THE ROCKPILE REVIEW - Off and Running

[Shaw66]

I hope you're right.

You and me and about a million other Bills fans.

[Alphadawg7]

I should let this go, but I'm replying for several reasons:

 

1. I have a big ego. I like being right and I like arguing.

 

2. I learn things in these discussions.

 

3. Someone who reads this may learn something. YOU may learn something, but you seem more intent on arguing than listening and thinking.

 

4. Others may enjoy reading this, may even be amused by it.

 

Okay, are you ready? You really misunderstand some basic things about this aspect of football.

 

1. Where do I get the notion that the ball shouldn't be thrown high? It's very simple: quarterbacks are taught that when the defenders are BETWEEN the QB and the receiver, to throw it high so only the receiver can get it. When the defenders are BEHIND the receiver, QBs are supposed to throw low so that only the receiver can get it. Throwing high to receivers when the defenders are BEHIND the receiver leads to the possibility of tipped balls and INTs, which is EXACTLY what happened here. If Taylor had thrown low to Clay, there may or may not have been a completion, but there would have beeen no interception, and the Bills would have kicked a field goal.

 

The best example of this general rule is this exact case. When the receivers are at the back of end zone, the defenders are in front and the QB is supposed to throw high. If the ball goes off the receiver's hands, it carries out end zone and there's no INT.

 

But when the receiver is on the goal line, as in this case, the defenders typically are behind the receiver, so the QB is supposed to throw low.

 

2. There was no reason for Taylor to throw high. There's no advantage to throwing high in that situation, and there's a higher probability of an INT. You seem to think because it's OK in some circumstances to throw high that it's OK in this instance, and it isn't. Much of football decision making is about probabilities, and this case is a good example. THe probability of completing the pass is the same, whether it's thrown high or low, so long as the ball is within a reasonable catching radius. The probability of an INT is higher if the QB throws high. So the QB is taught to throw low. Simple.

 

3. You don't understand what high-pointing is. That is a term used to describe what the RECEIVER does, not what the QB does. High-pointing describes the receiving jumping to catch a pass at the highest point off the ground possible. By high-pointing, the receiver to reduce or eliminate the number of defenders who can make a play on the ball by virture of the receiver's height and jumping ability. It's a technique that is applied on passes with air uner them, because it's only those passes that give the receiver options as to where to catch the ball. The ball is coming down, the receiver could try to catch the ball when it is 6 feet, 8 feet or 10 feet off the ground. The best play is to high point it, to catch it 10 feet off the ground. A receiver running downfield has a chance to do that by jumping earlier rather than continuing to run and letting the ball fall to him.

 

This wasn't one of those situations. Clay was running across the field and the throw was going downfield. Clay's only option was to catch the ball at the point wher his path and the ball's path intersected.

 

High pointing is irrelevant. And it has nothing to do with how Taylor should throw the ball on this kind of play.

 

4. You say the point of having big targets is so they can out-jump defenders. That's true. But that doesn't mean that all throws to the end zone are supposed to be thrown high. The ball has to be thrown where the probabilities are best. See above.

 

5. You say throwing high to receivers in the end zone is a common practice. That's also true. But that is true when the receivers are deep in the end zone and the defenders are in front of the receiver. It is not true when the receiver is in the front of the end zone and the defenders are behind him. See above.

 

Rephrasing an old proverb, Abraham Lincoln once said "better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."

 

Thanks.

 

I agree with this. Tackles don't pile up stats, and they can have very good games without ever being visible to most of us unsophisticated viewers of the game. It takes some real discipline to see what the DTs are doing while watching the games. Kyle's play was easy because the stunt put him outside the DE and then running free in the backfield.

 

The Jets had so little success running the ball, Hughes, Dareus, Kyle and Shaq had to have played well. They either were making tackles or making it possible for linebackers and DBs to make tackles.

 

1. Ditto, I should too, but like you I enjoy the back and forth.

 

2. I take no offense in your conviction or arguing back, so all good, and hopefully you don't either. If you come back at me with reasons and logic (even though you will see I greatly disagree with your logic) then you have my respect.

 

3. I am using capitals to emphasize words, not to imply yelling. I get all cap words look like yelling, I just find it easier than going back and bolding or underlining words, so know its not me yelling just highlighting.

 

But...your assessment and understanding of football as you say, is completely wrong in this instance.

 

1. What are you talking about? Everything you wrote is factually wrong. One, High Pointing is not what you do when the defender is IN FRONT of the WR between the target and the QB, thats a high risk play. Teams spend big money on big targets so they can grab passes above the reach of defenders in the end zone, the sheer fact we arguing about how you seem to think throwing high in the end zone is not only wrong but discouraged is literally mind blowing to me.

 

2. No reason to throw high? For one, it was NOT that high, so this over exaggeration of how high it was has become comical. It was a ball that hit BOTH hands directly in FRONT of his face. You act like this was the pass Welker missed in the SB when the Giants upset the Pats where he leaped as high as he could and fully extended his arms above his head and couldn't quite hang on. This pass was no where near to "high" on a target Clays size.

 

More importantly, how can you say no reason? There was literally an OL and DL between Clay and TT, he threw to the right of them as the OL was guiding the DL to his left.

 

3. I actually fully understand high pointing and I don't think you do.

 

4. Who is taking about ALL the throws, we are talking about ONE throw where Clay was open enough to get him the ball in position to score. And again, the ball was not that high in the first place.

 

5. Literally every word of your 5th point is so inaccurate I am not even going to address it.

 

I think its time to just agree to disagree on this...there is no amount of excuses anyone can give me to allow the blame to fall on TT rather than Clay on this play. And that is not about defending TT, its squarely about the fact that it was inexcusable play by Clay. You can NOT at any time have receiving targets only capable of catching passes in certain spots. If their catch radius consists of passes to the gut, CUT THEM immediately. That is NOT how the NFL works...no QB in the NFL hits the exact spot they throw on every throw...if the ball hits the square in the hands of the receiving target and they fail to make the catch, its THEIR fault without question.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Alphadawg7

[Figster]

 

1. Ditto, I should too, but like you I enjoy the back and forth.

 

2. I take no offense in your conviction or arguing back, so all good, and hopefully you don't either. If you come back at me with reasons and logic (even though you will see I greatly disagree with your logic) then you have my respect.

 

3. I am using capitals to emphasize words, not to imply yelling. I get all cap words look like yelling, I just find it easier than going back and bolding or underlining words, so know its not me yelling just highlighting.

