EJ as Evaluated by FSU fans - Caution: pretty brutal

[FireChan]

I have no issue with the bolded. I have no issue with any of your posts really. (you weren't on the darick bandwagon were you? I always get you and Kirby mixed up lol). The passionate he sucks, he will never be good, posts just get my goat.

 

Cassel to me is dead bird in the hand lol. His best year was qbing one of the best offenses of all time. His second best year was mediocre other than the 27:7 tds to ints. The rest of his career is bad. To me he is a byproduct of Brady's injury and the aura of Belicheck drafted him he must be decent. If he didn't get to quarterback that Pats* team how long do you think a 7th round pick that didn't play in college would have lasted in the league? Point being he got a chance which I don't feel EJ has gotten and certainly TT hasn't (no shame being stuck behind Flacco).

 

His second best year he completed 60.2% of his passes. Do you realize that he only has 2 years of completing more than 60% in his career? Or just 2 years of more than 3000 yards? Or that he averages 174.7 ypg for his career? None of this says to me he is any good. Chiefs fans have an active dislike of the guy, Vikings fans were relieved to be done with guy. As I stated in another post he is worse over his career than Orton. Sure he is veteran but what does that seriously mean? That he hung around the league? So did Todd Collins, so did many other mediocre guys.

He does suck though. Right now, he's bad.

[BillsVet]

 

You need to change your name to "Strawman", as I've never seen anyone so intent on arguing points that I've never made.

 

My very first comment in this thread addressed that the team hadn't drafted a QB in nearly a decade, yet here you are arguing that I don't believe in drafting QBs. How anyone can be so absent-minded in such a clear discussion is astonishing.

 

My point, since you somehow are missing it (I no longer believe it's intentional, you've now convinced me that you simply do not understand or refuse to read), is this: in 2013, the team had no prospective QB of the future, and therefore needed to attempt to bring one in via the draft. They did so by (a) trading back to gain more picks, and (b) picking the guy that they felt had the best chance to become a franchise QB. I then further explained that I didn't understand why anyone had any confusion about this pick at the time that it was made and moving forward from that point.

 

I have said, on many, many occasions, that the team erred in not picking certain QBs in 2011 (Dalton, Kaepernick) and 2012 (Wilson, Foles). That changes nothing with regard to the 2013 draft for many reasons:

 

1. Nix was the GM in 2011 and 2012. Actually, he was still the GM in 2013, but because he had one foot out the door, Whaley was far more involved in the process. You want to criticize Whaley for not picking a QB in 2011 and 2012, while simultaneously ripping him for picking one in 2013, a mindset that makes less than zero sense.

2. The team cannot retroactively draft players. In May of 2013, they can only use draft picks on players in the 2013 draft, since the 2011 and 2012 drafts are over. That's why they picked EJ in 2013 instead of using their 2013 draft picks to pluck Russ Wilson or Nick Foles off of someone else's roster. This shouldn't need to be explained.

 

Could Whaley have picked another QB in 2013? Sure, he could have. Tell me who would've been a good option and I'll listen.

 

Could he have taken a QB in 2014? Sure...not a single one of those guys looked great at the time, and only Bridgewater has shown any signs of life. Could they have moved up to get him from the 41st pick? Sure. I'll bet they could've given up a similar package to Minnesota...of course, that would've left them with only one other draft pick that year, and how great would that be to spend an entire draft, plus the following year's 1st and 4th round picks, on 2 players, one of whom is a QB, the year after picking a QB in the 1st round? Find me one GM that would've made that move.

 

Lastly, the 2015 draft. Again, since you cannot retroactively draft players, Whaley has to operate moving forward. They weren't in position to get Mariota or Winston, and obviously didn't like any of the 3rd/4th round guys, so they opted instead to bring in Cassel and Taylor. You may not like those guys, but that's a proactive move aimed at trying to get better.

 

I firmly believe they'll continue to try to get better at the position, just as they've done every offseason since 2013. The fact that you didn't like the plan doesn't mean there wasn't one.

 

My point remains that the "strategy" of not taking a QB until they had no long term option (i.e. post Fitz) is why they're in this QB predicament today. You've said that they did what they had to do when on draft day 2013. I choose to look at it deeper, which is to say, why they were in the place they were at in 2013 at all.

