Tim Graham:Whaley wasted everyone's time.

[JohnC]

What a lot of fans forget is that when the Bills hired Chan Gailey he had stated to both Nix and owner Ralph Wilson (in what helped him land the job in Buffalo) was that he didn't need star players to win games. Wilson loved that statement!

 

"Last point: I can guarantee you one of the things that the Bills loved was Gailey's attitude about how you can win without stars in the NFL."

https://www.si.com/more-sports/2010/01/19/mailbag-0

 

Basically Gailey had told the Bills FO that he could win games with the current QB's on the roster. That 2010 off season the Bills had Ryan Fitzpatrick, Brian Brohm and Trent Edwards in the mix for a starting QB job and Gailey stated that they were all about equal. Then after camp Gailey was convinced he could win games with Trent Edwards as his starting QB even after Bills fans at training camp told him differently. Gailey was adamant about defending Edwards all the way up until he cut him after that regular season week two game against the Packers.

 

For the 2011 season Gailey said he could win with Fitz at QB! "I am extremely confident in Ryan Fitzpatrick," said Gailey. "We can win a bunch of football games (with him)."

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2011/02/bills-chan-gailey-i-am-extremely-confident-in-ryan-fitzpatrick/1?csp=34sports#.WSseV-vyuUl

 

So, in regards to Nix and the QB situation the GM was only following what his head coach had told him he could win with. As for Whaley and the changing of the HC from Gailey to Marrone in 2013 when Nix stepped down after the draft. From What I recall Whaley went and personally scouted the prospective QB prospects that year and came away that EJ was his man. In his years as GM it looked to me like Whaley never wanted to give up on EJ as his starter even when Marrone and Rex Ryan didn't want him.

 

 

Bottom line is that this franchise hasn't seen 10 wins since 1999 and they can only lose twice to the Patriots every year. What happened with the other 14 games every year in all that time? Anyway, I'm just happy that it looks like the Bills might finally be moving out of that mediocrity zone. Can't wait to see how this team looks this year.

You well cataloged the history on this issue. Where I have a slightly different take on your history is that it really doesn't matter what Chan's outdated thoughts were on the qb position because ultimately it is the GM who is the primary driver in assembling a roster. The owner's views on football were clearly not the wisest but I don't think even he would be against drafting a legitimate franchise qb or securing one in a trade or from the market.

 

Nix and Whaley can conjure up whatever excuses they want. It doesn't matter. The bottom line is with respect to the qb position they didn't get the job done. You are right that Whaley was just as influential as Nix in selecting EJ and then standing by him too long. The coach who is often vilified, Marrone, made a quick assessment on the FSU qb. He loudly and belligerently expressed that he wasn't willing to tolerate EJ being his starting qb. On this critical issue the insufferable HC was absolutely right. There were a number of reasons why Whaley's tenure was average at best. One of the major reasons is his misjudgment on EJ. That's on him.

 

As I stated in a prior post after his departure Whaley stated in an interview that if he had to do things all over he would have been more aggressive in finding a franchise qb. Sadly for him the light went on too late.

[3rdand12]

EJ was never going to develop more than what he is-a not so good NFL QB.

and we will never truly know.

You are likely correct though

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Watch the Playoffs, then watch the Bills.

 

Nix and Whaley had no clue.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Straight Hucklebuck

[billsfan714]

That pass in the end zone he missed in the last game against the Jets said it all. Guy just didn't have it.

[NoSaint]

I agree with you that as a GM he was saddled with tremendous obstacles not of his own making because he didn't select the HC. It was widely reported that he wanted to select a qb in the first round this year but didn't have the authority to do so because the owner's choice of a HC included the role of de facto GM for him. If he would have acted sooner on the qb imperative when he did have the authority things maybe would have been different for him. If he would have selected Carr or maybe even Prescott whom he favored over Cardale in an earlier he might still be working from his GM perch in western NY. While it doesn't seem that Whaley made the hire for Marrone or Rex he was still in a position to make qb decisions during their tenures. That's on him. In the end he sabotaged himself by not being resolute and acting on the qb issue.