 

But...your assessment and understanding of football as you say, is completely wrong in this instance.

 

1. What are you talking about? Everything you wrote is factually wrong. One, High Pointing is not what you do when the defender is IN FRONT of the WR between the target and the QB, thats a high risk play. Teams spend big money on big targets so they can grab passes above the reach of defenders in the end zone, the sheer fact we arguing about how you seem to think throwing high in the end zone is not only wrong but discouraged is literally mind blowing to me.

 

2. No reason to throw high? For one, it was NOT that high, so this over exaggeration of how high it was has become comical. It was a ball that hit BOTH hands directly in FRONT of his face. You act like this was the pass Welker missed in the SB when the Giants upset the Pats where he leaped as high as he could and fully extended his arms above his head and couldn't quite hang on. This pass was no where near to "high" on a target Clays size.

 

More importantly, how can you say no reason? There was literally an OL and DL between Clay and TT, he threw to the right of them as the OL was guiding the DL to his left.

 

3. I actually fully understand high pointing and I don't think you do.

 

4. Who is taking about ALL the throws, we are talking about ONE throw where Clay was open enough to get him the ball in position to score. And again, the ball was not that high in the first place.

 

5. Literally every word of your 5th point is so inaccurate I am not even going to address it.

 

I think its time to just agree to disagree on this...there is no amount of excuses anyone can give me to allow the blame to fall on TT rather than Clay on this play. And that is not about defending TT, its squarely about the fact that it was inexcusable play by Clay. You can NOT at any time have receiving targets only capable of catching passes in certain spots. If their catch radius consists of passes to the gut, CUT THEM immediately. That is NOT how the NFL works...no QB in the NFL hits the exact spot they throw on every throw...if the ball hits the square in the hands of the receiving target and they fail to make the catch, its THEIR fault without question.

Ditto on your point 5, (I'm in agreement with OP/Shaw)

Edited September 13, 2017 by Figster

[Bills Pimpin']

Zay is open because the DB is watching Tyrod go in throwing motion to Clay. This is the problem with people trying to analyze all-22 and don't know crap.

Here is a still. Tyrod about to release the ball. Zay hasnt come on screen yet which means he is still bunched in the corner with the DB. I stole this off the board gif so the quality sucks, but I can see this from a tiny freaking square for christ sake. Stop watching all-22.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's another still for you. TT hasn't released the ball yet and the DB is already committed to the TE. Zay Jones has just started to streak across the back of the endzone. This is not a difficult play -- in fact it's considered QB 101. You look off the defender by staring down the TE and toss a gimmie TD over the middle. There's no possible way for that defender to cover the WR if executed properly. Of course, TT stares down the TE and then throws high and slightly behind him (when the ball should have been thrown low in a place that Clay and only Clay could possibly catch it). This is why people criticize TT for not being an anticipatory passer. Again, this is basic stuff here and with that protection every QB in the league should be able to connect on this. Maybe next time you should try putting down the pom-pom's before watching tape.

 

 

I agree with this. A better quarterback would have realized Zay would be open by looking off Clay (which he was doing) before he made the "commitment" to throw to Clay. Instead he stared down Clay and the defense was able to react and break it up and pick it off. I am not saying that a better throw would not have been a completion or that Clay should have caught the ball thrown; both of those could be argued either way. I also don't think it was a horrible play by Tyrod. But I do think a GREAT QB sees the defense commitment earlier and anticipates Zay sprinting across the back of the endzone AWAY from the 3 defenders for an easy completion.

[Alphadawg7]

 

 

 

 

I agree with this. A better quarterback would have realized Zay would be open by looking off Clay (which he was doing) before he made the "commitment" to throw to Clay. Instead he stared down Clay and the defense was able to react and break it up and pick it off. I am not saying that a better throw would not have been a completion or that Clay should have caught the ball thrown; both of those could be argued either way. I also don't think it was a horrible play by Tyrod. But I do think a GREAT QB sees the defense commitment earlier and anticipates Zay sprinting across the back of the endzone AWAY from the 3 defenders for an easy completion.

 

Huh? Clay wasn't even his first read and in this picture he is not staring down Clay he is literally in motion to throw the pass to Clay. You have to look at your target you are throwing to. And again, Clay was open, so this is in no way a bad read in the first place. Defender did not come close to touching the ball, it went off Clays hands.

[Shaw66]

Alpha -

 

You make an interesting point about the throwing lane. When I look at the replay, it's pretty clear that Glenn and his man are right in the throwing lane. Taylor COULDN'T throw it low with any zip on the ball.

 

What Taylor should have done, it's easy to see in retrospect, is step up into the pocket instead of taking a step back and to his left. That additional drop left Glenn right in the line of the throw. If he'd stepped up a step, the throwing lane was wide open.

 

I say easy to see in retrospect, because at full speed, under fire, stepping up isn't the obvious move. I've been one who's advocated deeper drops for Tyrod, so that he can see the rush and escape more easily, but dropping deeper got him in a little trouble here.

 

Given this view, I'd say Taylor knew he was taking a risk and let the pass go. The conservative move would have been to throw it away and take the three points, but I believe you can't learn to make the hard throws unless you take the risk and suffer the consequences when it doesn't work out. This was a good risk to take - 7 vs 3 points. Taylor watched the film this week and learned some things from that play.

 

Huh? Clay wasn't even his first read and in this picture he is not staring down Clay he is literally in motion to throw the pass to Clay. You have to look at your target you are throwing to. And again, Clay was open, so this is in no way a bad read in the first place. Defender did not come close to touching the ball, it went off Clays hands.

You're right about this decision making. Clay wasn't the first read, and Clay was open. If he wasn't going to throw to Clay, he needed to begin scrambling. Not likely he could run it in, and it isn't clear where he was going to find an open receiver. Throwing to Clay was the right decision.

[Bills Pimpin']

 

Huh? Clay wasn't even his first read and in this picture he is not staring down Clay he is literally in motion to throw the pass to Clay. You have to look at your target you are throwing to. And again, Clay was open, so this is in no way a bad read in the first place. Defender did not come close to touching the ball, it went off Clays hands.

 

 

Alpha -

 

You make an interesting point about the throwing lane. When I look at the replay, it's pretty clear that Glenn and his man are right in the throwing lane. Taylor COULDN'T throw it low with any zip on the ball.

