Bills trade Sammy Watkins to Rams for CB Gaines, 2nd rd pick

[26CornerBlitz]

 

@mikerodak

 

 

 

I will say again I didn't like the trade. But Jimbo is just being silly now. Reed was his slot guy, and played a different role than Sammy had been playing. Plus Andre was durable.

 

I didn't like the trade because I thought Dennison was going to use Sammy the way he should have been used, slants, screens, etc. And I think Sammy if healthy would have thrived. I remain thinking other factors were going on behind the scenes.

 

 

 

Jim Kelly said Sunday that Tyrod Taylor losing Sammy Watkins is "like me losing Andre Reed," but urges Bills fans to "stay on the wagon."

 

 

He's referring to Reed as his go to guy, just as Sammy was for Tyrod. That's irrespective of playing in the slot or the outside.

[oldmanfan]

 

He's referring to Reed as his go to guy, just as Sammy was for Tyrod. That's irrespective of playing in the slot or the outside.

Thant makes more sense.

[Boatdrinks]

Saying he panicked is completely absurd.

It's far from absurd. He needed to do nothing now. If SW isnt healthy in 2017 , the Bills FO look like geniuses for not picking up his option. If he is healthy ( looking more likely now) he probably has a good season. Great! Except there's one problem . He won't re- sign in Buffalo because you didn't pick his option up and he's playing hardball. Suddenly you look foolish. Call it what you want, it's a panic because it could all have been avoided . Beans and company care only about their egos, winning is not the top priority.

He's referring to Reed as his go to guy, just as Sammy was for Tyrod. That's irrespective of playing in the slot or the outside.

Yes, he meant that in the sense that Reed was his best WR and his go to. Rodak is still an idiot .

[oldmanfan]

Saying McDermott and Beane don't want to win is beyond completely absurd. I'm not sure a word exists to define how screwed up such a thought is.

[Magox]

 

Saying McDermott and Beane don't want to win is beyond completely absurd. I'm not sure a word exists to define how screwed up such a thought is.

Take it for what it is worth;

 

You cannot reason with the unreasonable

Edited August 13, 2017 by Magox

[Boatdrinks]

Saying McDermott and Beane don't want to win is beyond completely absurd. I'm not sure a word exists to define how screwed up such a thought is.

I said it apparently is not the #1 priority. Mitigating PR damage seems to have played a role in a major decision.

[oldmanfan]

I said it apparently is not the #1 priority. Mitigating PR damage seems to have played a role in a major decision.

Still crazy. They want to compete short and long term, just as he said in the press conference.

[NoSaint]

I think that McCoy is saying that Sammy never had anyone on the team that knew anything about winning in the NFL. Could've used Anquan a lot earlier than this year.

I think he's simply saying it's hard for a good player to teach someone how to be great. Sammy has had very few opportunities to be led by a player that's been where he is, and there's only so much a lunch pail guy can teach you about being a superstar. That's not to say Sammy ignored everyone simply that there are only so many people in the world that can teach him some of the stuff he needs to learn

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 

@mikerodak

 

 

Andre could be counted on

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jim Kelly said Sunday that Tyrod Taylor losing Sammy Watkins is "like me losing Andre Reed," but urges Bills fans to "stay on the wagon."

[Crusher]

 

Again, not arguing talent vs. talent. Matthews isn't as good, but he's on the field more, so the stats even out.

 

Hypothetical: would you take the most talented WR in NFL history if you knew he could only play 8-12 games?

 

Watkins has played in a run-dominant system, agreed. Not sure how that would change had he stayed.

 

Matthews also caught balls from Sanchez/Foles/Bradford/Wentz. None of them are exactly blowing Taylor out of the water.

Nobody has an idea of how many games he will play. He stands as much of a chance as any other player because injuries aren't predictable.

 

Julio, Dez, and Edelman all needed the second surgery for the Jones fracture and are now all fully recovered and producing...Watkins is now healthy and may now be entering his prime.

 

My point was that Watkins has had the detriment of not only a not very good passer throwing to him a limited amount, but that the scheme also hurts him and both these things aren't allowing him to fully realize his potential. Matthews I imagine is pretty much getting the most out of his ability.

