Marrone in 2015

[boyst]

I think the benefits of continuity outweigh the so-called simplicity of finding a new OC--which I also don't believe is as easy as you're suggesting.

This is very much true. Still, bringing in someone like a Jake Locker tier QB (sorry he's the only one I ever remember other then Mallet) could be important. It could allow us to count Manuel as expendable. I don't like the idea of carrying 3 QB's on the roster next year but I don't like the idea of handcuffing ourselves to Orton/Manuel, either, so long as Hackett is the one holding he key.

 

and that might beg the question, is it easier to upgrade our OC? (i think options that are bigger upgrades than we likely see at QB will be available)

and will that upgrade atleast help put a bandaid on the QB problem? (i think it would be hard to argue that hackett is getting 100% out of orton, even if you accept ortons not very good)

 

i wouldnt advocate blindly firing hackett on the flight home from the final game and not having a guy in line, but i do think that the team would be well served to have whaley discretely investigating what options would be available and willing to accept the job

It has not been done often or easily, but bringing in an Offensive Guru as a Quality coach or assistant may pay off. I do not know Hackett enough to know but Marrone I do. Marrone is a Czar type of coach, IMO. Hackett may be more humble and willing to get assistance from outside sources. He is still very young, very green and raw. There may be a good opportunity for him to expand his knowledge with some mentoring. Summoning the likes of the ghost of Bill Walsh to the organization or who knows who might be worthwhile. Maybe getting Jay Gruden to come in and help out at QB coach or assistant. I know that is a big step down but he was not ready for the big time and it'd be a good chance for him to let people forget about the Redskins fiasco.

[Canadian Bills Fan]

Anyone see the Tweets about Brandon giving Marrone a vote of confidence saying he may not like all the play calls but he is doing a good job?

 

I dont remember them all word for word but maybe 26 or Yolo can post them

 

 

CBF

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

I think the benefits of continuity outweigh the so-called simplicity of finding a new OC--which I also don't believe is as easy as you're suggesting.

I'm fine with continuity if it's working. They changed d coordinators (and a large part of the defensive staff) last year after a good year and improved quite a bit. The offensive coaching is bad and it's really hard to argue otherwise. I think that Marrone stays, Schwartz hopefully stays (but may have some head coaching chances) and Hackett goes.

 

There are lots and lots of talented offensive minds out there now; it's an offensive game. I may get flamed for this but I'd have no issue whatsoever with Chan coming back as the OC. He moved the football with lousy talent. I'd be open to other options as well but think that he'd do well with the group (middle of the league anyways).

 

On the defensive side I would promote from within if Schwartz left. Donnie Henderson or Pepper Johnson would probably be the guy. There is something special with this group and the attitude with which they play. I don't want a different philosophy even if someone like Rex hit the market.

[The Big Cat]

I'm fine with continuity if it's working. They changed d coordinators (and a large part of the defensive staff) last year after a good year and improved quite a bit. The offensive coaching is bad and it's really hard to argue otherwise. I think that Marrone stays, Schwartz hopefully stays (but may have some head coaching chances) and Hackett goes.

 

There are lots and lots of talented offensive minds out there now; it's an offensive game. I may get flamed for this but I'd have no issue whatsoever with Chan coming back as the OC. He moved the football with lousy talent. I'd be open to other options as well but think that he'd do well with the group (middle of the league anyways).

 

On the defensive side I would promote from within if Schwartz left. Donnie Henderson or Pepper Johnson would probably be the guy. There is something special with this group and the attitude with which they play. I don't want a different philosophy even if someone like Rex hit the market.

 

I think we all remember Chan with misplaced fondness and then oversell the talent we have on offense to make that point.

 

That said, I wouldn't kick him out of an OC role in Buffalo, that's for sure.

 

But food for thought, here is a side by side, Chan's best year (2011)/This year:

 

PPG:

23.3 (14th)/21.5 (19th)

--keep in mind that our PPG has been pretty steady, whereas the 2011 Bills had a PPG in the last 8 games of 18.75

 

YPP:

5.7/5.0

 

Chan Gailey's offense benefited from coming on the heels of some SERIOUSLY poor units, the likes of which make even this year's look like the Greatest Show on Turf.