 

What Taylor should have done, it's easy to see in retrospect, is step up into the pocket instead of taking a step back and to his left. That additional drop left Glenn right in the line of the throw. If he'd stepped up a step, the throwing lane was wide open.

 

I say easy to see in retrospect, because at full speed, under fire, stepping up isn't the obvious move. I've been one who's advocated deeper drops for Tyrod, so that he can see the rush and escape more easily, but dropping deeper got him in a little trouble here.

 

Given this view, I'd say Taylor knew he was taking a risk and let the pass go. The conservative move would have been to throw it away and take the three points, but I believe you can't learn to make the hard throws unless you take the risk and suffer the consequences when it doesn't work out. This was a good risk to take - 7 vs 3 points. Taylor watched the film this week and learned some things from that play.

You're right about this decision making. Clay wasn't the first read, and Clay was open. If he wasn't going to throw to Clay, he needed to begin scrambling. Not likely he could run it in, and it isn't clear where he was going to find an open receiver. Throwing to Clay was the right decision.

We will have to agree to disagree. I don't ever think he was ever not throwing to Clay on that play regardless of whether it was his first read or not which is debatable. I have no idea how you could know with conviction that it wasn't. Also, IMO Clay was open immediately after his cut and maybe a step after. He was a little late on this throw. The ball should have been in Clays hands when Tyrod threw the ball. And the throw was a bit off. And as I said before, I don't think he anticipated Zay being open a mere split second later. I think if he throws the ball at the I in "BILLS" Zay catches it for an easy TD. Obviously this is nitpicking and I said the play Tyrod made wasn't that bad (at worst an incomplete pass if in Clays body), but 90% of this board conversation is if Tyrod can be a franchise QB and this play is an illustration why he can't.

[metzelaars_lives]

Ehh Rex Ryan is pretty stupid.

[Alphadawg7]

 

 

We will have to agree to disagree. I don't ever think he was ever not throwing to Clay on that play regardless of whether it was his first read or not which is debatable. I have no idea how you could know with conviction that it wasn't. Also, IMO Clay was open immediately after his cut and maybe a step after. He was a little late on this throw. The ball should have been in Clays hands when Tyrod threw the ball. And the throw was a bit off. And as I said before, I don't think he anticipated Zay being open a mere split second later. I think if he throws the ball at the I in "BILLS" Zay catches it for an easy TD. Obviously this is nitpicking and I said the play Tyrod made wasn't that bad (at worst an incomplete pass if in Clays body), but 90% of this board conversation is if Tyrod can be a franchise QB and this play is an illustration why he can't.

 

Zay was not remotely close to open when TT was throwing the pass, and Zay only became open because TT began to throw to TT. So for sake of discussion, ZJ was not a factor in this play at all in terms of being an open target.

 

Regardless if he was always going to throw to Clay or not (all speculation on who his first read was or intended target is as none of us know), he put the ball right in Clays 2 hands. People can the make the case it could have been a second sooner or in a slightly easier place to catch it all they want, but thats not how the NFL works. Rogers, Brady, Bress, Ryan, Montanna don't put the ball in the exact most ideal spot on every throw.

 

Again, if Clays dependency on catching that pass relies on the easiest and simplest ball placement then Clay should be cut immediately because that is not how the NFL works. You must make that catch on a 7 yard pass that hits you in both hands in the end zone. That pass was fully in the catch radius of Clay, and if that is not in Clays catch radius he should not be our starting TE.

 

What baffles me the most is this is the kind of throw people have been clamoring for TT to make...to not just throw it away, run when someone is open, or be too safe...they want him to fire a strike and take the opportunities that are there. He did that, Clay whiffed and yet the excuses keep coming for Clay and now people are complaining TT made that throw.

Alpha -

 

You make an interesting point about the throwing lane. When I look at the replay, it's pretty clear that Glenn and his man are right in the throwing lane. Taylor COULDN'T throw it low with any zip on the ball.

 

What Taylor should have done, it's easy to see in retrospect, is step up into the pocket instead of taking a step back and to his left. That additional drop left Glenn right in the line of the throw. If he'd stepped up a step, the throwing lane was wide open.

 

I say easy to see in retrospect, because at full speed, under fire, stepping up isn't the obvious move. I've been one who's advocated deeper drops for Tyrod, so that he can see the rush and escape more easily, but dropping deeper got him in a little trouble here.

 

Given this view, I'd say Taylor knew he was taking a risk and let the pass go. The conservative move would have been to throw it away and take the three points, but I believe you can't learn to make the hard throws unless you take the risk and suffer the consequences when it doesn't work out. This was a good risk to take - 7 vs 3 points. Taylor watched the film this week and learned some things from that play.

You're right about this decision making. Clay wasn't the first read, and Clay was open. If he wasn't going to throw to Clay, he needed to begin scrambling. Not likely he could run it in, and it isn't clear where he was going to find an open receiver. Throwing to Clay was the right decision.

 

Im glad you see that now, but I still think its the right throw and one I want him to make every time. I just expect Clay or whoever the target is to not let it go off both hands into a defender. That pass has to be in the catch radius of the receiving target at the NFL level, especially a starter making as much as Clay does.

[Shaw66]

 

Zay was not remotely close to open when TT was throwing the pass, and Zay only became open because TT began to throw to TT. So for sake of discussion, ZJ was not a factor in this play at all in terms of being an open target.

 

Regardless if he was always going to throw to Clay or not (all speculation on who his first read was or intended target is as none of us know), he put the ball right in Clays 2 hands. People can the make the case it could have been a second sooner or in a slightly easier place to catch it all they want, but thats not how the NFL works. Rogers, Brady, Bress, Ryan, Montanna don't put the ball in the exact most ideal spot on every throw.

 

Again, if Clays dependency on catching that pass relies on the easiest and simplest ball placement then Clay should be cut immediately because that is not how the NFL works. You must make that catch on a 7 yard pass that hits you in both hands in the end zone. That pass was fully in the catch radius of Clay, and if that is not in Clays catch radius he should not be our starting TE.

 

What baffles me the most is this is the kind of throw people have been clamoring for TT to make...to not just throw it away, run when someone is open, or be too safe...they want him to fire a strike and take the opportunities that are there. He did that, Clay whiffed and yet the excuses keep coming for Clay and now people are complaining TT made that throw.

