eball Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Of course it is my own opinion but I had Shaq as a top 10 player in the draft and I believe he is a "valued" position because I think he can be a quality pass rusher. You clearly were not a huge fan of him coming out BADOL... that is fine. I disagree. I think the kid can be a star, I don't think it was a reach in any way shape or form. Plenty of record of me being high on him before we picked him too so I am not organisation defending. Gunner, I respect the heck out of you for trying to continue to make reasonable responses to #BADOL, but it's a shame he simply can't ever budge an inch from a position he stakes out on this board. It's as if his reputation is at stake or something; I don't get it. People can have opinions without implying that those with differing opinions are ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Perhaps Will Fuller would've been the better pick, he'd be the perfect fit in this offense given Ty's skill set and the decrepit state of our WR corps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 On the issue of whether Shaq was a reach or not..........since there are at least 100 projected first rounders in every draft........how would one accurately judge that beside their own opinion? Trade value? Would any team trade a prospective 20th overall pick in next years draft now for Shaq? I think Shaq or Ragland would have had to play ABSOLUTELY lights out to this point in the season have been worth where they were drafted to ANYONE.........while players at more valued positions like a top 10 quality pass rushing DE, LT, WR, CB and QB(obviously).......these guys would still have most, if not all of their original value at this point in the season even if they had been on IR to start the season and were coming back in week 7. Of the top-20 draft picks this year (or any year), how many have made a "lights out" impact to date? Every team "up" for trading a #3 for Bosa, a #7 for Buckner, a #12 for Rankins? I don't think so at this point, but it's a strange way to make an argument either way. The draft is a prospective business, and retrospectively, a significant number of players drafted in the top 2/3 of the 1st round don't go on to have "lights out" careers much less have immediate "lights out" impact. Regarding how one judges a "reach", draft pundits deserve skepticism....but there aren't 100 1st rounders in each pundit's mock draft. If the draft pundits consistently have a guy going in the first round, with most who get specific having him go above where he was picked 2/3 of the way through, it's generally considered that he wasn't a "reach". That's sort of the definition of "reach", it means "most draft pundits had a grade on the guy below where he was taken" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Where's this draft consensus you speak of? It's hard to win in the NFL and it's hard to have football discussions on TSW. Where's this draft consensus? Try the 2016 NFL mock drafts. Like I said, you'll see a consensus of about 20-25 players who were considered 1st rounders and about the same number who could potentially end up being drafted in the 1st round. But that's still well short of 100. And in every mock draft I saw, Lawson was no lower than 20, and as high as 9. Perhaps Will Fuller would've been the better pick, he'd be the perfect fit in this offense given Ty's skill set and the decrepit state of our WR corps... Hindsight is 20/20 and at 6' he's not the size receiver the Bills needed. At least they didn't waste a pick on Laquon Treadwell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRT88 Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 (edited) 1 Lorenzo Alexander BUF OLB 28 20 8 7.0 -- -- -- -- -- -- 2 Von Miller DEN OLB 20 13 7 6.5 -- -- -- -- -- -- 1 -- -- 3 Markus Golden ARI OLB 22 16 6 6.0 -- -- -- -- -- -- 1 -- -- 3 Brian Orakpo TEN OLB 16 12 4 6.0 -- -- -- -- -- -- 0 -- -- 5 Kerry Hyder DET DE 8 7 1 5.0 -- -- -- -- -- -- 0 -- -- 5 Leonard Williams NYJ DT 19 12 7 5.0 -- -- -- -- -- -- 2 -- -- 7 Vic Beasley ATL OLB 14 13 1 4.5 -- -- -- -- -- -- 2 -- -- 7 Trent Murphy WAS DE 18 11 7 4.5 -- -- -- -- -- -- 2 -- -- 7 Nick Perry GB OLB 17 11 6 4.5 -- -- -- -- -- -- 0 -- -- 1 Who saw this coming? Edited October 11, 2016 by KRT88 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 @john_wawrow From last night: Journeyman LB Lorenzo Alexander helps revive #Bills pass-rush attack | Pro32: Head to Head https://t.co/1FNDLJW3iR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 (edited) Of the top-20 draft picks this year (or any year), how many have made a "lights out" impact to date? Every team "up" for trading a #3 for Bosa, a #7 for Buckner, a #12 for Rankins? I don't think so at this point, but it's a strange way to make an argument either way. The draft is a prospective business, and retrospectively, a significant number of players drafted in the top 2/3 of the 1st round don't go on to have "lights out" careers much less have immediate "lights out" impact. Regarding how one judges a "reach", draft pundits deserve skepticism....but there aren't 100 1st rounders in each pundit's mock draft. If the draft pundits consistently have a guy going in the first round, with most who get specific having him go above where he was picked 2/3 of the way through, it's generally considered that he wasn't a "reach". That's sort of the definition of "reach", it means "most draft pundits had a grade on the guy below where he was taken" Like Doc, you've completely missed the point............if a player has to perform incredibly as a rookie to maintain that same value in trade.......he probably wasn't generally that valued by the NFL on the whole. And there is no consensus value board. NFL teams don't provide their boards to the public............and those 32 would be the most heavily weighted boards in any consensus. I, for one, don't think