 

But we've definitely leveled off since then. As I said, I think the perceived regression is oversold.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

I think we all remember Chan with misplaced fondness and then oversell the talent we have on offense to make that point.

 

That said, I wouldn't kick him out of an OC role in Buffalo, that's for sure.

 

But food for thought, here is a side by side, Chan's best year (2011)/This year:

 

PPG:

23.3 (14th)/21.5 (19th)

--keep in mind that our PPG has been pretty steady, whereas the 2011 Bills had a PPG in the last 8 games of 18.75

 

YPP:

5.7/5.0

 

Chan Gailey's offense benefited from coming on the heels of some SERIOUSLY poor units, the likes of which make even this year's look like the Greatest Show on Turf.

 

But we've definitely leveled off since then. As I said, I think the perceived regression is oversold.

I certainly don't think that we are loaded on the offensive side. We need a guard or 2 and at least a TE. We are still in search of a QB as well. With that being said this offense has more talent than 2011 for sure.

[The Big Cat]

I certainly don't think that we are loaded on the offensive side. We need a guard or 2 and at least a TE. We are still in search of a QB as well. With that being said this offense has more talent than 2011 for sure.

 

Well, Chan's 2011 team and its vaunted offense dropped seven in a row. They started out white hot then regressed BIG TIME. According to many here, the coaches, and only the coaches, are to blame for that.

 

But you're right, they lacked talent, which is what I've been saying up and down this board about every team since 2006.

 

So what happened in 2011? They started out 5-2, teams picked up on our limitations and forced us to do things we couldn't. It's exactly what happened to the 2014 Kyle Orton. There's one consistency here: talent.

Edited December 15, 2014 by The Big Cat

[BmarvB]

I certainly don't think that we are loaded on the offensive side. We need a guard or 2 and at least a TE. We are still in search of a QB as well. With that being said this offense has more talent than 2011 for sure.

 

To an extent, yes the offense is more talented, but like you said, we're missing a quality QB, better guards, and a TE that can stretch the field deep. I have faith Whaley will fix most of it in the off season. Then the question will be how well can Hackett design the offense to get the most out of that talent once he has everything he needs to be successful?

 

2015 will be Marrone & Hackett's make it or break it year.

[NoSaint]

According to many here, the coaches, and only the coaches, are to blame for that.

 

i think at this point, outside a handful of the crazy fringe that you get on the internet with any topic - none of us are arguing that its ONLY the coaches. really, i think you are one of few thats arguing its totally one thing or the other.

[section122]

i think at this point, outside a handful of the crazy fringe that you get on the internet with any topic - none of us are arguing that its ONLY the coaches. really, i think you are one of few thats arguing its totally one thing or the other.

 

I just want to put some stats about other teams and coaches here....

 

I think we all think Andy Reid is a good offensive mind right? He and the Chiefs are averaging 1.1 more ypg and 1.4 more points per game

 

I think we all think that Jim Harbaugh is a good offensive mind right? He and the Niners are averaging 7.8 less ypg and 3.7 less points per game

 

I think we all think Bruce Arians is a good offensive mind right? He and the Cardinals are averaging .3 less ypg and 1.0 less points per game

 

I won't argue that it is entirely the players and clearly with the 22nd ranked offense some improvements could be made but I think that the talent is a bigger determining factor than coaching.

 

Here are a few more items:

 

The top 6 offenses in points for are Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Roethlisberger and Luck led teams with Philly being the outlier.

 

The top 6 offenses in ypg are led by Brady, Rodgers, Luck, Roethlisberger, Manning, and Philly.

 

So of the top 6 offenses in the NFL 5 are doing it with talent and 1 is doing it with coaching.

 

Some more interesting tidbits:

 

Of the top 5 defenses by ypg (Seattle, Detroit, SF, Denver, and Buffalo) only Denver led by Manning is in the top 10 for offensive ypg.

 

Of the top 5 defenses in ppg (Detroit, Seattle, Arizona, Buffalo, and KC) none of them are in the top 10 in offensive ppg.

 

This speaks to just how difficult it is to field 2 top units barring having a stud qb (and sometimes even with one)

[NoSaint]

 

 

I just want to put some stats about other teams and coaches here....