 

Im glad you see that now, but I still think its the right throw and one I want him to make every time. I just expect Clay or whoever the target is to not let it go off both hands into a defender. That pass has to be in the catch radius of the receiving target at the NFL level, especially a starter making as much as Clay does.

I really think you aren't seeing the catch of that ball correctly at all. It was higher than you keep saying, and it was behind him. As I've said before, it may have been that Taylor expected Clay to stop running and Clay didn't. It wasn't an easy catch, and unless your tight end is Jimmy Graham, it isn't surprising that the tight end didn't catch it. Should have, I agree, but it wasn't a gimme.

 

I'm now more convinced that the whole play was a Tyrod problem. Shouldn't have drifted back - should have moved up to create a throwing lane. And should have thrown it earlier. Those are all things TT has been accused of - not managing the pocket properly and being slow to pull the trigger.

 

As you said, I think, long ago in this thread, TT will say it was on him and CC will say it was on him, and I think they're both right.

[Alphadawg7]

I really think you aren't seeing the catch of that ball correctly at all. It was higher than you keep saying, and it was behind him. As I've said before, it may have been that Taylor expected Clay to stop running and Clay didn't. It wasn't an easy catch, and unless your tight end is Jimmy Graham, it isn't surprising that the tight end didn't catch it. Should have, I agree, but it wasn't a gimme.

 

I'm now more convinced that the whole play was a Tyrod problem. Shouldn't have drifted back - should have moved up to create a throwing lane. And should have thrown it earlier. Those are all things TT has been accused of - not managing the pocket properly and being slow to pull the trigger.

 

As you said, I think, long ago in this thread, TT will say it was on him and CC will say it was on him, and I think they're both right.

 

I have watched it many times, and that catch is no different than any back shoulder catch. And again, if that catch is not in his catch radius, then he should not be our starting TE. There is no excuse for it, you can't just hope every throw is the easiest possible ball placement, that isn't how the NFL works.

 

If Rogers makes that throw and it goes off Bennetts hands you would all be blaming Bennett. There is no validation for any receiving target in the NFL to have both hands on the ball, facing the direction the ball is coming, and have his hands right in front of his face and still not catch it. It was a 7 yard pass, not like he had to track this ball 40 yards in the air and change his position.

 

Its all good bro, I have enjoyed the conversation despite being on opposite fences on this one. In this particular case, we can just agree to disagree, I just could not possibly disagree more with the excuses you and a couple are making for Clay. There is a zero percent chance I want a TE who is NOT expected to catch that pass. If you truly believe he is not expected to catch that pass and that it was just too difficult for Clay, then we should all start threads demanding his immediate release. I would wager any amount of money that no coach, assistant coach, or positional coach is going to give Clay the pass some people want to give him.

 

But again...all good man...no love lost. Good convo none the less

Edited September 14, 2017 by Alphadawg7

[oldmanfan]

Perhaps the lesson to be learned here is that placing so much emphasis on one pass might be a little bit of overkill.

[Alphadawg7]

Perhaps the lesson to be learned here is that placing so much emphasis on one pass might be a little bit of overkill.

 

Ha, true...but its not very often where a good convo stays on point with good back and forth around here. Too often it turns to nonsense and 15 different topics all at once, usually about TT or the Trades lately lol. I rather enjoyed it actually.

[oldmanfan]

 

Ha, true...but its not very often where a good convo stays on point with good back and forth around here. Too often it turns to nonsense and 15 different topics all at once, usually about TT or the Trades lately lol. I rather enjoyed it actually.

. I did as well. Have always liked Shaw's analysis and your's was also well thought out. I wonder if coaches ever debate a play like you guys did?

[CommonCents]

. I did as well. Have always liked Shaw's analysis and your's was also well thought out. I wonder if coaches ever debate a play like you guys did?

The coach knows what was supposed to happen. If Glenn was supposed to push his defender and create a throwing lane for TT they are probably focused on fixing that. Taylor drifted left and wasted a good lane so that would also be mention.

 

Good play call just have to execute better. Bottom line is he hit a pass catcher in the hands so Clay will admit he needs to make that play.

[oldmanfan]

The coach knows what was supposed to happen. If Glenn was supposed to push his defender and create a throwing lane for TT they are probably focused on fixing that. Taylor drifted left and wasted a good lane so that would also be mention.

 

Good play call just have to execute better. Bottom line is he hit a pass catcher in the hands so Clay will admit he needs to make that play.

Hadn't considered Glenn's role in this.

[Alphadawg7]

. I did as well. Have always liked Shaw's analysis and your's was also well thought out. I wonder if coaches ever debate a play like you guys did?

 

Good question, only coaches inside a film room will know that answer. If I had to guess, I would think it happens from time to time, but probably not very often because they will have all the info we don't have to know what went right or wrong on the play. Like who the hot read was, the type of throw that was called, was there an audible, etc etc.

 

I would think they would be less hard on TT since these are the throws they want to see from him, less conservative and give our guys a chance to make plays. I am fairly certain they would be harder on Clay because he just has to make that play and not only did he not make the catch, but he cost us a scoring opportunity with the turnover in a divisional game to kill a great drive.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Alphadawg7

[yungmack]

That's generally true but it's also the difference between average play and great play. Taylor's job is to be accurate. He wasn't rushed. He missed by 4 or 5 feet too high. That is not NFL accuracy at the highest level.

And his job is to be sure that whatever else happens there us not a turnover. He put it in a position that led to a turnover.

Yes, everyone makes mistakes, but these guys are measured against perfection. Taylor wasn't perfect here.

Please just stop with this quibbling at the margins. So the pass was a little high and a little behind Clay. So what? That is far more the rule with every QB than the "perfectly thrown pass."

 

The niggling on TT's "shortcomings" includes someone posting earlier in the thread that he should have gotten the ball out a 1/4 of a second quicker! What?

 

And "the Zay was open" critics seem not to have noticed he was actually well covered...until TT committed to Clay. The defender switching to Clay is what opened up Zay. Considering the pettiness and harping on miniscule flaws, imagine he'd thrown to Zay, with a defender in front of him. The odds of a TD were low and that of an interception were high. The critics surely would be screaming that Clay was wide open and TT stinks.

 

The guy can't win with some of you. I wonder why that is.

[Figster]

The coach knows what was supposed to happen. If Glenn was supposed to push his defender and create a throwing lane for TT they are probably focused on fixing that. Taylor drifted left and wasted a good lane so that would also be mention.