Shaq slipped because of the shoulder injury.........I think he didn't go sooner because teams want ELITE pass rushers........they don't want to use their valued high picks on and then give away high leverage down snaps to *good* players at those positions........they want HIGH HEAT from those spots........and I don't see Shaq that way. I think he's slow off the ball and doesn't use his arms well versus offensive tackles........he tries to lean his way around them......unless your name is Reggie White that doesn't fly in the NFL. Additionally, I think he's not anywhere near as athletic as Hughes or Lorax and therefore, since the team wants to use Hughes on the right side of the offense.....the"run" side........the bulk that Lawson brings in setting the edge is a lot less useful on the blind side. He is basically what LT's are built to handle. I trust GB's opinions and hope Shaq proves me wrong. Edited October 11, 2016 by #BADOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 I'm nervous for a PED test. There isn't anything about his season that makes sense. But props to him because he had been amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 I'm nervous for a PED test. There isn't anything about his season that makes sense. But props to him because he had been amazing. That is a good point I hadn't considered........I hope not, but at his desperate point in our playoff history I will take a Rodney Harrison-like juice revival if we can get away with it. My take has been that his success rushing the passer has kind of been like the formula that Eric Striker used to success against Kujo in that bowl game a few years back.............big LT's are built to handle players of a certain proportion and maneuverability........and Lorax is not that edge rusher type......he's a relentless run and hit LB who is smart, experienced and uses good technique and has a low-man leverage advantage that is proving very useful both in helping this defense do what it is designed to do.........fracture OL's vertically and create openings for blitzers......and taking advantage of that space himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 And I respect BADOL's view on Shaq too. It probably isn't worth us dicussing again for a year or two because we both know one another's opinion and time ultimately will tell. If Lawson ends up as a 5 sack a year guy who sets the edge really well and who is just a solid as heck player who maybe makes 1 pro bowl his career year then I will agree he wasn't worth the #19 investment. I think the kid can be a consistent top 10 pass rusher for 10 years as well as doing the other things in coverage and the run game effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Unfortunately it's what I've been thinking the whole time when watching this guy come out of no where. But maybe he just worked his ass off in the offseason. I'm the last person to call out players for PED but you never see players improve like this. It's insane that a journeyman ST suddenly became Bruce Smith. But I'll take it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dulles Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 I'm nervous for a PED test. There isn't anything about his season that makes sense. But props to him because he had been amazing. I said a similar thing in another Lorax thread... http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/189181-2017-alexander-woods-browngilmore/page-2?hl=lorax&do=findComment&comment=4082136 I've always wondered about the guys that are out a long period of time like Alexander was during 2013. Does the NFL test them while they are on IR or completely out of the league on an injury settlement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Gotta love Bills fans. In a matter of a few hours, we're now convinced Lorax is about to be suspended by the NFL for a PED violation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Gotta love Bills fans. In a matter of a few hours, we're now convinced Lorax is about to be suspended by the NFL for a PED violation. You don't think the fact that precisely no one is even remotely talking about this is a tad peculiar? It reeks of cover up to me. Where there is no smoke, there is often fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Gotta love Bills fans. In a matter of a few hours, we're now convinced Lorax is about to be suspended by the NFL for a PED violation. Haha, no one is being totally serious. But can anyone think of another example of football player dominating like this after basically doing nothing his whole career? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 You don't think the fact that precisely no one is even remotely talking about this is a tad peculiar? It reeks of cover up to me. Where there is no smoke, there is often fire. You mean e-fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Haha, no one is being totally serious. But can anyone think of another example of football player dominating like this after basically doing nothing his whole career? Rich Gannon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Rich Gannon. James Harrison, similar role as LorAx too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 James Harrison, similar role as LorAx too. Interesting and they are similarly sized. But Alexander had 9 career sacks in 9 seasons. Harrison had 58 through 9 seasons. I don't know if I ever have seen a defensive player have this sort of career resurrection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Perhaps Will Fuller would've been the better pick, he'd be the perfect fit in this offense given Ty's skill set and the decrepit state of our WR corps... Perhaps....I was thinking about this the other day.... but Its all hindsight...had no way of knowing these vets were gonna perform so well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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