[JohnBonhamRocks]

Nobody has an idea of how many games he will play. He stands as much of a chance as any other player because injuries aren't predictable.

 

Julio, Dez, and Edelman all needed the second surgery for the Jones fracture and are now all fully recovered and producing...Watkins is now healthy and may now be entering his prime.

 

My point was that Watkins has had the detriment of not only a not very good passer throwing to him a limited amount, but that the scheme also hurts him and both these things aren't allowing him to fully realize his potential. Matthews I imagine is pretty much getting the most out of his ability.

 

I agree that Watkins can recover from injury, like you pointed out with Jones, Bryant, and Edelman. It's about probability.

 

Matthews, while less talented, is more likely to be available to play given both of their injury histories.

 

Watkins might be entering his prime. He might not. Same for Matthews.

 

I get your point regarding our passing game and scheme fit, but my point was that, Watkins or no Watkins, Dennison's play-calling and Taylor's ability at QB are going to be relatively the same.

 

It boils down to a boom-or-bust argument I think. Watkins gives you the potential for a top 10 WR, but the injury and availability concerns loom. Matthews is less talented, but he's consistent and plays more often. I like the safer bet, that's all, but I do understand wanting to take that chance at the same time.

 

It was mentioned somewhere above, but I would think the money aspect of the whole argument has to favor Matthews.

[DriveFor1Outta5]

 

@mikerodak That's a bit hyperbolic from Jim. No need to kick the fan base when they're down. I love Jim, but cringe at most of he says.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jim Kelly said Sunday that Tyrod Taylor losing Sammy Watkins is "like me losing Andre Reed," but urges Bills fans to "stay on the wagon."

[JohnBonhamRocks]

I feel like Matthews plays more like Reed than does Watkins.

[stinky finger]

 

You said, "The per game average is the correct method for comparison with Matthews playing in 9 more games than Watkins."

 

Then I showed how they have the same targets per game, but because Matthews plays more often his stats are a little better.

 

You're moving the goal posts by re-focusing on YPC and TDs per game, but even considering that, my argument is on the "per game" part. Less games = less TDs, no?

 

Let me stress that I agree it is obvious Watkins is a more explosive and dangerous WR. But Matthews is more productive overall because he's the more available and consistent WR.

 

This is completely fair - on all accounts.

[26CornerBlitz]

 

@mikerodak

 

 

Andre could be counted on

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jim Kelly said Sunday that Tyrod Taylor losing Sammy Watkins is "like me losing Andre Reed," but urges Bills fans to "stay on the wagon."

 

 

Good comparison of #1 WRs in different eras.

 

 

@mikerodak That's a bit hyperbolic from Jim. No need to kick the fan base when they're down. I love Jim, but cringe at most of he says.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jim Kelly said Sunday that Tyrod Taylor losing Sammy Watkins is "like me losing Andre Reed," but urges Bills fans to "stay on the wagon."

 

 

Kelly recognizes the talent as most people do and it was a perfectly fine comparison to make.

 

I feel like Matthews plays more like Reed than does Watkins.

 

Not at the same level of Reed or Watkins. Matthews has primarily played the slot as did Reed, but that wasn't the point.

[stinky finger]

 

He's referring to Reed as his go to guy, just as Sammy was for Tyrod. That's irrespective of playing in the slot or the outside.

 

 

 

Jimbo may have been a little over the top with his statement, no?

 

Kelly to Reed was tried and true - historic.

 

Taylor to Sammy? Fleeting, if not unnoticeable.

[JohnBonhamRocks]

I do think Kelly was referring to the go-to role Watkins played for Taylor that Reed played for him. No reason Matthews can't be that for Taylor.

 

Every time I note that Matthews is more consistent and available, I feel like I have to add a disclaimer that I understand Watkins is more talented.

[26CornerBlitz]

 

Jimbo may have been a little over the top with his statement, no?

 

Kelly to Reed was tried and true - historic.

 

Taylor to Sammy? Fleeting, if not unnoticeable.

 

You like some others are missing the point. It was a comparison of Reed and Watkins as the #1 targets of the respective QBs. Unnoticeable? That's pretty good.