 

I think we all think Andy Reid is a good offensive mind right? He and the Chiefs are averaging 1.1 more ypg and 1.4 more points per game

 

I think we all think that Jim Harbaugh is a good offensive mind right? He and the Niners are averaging 7.8 less ypg and 3.7 less points per game

 

I think we all think Bruce Arians is a good offensive mind right? He and the Cardinals are averaging .3 less ypg and 1.0 less points per game

 

I won't argue that it is entirely the players and clearly with the 22nd ranked offense some improvements could be made but I think that the talent is a bigger determining factor than coaching.

 

Here are a few more items:

 

The top 6 offenses in points for are Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Roethlisberger and Luck led teams with Philly being the outlier.

 

The top 6 offenses in ypg are led by Brady, Rodgers, Luck, Roethlisberger, Manning, and Philly.

 

So of the top 6 offenses in the NFL 5 are doing it with talent and 1 is doing it with coaching.

 

Some more interesting tidbits:

 

Of the top 5 defenses by ypg (Seattle, Detroit, SF, Denver, and Buffalo) only Denver led by Manning is in the top 10 for offensive ypg.

 

Of the top 5 defenses in ppg (Detroit, Seattle, Arizona, Buffalo, and KC) none of them are in the top 10 in offensive ppg.

 

This speaks to just how difficult it is to field 2 top units barring having a stud qb (and sometimes even with one)

 

 

so your argument is that we could add any offensive coordinator out there, and they wouldnt do any better?

 

or is it fair to say that our qb is flawed, but our OC may also be a weak point? If memory serves the gaps used to be wider but we are still a top 5 team in average starting field position too, which is a nice gift from our d and special teams.

 

a team like san fran as a comp is interesting as they are getting more yards per drive, essentially the same points per drive, a better drive success rate (football outsiders number that is percentage of drives with a first down or ending in points), holding the ball longer per drive -- but we have them beat with fewer turnovers per drive and better field position (and more overall drives)

 

while their D is good (above average to top 5 in most of the following), we are top 2 in the league in yards per drive allowed, points per drive allowed, defensive drive success rate, 3rd in turnovers forced per drive

[section122]

so your argument is that we could add any offensive coordinator out there, and they wouldnt do any better?

 

or is it fair to say that our qb is flawed, but our OC may also be a weak point? If memory serves the gaps used to be wider but we are still a top 5 team in average starting field position too, which is a nice gift from our d and special teams.

 

a team like san fran as a comp is interesting as they are getting more yards per drive, essentially the same points per drive, a better drive success rate (football outsiders number that is percentage of drives with a first down or ending in points), holding the ball longer per drive -- but we have them beat with fewer turnovers per drive and better field position (and more overall drives)

 

while their D is good (above average to top 5 in most of the following), we are top 2 in the league in yards per drive allowed, points per drive allowed, defensive drive success rate, 3rd in turnovers forced per drive

 

Well this was in the post you quoted:

 

I won't argue that it is entirely the players and clearly with the 22nd ranked offense some improvements could be made but I think that the talent is a bigger determining factor than coaching.

 

 

My argument is that sometimes people are prisoners of what they see without comparison. Of course the 22nd rated offense could use improvement. My question is where does that improvement need to happen. I listed examples of "great offensive minds" that are hamstrung by lack of talent. I also listed talent that elevates what we think of the coaching (NE Coordinators is a perfect example of this). The point is we don't really know what we have in regards to coaching because the talent is not there. Of the 4 qbs that Hackett has had to work with would you rank any of them above the 22nd best starting qb? It is the rare case (Philly being the only one) that a coach can boost the talent he has to a top unit without much of the talent being top level.

[BmarvB]

"The Bills are legit, and Doug Marrone has done a fantastic job this year. Imagine if they had a quarterback ..."

- Adam Schein NFL Media columnist.

[rumblefish]

Why is it that people don't remember that Marv, didn't get to the top of the mountain right away, look at all that has been on this teams plate over the last two seasons, old adage applies "no pain, no gain", can Marone do better, that's the hope,

[paupmvp1995]

Adam Schein sums it up pretty well. We NEED an NFL QB on our roster. Right now, I am not sure we have one. Orton looked horrible this week. And seems to have lost any feel for giving our receivers even a chance at catching the deep ball. The last throw to Sammy wasn't even close. I honestly think that we would be a better offense at this point if we brought EJ in next week at Oakland. At least he can run. Orton missed Fred on those two screens early in the game. And than Woods over the middle late when noone was around him. My 11 yr old can make that throw everytime. Orton stinks, and plays w absolutely no passion. Whaley and Marrone's job in the offseason is to find two guys who can throw to compete for the starting job. Draft someone like Bryce Petty, and bring in a veteran. Heck, I think Charlie Whitehurst was throwing the ball better for Tennessee yesterday than Orton has in the past month.

