Pine Barrens Mafia Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 This thread is win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Well, my measuring stick is a bit different. It's DeMarco Murray, who was signed by Philly for quite a bit less than McCoy got in his extension. He had a bad year with the Eagles, but is having an excellent (you could say Shady-esque) season with the Titans. You can't judge a trade like this without referring to contracts and available alternatives. Precisely. For the cost of a cup of coffee in NFL cap terms the Bills have gotten even better production out of MG and Karlos. Was this predictable? I mean to the extent of 5.7 ypc and 16 TD's on 200 carries? No, those are epic numbers. But this is kinda' like putting all your effort into being a better speller because you aren't good at math. And literally NOT GOOD AT MATH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 I think Shady will definitely be here next year and all likelyhood in 2018 too. If he is the average cost per year of the 4 years will be $8.25m. As for your question... I feel it is irrelevant to the issue. Unless you are arguing Gillislee or Williams (both of whom I like) are as good as Shady - which I know you are not - then it doesn't change the point. At the time that they traded for Shady neither was on the roster and what they saw was an opportunity in a run heavy offense to get a top tier running back at a cost even after the renegotiation of $8m a year. The fact that they have done a nice job finding some good relief pitchers so that the whole of the running game doesn't rest on Shady doesn't undermine that rationale of that trade to my mind. Look, he isn't my kind of person from what we know about him off the field, I am not misty eyed about the legend of Shady McCoy I just don't quite buy the "devalued" running back narrative. I still think there are some guys out there worth playmaker money especially in cases where teams do not have the passing game to lean on and given where the Bills were there was a logic to the trade. You are fitting right in here! You assume it's fair to expect 2 more highly productive years from Shady to lower his cap hit to near your assignment of value. You call 200 carries of production irrelevant. This is why time will tell us gentleman. So far one bad season.......one good season that isn't yet complete. Wait.....that's two years out of 5......and Shady is running for 5.5 ypc......is a raise in order? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 You are fitting right in here! You assume it's fair to expect 2 more highly productive years from Shady to lower his cap hit to near your assignment of value. You call 200 carries of production irrelevant. This is why time will tell us gentleman. So far one bad season.......one good season that isn't yet complete. Wait.....that's two years out of 5......and Shady is running for 5.5 ypc......is a raise in order? Where is the guy who had almost half of those carries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Where is the guy who had almost half of those carries? It's funny that you think this supports your point. You guys really should gameplan better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurmal34 Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 (edited) Precisely. For the cost of a cup of coffee in NFL cap terms the Bills have gotten even better production out of MG and Karlos. Those guys = Kenneth Davis to Shady's Thurman. Solid to elite backups/change of pace guys. The very reason they have been so effective is the juxtaposition against the stars. No team has ever given Kenny Davis, Mike Gillislee, or Fat Karl 235-250 carries. Who is smarter, the GMs that could have done that or you? Edited December 9, 2016 by Thurmal34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What a Tuel Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 (edited) Precisely. For the cost of a cup of coffee in NFL cap terms the Bills have gotten even better production out of MG and Karlos. Was this predictable? I mean to the extent of 5.7 ypc and 16 TD's on 200 carries? No, those are epic numbers. But this is kinda' like putting all your effort into being a better speller because you aren't good at math. And literally NOT GOOD AT MATH. Are you really arguing again that a full time Gillislee would put up Shady-like stats given the opportunity? Secondly, if Shady's contract is part of the conversation then Karlos Williams fudging up surely has to be. I mean, say we don't get Shady, and we pick up Gillislee and Karlos like you say. Karlos busts out. So now the Buffalo Bills have Gillislee as their feature back. And you suggest that we would be better off because we wouldn't use the cap on Shady? What?This is nuts. Edited December 9, 2016 by What a Tuel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Those guys = Kenneth Davis to Shady's Thurman. Solid to elite backups/change of pace guys. The very reason they have been so effective is the juxtaposition against the stars. No team has ever given Kenny Davis, Mike Gillislee, or Fat Karl 235-250 carries. Who is smarter, the GMs that could have done that or you? The NFL is a lot different since the days of Thurman and Kenny Davis. Now teams run by committee rather than just having a "backup" because the run game isn't as impactful on the league any longer and they don't want to have to allocate resources to RB position. But regarding your "juxtaposition" concept.......while that sounds good......once McCoy injured his knee in Washington MG and Karlos just kept clicking at a 5.5ypc pace and scoring TD's. The point isn't that MG and Karlos are great.......but a lot of RB's could be highly productive in this offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 (edited) The point isn't that MG and Karlos are great.......but a lot of RB's could be highly productive in this offense. Which absolutely no one is arguing against, despite your efforts to claim victory on that point. The point always was and still is whether or not Shady is special. Special enough to be considered elite. Elite enough to be an exception to the general rule that RBs are devalued in the league and whether he was worth trading an oft-injured but young LB with potential straight up for. You don't(didn't) think he is. I think he is by any and every metric. That's where we disagree. It's certainly a matter of opinion to some degree... especially if you're willing to ignore the game tape. But the main disagreement has nothing to do with whether or not other RBs could be "highly productive" in this offense. Never has. Now, if you were actually saying TD Mike and Karlos would have the same impact and the same production as Shady then I imagine you'd have plenty of people arguing against it. But you're not willing to go that far... ...Is it because you know it's irrelevant to the actual point of contention and you would rather move the goal posts than admit