[CommonCents]

 

Jimbo may have been a little over the top with his statement, no?

 

Kelly to Reed was tried and true - historic.

 

Taylor to Sammy? Fleeting, if not unnoticeable.

Perhaps he was speaking to the importance of having a true number one WR and how that can give a QB the confidence he needs. Something Taylor won't be getting with an aging Boldin and a mediocre Jmatt. One good thing about the trade that nickname is so bad that it's fun to type.

 

JMatt! I'm in 6th grade again!

Edited August 13, 2017 by Commonsense

[26CornerBlitz]

I do think Kelly was referring to the go-to role Watkins played for Taylor that Reed played for him. No reason Matthews can't be that for Taylor.

 

Every time I note that Matthews is more consistent and available, I feel like I have to add a disclaimer that I understand Watkins is more talented.

 

Matthews is not a #1 WR. Period.

[stinky finger]

Ditto.

 

Not just bad, but I'd say awful and it makes me believe these guys are awful talent evaluators.

Yes - I, too, believe he was moved because Beane and McD truly thought Sammy didn't check off the talent boxes.

 

I don't have issue with anyone who isn't down with this trade, but to come to this conclusion is a tad premature IMO.

 

You like some others are missing the point. It was a comparison of Reed and Watkins as the #1 targets of the respective QBs. Unnoticeable? That's pretty good.

No, I understood the point.

 

I think you may have misunderstood mine. "Taylor to Watkins" was never an item.

 

Again, I get it. Sammy is a wonderful talent.

Perhaps he was speaking to the importance of having a true number one WR and how that can give a QB the confidence he needs. Something Taylor won't be getting with an aging Boldin and a mediocre Jmatt. One good thing about the trade that nickname is so bad that it's fun to type.

 

JMatt! I'm in 6th grade again!

understood - TT needs to pull up his pants and get the ball to who's here. If he's good enough, he will.

[JohnBonhamRocks]

 

Matthews is not a #1 WR. Period.

Do you say that based on production?

[26CornerBlitz]

Yes - I, too, believe he was moved because Beane and McD truly thought Sammy didn't check off the talent boxes.

 

I don't have issue with anyone who isn't down with this trade, but to come to this conclusion is a tad premature IMO.

No, I understood the point.

 

I think you may have misunderstood mine. "Taylor to Watkins" was never an item.

 

Again, I get it. Sammy is a wonderful talent.

 

It was, but certainly not for a long period of time since they were only teammates for part of two seasons with Sammy missing eight games and hampered when he did play last season. The last 9 games of the '15 campaign were dynamic.

Do you say that based on production?

 

I say that based on him vs. #1 CBs in the league that he will not consistently beat in one-on-one matchups. He's not that kind of player.

I have seen Matthews play quite a bit. Have you?

Edited August 13, 2017 by 26CornerBlitz

[CommonCents]

Yes - I, too, believe he was moved because Beane and McD truly thought Sammy didn't check off the talent boxes.

 

I don't have issue with anyone who isn't down with this trade, but to come to this conclusion is a tad premature IMO.

 

No, I understood the point.

 

I think you may have misunderstood mine. "Taylor to Watkins" was never an item.

 

Again, I get it. Sammy is a wonderful talent.

 

understood - TT needs to pull up his pants and get the ball to who's here. If he's good enough, he will.

I don't think it matters much with TT honestly, outside of him going to OZ and getting a faster processor his time is almost up. It will matter when you draft a QB that can utilize a talent like Watkins. Again...a ton of IFs with Sammy but to sell low on a guy as talented as him is a bad move 100% of the time.

 

I'm not getting into all that "signability" baloney, he will ink

a deal with LA before opening day.

Do you say that based on production?

The numbers are so misleading, I don't care if a guy puts up stats on a bad football team while he is playing amongst on of the worst WR groups in football. He is limited outside, has a bad drop percentage. That is an average at best WR in today's game.

[stinky finger]

 

It was, but certainly not for a long period of time since they were only teammates for part of two seasons with Sammy missing eight games and hampered when he did play last season. The last 9 games of the '15 campaign were dynamic.