 

We need to improve the O line also. What a regression for Cordy Glenn. He plays w zero passion and looks completely disinterested. Put Seantrel at LT and bring in another tackle or maybe Kuanjuo will be ready at rt tackle. And bring in two guards. We have an owner w bucks now. Upgrade the O line, (Pears and Urbik syanora. And take Cordy w you) bring in a QB who is at least average to above. And this team will be in the mix for a championship next year.

 

And as an aside. Noone brings in guys who contribute at the bottom of the roster like Whaley. How sweet have Maquise Gray, Bacari Rambo and Marcus Thigpen looked? Wow!! way to go DW...

[Kirby Jackson]

This is just getting to be a weird circular argument I guess. It really comes down to whether or not you believe the players on offense are put in advantageous positions vs. opposing defenses? That is the coordinator's job. We know that we need more talent (everyone does) but that is irrelevant to this conversation. If you believe that Hackett gives his team the schematic and game planning advantages that Schwartz does than you believe that he's the guy. Many of us have cited reasons why we don't believe that to be the case (personnel groupings, predictability, etc...). This in no way is any of us saying that we don't want better players. The coaches' job is to create advantages & I do not believe that he does that well at all.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Kirby Jackson

[VanCity]

 

 

 

clearly, you just dont see lee smiths high upside. hes a dynamic player. i was inspired when i saw him beating his chest after a play. he didnt even have to block anyone, as the defender was probably scared to engage him. on another play, i saw him spring a runner while behind the runner. #thelegendofleesmith

Beauty post. Good for a solid chuckle.

[The Big Cat]

This is just getting to be a weird circular argument I guess. It really comes down to whether or not you believe the players on offense are put in advantageous positions vs. opposing defenses? That is the coordinator's job. We know that we need more talent (everyone does) but that is irrelevant to this conversation. If you believe that Hackett gives his team the schematic and game planning advantages that Schwartz does than you believe that he's the guy. Many of us have cited reasons why we don't believe that to be the case (personnel groupings, predictability, etc...). This in no way is any of us saying that we don't want better players. The coaches' job is to create advantages & I do not believe that he does that well at all.

 

I agree that we're--at best--only making minimal progress toward the center as far as debating go.

 

So let's look forward, which is less of a gamble in 2015: continuity, or something new?

[BmarvB]

He is back for 2015 and unless someone hires Jim Schwartz the staff will remain the same. Marrone did a nice job of hiring Schwartz, but also the other Defensive assistants as a result of the Pettine departure.

We need an upgrade at two positions Guard and QB. That alone will make a huge difference. There are no great options at QB unless we draft a lesser commodity who turns out to be GOLD. Not likely. So we must improve our offensive line - PERIOD!!! Now the next question - is it Kyle, EJ or someone else?

 

I believe Kyle gives us no better chance of winning than EJ - I would rather see EJ in there because of his athletic ability - Kyle can not get out of his own way. I am not sure this coaching staff sees it that way - but we question accuracy with both EJ and Kyle. Why not go with the better athlete next year? Give them the full offseason and training camp - then equal reps with equal talent and see who can take us to the next level. We can talk about QB free agents all we want but tell me who is any better than what we currently have and at an affordable price? I just do not see anyone out there. Let go Bills - and as always wait til Next Year.

I would also suggest bringing in another veteran or two to compete as well, either by free agency or by trade. May the best man win the starting QB job (hopefully an improved EJ). All they have to do is provide an upgrade over what we have now while EJ continues to develop. I'd give EJ one more year to show us something, or draft another QB in 2016.

Edited December 15, 2014 by BmarvB

[Augie]

I like Marrone and what he's done for the most part. They play a physical style which I love. We have a few holes that need to be filled, but Hackett is not getting the most out of what he's got to work with. It's more than just play calling, it also seems to be philosophy. CJ up the middle on first and second does not play to his strengths. I'd like to see Hackett replaced, but what concerns me the most is he's really just an extension of Maronne, who I like. So, I'm a bit confused....

