Jason Hatcher Rips the Refs

[MDH]

 

 

Every year, during training camp and the preseason, NFL players prove that many of them do not do a lot to stay in shape in the offseason, given the annual preseason rate of injuries.

 

You prove my point for me. Some guys don't do the work and they are worse for it.

 

I don't really care about what the NBA does. I'm talking about improving the NFL refs. It's a no brainer that the more they work at it the better they'll be. It might not be exciting for them doing drills and classroom work year round but it would make them better come Sunday.

[LeGOATski]

 

You prove my point for me. Some guys don't do the work and they are worse for it.

What do you mean? Stevie Johnson's basketball training worked wonders for him....

[DC Tom]

 

Hire full time refs who only officiate NFL games and that's their job. Let them work on their craft year round instead of doing it part time. I don't think there is any doubt that someone who devotes all of their work time to improving will be better than guys who do it in addition to whatever their profession is.

 

It wouldn't help. The fundamental problem isn't the refs, it's the rules - there's a written set that's overly detailed and nitpicky and changes every year, then there's the unwritten guidance the league provides to the officials saying "We need to focus on X this season." (Helmet-to-helmet hits, "defenseless receivers," etc.) You end up with a mix of supposedly objective rules, which are so excessively nitpicky that they're effectively subjective ("Well, that looks like it's against the rules."), and of completely subjective rules which may or may not be consistent with the supposedly objective ones.

 

And top that with the diffusion of responsibility that comes from having six refs on the field, plus coaches' challenges, plus booth reviews. Frankly, it's amazing the officials do nearly as well as they do in a system that's so !@#$ed up that the networks provide expert commentary specifically on the officiating itself. In what other sport do the officials get their own commentary from subject matter experts?

[LeGOATski]

 

It wouldn't help. The fundamental problem isn't the refs, it's the rules - there's a written set that's overly detailed and nitpicky and changes every year, then there's the unwritten guidance the league provides to the officials saying "We need to focus on X this season." (Helmet-to-helmet hits, "defenseless receivers," etc.) You end up with a mix of supposedly objective rules, which are so excessively nitpicky that they're effectively subjective ("Well, that looks like it's against the rules."), and of completely subjective rules which may or may not be consistent with the supposedly objective ones.

 

And top that with the diffusion of responsibility that comes from having six refs on the field, plus coaches' challenges, plus booth reviews. Frankly, it's amazing the officials do nearly as well as they do in a system that's so !@#$ed up that the networks provide expert commentary specifically on the officiating itself. In what other sport do the officials get their own commentary from subject matter experts?

When you have two referee teams calling it a different way, or two refs on the same team calling it differently, or even the same ref calling it differently from drive to drive, it's a referee issue, not a rules issue.

 

When Jones spikes the ball after sacking Teddy Bridgewater and no flag is thrown, it's a ref issue.

[DC Tom]

When you have two referee teams calling it a different way, or two refs on the same team calling it differently, or even the same ref calling it differently from drive to drive, it's a referee issue, not a rules issue.

 

When Jones spikes the ball after sacking Teddy Bridgewater and no flag is thrown, it's a ref issue.

 

It's a rules issue when two referee teams interpret their conflicting instructions differently.

[LeGOATski]

 

It's a rules issue when two referee teams interpret their conflicting instructions differently.

It's a refs issue for not being consistent with their interpretation. Not having a standard way to call it. This is where more collaboration during the offseason would come in, if they actually did it right.

 

And, of course, it's a refs issue when they don't call a blatant penalty. More training and repetition in the offseason would limit those brain-fart mistakes, I imagine.

[BUFFALOKIE]

Honestly, I seriously questioned the NFL's decision to review calls from a central location in NY. The NFL and NFL betting are multibillion dollar industries do you really believe they leave it to chance. They review penalties, but not the most painful game changer (pass interferference) how many Bills games have been decided by a phantom pass interference call, and who can really look at an instant replay on a reception that's being reviewed and consistantly mirror the decision made in NY. The announcers can't do it and the majority of them played in the NFL. If the NFL wasn't a little cozy with the Vegas book why are they so adamant there is a complete and honest injury report? It's my oppinion the oddsmakers are the chief beneficiary of the injury report. Back when the Bills were going to Super Bowls the majority of officials were lawyers and accountants during the week, whom better could hide payoff money. I believe the NFL and Vegas have been in collusion and it goes back as far as the Jets-Colts Super Bowl. Now that calls are being reviewed in a central location all games can be controlled. There is a lot of money on the line every week, and if you don't believe it's possible then you haven't been paying attention to how multibillion dollar industries have operated in America for some time now.