 

I say that based on him vs. #1 CBs in the league that he will not consistently beat in one-on-one matchups. He's not that kind of player.

I have seem Matthews play quite a bit. Have you?

 

As I said - fleeting.

[JohnBonhamRocks]

I say that based on him vs. #1 CBs in the league that he will not consistently beat in one-on-one matchups. He's not that kind of player.

I should have clarified - I was talking about Watkins, asking if he is a WR1. Assuming you do based on your comments, I ask if you think that based on his production?

[stinky finger]

I don't think it matters much with TT honestly, outside of him going to OZ and getting a faster processor his time is almost up. It will matter when you draft a QB that can utilize a talent like Watkins. Again...a ton of IFs with Sammy but to sell low on a guy as talented as him is a bad move 100% of the time.

 

I'm not getting into all that "signability" baloney, he will ink

a deal with LA before opening day.

 

The numbers are so misleading, I don't care if a guy puts up stats on a bad football team while he is playing amongst on of the worst WR groups in football. He is limited outside, has a bad drop percentage. That is an average at best WR in today's game.

 

So, Sammy was irreplaceable?

[26CornerBlitz]

 

As I said - fleeting.

 

You also said unnoticeable, which it was certainly not.

[stinky finger]

It is premature, I agree.

 

Still the trade makes little sense.

On the surface, I can see why anyone would think this.

[26CornerBlitz]

I should have clarified - I was talking about Watkins, asking if he is a WR1. Assuming you do based on your comments, I ask if you think that based on his production?

 

It's based on his production when healthy as well as his talent.

[JohnBonhamRocks]

Also, for those touting Watkins' similarity in talent to the top 5 WRs in the league, what about that stat that Matthews is one of 5 or 6 WRs to put up the amount of catches and yards as he has in the first 3 years of his career in all of NFL history?

[26CornerBlitz]

Also, for those touting Watkins' similarity in talent to the top 5 WRs in the league, what about that stat that Matthews is one of 5 or 6 WRs to put up the amount of catches and yards as he has in the first 3 years of his career in all of NFL history?

 

11.9 YPC.....WOW!

[stinky finger]

 

You also said unnoticeable, which it was certainly not.

 

You know, I truly believe Sammy is a terrific talent.

 

Fact is, the QB/WR we're discussing hadn't had enough time to become an item.

[CommonCents]

 

So, Sammy was irreplaceable?

What? Who said that? They can replace with another high draft pick.

[26CornerBlitz]

 

You know, I truly believe Sammy is a terrific talent.

 

Fact is, the QB/WR we're discussing hadn't had enough time to become an item.

 

We agree here.

[stinky finger]

 

It's based on his production when healthy as well as his talent.

Sammy >>>>>>>>>>>Mathews

 

Not debatable

[BillsFan4]

It's far from absurd. He needed to do nothing now. If SW isnt healthy in 2017 , the Bills FO look like geniuses for not picking up his option. If he is healthy ( looking more likely now) he probably has a good season. Great! Except there's one problem . He won't re- sign in Buffalo because you didn't pick his option up and he's playing hardball. Suddenly you look foolish. Call it what you want, it's a panic because it could all have been avoided . Beans and company care only about their egos, winning is not the top priority.

 

Yes, he meant that in the sense that Reed was his best WR and his go to. Rodak is still an idiot .

Beane and his front office staff weren't even here yet when the Bills decided not to pick up Sammy's option. So how does that factor into his ego? It wasn't even a decision he or his front office staff made, as they were all employees of other teams at the time.

 

And before you say "McDermott", Beane already said he was the one who handled this entire trade. He said he only brought it to McDermott the night before, when it became real.

[JohnBonhamRocks]

 

11.9 YPC.....WOW!

Only plays 12 games per year... WOW!

 

Do I really think cherry picking stats is useful? No, but I can do it too.

[BillsFan4]

Nobody has an idea of how many games he will play. He stands as much of a chance as any other player because injuries aren't predictable.

Julio, Dez, and Edelman all needed the second surgery for the Jones fracture and are now all fully recovered and producing...Watkins is now healthy and may now be entering his prime.