 

Good play call just have to execute better. Bottom line is he hit a pass catcher in the hands so Clay will admit he needs to make that play.

I agree,

 

You could probably dissect any play and find something that fits your narrative.

[Shaw66]

Please just stop with this quibbling at the margins. So the pass was a little high and a little behind Clay. So what? That is far more the rule with every QB than the "perfectly thrown pass."

 

The niggling on TT's "shortcomings" includes someone posting earlier in the thread that he should have gotten the ball out a 1/4 of a second quicker! What?

 

And "the Zay was open" critics seem not to have noticed he was actually well covered...until TT committed to Clay. The defender switching to Clay is what opened up Zay. Considering the pettiness and harping on miniscule flaws, imagine he'd thrown to Zay, with a defender in front of him. The odds of a TD were low and that of an interception were high. The critics surely would be screaming that Clay was wide open and TT stinks.

 

The guy can't win with some of you. I wonder why that is.

I'm a Tyrod fan. And I think, and I said, he had a good game.

 

But football games generally turn on five or six key plays, and the interception was one of those plays. It's worth discussion.

 

And in the case of the Bills, it's worth discussion because most people agree that the best way to build a good team is to have a really good quarterback. Whether Taylor can be a really good quarterback turns on little things. Among the things people think needs to improve are accuracy on short balls, pocket management and quick decision making and throwing. Missing by 5 feet on a pass 10 yards down field is a big miss. Drifting back and left and thereby missing the throwing lane is a problem. Throwing late because he doesn't have a good throwing lane is a problem.

 

I'm grateful for the discussion here, even if it did bother you, because it helped me understand what happened on the play. I still don't agree with everyone about what happened on the play, but my understanding of Tyrod's play has been enhanced.

[Bills Pimpin']

Please just stop with this quibbling at the margins. So the pass was a little high and a little behind Clay. So what? That is far more the rule with every QB than the "perfectly thrown pass."

 

The niggling on TT's "shortcomings" includes someone posting earlier in the thread that he should have gotten the ball out a 1/4 of a second quicker! What?

 

And "the Zay was open" critics seem not to have noticed he was actually well covered...until TT committed to Clay. The defender switching to Clay is what opened up Zay. Considering the pettiness and harping on miniscule flaws, imagine he'd thrown to Zay, with a defender in front of him. The odds of a TD were low and that of an interception were high. The critics surely would be screaming that Clay was wide open and TT stinks.

 

The guy can't win with some of you. I wonder why that is.

Wowzers, this is a little over the top. It just so happens that this specific play has a lot of interesting aspects of what many people discuss about Tyrod's deficiencies which keep him from being a $50 million dollar franchise QB in the NFL. It's fun to analyze the frickin play.

 

I will say it again, I don't believe it was a terrible play by the QB, but to put zero fault on him is giving too much credit. It was an average play by an above average quarterback. I mean the dude said it wasn't a great throw in his press conference ffs. Personally I think Zay would have been open a half second later and Clay was open a half second earlier. The entire play only took 5 seconds up to the point Tyrod through the ball.

 

And yes I am nitpicking because Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Ben Rothlisberger, Matt Ryan, etc score a touchdown to either Clay or Jones on that play 95% of the time. The difference between a franchise QB and TT is razor thin and I personally think, unlike others on this board, that Tyrod is getting closer to that point.

 

Don't be so sensi....

[Alphadawg7]

I'm a Tyrod fan. And I think, and I said, he had a good game.

 

But football games generally turn on five or six key plays, and the interception was one of those plays. It's worth discussion.

 

And in the case of the Bills, it's worth discussion because most people agree that the best way to build a good team is to have a really good quarterback. Whether Taylor can be a really good quarterback turns on little things. Among the things people think needs to improve are accuracy on short balls, pocket management and quick decision making and throwing. Missing by 5 feet on a pass 10 yards down field is a big miss. Drifting back and left and thereby missing the throwing lane is a problem. Throwing late because he doesn't have a good throwing lane is a problem.

 

I'm grateful for the discussion here, even if it did bother you, because it helped me understand what happened on the play. I still don't agree with everyone about what happened on the play, but my understanding of Tyrod's play has been enhanced.

 

Not to beat a dead horse here as we already agreed to disagree hahaha...but where did you come up with this "missed by 5 feet" stat? Thats is about an 80% exaggeration. Do you realize how big 5 feet is? I mean again, clay got both hands on the ball and in front of his face while facing the direction the ball was coming. I mean if the ball is foot more left it hits Clay in the numbers.

[SoCal Deek]

Jumping in here late, but that particular interception is clearly on Clay, and virtually certain he would say so. The receivers are supposed to bring those in! The QB has a million things he's doing. The receiver has one! Catch the ball!

[MyHorseAteTheKid]

The Rockpile Review – by Shaw66

 

Off and Running

 

Pro football coaches aren’t stupid. For all his faults, Rex Ryan wasn’t stupid, and Sean McDermott isn’t stupid, either. When you have LeSean McCoy, you run the football. When you need insurance, you call Geico.

 

The Bills came out of the 2017 starting gate doing what they’ve done best since 2015 – give the ball to Shady. Run it left, run it right, run it up the middle. And when you need to pass, fake the run, look downfield, then throw it to the running back. And why not? Until the opponent stops it, it’s a good way to win some football games. Not enough to win a lot, but it’s a start.

 

The Bills handled the Jets easily at New Era Field Sunday to record their first win of the season. A couple of first-half mistakes kept the game closer than it should have been, but there was little doubt that the Bills were in control of the game from the start. The only question was whether the Bills would make enough mistakes to let the win slip away. This is a new season and a new era, and answer, at least on Sunday, was “we don’t make mistakes.”

 

So what’s new with the new-era Bills? Not the fundamental offensive approach, that’s for sure. The Bills are going to run until they can’t.

 

Beyond that, a lot was new. For instance:

 

· Offensive crispness. The Bills get into and out of the huddle, get to the line, get set and go. No confusion about where to line up, no wasted timeouts. Just call the play, run the play, move the chains. It’s football without the screw-ups.

 

· Short-passing game. Finally, a passing attack that works, that forces the defense to make choices and allows the quarterback to take advantage of the choices the defense makes. All day long, Tyrod Taylor could find open receivers and make throws.

 

· Penalties. What happened to all the penalties? These new-era Bills seem to have decided they want to lead the league in something other than going backward.