you were wrong? Nah. Edited December 9, 2016 by Deranged Rhino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 (edited) You assume it's fair to expect 2 more highly productive years from Shady to lower his cap hit to near your assignment of value. That is not what I said. I said he is here no matter what next season and he is likely here the year after as well. On the back of this season he would have to really slump in 2017 to be cut before the 2018 season... do you not agree? You call 200 carries of production irrelevant. I call it irrelevant in the context of considering the trade. I don't know why you think it is relevant in the context of the trade unless you are really suggesting that running backs are ten a penny and you can just plug and play any old cheap guy and you will get the same production. Which you told me was not your point. NFL team that has nothing at Quarterback and intends to lean heavily on running game trades for top tier running back giving up a linebacker coming off a torn up knee and gets him at $8m a year. That is just not an approach I think anyone should be slammed for. In considering that trade the production of the relief backs in the same offense (neither of whom were on the team at the time of the trade) is irrelevant. Edited December 9, 2016 by GunnerBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 The point always was and still is whether or not Shady is special. Special enough to be considered elite. Elite enough to be an exception to the general rule that RBs are devalued in the league and whether he was worth trading an oft-injured but young LB with potential straight up for. You don't(didn't) think he is. I think he is by any and every metric. Spiller was GOOD IN SPACE. Gilmore is a SHUT DOWN CORNER and a STUD. Whitner was a GOOD TACKLER. Watkins was the BEST WR IN THAT DRAFT. McCoy is ELITE We both could go on and on about these and other very costly mistakes. Even if the above descriptions are all true, the fact is that the wins are just not there. The playoff appearances are just not there. That is because of shaky quarterback play, poor drafting and planning, needlessly trading away draft selections, pitiful coaching, rank amateur GMs, and wasting cap space by signing players to unnecessarily inflated contracts. McCoy is a pleasure to watch most of the time, at least as of late. Still, count me as one who thinks the contract was dumb, and even typical of Whaley, who just can't wait to toss away our best resources. As you can see, Badol doesn't need me to speak for him and I am not trying to, but I sense that the above is at least partially his take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 It's funny that you think this supports your point. You guys really should gameplan better. It's obvious you don't understand the point. Sure a backup RB can do well in spots. It's the rare guy that can consistently do it year after year. Hence a guy like Karlos does well for a bit and then flames out for one reason or another. Gillislee is largely unproven and hopefully he's the future for the Bills at RB, but that's far from a given at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 It's obvious you don't understand the point. Sure a backup RB can do well in spots. It's the rare guy that can consistently do it year after year. Hence a guy like Karlos does well for a bit and then flames out for one reason or another. Gillislee is largely unproven and hopefully he's the future for the Bills at RB, but that's far from a given at this point. Karlos didn't flame out due to talent. Meanwhile, you just posted that a lazy stoner 5th round RB put up serious numbers with the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 @salmaiorana In yet another disappointing #bills season, LeSean McCoy is having a transcendent year. My story: http://on.rocne.ws/2h1e4JRvia @DandC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 I can't believe you guys are still spending more time out of your lives with this. Shady is amazing and worth every penny. It was a great trade for the bills. Be happy. Let the haters be all sad and sit in the corner and cry like babies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWATeam Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 I can't believe you guys are still spending more time out of your lives with this. Shady is amazing and worth every penny. It was a great trade for the bills. Be happy. Let the haters be all sad and sit in the corner and cry like babies. I can. People would rather hold on to their position at all costs than admit they are wrong and enjoy success. Sad. I can just imagine the anger every time Shady rips off a big run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Karlos didn't flame out due to talent. Meanwhile, you just posted that a lazy stoner 5th round RB put up serious numbers with the Bills. Never said it was due to talent, but there's always some reason most flame out. And he put up good numbers as a backup for a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Spiller was GOOD IN SPACE. Gilmore is a SHUT DOWN CORNER and a STUD. Whitner was a GOOD TACKLER. Watkins was the BEST WR IN THAT DRAFT. McCoy is ELITE We both could go on and on about these and other very costly mistakes. Even if the above descriptions are all true, the fact is that the wins are just not there. The playoff appearances are just not there. That is because of shaky quarterback play, poor drafting and planning, needlessly trading away draft selections, pitiful coaching, rank amateur GMs, and wasting cap space by signing players to unnecessarily inflated contracts. McCoy is a pleasure to watch most of the time, at least as of late. Still, count me as one who thinks the contract was dumb, and even typical of Whaley, who just can't wait to toss away our best resources. As you can see, Badol doesn't need me to speak for him and I am not trying to, but I sense that the above is at least partially his take. Dude, McCoy IS elite. The rest, you may have an argument. But if you think McCoy isn't elite, you're suffering from senile dementia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 (edited) Dude, McCoy IS elite. The rest, you may have an argument. But if you think McCoy isn't elite, you're suffering from senile dementia. Why don't you read the post again and then quickly consult a clinician. You might get squeezed in for an emergency visit. Maybe they can up your Abilify. Edited December 9, 2016 by Bill from NYC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Why don't you read the post again and then quickly consult a clinician. You might get squeezed in for an emergency visit. Maybe they can up your Abilify. Settle down, francis. We both could go on and on about these and other very costly mistakes. When you categorize McCoy as a mistake, EVEN WITH QUALIFIERS, you're wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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