But.... do you really think that Dak over cardale changes anything? Even in hindsight odds are Dak doesn't play last year... and if he does he'd be the rookie thrown into the always great situation of two coordinators in the first month of his career. That pick wouldn't be a job saver at that point

 

Carr is a different discussion. But even that is taking a qb just one year after EJ who had an ok rookie year despite all kinds of bad circumstances. Then dropping Carr into the same bad circumstance (and that's ignoring the question of where do we actually pick him)

 

I think the coach issue is much more central to the discussion of what really torpedoed Whaley if we aren't using hindsight to project other teams success with day two qbs as missed opportunities for our less than ideal situation for young qbs

[Thurman#1]

 

The contest deadline was midnight last night, and if you were even remotely as intelligent as you pretend to be about history, you'd remember I always lock the contest thread after the deadline has passed so people can't change their picks as the season gets closer.

 

Unfortunately, you're so upset that I mock Timmah! Graham that you can't even think straight. But let's be honest; no one who defends Timmah!! Graham to this extent will ever be mistaken for someone who can think for themselves, anyway.

 

 

I haven't bothered responding to your comments about Graham, because people dislike who they want. It's all fair enough. Not liking Graham is reasonable. But he's a terrific writer and a smart guy.

 

The guy's story on that famous Vietnam war photo was nominated for a Pulitzer. He won a "Barney" award from the Boxing Writers of America for first place for best story of the year. He's been published in the "Best American Sports Writing" anthology series, no small achievement. He's repeatedly won writing awards from the Professional Hockey Writers' Association, including at least two first-place awards.

 

His Bjorn Nittmo pieces have been fascinating but heart-breaking and have been mentioned in SI as some of the best journalism of 2016:

 

https://www.si.com/tech-media/2017/01/03/best-journalism-writing-reporting-2016

 

It's still reasonable to disagree with him, to not like him. But Graham's a highly respected journalist.

 

 

 

As for your contest, it looked interesting to me. I live in Japan, so I wouldn't have been able to collect my prize, so I didn't enter. Have you ever had to pay off? I'd guess not, yeah? Picking all sixteen games correctly is seriously difficult.

 

It's always looked like a really good idea to me.

 

 

Things have improved greatly from the HC, GM, scouting dept in my view. Now I just hope the owner gives these new men time to clear out the crap and build a solid contender.

I think it's way too early to say they've improved. Not too early to guess, though. Maybe they have.

Let's hope so.

EJ was never going to develop more than what he is-a not so good NFL QB.

 

 

 

Well, that's one guess.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Thurman#1

[vorpma]

Watch the Playoffs, then watch the Bills.

 

Nix and Whaley had no clue.

Awesome post - my contention is the Bills have not been or are not now anywhere close to being a viable playoff contender!

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Enough with the EJ arguments for goodness sake.

He's long gone and far from the reasons the Bills have been in their drought.

 

We have had 17 not so great seasons, 13 w/o EJ to blame for losing.

[JohnC]

But.... do you really think that Dak over cardale changes anything? Even in hindsight odds are Dak doesn't play last year... and if he does he'd be the rookie thrown into the always great situation of two coordinators in the first month of his career. That pick wouldn't be a job saver at that point

 

Carr is a different discussion. But even that is taking a qb just one year after EJ who had an ok rookie year despite all kinds of bad circumstances. Then dropping Carr into the same bad circumstance (and that's ignoring the question of where do we actually pick him)

 

I think the coach issue is much more central to the discussion of what really torpedoed Whaley if we aren't using hindsight to project other teams success with day two qbs as missed opportunities for our less than ideal situation for young qbs

With respect to the highlighted segment the issue isn't whether taking Dak over Cardale was the specific transaction that collapsed his regime. It represented how he operated and what his priorities were. During his stint he didn't address the qb position to the extent that he needed to not only at that point but all during his tenure. In an interview shortly after being fired he acknowledged that if he had to do it over he would have made it more of a priority to secure a franchise qb.

 

You point out that Carr is a different discussion. Hold on there---it is part of the same continuum of the qb issue. The Bills could have traded down and selected him and got additional picks. It was another missed opportunity for a team with a desperate need for a high end qb prospect. You then point out that we already had EJ on the roster so it wasn't a good time and situation to add another qb. That's the point I and others have made. It was Whaley who scouted him and ranked him. It was Whaley who mistakenly invested in him. Those were his gross misjudgments and miscalculations.

 

You and I are in accord regarding the Rex hire and how it hindered the GM. No one is dismissing that obvious point. But not blaming the GM for something he was responsible for with respect to the qb issue because he wasn't blameworthy for the coaching hires doesn't absolve him from the areas in which he did have control of.

