There are 6 SB wins in this group and 6 QBs that played in a SB. There were another 5 that were a win from playing in the SB. There are also 4 HoFs with a possibility of Matt Ryan/Cam Newton/Andrew Luck getting there too. Are there some bad years? Of course, it's not an exact science.

 

Finding QBs "organically" is a myth. The 1st round produces more, it's just fact.

Fine.  Then let’s use one of our first round picks on a QB.  Doesn’t mean we have to give up a ton of picks to move up.

[oldmanfan]

If one or two of them grade out significantly higher than the others, move to 2.

 

If the grades are equivalent, stay where you are and get one at 12 or 22.

 

Simple

 

 

 

[stuvian]

To me the key to which QB falls to us lies with Denver at #5. I'm not convinced NYG is going QB. They could get back into post season with Barkley, Eli and a couple of O-linemen. They're waiting for a Hail Mary of picks from a desperate team wanting to move up.

 

I think Terry and Kim have handed the keys to Beane and will allow him to deal picks as he sees fit. I think we took AJ as insurance against a super desperate move. If we avoid QB completely (not saying it will happen) we still have a young prospect in AJ and the fanbase can be appeased with that. The QB conundrum is you can win with a mediocre roster and great QB but if you don't have a great QB you need a near perfect roster to compensate. Perspective means a lot.You can look at our team and say we nearly beat a very good Jaguars team that could have been AFC champ with sub par QB play. By that definition we are only a QB away from glory.

 

I'm OK with Jackson at 12 or Rudolph at our latter 1st round pick. We are thin at many spots. I think Jackson could be very special in the way Cam Newton and Deshaun Watson are special. Rudolph looks like a very well schooled if unspectacular pocket QB along the lines of Mark Brunell. His hilight really was impressive.

[Wayne Cubed]

52 minutes ago, mannc said:

Fine.  Then let’s use one of our first round picks on a QB.  Doesn’t mean we have to give up a ton of picks to move up.

 

Would you like to know the breakdown of where successful QBs/Players are selected in the 1st round? 

[Mat68]

21 hours ago, Tyrod's friend said:

? Yes, half the QBs in the Super Bowl did NOT come from the first round.

You are saying that you need to draft a QB high in order to get to the Super Bowl in a previous post. That is just not true if half the QBs in the Super Bowl are not 1st round picks/ high picks. It's not. 

Russell is NOT the outlier if half the Super Bowl QBs were drafted after the first. 

So there are as many superbowl qbs in round 1 than rd2,3,4,5,6,7 combined?  Which rd outside of first will this years draft produce that qb?  Odds favor your guy comes in round 1.  The math that you point to say the likley hood of landing that superbowl qb in the later rd are long.  When your team needs a qb your better picking the guy with the most ability.