 

· Defensive crispness. No more defenders confused about who’s on the field and who’s off (except Shaq once), no more defenders scrambling to get into position before the snap, no more defenders looking at each other and saying “I thought you had him.” These guys know what the defense is and where to go.

 

· Defensive execution. Missed assignments? Very few. Missed tackles? Very few. Gang-tackling? A lot of it. In the NFL, offenses are too complicated and the players are too good for the defense to stop the offense all the time, but this was a defense that played under control, didn’t give up the big play and forced the offense to work for everything it got.

 

Of course, there’s no reason to get carried away, because this was the New York Jets, and only time will tell if the Jets actually are an NFL football. The Jets did have a pretty effective defense last season, and the Bills moved the ball consistently against the Jets all day. So that’s a good sign. Still, it was the Jets, with a McCown at quarterback (you think offensive coordinator John Morton saw Taylor making plays and didn’t wish he had Geno Smith?).

 

Some observations from New Era Field:

 

1. The Bills are all about One Buffalo. The message was clear from the player introductions, which didn’t happen. When it was time to take the field, the entire team came through the tunnel, whooping it up together. One team, One Buffalo.

 

2. Jordan Matthews is BIG. Looks almost like a tight end. If you want a sign that the Bills are committed to the short passing game, one look at him will do it. The Bills will go deep, not with deep speed but by forcing the defense to play so close to the line of scrimmage that I could get deep.

 

3. Kind of ironic that each of Ronald Darby and the guy the Bills got to replace him, EJ Gaines, were injured week one. I hope both get back soon.

 

4. As predicted, we didn’t see a lot of blitzing. Four guys trying to get to the QB. They got only occasional pressure, the best forcing the game-ending interception. Bills could use some improvement there, but it’s a tough job.

 

4a. How about Kyle Williams on the stunt around the left defensive end, looping around to pressure the QB then continuing upfield to tackle the receiver for a short gain? That man has been one special football player for a long time.

5. The run defense was excellent. The Jets gave up trying to run the ball. It’s a passing league for a reason, and almost any team can have some success throwing it. The Jets had some success, but having forced the Jets into a one-dimensional game, the Bills made more than enough plays in the passing game to keep the Jets under control.

 

6. Nice half-time show honoring the players from the comeback game. Lots of video highlights (and not just at half-time), a taped presentation from Frank Reich. The Bills singled out Kenneth Davis and Don Beebe for getting the TDs that got things going. Then Andre Reed, who gave a nice little talk about how it was One Buffalo then and One Buffalo now. They closed with Steve Christie saying all the players love Buffalo and thanking Buffalo for loving them. It was well done, and a far cry from the darkest days, when the Bills canceled a half-time Hall-of-Fame ring presentation for Ralph Wilson for fear that he’d be booed off the field.

 

7. Tyrod Taylor. Let the debate begin. What happened to the guy who can’t or won’t throw over the middle? What happened to the guy who can’t or won’t throw to tight end? What happened to the guy who is indecisive and won’t get the ball out quickly? What happened to the guy who isn’t accurate on short passes? What happened to the guy who can’t play from the pocket? Coaching and effective offensive game planning, that’s what. Taylor did it all Sunday. He’s an excellent athlete, he can make all the throws, and his running ability made him particularly effective. He didn’t leave the pocket early, but when it was time to go, his athletic ability got him out of the pocket, usually to buy time for a throw downfield, sometimes for a nice gain running it himself. There was a lot of good decision-making on display (except trying to force the ball into Clay when he was double covered). Some will say he’s no more than a game manager, but when he plays like he did on Sunday and the Bills win, it’s hard to complain too much.

 

8. I guess plenty of fans came into the game misunderstanding who Mike Tolbert is. They looked at his size and concluded he’s a short-yardage back. Well, yesterday they were introduced to Mike Tolbert, running back. The guy is a player, not necessarily every down, but he can move and he can make cuts. He’s a nice change of pace to Shady.

 

9. Did I mention Shady? Bills fans have had plenty of disappointment over a half century, but they haven’t been disappointed at running back. What franchise has put on the field the likes of Cookie Gilchrist, OJ Simpson, Joe Cribbs, Thurman Thomas and now LeSean McCoy. He got stuffed a lot of times on Sunday, but he was already to take another shot. As usual, he and we were rewarded. I think he missed a few opportunities to cut back behind the wide zone blocking, but he won’t miss them for long. Love it.

 

10. Not to close on a downer, but the Bills haven’t won the fans back, not yet. The stadium was loud occasionally but not consistently. There wasn’t a lot of vocal support for the defense, not the every-play kind of support we used to hear. Once in a while in big situations, but none of the persistent noise that really upsets opposing offenses. Post-game, it seemed like the Bills had lost. Very little celebrating, cheering or chanting as the fans left the stadium. Walking through the parking lots, I had to wonder whether these were Bills fans after a win or a bunch of folks heading home from Topps with the groceries. (In some ways it’s a shame the NFL and the Bills cracked down on raucous tailgating in the Bills’ lots.) If the Bills win in Carolina next week, there should be some old-school fandemonium at New Era when the Broncos come to town. We need it and this team deserves it.

 

Yes, it was the Jets, but you play the schedule you were given. The Bills did a lot right, and showed they have a lot to work on. It was a good start to a new era.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

The Rockpile Review is written to share the passion we have for the Buffalo Bills. That passion was born in the Rockpile; its parents were everyday people of western New York who translated their dedication to a full day’s hard work and simple pleasures into love for a pro football team.

Enjoyed reading this.. Thank You!!!

Enjoyed reading this... Thank You!!!

[Shaw66]

 

Not to beat a dead horse here as we already agreed to disagree hahaha...but where did you come up with this "missed by 5 feet" stat? Thats is about an 80% exaggeration. Do you realize how big 5 feet is? I mean again, clay got both hands on the ball and in front of his face while facing the direction the ball was coming. I mean if the ball is foot more left it hits Clay in the numbers.

Five feet comes from this:

 

Clay jumped. The ball hit his hands above his head, not in front of his face. If a 6'3" guy jumps and puts his hands over his head to contact the ball, his hands are 8 feet off the ground even if he only goes 6 or 8 inches airborne.. The throw to that receiver is supposed to be down, at his waist. His waist is about 3 feet off the ground. 8 feet (where the ball was) - 3 feet (where the ball should have been) = 5 feet. That's how I got to 5 feet.