My point was that Watkins has had the detriment of not only a not very good passer throwing to him a limited amount, but that the scheme also hurts him and both these things aren't allowing him to fully realize his potential. Matthews I imagine is pretty much getting the most out of his ability.

You're right that nobody knows how many games he will play. But you continue to focus on only the foot injury.

 

Here's a quick list of Watkin's injuries in his time with the Bills (as per ESPN) -

 

http://www.espn.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/24712/add-broken-foot-to-sammy-watkins-growing-list-of-nfl-injuries

 

Aug. 16, 2014: Watkins exited the Bills' second preseason game against the Pittsburgh Steelers with what the team called a rib contusion and did not return.

 

Aug. 28, 2014: After missing the Bills' third preseason game, Watkins returned for the preseason finale but pulled himself out of the game after reinjuring his ribs. Months later, Watkins revealed that he was dealing not only with a rib contusion but with broken ribs.

 

Sept. 14, 2014: Watkins scored his first NFL touchdown in a Week 2 win over the Miami Dolphins, part of an eight-catch, 117-yard performance. Watkins was checked out by trainers multiple times during the game and was hunched over on the sideline at one point.

 

Oct. 8, 2014: Watkins was removed from the injury report after being listed for the first five weeks of the season with the rib ailment.

 

Oct. 22, 2014: Watkins was added to the Bills' injury report with a groin injury but was a full participant in practice. Four days later, he gained a career-high 157 receiving yards in the Bills' win over the New York Jets and was named the NFL's offensive rookie of the month for October.

 

Nov. 5, 2014: Watkins left the Bills' Wednesday session with a groin injury and did not practice for the rest of the week. However, he played in the Bills' Nov. 9 loss to the Kansas City Chiefs, catching four passes on 10 targets.

 

Nov. 30, 2014: Watkins suffered a hip injury in the Bills' Week 13 win over the Cleveland Browns but returned to play the following Sunday in a loss to the Denver Broncos, catching seven passes for 127 yards.

 

Dec. 10, 2014: Watkins was removed from the injury report and did not reappear on it for the final three weeks of the season.

 

Early 2015 offseason: Watkins underwent surgery on his hip and sat out the vast majority of organized team activities as he rehabbed.

 

July 31, 2015: Watkins participated fully when the Bills opened training camp at St. John Fisher College.

 

 

Aug 6, 2015: Watkins didn't finish practice after getting "a little nicked up," as Rex Ryan put it, but Watkins said he was dealing with soreness from his offseason surgery.

 

Aug. 17, 2015: After easing back into practice, Watkins exited a training camp practice again with what was called glute soreness. He sat out the final three preseason games for precautionary reasons.

 

Sept. 9, 2015: Watkins was listed on the Bills' first injury report with a hamstring injury but was a full participant in practice. He was removed from the injury report by Week 2.

 

Sept. 27, 2015: Watkins left the Bills' win over the Miami Dolphins with a calf injury and missed two games, against the New York Giants and Tennessee Titans.

 

Oct. 18, 2015: Watkins fell awkwardly in the end zone while making a 22-yard touchdown catch late in the first half of a loss to the Cincinnati Bengals. Television cameras later showed him on crutches outside the locker room, and his sprained ankle kept him out of a crushing Bills loss to the Jacksonville Jaguars the next weekend in London.

 

 

 

He's had injuries to like 6 different body parts in his 3 years with the Bills. It very well could have just been bad luck. But to say that there hasn't been a troubling and worrisome history of injuries would be false.

[NoSaint]

Do you say that based on production?

I think we are all arguing it based on talent. He is not a guy that you have to gameplan against because he beats you 1-1 or changes the numbers game for the defense because of the attention he commands ala dez, green, Julio, obj, brown, Hopkins, Demarius, amari, and many of us think Sammy is.... Matthews is a solid guy that got better than expected production based on his situation. More like some of the receivers we've had in the past like Stevie. Is he a top 32 receiver or in the group of 33-64? I dont think that is a distinction most of us care about. He's in the crowd of a lot of 6 of 1 or a half dozen of the other behind those top tier guys. Sammy has shown to have the ability to be in the list everyone names around the league when discussing #1 WRs.

Edited August 13, 2017 by NoSaint