[4merper4mer]

With respect to the highlighted segment the issue isn't whether taking Dak over Cardale was the specific transaction that collapsed his regime. It represented how he operated and what his priorities were. During his stint he didn't address the qb position to the extent that he needed to not only at that point but all during his tenure. In an interview shortly after being fired he acknowledged that if he had to do it over he would have made it more of a priority to secure a franchise qb.

 

You point out that Carr is a different discussion. Hold on there---it is part of the same continuum of the qb issue. The Bills could have traded down and selected him and got additional picks. It was another missed opportunity for a team with a desperate need for a high end qb prospect. You then point out that we already had EJ on the roster so it wasn't a good time and situation to add another qb. That's the point I and others have made. It was Whaley who scouted him and ranked him. It was Whaley who mistakenly invested in him. Those were his gross misjudgments and miscalculations.

 

You and I are in accord regarding the Rex hire and how it hindered the GM. No one is dismissing that obvious point. But not blaming the GM for something he was responsible for with respect to the qb issue because he wasn't blameworthy for the coaching hires doesn't absolve him from the areas in which he did have control of.

You can't really have it both ways though can you?

 

Whaley didn't really do enough to invest in the QB? You have to keep trying? But when he tried with EJ in a down QB year it was a mistake. So you have to keep trying but you can't keep trying? IMO you can say he made one of the two mistakes but you can't say he did both.

[vorpma]

Enough with the EJ arguments for goodness sake.

He's long gone and far from the reasons the Bills have been in their drought.

 

We have had 17 not so great seasons, 13 w/o EJ to blame for losing.

[4merper4mer]

Should probably go for Whaley too since he is gone. I hope to make a comment like this about Tim Graham some day when he is off covering the Edmonton Eskimos.

[JohnC]

You can't really have it both ways though can you?

 

Whaley didn't really do enough to invest in the QB? You have to keep trying? But when he tried with EJ in a down QB year it was a mistake. So you have to keep trying but you can't keep trying? IMO you can say he made one of the two mistakes but you can't say he did both.

Your logic escapes me. He selected a qb that didn't come close to being a good enough prospect. Drafting him in the first round was a mistake. You can argue fairly that it was Nix who took him in the first round but it was Whaley who graded EJ. Just because you draft a qb that doesn't mean that you then stop trying to get better at the position.

 

Marrone was the first HC who EJ played for. The cantankerous HC immediately concluded that EJ wasn't good enough. The GM continued to invest in him as a player while the coaches went in another direction. Your argument that because EJ was on the roster that the GM shouldn't/couldn't continue to act to upgrade the position makes little sense to me. It certainly was a factor in his dismissal.

[BADOLBILZ]

 

The contest deadline was midnight last night, and if you were even remotely as intelligent as you pretend to be about history, you'd remember I always lock the contest thread after the deadline has passed so people can't change their picks as the season gets closer.

 

Unfortunately, you're so upset that I mock Timmah! Graham that you can't even think straight. But let's be honest; no one who defends Timmah!! Graham to this extent will ever be mistaken for someone who can think for themselves, anyway.

 

 

I don't follow your contest because it's boring........if YOU were as smart as you think you are you'd notice I've never entered it. Probably the second time I've opened the thread in all these years......the first time it was clear it was a yawn.

 

It just ended up back at the top of the page, so I clicked on it, and there you were, using your "charitable" platform to further your ridiculous crusade at a media member.

 

So I reminded people of your shameful past........for context.......ya' know.

[BADOLBILZ]

 

 

I haven't bothered responding to your comments about Graham, because people dislike who they want. It's all fair enough. Not liking Graham is reasonable. But he's a terrific writer and a smart guy.

 

The guy's story on that famous Vietnam war photo was nominated for a Pulitzer. He won a "Barney" award from the Boxing Writers of America for first place for best story of the year. He's been published in the "Best American Sports Writing" anthology series, no small achievement. He's repeatedly won writing awards from the Professional Hockey Writers' Association, including at least two first-place awards.

 

His Bjorn Nittmo pieces have been fascinating but heart-breaking and have been mentioned in SI as some of the best journalism of 2016:

 

https://www.si.com/tech-media/2017/01/03/best-journalism-writing-reporting-2016

 

It's still reasonable to disagree with him, to not like him. But Graham's a highly respected journalist.

 

 

 

Disagree and dislike, but when your biggest complaint within the Bills Universe is Tim Graham there is obviously something more at play.

 

LA was one of a group that attacked Graham when he was posting here......and LA was dead wrong for doing so.

 

Chasing Graham off denied the forum of potential input from him..........so LA hurt the forum.