[NoSaint]

 

 

I agree that we're--at best--only making minimal progress toward the center as far as debating go.

 

So let's look forward, which is less of a gamble in 2015: continuity, or something new?

 

depends on the plan for each. id like something new, but not without assurances before pulling the trigger. i dont want to fire hackett for any warm body possible, but i do think we can upgrade. if those upgrades dont shake loose, or have interest than lets stick with what weve got. i dont think we fire him just for the sake of firing though.

[section122]

This is just getting to be a weird circular argument I guess. It really comes down to whether or not you believe the players on offense are put in advantageous positions vs. opposing defenses? That is the coordinator's job. We know that we need more talent (everyone does) but that is irrelevant to this conversation. If you believe that Hackett gives his team the schematic and game planning advantages that Schwartz does than you believe that he's the guy. Many of us have cited reasons why we don't believe that to be the case (personnel groupings, predictability, etc...). This in no way is any of us saying that we don't want better players. The coaches' job is to create advantages & I do not believe that he does that well at all.

 

Don't the all 22s regularly show plays left on the field by the qb? I think that they are put in advantageous situations. I think that a talent increase will help show that.

 

If you want to go off on a Lee Smith tangent or the one 3rd and 1 play that got stuffed that is fine. I just think an improved talent level will magically make the coaches look a lot better than they do now. I want Hackett back next year not for just for continuity's sake but because I have been impressed with what he has been able to squeeze out of the talent we have. I really think the talent level on the offensive side is that poor. Look at this list:

 

Chandler - cut ww pickup, left to dangle on the market and came back bc there were no other offers

 

Pears/Urbik - ww pickups cut from their original teams

 

Boobie/Bryce - nice players but inactive/only active on st's on their last team

 

Freddie - heart and soul slow as molasses

 

Orton/EJ/Tuel/Thad - mediocre/project/practice squad fodder/3rd stringer

 

WR group - very talented also very young. Most receivers hit their stride in their 3rd year.

 

Next year just with the people currently on the roster we could see some leaps. EJ could progress after learning, Orton could improve with time in the system, Cryil/Kuandjio could improve as big leaps are made between year 1 and 2. I would imagine some pieces will be added through fa and the draft as well. I would like to see what Hackett can do with them. As I pointed out upthread there are several "good offensive minds" that are hamstrung by mediocre/subpar talent. Maybe Hackett falls in that group maybe he doesn't I just don't think he has been given the fair shot yet to see.

 

I asked earlier and will ask again. Of the grouping Orton/EJ/Thad/Tuel which of those would put in the top 22 of qbs playing. I picked the #22 because that is the current offensive rank and I think I showed pretty convincingly that qb talent correlates pretty well with offensive output.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

Don't the all 22s regularly show plays left on the field by the qb? I think that they are put in advantageous situations. I think that a talent increase will help show that.

 

If you want to go off on a Lee Smith tangent or the one 3rd and 1 play that got stuffed that is fine. I just think an improved talent level will magically make the coaches look a lot better than they do now. I want Hackett back next year not for just for continuity's sake but because I have been impressed with what he has been able to squeeze out of the talent we have. I really think the talent level on the offensive side is that poor. Look at this list:

 

Chandler - cut ww pickup, left to dangle on the market and came back bc there were no other offers

 

Pears/Urbik - ww pickups cut from their original teams

 

Boobie/Bryce - nice players but inactive/only active on st's on their last team

 

Freddie - heart and soul slow as molasses

 

Orton/EJ/Tuel/Thad - mediocre/project/practice squad fodder/3rd stringer

 

WR group - very talented also very young. Most receivers hit their stride in their 3rd year.

 

Next year just with the people currently on the roster we could see some leaps. EJ could progress after learning, Orton could improve with time in the system, Cryil/Kuandjio could improve as big leaps are made between year 1 and 2. I would imagine some pieces will be added through fa and the draft as well. I would like to see what Hackett can do with them. As I pointed out upthread there are several "good offensive minds" that are hamstrung by mediocre/subpar talent. Maybe Hackett falls in that group maybe he doesn't I just don't think he has been given the fair shot yet to see.

