DriveFor1Outta5 Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 (edited) Said the same thing about Jameis. It's hard to put a finger on it but he "feels" like the guy. This may not make sense but Watson has those same intangibles but not the physical skills. When he got the ball back in the National Championship I firmly believed he was going to will them to victory. Jameis just seems like that. It's probably not the strongest argument but I just trust him. I agree that Winston is insanely talented. My greatest concern is that I don't trust Jameis off the field. Carr and Mariota have all the off field intangibles that successful QB's often have. Edited June 22, 2017 by DriveFor1Outta5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 It takes time. I think we're all subject to a little recency bias. Brady and Peyton were both in the league for 5-6 years and had met in the playoffs and won rings before their rivalry was truly established. Contrast that with a guy like Luck, who has still "only" been in the NFL 5 seasons and Cam 6. Now, neither of those guys have replaced the rivalry, but they are the oldest of the new young QB's. Once the old guard is truly "gone" we will see 4-5 years of Luck versus Carr, Winston and Cam, Luck versus Mariota and it will grow organically. That and Peyton versus Brady was the best QB rivalry in 20-30 years. Hard to top that, no matter who it is. I spaced on luck. We will see. I think we take for granted how many good qbs were in that era, even as young guys. There haven't been many that got good quick and stayed good consistently since. It just feels like there's a hollow couple of years where we didn't see qb talent at the rate we used to-- again, despite it being the most passer friendly era to date. That age range of, say, 25-32 where you are on your second contract and entering your prime is thin feeling currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manther Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 who do we blame for passing on him - DW or "Buddy" Nix?But, we had EJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Dude Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 @adamschefter Raiders and Derek Carr are close to finalizing a deal expected to pay their quarterback about $25 million per year, per league sources. Whaley had a chance on this kid and stayed with his EJ MANUEL boy, Whaley destroyed this team and should have another chance to be an GM in league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Whaley had a chance on this kid and stayed with his EJ MANUEL boy, Whaley destroyed this team and should have another chance to be an GM in league.Was it really reasonable to expect the GM to take a QB in the 1st round 1 year after taking a QB in the 1st round? Of course not, I can't think of an example since the Cowboys (I think) where a team took QB in the 1st in consecutive years. We can fault Whaley for EJ but it's not reasonable to fault him for not getting another guy the next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Was it really reasonable to expect the GM to take a QB in the 1st round 1 year after taking a QB in the 1st round? Of course not, I can't think of an example since the Cowboys (I think) where a team took QB in the 1st in consecutive years. We can fault Whaley for EJ but it's not reasonable to fault him for not getting another guy the next year. And EJ's rookie year and Carr's rookie years were not that different by numbers and the only difference you saw on tape was there was a definite trend up the final 3 or 4 games of Carr's rookie year. If you wanted him to take Carr you'd have wanted him to take another in 2015 and maybe another in 2016 and so on..... you have to allow Quarterbacks to develop... EJ didn't, Carr did... but if you pull the plug on every QB at the end of his rookie year you have a much bigger risk of missing a good one in my opinion. As for Whaley destroying this team? He won more games than his predecessors and the three seasons following full control Whaley offseasons the overall record was .500. Good enough? No. A team "destroyed"? Behave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 @adamschefter Derek Carr fell to 2nd round and started his NFL career 0-10. Now on brink of becoming one of highest, if not highest, paid player in game. Andrew Luck $24.6 million average annual salary. Carson Palmer $24.35M. Drew Brees $24.25M Kirk Cousins $23.9M. Derek Carr at or near top. So, real talk... why are none of these 4 perennial Superbowl contenders? I'm kinda glad we only spend what $8? 9? million on Tyrod compared to these salaries. Not saying Tyrod is better... but Tyrod + $15million is probably better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 So, real talk... why are none of these 4 perennial Superbowl contenders? I'm kinda glad we only spend what $8? 9? million on Tyrod compared to these salaries. Not saying Tyrod is better... but Tyrod + $15million is probably better. Some of them are? Cardinals were in the NFCCG only a year ago. Luck had 3 straight years of 10+ wins and playoff runs, with one AFCCG game appearance before he got a little banged up. Brees isn't in the playoffs every year due to horrible team building, not his annual salary. Derek Carr was a SB contender last year and an MVP candidate. I think if you think TT + $15M is better than Drew Brees who is a for sure Hall of Famer who threw 5,200 yards and 37 TD's last year, then I don't know what to say, really. And EJ's rookie year and Carr's rookie years were not that different by numbers and the only difference you saw on tape was there was a definite trend up the final 3 or 4 games of Carr's rookie year. If you wanted him to take Carr you'd have wanted him to take another in 2015 and maybe another in 2016 and so on..... you have to allow Quarterbacks to develop... EJ didn't, Carr did... but if you pull the plug on every QB at the end of his rookie year you have a much bigger risk of missing a good one in my opinion. As for Whaley destroying this team? He won more games than his predecessors and the three seasons following full control Whaley offseasons the overall record was .500. Good enough? No. A team "destroyed"? Behave. Taking Carr wouldn't have "pulled the plug" on EJ. It would have given us another prospect to develop when EJ faltered, like he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 (edited) Some of them are? Cardinals were in the NFCCG only a year ago. Luck had 3 straight years of 10+ wins and playoff runs, with one AFCCG game appearance before he got a little banged up. Brees isn't in the playoffs every year due to horrible team building, not his annual salary. Derek Carr was a SB contender last year and an MVP candidate. I think if you think TT + $15M is better than Drew Brees who is a for sure Hall of Famer who threw 5,200 yards and 37 TD's last year, then I don't know what to say, really. id. Brees not being in the playoffs every year due to horrible team building is kind of the point... are the Saints, Colts, etc limited in how much talent they can provide the QB due to the salaries they dump into the QB? What's the optimal percentage of team salary a QB should make so that you can still have a decent team around him? Brady is a perfect example, he takes a lot less money than he could demand, and the Patriots always have such a good all around team (to the point they were 3-1 with their backup QBs last year). Edited June 22, 2017 by Dorkington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Taking Carr wouldn't have "pulled the plug" on EJ. It would have given us another prospect to develop when EJ faltered, like he did. that works if we'd taken him in the 3rd round. It isn't the reality if you pick him in the 1st. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Re Carr/EJ I highly doubt we would have developed Carr as well as the Raiders did. QBs don't become great in the NFL in a vacuum, imo. The Bills have a terrible track record when it comes to QB development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 But, we had EJ Sorry, I made an error in the year Carr was drafted. I asked who passed on DC? Because of my mistake I know it to be DW. The Bills lost out on Carr is what I was getting at. 28 TD 6 INT 63.8 % comp 3,937 p/yds Efficient, low turnover ratio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Sorry, I made an error in the year Carr was drafted. I asked who passed on DC? Because of my mistake I know it to be DW. The Bills lost out on Carr is what I was getting at. 28 TD 6 INT 63.8 % comp 3,937 p/yds Efficient, low turnover ratio. It goes back to the Bills broken philosophy heading into the 2013 draft. They were hellbent on taking a QB despite the fact that it was the worst QB draft in a generation. Taking a guy in 2013 meant there was a 0% chance of taking a guy early in 2014. That's why I'm glad that the Bills passed this year (although 2017 was far superior to 2013). The 2018 class looks a lot stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Brees not being in the playoffs every year due to horrible team building is kind of the point... are the Saints, Colts, etc limited in how much talent they can provide the QB due to the salaries they dump into the QB? What's the optimal percentage of team salary a QB should make so that you can still have a decent team around him? Brady is a perfect example, he takes a lot less money than he could demand, and the Patriots always have such a good all around team (to the point they were 3-1 with their backup QBs last year). Well, with the saints Drew's salary is the uninformed lightning rod. The 40m in dead space last year was probably the bigger issue. Re Carr/EJ I highly doubt we would have developed Carr as well as the Raiders did. QBs don't become great in the NFL in a vacuum, imo. The Bills have a terrible track record when it comes to QB development. Yea, if you dropped Carr in week one coming off a camp injury, no qb coach, first time NFL OC, and so on with the many bad situations the team created... is our money really getting bet on him being a prospect that overcomes all that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DriveFor1Outta5 Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Re Carr/EJ I highly doubt we would have developed Carr as well as the Raiders did. QBs don't become great in the NFL in a vacuum, imo. The Bills have a terrible track record when it comes to QB development. We have also drafted horrible QB's. No one can ever be certain how a QB will develop. This fact is evidenced by many first overall QB busts. However, Losman and Manuel were both long shots. Manuel showed nothing at FSU that indicated he could be a star in the pros. Losman was a guy with a big arm who was viewed as a project. Neither one of those were soild first round picks. They were reaches who shouldn't have been drafted so highly. Well, with the saints Drew's salary is the uninformed lightning rod. The 40m in dead space last year was probably the bigger issue. Yea, if you dropped Carr in week one coming off a camp injury, no qb coach, first time NFL OC, and so on with the many bad situations the team created... is our money really getting bet on him being a prospect that overcomes all that? Were the Raiders really that great of a situation? Good QB's can lift an entire franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted June 22, 2017 Author Share Posted June 22, 2017 @adamschefter Derek Carr and Raiders still are finalizing language, but the record deal could be announced as early as the end of this week, per sources. Damn he's getting a record deal too? 👀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 (edited) Brees not being in the playoffs every year due to horrible team building is kind of the point... are the Saints, Colts, etc limited in how much talent they can provide the QB due to the salaries they dump into the QB? What's the optimal percentage of team salary a QB should make so that you can still have a decent team around him? Brady is a perfect example, he takes a lot less money than he could demand, and the Patriots always have such a good all around team (to the point they were 3-1 with their backup QBs last year). No. The Saints are limited by handing out horrible contracts for "quick fixes" that has resulted in a ton of dead money. The Broncos managed to build around Peyton for 4 years and only in his last year required a paycut. Rodgers isn't taking "a lot less money." Wilson is still in the playoffs every year getting paid. Does a big contract limit you a little bit? Sure. Is it the chief reason teams with good, highly paid QB's aren't always good? Nope. If your thinking was correct, the Saints would jump at a Brees for TT trade straight up. There's just no way. that works if we'd taken him in the 3rd round. It isn't the reality if you pick him in the 1st. Why? EJ was also picked in the first. Edited June 22, 2017 by jmc12290 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Yet the Redskins are taking so long signing Cousins, making him dig in his heels even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Why? EJ was also picked in the first. Exactly. If you take a QB in the 1st and then the next year take another in the 1st it IS pulling the plug on the first guy you took. If you take one in the 3rd then you can say it is about giving yourself an option, if you take one in the 1st you have given up on the first guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Exactly. If you take a QB in the 1st and then the next year take another in the 1st it IS pulling the plug on the first guy you took. If you take one in the 3rd then you can say it is about giving yourself an option, if you take one in the 1st you have given up on the first guy. I don't agree. Good prospects go early. You take guys you think will be good when you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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