 

As I've said in this discussion, the continuing review of this play has caused me to realize that because the passing lane was blocked, Taylor COULDN'T have thrown it low - he had to throw over Glenn and his man. That tells me that Taylor's inaccuracy on that play was not the result of a mechanical failure - he threw it the only way he could. The problem, then, wasn't inaccuracy - it was his failure to maneuver in the pocket to open the throwing lane. He had time to do that after he'd identified Clay as the right target on the play.

 

Now, as I've also said, I'm a Taylor fan and I continue to think that he can be the long-term solution at QB. I find this play interesting because that skill, stepping up and/or sliding in the pocket to access the best throwing lanes, is something that we see the top QBs do. Brees, particularly, is a master at it, because given his size, his downfield vision is more limited than some of the larger QBs. Taylor has the same limitation and needs the same skill.

 

There's another important aspect of that play that has been mentioned in this thread - risk taking. Taylor's stats to this point in his career are very good, in a significant part, by his low interception numbers. He's created those numbers by not taking chances. That's not good enough - the best QBs are risk takers; they learn when to take chances. If you never take them, you never learn how to take them. This play was one of those plays. I have no way of knowing, but I would guess that last season Taylor would not have thrown that ball - he didn't have the look at Clay that he wanted, he didn't have much more time, and he didn't have any other good options (like you, I don't think Jones was an option at all). Last season he would have thrown it away or run. Sunday Taylor risked three points by deciding to throw, and in fact he lost the three points. But I commend him for taking the risk, because he has to learn. I'd guess he knew it was a tough throw, he threw it about as well as he could given the passing lane problem, and he gave Clay a decent chance to catch the ball.

 

I really think that what Taylor and the coaches talked about Monday or Tuesday was how to improve his ability to move around in the pocket - how to recognize opportunities and how to fight the instinct to back up. On this play, a half step forward instead of a half step back would have made it an easy throw.

Enjoyed reading this.. Thank You!!!

Enjoyed reading this... Thank You!!!

You're welcome.

 

You're welcome.

[Buffalo716]

Thanks for the years of posting these Shaw

[mead107]

So TT was a little high. Clay still had his hands on it. How many passes did Brady miss?

 

1 pass get over it.

[Shaw66]

So TT was a little high. Clay still had his hands on it. How many passes did Brady miss?

 

1 pass get over it.

It was one of the most important plays in the game. It was the kind of play that separates the good teams from the mediocre teams. The Bills failed to execute.

 

It's worth talking about. If you can't understand why it's worth talking or you're not interested, don't join in.

[Rico]

Love your OP, Shaw, GREAT read!

[transplantbillsfan]

Geez. That pass got some miles on it, huh?

 

I get the timing argument. Taylor could have thrown it a little earlier. But no one seems to know if Jones or Clay was the 1st read. Looks like Jones to me, but I don't know. Do you?

 

If Jones was the 1st read, we're picking over likely a fraction of a second when Taylor should have thrown the ball earlier. We're fans so we can nitpick like that. But maybe it should just make us appreciate how damn difficult the position is...?

 

And regardless, isn't it still something Taylor seems to be progressing on? Throwing over the middle and going through reads is something absolutely no QB gets 100% right, including Brady.

 

Seems good we're nitpicking this.

 

 

However, Clay should have and could have caught that ball. Last year in the 2nd NE game I spent a long time and a number of posts critiquing a gorgeous bomb that hit Clay right in the hand that he couldn't pull in largely because I think he lacks good hands combined with ball awareness. And that's what came into play here, again.

 

Is blame supposed to be adjusted based on the WRs or should all NFL WRs/TEs be expected to catch footballs that don't involve acrobatic feats?

[Magox]

Geez. That pass got some miles on it, huh?

 

I get the timing argument. Taylor could have thrown it a little earlier. But no one seems to know if Jones or Clay was the 1st read. Looks like Jones to me, but I don't know. Do you?

 

If Jones was the 1st read, we're picking over likely a fraction of a second when Taylor should have thrown the ball earlier. We're fans so we can nitpick like that. But maybe it should just make us appreciate how damn difficult the position is...?

 

And regardless, isn't it still something Taylor seems to be progressing on? Throwing over the middle and going through reads is something absolutely no QB gets 100% right, including Brady.

 

Seems good we're nitpicking this.

 

 

However, Clay should have and could have caught that ball. Last year in the 2nd NE game I spent a long time and a number of posts critiquing a gorgeous bomb that hit Clay right in the hand that he couldn't pull in largely because I think he lacks good hands combined with ball awareness. And that's what came into play here, again.

 

Is blame supposed to be adjusted based on the WRs or should all NFL WRs/TEs be expected to catch footballs that don't involve acrobatic feats?

 

No need to get so defensive. We are discussing that play, it's not a TT bash fest.

 

And it wasn't just a matter of recognizing to throw to Clay a little too slow, it was more of an issue of not recognizing that Clay had one on one matchup early on with a LB and that the only other person which was the safety #33 that had a possibility of making a play had taken himself out of the play when TT initially looked towards Zay, which #33 was in clear sight of this, at that point is when he should have looked back to Clay and made the throw. Rather he kept shuffling his feet around, hesitated and then looked towards Clay. By then Clay had moved from the middle of the field back to where #33 was and was forced to throw it slightly behind Clay because #33 would have been there if TT had led Clay.

 

This is a good discussion and for some of us, this is at the crux of TT.'s weaknesses, which is pre snap reads and live game recognition of plays developing.

[8-8 Forever?]

they were playing the Jets and won by 9 late. lets hold the reviews until we see a few more games

[Shaw66]

Geez. That pass got some miles on it, huh?

 

I get the timing argument. Taylor could have thrown it a little earlier. But no one seems to know if Jones or Clay was the 1st read. Looks like Jones to me, but I don't know. Do you?

 

If Jones was the 1st read, we're picking over likely a fraction of a second when Taylor should have thrown the ball earlier. We're fans so we can nitpick like that. But maybe it should just make us appreciate how damn difficult the position is...?

 

And regardless, isn't it still something Taylor seems to be progressing on? Throwing over the middle and going through reads is something absolutely no QB gets 100% right, including Brady.

 

Seems good we're nitpicking this.

 

 

However, Clay should have and could have caught that ball. Last year in the 2nd NE game I spent a long time and a number of posts critiquing a gorgeous bomb that hit Clay right in the hand that he couldn't pull in largely because I think he lacks good hands combined with ball awareness. And that's what came into play here, again.