 

I asked earlier and will ask again. Of the grouping Orton/EJ/Thad/Tuel which of those would put in the top 22 of qbs playing. I picked the #22 because that is the current offensive rank and I think I showed pretty convincingly that qb talent correlates pretty well with offensive output.

Fair enough and that is the kind of response that I was looking for.

 

Orton to me is better than the QBs of: Jets, Jags, Browns, Texans, Titans, Bucs, Cardinals (with Palmer out the year), Rams, Redskins (can't believe that but its true), and as good as Minnesota, Oakland, Philly and Chicago. That leaves him in that area. If you want to take it a step further and factor in the contract I'd rather be in our situation than SF, Cincy and Baltimore as well.

 

While I don't think that he is great there are a lot of teams in as bad or worse shape.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Kirby Jackson

[section122]

Fair enough and that is the kind of response that I was looking for.

 

Orton to me is better than the QBs of: Jets, Jags, Browns, Texans, Titans, Bucs, Cardinals (with Palmer out the year), Rams, Redskins (can't believe that but its true), and as good as Minnesota, Oakland, Philly and Chicago. That leaves him in that area. If you want to take it a step further and factor in the contract I'd rather be in our situation than SF, Cincy and Baltimore as well.

 

While I don't think that he is great there are a lot of teams in as bad or worse shape.

 

So you've got him better than 9 starters and on par with 4 more putting him in the 19-23 range which I am on board with. Which is why I think we fall in the spot we do. I don't mean to go through these threads and make it sound like Nate is the best oc ever. I just don't think he is the worst and I'd like to see him get a real opportunity. I'm a big believer of this coaching staff for no other reason than this is the hardest playing Bills team I have seen in a long time. If Marrone wants Hackett I'm on board with that. I think if Hackett is let go one of the coaches on staff (Hostler perhaps) would be the guy and that just doesn't make sense to me.

[JohnC]

Fair enough and that is the kind of response that I was looking for.

 

Orton to me is better than the QBs of: Jets, Jags, Browns, Texans, Titans, Bucs, Cardinals (with Palmer out the year), Rams, Redskins (can't believe that but its true), and as good as Minnesota, Oakland, Philly and Chicago. That leaves him in that area. If you want to take it a step further and factor in the contract I'd rather be in our situation than SF, Cincy and Baltimore as well.

 

While I don't think that he is great there are a lot of teams in as bad or worse shape.

 

I don't know how you can conclude that Orton is an adequate qb after watching week after week this immobile and pedestrian qb getting worse. After watching his performances spiraling downwards I consider him to be the worst starting qb in the league. Did you watch yesterday's game? I would without hesitation prefer having Bortles, Bridgewater or Carr starting for me this season than having our current ineffectual starting qb. With a rookie qb you get inconsistent play but at least you get a qb who has an upward trajectory.

 

I am a Whaley fan. Overall he has done a good job and brought credibility to a franchise that has lacked it. But if Orton is brought back as a starter then Whaley should be summarily dismissed for malfeasance. Replacing Orton with a mediocre qb would be a dramatic upgrade. Orton is on the downside of his very indistingushed career. As bad as he has played he still has the potential to get worse. His performance is beyond being bad---it is dispiriting.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

So you've got him better than 9 starters and on par with 4 more putting him in the 19-23 range which I am on board with. Which is why I think we fall in the spot we do. I don't mean to go through these threads and make it sound like Nate is the best oc ever. I just don't think he is the worst and I'd like to see him get a real opportunity. I'm a big believer of this coaching staff for no other reason than this is the hardest playing Bills team I have seen in a long time. If Marrone wants Hackett I'm on board with that. I think if Hackett is let go one of the coaches on staff (Hostler perhaps) would be the guy and that just doesn't make sense to me.

Fair enough and for the most part I like the coaching staff. I think that this team plays really hard. They hit as hard as any team that I can remember. I'm not saying that they would be an elite offense with the talent that they have but I don't like the general plan on that side of the football.

 

One other note that seems to get overlooked is that Whaley did a nice job this offseason adding not only players that for but personalities as well. Spikes and Dixon specifically and from winning programs and have added a physical edge. Even if they are part time players they hold other players to that standard.