 

You don't get a lot of shots at good QB prospects and choosing to eschew the position entirely at the outset of a rebuild isn't what I'd call a good professional strategy. It's actually the prime reason they're 0 for 5 in playoff appearances since Nix took over.

[Fixxxer]

I have no issue with the bolded. I have no issue with any of your posts really. (you weren't on the darick bandwagon were you? I always get you and Kirby mixed up lol). The passionate he sucks, he will never be good, posts just get my goat.

 

Cassel to me is dead bird in the hand lol. His best year was qbing one of the best offenses of all time. His second best year was mediocre other than the 27:7 tds to ints. The rest of his career is bad. To me he is a byproduct of Brady's injury and the aura of Belicheck drafted him he must be decent. If he didn't get to quarterback that Pats* team how long do you think a 7th round pick that didn't play in college would have lasted in the league? Point being he got a chance which I don't feel EJ has gotten and certainly TT hasn't (no shame being stuck behind Flacco).

 

His second best year he completed 60.2% of his passes. Do you realize that he only has 2 years of completing more than 60% in his career? Or just 2 years of more than 3000 yards? Or that he averages 174.7 ypg for his career? None of this says to me he is any good. Chiefs fans have an active dislike of the guy, Vikings fans were relieved to be done with guy. As I stated in another post he is worse over his career than Orton. Sure he is veteran but what does that seriously mean? That he hung around the league? So did Todd Collins, so did many other mediocre guys.

 

I agree, here are some interesting numbers.

 

In 10 years in the league, Cassel helped his teams win in 33 games out of 71 with an avg. of 0.464. with 95 TDs scored (combined) and with 105 turnovers (70 ints & 35 fumbles lost) We can all agree that both the Patriots and Chiefs were good, solid teams.

 

In two years, EJ Manuel helped his team win in 6 out 14 games, that is a 0.428 avg. with 19 TDs scored (combined) and 16 turnovers (12 ints & 4 fumbles lost)

 

 

I don't really see how he can be deemed the realiable starter, the safe bet as they say, when there's 10 year data that concludes that he is less than average as a starting NFL QB.

 

The good news regarding Cassel (and all QBs actually) is that he has shown improvements the last couple of practices, lets hopè he can continue this upward trend, I will support him fully is he's named the starter.

[Bangarang]

If your best trait as a QB is your size then it doesn't make a good recipe for success. What can people say EJ is good at? Not something that he has shown the occasional flash in but actually have seen enough consistently to know he is good at any particular thing?

Edited August 12, 2015 by Bangarang

[Fadingpain]

If your best trait as a QB is your size then it doesn't make a good recipe for success. What can people say EJ is good at? Not something that he has shown the occasional flash in but actually have seen enough consistently to know he is good at any particular thing?

He's outstanding at moving his eyes slowly.

 

[thebandit27]

 

My point remains that the "strategy" of not taking a QB until they had no long term option (i.e. post Fitz) is why they're in this QB predicament today. You've said that they did what they had to do when on draft day 2013. I choose to look at it deeper, which is to say, why they were in the place they were at in 2013 at all.

 

You don't get a lot of shots at good QB prospects and choosing to eschew the position entirely at the outset of a rebuild isn't what I'd call a good professional strategy. It's actually the prime reason they're 0 for 5 in playoff appearances since Nix took over.

I don't know any other way to say this: no kidding.

 

We know why they were in that position in 2013. What I have said to you repeatedly is that that's not Whaley's doing, yet you continue to criticize the current regime for the previous regime's mistakes.

 

If your point in the QB discussion is always going to be that they didn't draft one in 2011 and 2012, then allow me to reassure you: we all know that.

 

I have no idea why you felt compelled to hash that out in painstaking fashion in response to my comment about not understand what others don't understand about why they picked EJ. And for future reference, please assume that I know the team's drafting history in these discussions.

[BobbyC81]

 

As to the bolded section this is the conundrum. Matt Cassel has proven to be bad add in the fact that he is old and he certainly isn't going to sway a player like Dareus. I want TT or EJ to start foall hope that they will improve and heck they might actually do it. Cassel will not be improving at 11 years in. I know Cassel is bad. .

I wouldn't say Cassel is bad. Average? Mediocre? Yes. I think they can win with him.

[metzelaars_lives]

After tonight's practice, John Murphy, the biggest EJ advocate of them all, just said, "I don't know, it just seems like the other two guys are getting better and progressing and EJ is just not progressing." Guys, the writing is pretty much on the wall at this point, is it not?