Don't gamble against the house. Simple solution. Unfortunately, many people do, and always will, and it affects the games I watch...The game I expect to be up and up.

[Mr. WEO]

 

You prove my point for me. Some guys don't do the work and they are worse for it.

 

I don't really care about what the NBA does. I'm talking about improving the NFL refs. It's a no brainer that the more they work at it the better they'll be. It might not be exciting for them doing drills and classroom work year round but it would make them better come Sunday.

 

 

I've proven that making the NFL refs full time would have no impact on their performance because it hasn't done so in every other league with full time refs.

 

 

 

It's a rules issue when two referee teams interpret their conflicting instructions differently.

 

 

Tom is right. Whole categories of rules need to be simplified or eliminated.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Mr. WEO

[mannc]

 

 

I've proven that making the NFL refs full time would have no impact on their performance because it hasn't done so in every other league with full time refs.

 

 

Correct. And the experience of other leagues tells us that by expanding replay you will get more calls right without seriously impacting the pace of the game.

[section122]

I hate you guys for making me agree with WEO. Now on to my post..

 

A lot of you are acting like this is easy. You are acting like the refs get these calls wrong because they don't care or because they are too lazy to know the rules. These are the best of the best. You don't just get to sign up to be an NFL official. You must prove yourself starting at the High School level. I have looked into advancement with refereeing and it isn't easy. I currently ref High School soccer so get your jokes ready. That said I have looked into what it takes to move up. If any of you were to sign up to become a ref you would spend 2 years on probation before moving to "active" status. This allows you to referee varsity games. After a year or 2 of that and with a recommendation you can do college sports. You don't start d1 though you start juco/d3. From there you can move up to d1. You are looking at a 10 year minimum investment to make it to that. You are graded for every game at every level. This does very much matter.

 

Grades are what lets you progress. Grades are your reputation. They don't just pick people that have done tons of games they pick people who have done tons of games well. You guys are acting like full time officiating is a requirement. It isn't. Football is going on for 7 months of the year. Refs attend training camp and get work in then. They also attend camps throughout the off season. This isn't a job where they do nothing all week long and show up at the stadium on Sunday ready to work. This also isn't a job you get into for the glamour and money. This is a job you do because you love the sport.

 

Please remember these are human beings. They are not machines and can't be perfect. There are 22 players on the field. They are 7 officials. Think about that for a second. 120 yards and 22 bodies need to be watched by 14 eyes. Without the benefit of instant replay for most of their calls. As someone else said, the fact they do as well as they do is a miracle. The rule book is atrocious. To understand the rules you need to delve deep into it and learn every little ridiculous trivial rule that covers a scenario you may see once over a 25 year career. Human emotion also comes in to play. Think about how hard it is to not only see the play and make the call but then deal with 70k people yelling at you every time they think you purposely screwed them.

 

It is a very tough job. I'm sure this won't get read by most but I had to type it out. Preemptive threads about how the refs will screw us is understandable but just wanted to offer another perspective. Lastly think about this. Bad calls go both ways. During a game you can find calls that should or should not have been made. Where the Pats* are frustrating is they seemingly capitalize on every blown call/call in their favor. That makes the calls seem worse because the end result is worse. A penalty that keeps a drive alive and results in 7 points hurts but the penalty is only part of the 7 points. Giving up the rest of the drive is on the defense/team.

 

Now I will go puke for having to defend refs* and agreeing with WEO.

[billykaykay]

 

This.

 

Instead of trotting out a group of 50-60 year old men who only do this part time, make it a full time job and bring in refs who are in their physical and mental prime.

 

If the refs were working together all offseason on what should be called and when, I think you would at least have more consistency.

 

I understand human error and dont expect these guys to be perfect robots, but there is plenty of ground to make up until they are even close to that, and they need to be way better than they are currently.