 

 

 

I don't know how you can conclude that Orton is an adequate qb after watching week after week this immobile and pedestrian qb getting worse. After watching his performances spiraling downwards I consider him to be the worst starting qb in the league. Did you watch yesterday's game? I would without hesitation prefer having Bortles, Bridgewater or Carr starting for me this season than having our current ineffectual starting qb. With a rookie qb you get inconsistent play but at least you get a qb who has an upward trajectory.

 

I am a Whaley fan. Overall he has done a good job and brought credibility to a franchise that has lacked it. But if Orton is brought back as a starter then Whaley should be summarily dismissed for malfeasance. Replacing Orton with a mediocre qb would be a dramatic upgrade. Orton is on the downside of his very indistingushed career. As bad as he has played he still has the potential to get worse. His performance is beyond being bad---it is dispiriting.

He has been bad lately, no doubt but the question was posed as to which teams we have better QB play than. I'd certainly rather have some of those young guys but it's tough to argue that Bortles has been better than Orton this year. I gave my list feel free to edit it in any way that you want.

[JohnC]

Fair enough and for the most part I like the coaching staff. I think that this team plays really hard. They hit as hard as any team that I can remember. I'm not saying that they would be an elite offense with the talent that they have but I don't like the general plan on that side of the football.

 

One other note that seems to get overlooked is that Whaley did a nice job this offseason adding not only players that for but personalities as well. Spikes and Dixon specifically and from winning programs and have added a physical edge. Even if they are part time players they hold other players to that standard.

 

He has been bad lately, no doubt but the question was posed as to which teams we have better QB play than. I'd certainly rather have some of those young guys but it's tough to argue that Bortles has been better than Orton this year. I gave my list feel free to edit it in any way that you want.

 

I'll take a raw rookie qb in Bortles over Orton this year and feel confident that the youngster will out play Orton with our team's roster. Everyone can agree that his performances have deteriorated. Even if you consider this as a late season slump what upside does he actually have. Is his mobility going to improve with age? Is his weak arm strength and inaccuracy going to improve next year as more time passes?

 

The shame of this season is if the Bills would have had below average qbing instead of grossly inept qbing this team would probably be in the playoffs and capable of knocking off a team or two. I know it is not going to happen this year but I would rather have the unproven EJ play in place of Orton rather than watch the stunningly bad level of play from the vagabound veteran qb. At least the prospect qb has a chance of getting better with the added experience while the current starting qb is what he is and getting worse.

[section122]

 

One other note that seems to get overlooked is that Whaley did a nice job this offseason adding not only players that for but personalities as well. Spikes and Dixon specifically and from winning programs and have added a physical edge. Even if they are part time players they hold other players to that standard.

 

 

Spikes is not getting his credit imo. His fire and borderline recklessness has been the true spark to me on that defense. He brought a serious attitude. I know he has limitations as a player but I hope he comes back next year. Bradham, Brown, Kiko, and Spikes would be fantastic depth and skill at the lb position.

[bigK14094]

I doubt he will coach on a one year contract. He becomes a lame duck. He will either be extended or he will go. I suspect he will be extended, and the Pegulas will pay him his contract if they need to fire him after next year. I don't think they will care about dead coach money as much as RW did.

I think Marrone got 4 years out of the box....and he will not be a lame duck next season, should he last that long.

[thewildrabbit]

I do. As an example from yesterday my brother was counting Lee Smith's snaps and what happened when he was out there. His 1st 30 snaps were like 28 runs and 2 passes (both to him). To take it a step further why would you have an offense where Lee Smith is playing 30+ snaps? Last week in the 4th quarter they moved the football when Hackett took the lousy TEs off the field and spread it.

 

People harp on the play calling but the whole plan is just broken. I know what they are going to do before the ball is snapped about 70% of the time and I know nothing. Imagine how predictable it is to teams that watched film all week?

and that just by seeing who is on the field, and what formation the Bills are in...

 

I'd have to say that most of the Bills fans out there just don't get the nuances of what a top NFC OC could do vs what we are currently seeing on the field. Most all of them just want to point at the QB, and always will, as blaming the QB is always the easiest solution. Hackett does indeed need to go, and the Bills need to hire an OC with as much knowledge about the offense as Schwartz has on the defense. I think the results here would be rather spectacular in terms of scoring TD's.