[harv shitz]

Just another thoughtless, uninformed, wasted pick by Buddy Nix. He had zero business making draft picks, as he was totally out of touch with the modern game.

 

Let's just all hope that with the change in ownership, we won't have to deal with coaches and GM's that shouldn't even be in the league, never mind having the power to make personnel decisions.

 

E.J. won't even be on the roster after the final cut, I'm certain of it.

Edited August 13, 2015 by harv shitz

[Bangarang]

Just another thoughtless, uninformed, wasted pick by Buddy Nix. He had zero business making draft picks, as he was totally out of touch with the modern game.

 

Let's just all hope that with the change in ownership, we won't have to deal with coaches and GM's that shouldn't even be in the league, never mind having the power to make personnel decisions.

 

E.J. won't even be on the roster after the final cut, I'm certain of it.

The very core of our team was drafted and signed by Nix..

[Solomon Grundy]

After tonight's practice, John Murphy, the biggest EJ advocate of them all, just said, "I don't know, it just seems like the other two guys are getting better and progressing and EJ is just not progressing." Guys, the writing is pretty much on the wall at this point, is it not?

This was disheartening!!

[Formerly Allan in MD]

If James Winson is so god like at QB....then why does he throw so many interceptions?

There's no comparison between Winston and EJ as a football player, and especially a quarterback. I'll take Winston in a second, including his interceptions, as a prospective pro bowler.

[thewildrabbit]

First off, any QB the team would have drafted the last 15 years would have been beaten to a pulp, and rendered useless after a few years. Case in point JP Losman, Trent Edwards.

No question in my mind that the morons coaching the Bills over the last 15 season were more useless then any QB they could have drafted or obtained in free agency. Fitz could get the ball out usually in under 2 seconds and he was still hit way more then he should have been!

 

 

Now that the Bills finally have a decent HC, OC, O line coach, along with some top players things could be drastically different for any rookie / young QB. Although I'm not so sure about the QB coach looking back at how Geno Smith performed last season, and what the guy did with Fitz when he was here before. I'm also not to keen on the starting right side of that line with a rookie at RG, and a still developing RT.

 

Cassel could be the right guy to manage the offense and not make mistakes in turning the ball over, and a lot will depend on how well that line blocks for the statuesque QB. We will see on Friday.

I have no faith in TT in that he will become anything other then a turnover machine. JMO

 

 

EJ being on Doug Maroon's staff, and he was being tutored by a moron who didn't know how to do his own job much less help a first year QB develop. EJ still needs time to develop properly, and should the Bills have that power run game working like it did in SF then I can see EJ eventually maturing into a decent starter. It makes no sense to me to give up on a QB with only 14 starts when the guy has a winning record when the team actually ran the ball, and the QB wasn't being asked to throw 40+ times a game. JMO

 

[thebandit27]

 

First off, any QB the team would have drafted the last 15 years would have been beaten to a pulp, and rendered useless after a few years. Case in point JP Losman, Trent Edwards.

 

 

 

[Gordio]

 

First off, any QB the team would have drafted the last 15 years would have been beaten to a pulp, and rendered useless after a few years. Case in point JP Losman, Trent Edwards.

No question in my mind that the morons coaching the Bills over the last 15 season were more useless then any QB they could have drafted or obtained in free agency. Fitz could get the ball out usually in under 2 seconds and he was still hit way more then he should have been!

 

 

Now that the Bills finally have a decent HC, OC, O line coach, along with some top players things could be drastically different for any rookie / young QB. Although I'm not so sure about the QB coach looking back at how Geno Smith performed last season, and what the guy did with Fitz when he was here before. I'm also not to keen on the starting right side of that line with a rookie at RG, and a still developing RT.

 

Cassel could be the right guy to manage the offense and not make mistakes in turning the ball over, and a lot will depend on how well that line blocks for the statuesque QB. We will see on Friday.

