thebandit27 Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 The trade to move up for Sammy was a bust. Now it is getting near time to put the bust label on him as well. He's made of glass. He's been a complete non-factor in over half the games he has played. Seriously outplayed by a number of others drafted after him. And he cost us an extra first and I think a 4th. Cut you hair little girl and start playing like a man. When folks play the "out produced" card, it tells me that they haven't really come to terms with what leads to production from NFL WRs. In general, number of targets is what determines production. See below for more analysis: http://fantasyguru.com/football/subscribers/articles/2015wrcatchypt.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 When folks play the "out produced" card, it tells me that they haven't really come to terms with what leads to production from NFL WRs. In general, number of targets is what determines production. See below for more analysis:http://fantasyguru.com/football/subscribers/articles/2015wrcatchypt.php Gotta be able to get on the field to get targets. He doesn't have the intangible of being able to stay injury free. He is like a great throughbred with supposed tons of potential showing flashes but unable to stay on the racetrack due to injuries. Whaley's 3rd major screwup with a number 1 draft choice. He needs to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 You can always come tailgate without putting yourself through all the anguish of going to the game... Thanks kindly i don't. That's why I don't let things bother me. It's a business to me now. I'm emotionally removed. At least for the time being. As I've said, I don't have any faith in this team or ownership or front office. If they happen to do well, great, if not, I expected chaos. I'm not the one (and I'm not saying you) that is getting all bent out of shape about other people's opinions about Sammy or any other player. It seems to me that people here (again, not you, or anyone in general, just as a whole) think about this team and the players with their heart and not their brains. If you look at them from a statistical standpoint it becomes more clear. I see what you mean and my point is only , if you not derive some pleasure or have fun in some fashion, it is a wasted exercise at some point. The challenge often, is finding the highlights ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Gotta be able to get on the field to get targets. He doesn't have the intangible of being able to stay injury free. He is like a great throughbred with supposed tons of potential showing flashes but unable to stay on the racetrack due to injuries. Whaley's 3rd major screwup with a number 1 draft choice. He needs to go. I agree that availability is a factor and is worth discussing. I don't agree, however, that he's deficient in that area. He's missed 3 of a possible 34 starts, and the all-22's show that he's getting separation reliably. He's simply not targeted enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 (edited) He's simply not targeted enough.Then why give up a king's ransom to get him if you're not going to (or can't) target him? And even though he hasn't missed many starts, Sammy has seemingly rarely been 100%, and it looks like he's going to be hobbled for much of this season, too, if not shut down altogether. When you use multiple high draft picks to acquire one player, you are putting all those eggs in one basket, instead of spreading the risk around. When that one player you selected gets hurt, your whole investment tanks. That's one of the reasons I hated giving up two extra 4th round picks to take Ragland, who promptly got himself hurt. Awful trade and entirely unnecessary. Edited September 23, 2016 by mannc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 (edited) I agree that availability is a factor and is worth discussing. I don't agree, however, that he's deficient in that area. He's missed 3 of a possible 34 starts, and the all-22's show that he's getting separation reliably. He's simply not targeted enough. But how many times is he limited due to injury? It seems like 80-90%. During these times he is not able to be all that he can be which is someone deserving of spending 2 first round picks on. If you look at what his cost was vs his production without looking at future potential(which may or may not happen and if it does it may not happen in Buffalo); It is hard to argue that this draft pick was a good one. Edited September 23, 2016 by jms62 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 ^ I completely agree that there's a fundamental disconnect between making the investment that they did and then failing to target him as one should with a player that they believe to be a premier talent. I'm sure part of that is due to health, but by the looks of it a much greater portion of the blame lies with the QB and OC. Like I said, the tape doesn't lie; he's getting separation. For me, the trade was fine on its face--I have no issue with moving up to get a guy that you believe is a premier playmaker. When examined in the context of his utilization rate within the offense, however, it certainly looks like a poor investment up to this point--I would wager that is a major reason why the OC is no longer employed and the QB has no guaranteed money beyond this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 ^ I completely agree that there's a fundamental disconnect between making the investment that they did and then failing to target him as one should with a player that they believe to be a premier talent. I'm sure part of that is due to health, but by the looks of it a much greater portion of the blame lies with the QB and OC. Like I said, the tape doesn't lie; he's getting separation. For me, the trade was fine on its face--I have no issue with moving up to get a guy that you believe is a premier playmaker. When examined in the context of his utilization rate within the offense, however, it certainly looks like a poor investment up to this point--I would wager that is a major reason why the OC is no longer employed and the QB has no guaranteed money beyond this season. You would think it would be easy enough to get him targets but we havent seen this for his entire career. He has never gotten targets one would think he should get based on him being the #1 guy. Seems so overly simply which makes me wonder if there is something we are missing that only coaches and players are aware of that is the reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 You would think it would be easy enough to get him targets but we havent seen this for his entire career. He