 

Rather than own up to his mistake he has made it a vendetta to run the guy down here..............even as Graham earns accolades for his work, making it even more clear it was our loss.

 

That's the deal with LA.......he has done things to hurt the forum and rather than own up to them he pretends it's not so.

 

That's why I called him out for his fan shaming and attempts to shout down discussion on the developing issues within the organization at the beginning of the drought.

 

Guy is full of bad takes......and that's a problem when people displace their frustration with the organization by dumping on the fanbase and/or media.

[thewildrabbit]

I think it's way too early to say they've improved. Not too early to guess, though. Maybe they have.

Let's hope so.

The Bills scouting department has been long overdue for an overhaul and from what I've seen from them over the years this is a great move.

 

While new Bills GM Brandon Beane is also a rookie GM like the last four. The new Bills coaching staff has a great amount of NFL experience to help him along. In my view none of those past GM's were not even qualified to be an NFL GM and the last two were not allowed complete control while being helped along by a previous non qualified GM.

 

Just looking at the latest draft, free agency gives me the impression that things are changing for the better as the team now has an extra 2018 1st round pick and filled a bunch of needs at the same time.

 

I look at the team and have to believe that things have changed greatly for the better. No more Rex, Whaley, crappy scouts or Brandon involved in football operations.

[IDBillzFan]

 

 

I haven't bothered responding to your comments about Graham, because people dislike who they want. It's all fair enough. Not liking Graham is reasonable. But he's a terrific writer and a smart guy.

 

The guy's story on that famous Vietnam war photo was nominated for a Pulitzer. He won a "Barney" award from the Boxing Writers of America for first place for best story of the year. He's been published in the "Best American Sports Writing" anthology series, no small achievement. He's repeatedly won writing awards from the Professional Hockey Writers' Association, including at least two first-place awards.

 

His Bjorn Nittmo pieces have been fascinating but heart-breaking and have been mentioned in SI as some of the best journalism of 2016:

 

https://www.si.com/tech-media/2017/01/03/best-journalism-writing-reporting-2016

 

It's still reasonable to disagree with him, to not like him. But Graham's a highly respected journalist.

 

Thanks for a thoughtful response. My problem with Graham is much less about his writing and much more about him as a human.

 

He's a fine writer, and by that I mean he is able to take stories and make them readable. As the internet has proven, it's not near as difficult as sports journalists would have you believe. I would also argue -- and this is completely a subjective take -- that awards like Pulitzer, Nobel, AP, Academy Awards, Emmy, Tony, etc. carry little water but for two groups: the people who give them, and the people who receive them. They're most often different sides of the same coin.

 

But look past his articles and at the person who wrote them and it is much less celebratory. You realize he doesn't care about what he does so much as he cares what people think of him for doing it. Now add in his lazy penchant for prodding the low-hanging fruit that is a saddened Bills fan. Note his sarcastic, condescending game-time comments. Read how he responds to anyone who disagrees with him, followed by his fanboys joining in for a chorus of "If only everyone were as smart us Tim and his followers."

 

Whish is why I refer to him as the Donald Trump of sports writers.

Edited May 29, 2017 by LABillzFan

[BringBackOrton]

 

Thanks for a thoughtful response. My problem with Graham is much less about his writing and much more about him as a human.

 

He's a fine writer, and by that I mean he is able to take stories and make them readable. As the internet has proven, it's not near as difficult as sports journalists would have you believe. I would also argue -- and this is completely a subjective take -- that awards like Pulitzer, Nobel, AP, Academy Awards, Emmy, Tony, etc. carry little water but for two groups: the people who give them, and the people who receive them. They're most often different sides of the same coin.

 

But look past his articles and at the person who wrote them and it is much less celebratory. You realize he doesn't care about what he does so much as he cares what people think of him for doing it. Now add in his lazy penchant for prodding the low-hanging fruit that is a saddened Bills fan. Note his sarcastic, condescending game-time comments. Read how he responds to anyone who disagrees with him, followed by his fanboys joining in for a chorus of "If only everyone were as smart us Tim and his followers."

 

Whish is why I refer to him as the Donald Trump of sports writers.

He said without a hint of irony.

 

Is your own sarcastic, condescending tone a satire of the highest level? Or, more likely, you don't find it nearly as intolerable, well, because you're the one doing it and clearly it's different. And it's not like you have Twitter followers.