 

Is blame supposed to be adjusted based on the WRs or should all NFL WRs/TEs be expected to catch footballs that don't involve acrobatic feats?

Nice post, transplant. Several things about this I agree with.

 

I don't think Jones was primary. May have been Clay, but Taylor looked right first, I think to verify that the other guys were covered up.

 

That fraction of a second is what it's all about, Unlike your job and mine, Taylor's job requires that he be one of the 10 or 15 best people in the world. Being 50th isn't good enough. That fraction of a second is the difference between being in the top 15 and the top 50 or 100. It's a lot of little things that add up to making Rodgers and Brady who they are. To Taylor's credit, he's demonstrated the kind of work ethic those other guys have; Taylor works every day to get better. And, yes, I think he is progressing. I also think he's now in an offense that's better planned and better coached, so it's easier to have success on a lot of plays. That, in turn, makes the few difficult plays, like this one, more important. McCown can complete the same passes as Taylor on the easy plays. If Taylor wants to be something more than McCown, he needs to master those fractions of seconds.

 

And yes, this play does show how complicated and how hard it is. Taylor figured out the right throw. Did he figure it out as quickly as he needs to? Don't know. Assume he did. Then he needed to figure out how to get the ball to Clay, which we can see in the video involved recognizing how the pocket was moving and stepping out to have a clear throwing lane. He didn't do that, which forced him to throw high. That's a lot of thinking that has to be done almost instinctively, and Taylor didn't quite do it.

 

However, he did it well enough to get the ball to a place where Clay could have caught it. Clay's a good but not elite tight end. He doesn't have the body control of a wide out, and getting his hands up and behind him, if only a little, makes that a hard catch for him. That too is the difference between playing in the league and being an elite player. There are a half dozen tight ends who mike that catch regularly. Clay isn't yet, probably never will be, elite like that.

[PABillsFan4Life]

It wasn't 5 feet off. Clay didn't jump as high as he could in the air. Watch it again. He pushes off with one foot to get maybe one foot into the air, the pass hits him in his left shoulder. Literally 18 inches at best from being on the numbers.

[xRUSHx]

Very nice thread Shaw, you always put in the work and this thread again shows it. but....

 

In my opinion it was just the Jests a team looking for the top pick.

 

I am trying to believe but sadly so many loser seasons and the talent change this year just makes me even less optimistic.

The Bills should have destroyed the Jests so I'm not really inpressed with the win. Im still on the 5-6 win wagon.

 

Got my fingers crossed but my doubt in this team is stronger this season they any other, Go Bills

.

They were a little "Off"

 

They did do some good running.

 

Fans subdued because we are beating the team that will have the #1 pick next year, pushing them further up ahead of us in the draft. Its bittersweet and conflicting.

Sadly I have to agree. Many in my group were non stop talking about next year's draft and how this win will hurt more later.

.

Edited September 15, 2017 by xRUSHx

[grb]

There's been enough detailed analysis of this play to play to reach War & Peace length. It's been an interesting debate to follow, particularly because it's been more civil & factually-oriented than a lot of topics, particularly concerning Taylor. Whether commentators have blamed Taylor, Clay, or some combination thereof, they've dug deep into the minutia to support their point - one side answering the other in kind.

 

All of which leads me to believe there isn't a lot of there there. If you blame Clay, you still concede it was a difficult catch from someone who was immediately after hammered. If you blame Taylor, you still concede he didn't have any ideal place to put the ball. I'm not disparaging all the analysis, which has been very informative to read. But given the degree people have needed to qualify their conclusion on who's to blame, there just ain't a lot of blame left.....

Edited September 15, 2017 by grb

[BuffaloHokie13]

There's been enough detailed analysis of this play to play to reach War & Peace length. It's been an interesting debate to follow, particularly because it's been more civil & factually-oriented than a lot of topics, particularly concerning Taylor. Whether commentators have blamed Taylor, Clay, or some combination thereof, they've dug done into the minutia to support their point - one side answering the other in kind.

 

All of which leads me to believe there isn't a lot of there there. If you blame Clay, you still concede it was a difficult catch from someone who was immediately hammered after. If you blame Taylor, you still concede he didn't have any ideal place to put the ball. I'm not disparaging all the analysis, which has been interesting & informative to read. But given the degree people have needed to qualify their conclusion on who's to blame, there just ain't a lot of blame left.....

It's clearly the football's fault for being fully inflated.

[grb]

It's clearly the football's fault for being fully inflated.

 

Where's Brady when you need'em?

[Shaw66]

There's been enough detailed analysis of this play to play to reach War & Peace length. It's been an interesting debate to follow, particularly because it's been more civil & factually-oriented than a lot of topics, particularly concerning Taylor. Whether commentators have blamed Taylor, Clay, or some combination thereof, they've dug deep into the minutia to support their point - one side answering the other in kind.

 

All of which leads me to believe there isn't a lot of there there. If you blame Clay, you still concede it was a difficult catch from someone who was immediately after hammered. If you blame Taylor, you still concede he didn't have any ideal place to put the ball. I'm not disparaging all the analysis, which has been very informative to read. But given the degree people have needed to qualify their conclusion on who's to blame, there just ain't a lot of blame left.....

Exactly.

 

The interesting thing is the coaches reached this conclusion after about 90 seconds of film review. That's why they're pros and we are amateurs.

[transplantbillsfan]

No need to get so defensive. We are discussing that play, it's not a TT bash fest.

 

And it wasn't just a matter of recognizing to throw to Clay a little too slow, it was more of an issue of not recognizing that Clay had one on one matchup early on with a LB and that the only other person which was the safety #33 that had a possibility of making a play had taken himself out of the play when TT initially looked towards Zay, which #33 was in clear sight of this, at that point is when he should have looked back to Clay and made the throw. Rather he kept shuffling his feet around, hesitated and then looked towards Clay. By then Clay had moved from the middle of the field back to where #33 was and was forced to throw it slightly behind Clay because #33 would have been there if TT had led Clay.

 

This is a good discussion and for some of us, this is at the crux of TT.'s weaknesses, which is pre snap reads and live game recognition of plays developing.

You took that as me being defensive?

 

I criticized the timing of his throw and then talked about the pass itself, which is what everyone else here is doing.

 

Why do you assume I'm being any more defensive than you or anyone else discussing this issue?