I have no faith in TT in that he will become anything other then a turnover machine. JMO

 

 

EJ being on Doug Maroon's staff, and he was being tutored by a moron who didn't know how to do his own job much less help a first year QB develop. EJ still needs time to develop properly, and should the Bills have that power run game working like it did in SF then I can see EJ eventually maturing into a decent starter. It makes no sense to me to give up on a QB with only 14 starts when the guy has a winning record when the team actually ran the ball, and the QB wasn't being asked to throw 40+ times a game. JMO

 

 

 

 

I hear this arguement all the time & just don't buy it. Case in point none of these guys we had at QB ever went on to do something good after they left Buffalo. You honestly think that if Gailey had Manning or Brees at QB he would not still be coaching the Bills today? One poster said it best. EJ is an athlete trying to play QB. He does not have the makeup to be a good QB. With that being said, I would be willing to roll the dice with EJ or Taylor. At least there maybe some upside. Cassell you pretty much know what you are getting and it isn't pretty.

[ko12010]

 

First off, any QB the team would have drafted the last 15 years would have been beaten to a pulp, and rendered useless after a few years. Case in point JP Losman, Trent Edwards.

No question in my mind that the morons coaching the Bills over the last 15 season were more useless then any QB they could have drafted or obtained in free agency. Fitz could get the ball out usually in under 2 seconds and he was still hit way more then he should have been!

 

 

Now that the Bills finally have a decent HC, OC, O line coach, along with some top players things could be drastically different for any rookie / young QB. Although I'm not so sure about the QB coach looking back at how Geno Smith performed last season, and what the guy did with Fitz when he was here before. I'm also not to keen on the starting right side of that line with a rookie at RG, and a still developing RT.

 

Cassel could be the right guy to manage the offense and not make mistakes in turning the ball over, and a lot will depend on how well that line blocks for the statuesque QB. We will see on Friday.

I have no faith in TT in that he will become anything other then a turnover machine. JMO

 

 

EJ being on Doug Maroon's staff, and he was being tutored by a moron who didn't know how to do his own job much less help a first year QB develop. EJ still needs time to develop properly, and should the Bills have that power run game working like it did in SF then I can see EJ eventually maturing into a decent starter. It makes no sense to me to give up on a QB with only 14 starts when the guy has a winning record when the team actually ran the ball, and the QB wasn't being asked to throw 40+ times a game. JMO

 

 

This is a good point imo, and one that most people don't seem to understand. Generally, you're hoping to have a solid team around a prospective QB when you draft him. We've been bad as a whole for over a decade. It's not like QB was the final piece of the puzzle. Players succeed in the right environment.

[thebandit27]

This is a good point imo, and one that most people don't seem to understand. Generally, you're hoping to have a solid team around a prospective QB when you draft him. We've been bad as a whole for over a decade. It's not like QB was the final piece of the puzzle. Players succeed in the right environment.

 

I agree that the team wasn't necessarily a QB away.

 

However, I challenge you to find one example of a QB that was held back from even moderate success by his OL. Sure, there's examples of guys who had better seasons behind a more solid OL, but it isn't like JP Losman or Trent Edwards were going to become Philip Rivers if given a better OL (which I believe was the point of the post).

[Wayne Cubed]

 

I agree that the team wasn't necessarily a QB away.

 

However, I challenge you to find one example of a QB that was held back from even moderate success by his OL. Sure, there's examples of guys who had better seasons behind a more solid OL, but it isn't like JP Losman or Trent Edwards were going to become Philip Rivers if given a better OL (which I believe was the point of the post).

 

Yea but look at how good Tony Romo was behind a bunch of 1st round picks last year. Oh wait, he was top 10 QB before that.

[Mr. WEO]

 

First off, any QB the team would have drafted the last 15 years would have been beaten to a pulp, and rendered useless after a few years. Case in point JP Losman, Trent Edwards.

 

 

 

 

 

It's stunning to realize someone would believe this or think this way...

[thebandit27]

 

Yea but look at how good Tony Romo was behind a bunch of 1st round picks last year. Oh wait, he was top 10 QB before that.

 

You know, it's funny that you mention Romo, because he's the one guy that I think of when it comes to the idea that the OL merely exposes the QB, not makes or breaks him.

 

In 2006, the Cowboys made the change from Bledsoe to Romo. Bledsoe started 6 games and was sacked 16 times in 169 pass attempts; that's 2.67 sacks per game and an average of 10.56 attempts/sack.

 

Romo comes in and starts 10 games, and all of a sudden, the numbers drop. He's sacked 21 times in 10 starts while attempting 337 passes; that's 1.6 sacks per game and an average of slightly over 16 attempts/sack.

 

Huge, huge difference.