 

Behold, the words of man bashing others for being sarcastic and condescending. Because the moral high ground never tasted so good when you're playing in the mud with the rest of them.

 

"Gather 'round and hear me out. Either you are closing your eyes to a situation you do not wish to acknowledge, or you are not aware of the caliber of disaster indicated by the presence of a football team in your community.

You say you're embarrassed by a team that can never make the playoffs? You say you're embarrassed by upper management, middle management, and lower management? You say you can see Pegula buckling his knickerbockers below the knee?

You say you're smarter than all of them? Smarter than the Owner? Smarter than the Coach? Smarter than the GM?

Brothers. Sisters. I hear your plea. The team would be perfect if only you could call the shots! This team can't even get through the National Anthem without you insisting you can sing it better! In fact, you are sure you could make this team better simply by accident, because the odds say a brilliant person like yourself could field a winner, if for no other reason than because you're nowhere near the level of dumbassery that inhabits OBD.

Well, good news is coming your way, and it starts right here, right now, on this very day and for a limited time with exclusive access to the entitled few who are brave enough, smart enough, and dare I say BRILLIANT enough to prove your genius, once and for all, in front of friends, peers and egocentric thin-skinned fist-humping sports writers."

Edited May 29, 2017 by jmc12290

[Sisyphean Bills]

Directly and indirectly you are making the point that the organization had no discernible strategy in how to build a franchise. Whether BB was a nemesis to be challenged or not the organization had no underlying theme or philosophy. Individual personnel decisions were simply individual decisions with no thought given to the whole.

 

Nix and Whaley both had an inexplicable casual attitude toward the qb position. The one position that could most quickly elevate a team was a secondary consideration. Nix stated publicly stated that he needed to build up the roster before he would focus on that position made no sense as demonstrated by him bypassing credible prospects when they were available. Shortly after Whaley was dismissed he acknowledged in one of his first public comments that if he had to do it over again he would place more emphasis on acquiring a franchise qb. This odd reluctance reached the point of nonfeasance/malfeasance. It makes no bloody sense!

 

Where I slightly disagree with your take is that I don't think that BB should be the focal point. Even if the Pats were not a force to be reckoned with the Bills needed to be smartly and wisely run. A second-rate organization is going to be a second-rate organization regardless which opposing team is going be the hurdle that needs to be jumped over.

 

With respect to the Rex hiring that in of itself is a testament to the dysfunction that prevailed within the organization. It was an owner mistake that he quickly realized and corrected after a relatively short period of time. Hopefully, that interlude of chaos is a thing of the past and a period of stability and competence will be exhibited.

 

The point about Belichick is that the goal and thus the focus should be success on the scoreboard. Having large ROI for the owner, the really nice flat-screen in every office, or the best free office lattes are nice, but not the mission. Belichick focuses on winning football games and those other things stem directly out of that, not the other way around.

 

And success is absolutely crucial, and it has to come quickly. We've seen the tiny brightly painted car circle the ring and the clowns pour out often enough to understand distractions. If the brain-trust can't plan and can't deliver wins, it's noise and smoke that amounts to historic ineptitude.

[BADOLBILZ]

 

Thanks for a thoughtful response. My problem with Graham is much less about his writing and much more about him as a human.

 

He's a fine writer, and by that I mean he is able to take stories and make them readable. As the internet has proven, it's not near as difficult as sports journalists would have you believe. I would also argue -- and this is completely a subjective take -- that awards like Pulitzer, Nobel, AP, Academy Awards, Emmy, Tony, etc. carry little water but for two groups: the people who give them, and the people who receive them. They're most often different sides of the same coin.

 

But look past his articles and at the person who wrote them and it is much less celebratory. You realize he doesn't care about what he does so much as he cares what people think of him for doing it. Now add in his lazy penchant for prodding the low-hanging fruit that is a saddened Bills fan. Note his sarcastic, condescending game-time comments. Read how he responds to anyone who disagrees with him, followed by his fanboys joining in for a chorus of "If only everyone were as smart us Tim and his followers."

 

Whish is why I refer to him as the Donald Trump of sports writers.

 

 

I think you just don't like the way he made you look......and possibly feel......when he left here.

 

Lotta' people here were disappointed with your unnecessary bullsh*t behavior that lead to Graham deciding to stop voluntarily contributing to a forum which does nothing for him professionally.

 

Basically chased Lori off in the process too.

 

Congratulations on that.......if it hasn't been said before.

 

Trolling is your thing but you don't want to be perceived as a troll.