It's not the refs as much as it is the rules. After 5 yds, DB's can't touch a receiver. The rule is stupid. Years ago, DB's could touch the receiver up until the pass was in the air. Too many ticky tack touching penalties. Too many flags.

Some bad decisions on what is a catch. Does anyone here actually know when a catch is a catch? Too many reviews. They should use the college rule of one foot inbounds. There would be less replays needed & speedier play. It works fine for the college game. If the rules weren't ticky tacky, the refs wouldn't be throwing yellow after every play.

OT's hold DE's almost every passing down. It is often egregious and still not called.

I have mentioned before that G's & OT's should have to wear some type of covering on their hand so they would be unable to grip a pass rusher. Something without a thumb would work.

Off topic I know, but another rule change ought to be the college rule where the clock is stopped after a first down until the sticks are moved. This would do away with the worst & most boring play in football - the spike. The league wants fantastic finishes - this would do it.

[LeGOATski]

I hate you guys for making me agree with WEO. Now on to my post..

 

A lot of you are acting like this is easy. You are acting like the refs get these calls wrong because they don't care or because they are too lazy to know the rules. These are the best of the best. You don't just get to sign up to be an NFL official. You must prove yourself starting at the High School level. I have looked into advancement with refereeing and it isn't easy. I currently ref High School soccer so get your jokes ready. That said I have looked into what it takes to move up. If any of you were to sign up to become a ref you would spend 2 years on probation before moving to "active" status. This allows you to referee varsity games. After a year or 2 of that and with a recommendation you can do college sports. You don't start d1 though you start juco/d3. From there you can move up to d1. You are looking at a 10 year minimum investment to make it to that. You are graded for every game at every level. This does very much matter.

 

Grades are what lets you progress. Grades are your reputation. They don't just pick people that have done tons of games they pick people who have done tons of games well. You guys are acting like full time officiating is a requirement. It isn't. Football is going on for 7 months of the year. Refs attend training camp and get work in then. They also attend camps throughout the off season. This isn't a job where they do nothing all week long and show up at the stadium on Sunday ready to work. This also isn't a job you get into for the glamour and money. This is a job you do because you love the sport.

 

Please remember these are human beings. They are not machines and can't be perfect. There are 22 players on the field. They are 7 officials. Think about that for a second. 120 yards and 22 bodies need to be watched by 14 eyes. Without the benefit of instant replay for most of their calls. As someone else said, the fact they do as well as they do is a miracle. The rule book is atrocious. To understand the rules you need to delve deep into it and learn every little ridiculous trivial rule that covers a scenario you may see once over a 25 year career. Human emotion also comes in to play. Think about how hard it is to not only see the play and make the call but then deal with 70k people yelling at you every time they think you purposely screwed them.

 

It is a very tough job. I'm sure this won't get read by most but I had to type it out. Preemptive threads about how the refs will screw us is understandable but just wanted to offer another perspective. Lastly think about this. Bad calls go both ways. During a game you can find calls that should or should not have been made. Where the Pats* are frustrating is they seemingly capitalize on every blown call/call in their favor. That makes the calls seem worse because the end result is worse. A penalty that keeps a drive alive and results in 7 points hurts but the penalty is only part of the 7 points. Giving up the rest of the drive is on the defense/team.

 

Now I will go puke for having to defend refs* and agreeing with WEO.

Good post.

 

The point is that there are missed calls which aren't complicated at all. No one's saying the refs need to be perfect.

 

Two examples come to mind from yesterday alone and it's the kind of stuff you'll see every Sunday if you watch all the games.

 

1. Packers' DT Jones sacks Bridgewater. He grabs the ball and spikes it into the ground. There's a ref right there. No penalty.

 

2. I forget which game it was, but the replay showed the ref in the foreground, looking directly at the WR and DB, as the DB hooked the WR's arm. It was clear as day on the replay and the shot was coming from right behind the ref, looking in from the same angle.

 

These aren't complicated calls. It's these easy calls that people expect to be ruled consistently. The notions of "it's just part of the game," "it is what it is," etc, are annoying. The inconsistencies from game to game, drive to drive, ref to ref, don't need to be part of the game.

 

The NBA is the same way. Call something at one end, but miss the same thing at the other end. It's easy for fans to see it, but somehow a ref standing right at the base line can't see it...or chooses not to see it.