has never gotten targets one would think he should get based on him being the #1 guy. Seems so overly simply which makes me wonder if there is something we are missing that only coaches and players are aware of that is the reason?Part of it is flat out negligence/incompetence at QB and OC and part of it is that the Bills run very few offensive plays. Hard to get Sammy a lot of targets when you are constantly going 3 and out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 ^ I agree with both of you Another component is that this team has had a very high run:pass ratio in comparison to the rest of the league. That goes back to the disconnect we talked about earlier; use the dude or don't trade picks to get him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 ^ I agree with both of you Another component is that this team has had a very high run:pass ratio in comparison to the rest of the league. That goes back to the disconnect we talked about earlier; use the dude or don't trade picks to get him. probably one reason Roman is out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty McFly Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 (edited) Then why give up a king's ransom to get him if you're not going to (or can't) target him? And even though he hasn't missed many starts, Sammy has seemingly rarely been 100%, and it looks like he's going to be hobbled for much of this season, too, if not shut down altogether. When you use multiple high draft picks to acquire one player, you are putting all those eggs in one basket, instead of spreading the risk around. When that one player you selected gets hurt, your whole investment tanks. That's one of the reasons I hated giving up two extra 4th round picks to take Ragland, who promptly got himself hurt. Awful trade and entirely unnecessary. If Ragland didnt get injured and played like a young Ray Lewis you wouldnt be saying that, and if he played like Aaron Maybin I wouldnt be saying this. hahaaa see how that works? It was a good pick just didnt work out this year but 2017 with Shaq and Reggie gonna be lit, I just hope whoever is the DC by then knows how to use them properly. As for Watkins, we signed him when the most likely QBs were EJ MANUEL and KOLB? Rite? Oh man BARF! I think that is a case of buying the baby clothes before your pregnant. Sometimes. and only sometimes.....I think if our team was better and we were actually a contender, Sammy wouldnt be "injured" so often......*shrugs shoulders drinks coffee* probably one reason Roman is out Yep. Its like having good weather and a Lamborgini but you consistently choose to drive around in a old but well kept Ford 4x4 pick up. Edited September 23, 2016 by Marty McFly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryCletus Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 If Ragland didnt get injured and played like a young Ray Lewis you wouldnt be saying that, and if he played like Aaron Maybin I wouldnt be saying this. hahaaa see how that works? It was a good pick just didnt work out this year but 2017 with Shaq and Reggie gonna be lit, I just hope whoever is the DC by then knows how to use them properly. As for Watkins, we signed him when the most likely QBs were EJ MANUEL and KOLB? Rite? Oh man BARF! I think that is a case of buying the baby clothes before your pregnant. Sometimes. and only sometimes.....I think if our team was better and we were actually a contender, Sammy wouldnt be "injured" so often......*shrugs shoulders drinks coffee* I think they believed that without a legit target on the outside, the run game would be the focus of the opposing defense... a healthy Sammy is an elite weapon, but we haven't seen much of that through the beginning of his career... hopefully this all starts to click... and soon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 If Ragland didnt get injured and played like a young Ray Lewis you wouldnt be saying that, and if he played like Aaron Maybin I wouldnt be saying this. hahaaa see how that works? It was a good pick just didnt work out this year but 2017 with Shaq and Reggie gonna be lit, I just hope whoever is the DC by then knows how to use them properly. As for Watkins, we signed him when the most likely QBs were EJ MANUEL and KOLB? Rite? Oh man BARF! I think that is a case of buying the baby clothes before your pregnant. Sometimes. and only sometimes.....I think if our team was better and we were actually a contender, Sammy wouldnt be "injured" so often......*shrugs shoulders drinks coffee* Yep. Its like having good weather and a Lamborgini but you consistently choose to drive around in a old but well kept Ford 4x4 pick up. Or choosing to drive that Lamborghini through a cornfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 I agree that availability is a factor and is worth discussing. I don't agree, however, that he's deficient in that area. He's missed 3 of a possible 34 starts, and the all-22's show that he's getting separation reliably. He's simply not targeted enough. I'm a big Watkins fan and generally agree with you, but he does look a little less explosive right now - as if he's favoring something. He is getting open, but unlike when he's healthy, he's not looking like the best player on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 I'm a big Watkins fan and generally agree with you, but he does look a little less explosive right now - as if he's favoring something. He is getting open, but unlike when he's healthy, he's not looking like the best player on the field. Which means his Yards after catch are going to be diminished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Joe BuscagliaVerified account @JoeBuscaglia 41m41 minutes ago No Sammy Watkins at the start of #Bills practice. Rutroh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Looks like he's not playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 If Ragland didnt get injured and played like a young Ray Lewis you wouldnt be saying that, and if he played like Aaron Maybin I wouldnt be saying this.I don't mind the pick itself; it's giving away two 4th round picks to move up a few slots when there are still loads of good players on the board and Ragland might be there when your turn comes anyway that I believe is inexcusable--a firing offense, actually. It amazes me how casually Whaley gives away our 4th round draft picks (Bryce Brown, Ragland, the extra pick to move up for Sammy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Looks like he's not playing. And all the excuses are there for Lynn when he goes full ground and pound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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