 

Not to mention, sometimes refs will still get a call wrong after looking at the replay. There's no excuse. Even if the process to become an NFL ref takes forever, that doesn't mean there can't be more turnover. We've been watching Walt Coleman screw up calls for a while now...he was the ref for that Packers/Vikings game, actually...

[Punching Bag]

NFL success should be cyclical as it is currently set up, unfortunately Mr. Wilson was trying to make the case small market teams couldn't be succesful without profit sharing around the last time the Bills should have cycled up, I love Marve Levy, but his hiring as GM was a hatchet job on the organisation.

Marv Levy was hired to try to get some good will into organization after Donahoe alienated many fans with his responses especially to the bag wearing spectators; that goal was accomplished and Marv did overstay his welcome. Only hatchet job was by media and fans.

[DrDawkinstein]

Maybe if they were working on learning the rule book year-round, they'd know how to properly address an inadvertent whistle?

[LeGOATski]

What's the rule here? Honest question.

 

Do you see a difference? One was called for illegal formation on the RT.

 

 

 

I looked up "illegal formation" in the NFL rule book. Nothing specific about a lineman "off the line of scrimmage." The idea makes sense, but where do they draw the line to call it consistently?

[section122]

What's the rule here? Honest question.

 

Do you see a difference? One was called for illegal formation on the RT.

 

 

 

 

 

I looked up "illegal formation" in the NFL rule book. Nothing specific about a lineman "off the line of scrimmage." The idea makes sense, but where do they draw the line to call it consistently?

I don't know why I know this but I do.

If you look at the top picture Seantrel is not lined up correctly. A part of him needs to be in line with the center. Not all of him just part of him. If you look Seantrel is too far back. In the bottom part it is close but it appears that the RT helmet is right at the backside of the centers butt. Basically you have to be able to draw a straight line and hit every player. In the bottom pic if you draw a line down the 33 yard line you will get every player touching that line. In the top picture Seantrel isn't too far off but it does appear he isn't lined up correctly.

[LeGOATski]

I don't know why I know this but I do.

If you look at the top picture Seantrel is not lined up correctly. A part of him needs to be in line with the center. Not all of him just part of him. If you look Seantrel is too far back. In the bottom part it is close but it appears that the RT helmet is right at the backside of the centers butt. Basically you have to be able to draw a straight line and hit every player. In the bottom pic if you draw a line down the 33 yard line you will get every player touching that line. In the top picture Seantrel isn't too far off but it does appear he isn't lined up correctly.

Good explanation and very close.

 

So the "drawn line" for the Bills would be at the Pats' 48. The drawn line for the Pats is at the Pats' 27. You be the judge...

 

And is this penalty actually Miller's fault for lining up a little too far back? Seantrel positions himself in relation to Miller. You can see his head is jsut behind Miller's right shoulder and the Pats' RT is the same way in relation to his RG.

[section122]

Good explanation and very close.

 

So the "drawn line" for the Bills would be at the Pats' 48. The drawn line for the Pats is at the Pats' 27. You be the judge...

 

And is this penalty actually Miller's fault for lining up a little too far back? Seantrel positions himself in relation to Miller. You can see his head is jsut behind Miller's right shoulder and the Pats' RT is the same way in relation to his RG.

27 yes thanks for the correction. I was looking at the field backwards. I had not thought of that but would say yes it is fair that it would fall on Miller and Henderson would use him to gauge his position. Both pictures are close but Henderson is clearly not lined up correctly. The pats* picture it is a little harder to tell.

[KD in CA]

Maybe I'm naive, but I think the inconsistency in calling penalties is more due to the fact that the refs are human, and miss things/get things wrong, like humans do. We just have 100 cameras all in super duper HD to catch it all now. The hyper scrutiny is kind of ridiculous.

 

And now that the NFL has robbed the refs of their instincts by inserting that hyper scrutiny into the game via replay rules, it's slowly dawning on people that 1) even with replay it still comes down to human judgement which is inconsistent and 2) the majority of calls can not be conclusively determined no matter how many replay angles you have. Shady's TD being one easy example.

[Kelly the Dog]

Looks to me like both Bills tackles are technically in the backfield rather than on the line, and either could have been called for that. No excuse. Not on the coaches. They have been lining up since sixth grade.