 

 

Anyway, I've changed my stance on Marrone after learning that he wanted Urbik out of there, and the FO told him he is a fine OG. I'm thinking he is being overruled on the players he wants, and doesn't want. So, not much he can do, but make do with what players he has on offense. Now all I can do is hope that the Pegula's hire that senior adviser. While Whaley has done a brilliant job in every other aspect of the team, I just don't get the bad O line acquisitions, and the desire to retain some sub par players.

 

Lastly, we might have to endure another year of this regime intact, along with the same players. I just don't get how these changes to the OC & line weren't thought out, and proper choices made last off season.

[BuffOrange]

The guy is getting a ton of mileage out of Dave Wandsteadt sucking.

[thewildrabbit]

To the less stubborn, and more open minded fans. Think about what Aaron Rodgers would look like with a lousy offensive coaching staff, behind a bad O line, with a WR corps that has a 2nd year player as the most experienced man.

 

Then think about how Aaron Rodgers looked like yesterday with a great coaching staff, great receiver corps, and decent line playing against a strong defensive unit when things don't go your way. Lets face some facts here, the Bills offense has played against better defenses this season. The Lions #1, Denver #4, Jets, Miami, KC, SD all have top ten defenses. Kyle Orton has never looked as bad as Rodgers did yesterday, and in fact did enough with the offense to seal the win, as 4 FG's helped get that win.

 

 

Given the QB's current surrounding cast I'm not ready to indict the QB, and throw him in the trash.

[T master]

Say what you want about Marrone, but the Bills are much better now (except at QB) than they were before he came here. That alone is enough for him to rightfully return next season and improve the offensive production. A better QB and upgraded O-Line will make this team a championship contender. For a second year head coach he's earned that much no matter what his critics think.

 

As for Hackett, let's be fair about it. Look at the QB's he's had to work with. Orton's the best of the bunch? Really?? Seriously??? Let's see what he can do with an upgrade at that position.

 

It's just to bad he doesn't know how to utilize the talent he has on hand to the best of it's ability !!

[NoSaint]

To the less stubborn, and more open minded fans. Think about what Aaron Rodgers would look like with a lousy offensive coaching staff, behind a bad O line, with a WR corps that has a 2nd year player as the most experienced man.

 

Then think about how Aaron Rodgers looked like yesterday with a great coaching staff, great receiver corps, and decent line playing against a strong defensive unit when things don't go your way. Lets face some facts here, the Bills offense has played against better defenses this season. The Lions #1, Denver #4, Jets, Miami, KC, SD all have top ten defenses. Kyle Orton has never looked as bad as Rodgers did yesterday, and in fact did enough with the offense to seal the win, as 4 FG's helped get that win.

 

 

Given the QB's current surrounding cast I'm not ready to indict the QB, and throw him in the trash.

 

are we chalking 4 fgs as the offense contributing? our offense is lucky if we get 1 td against non-jet teams this year. thats bad.

[paupmvp1995]

I don't know how you can conclude that Orton is an adequate qb after watching week after week this immobile and pedestrian qb getting worse. After watching his performances spiraling downwards I consider him to be the worst starting qb in the league. Did you watch yesterday's game? I would without hesitation prefer having Bortles, Bridgewater or Carr starting for me this season than having our current ineffectual starting qb. With a rookie qb you get inconsistent play but at least you get a qb who has an upward trajectory.

 

I am a Whaley fan. Overall he has done a good job and brought credibility to a franchise that has lacked it. But if Orton is brought back as a starter then Whaley should be summarily dismissed for malfeasance. Replacing Orton with a mediocre qb would be a dramatic upgrade. Orton is on the downside of his very indistingushed career. As bad as he has played he still has the potential to get worse. His performance is beyond being bad---it is dispiriting.

I completely agree. Besides the Jets games, and the last drive against Minnesota, Orton has been terrible. He has not completed one deep pass all season. (I don't think he has even given our receivers a chance on any of his deep throws) He has ZERO mobility, and plays w no inspiration. I hope the Bills part ways w him when the season is over. Management would have to be absolutely brain dead to not see what all us fans have seen from Orton. I believe there will be major changes at the QB position for next season. If Sanchez is available, that would be a start. An avg to above avg QB w Woods Sammy and 7/11 to throw to, and adding a big red zone threat, and this team will be so sweet on both sides of the ball.

[Malazan]

If Sanchez is available, that would be a start.

 

Have you seen him play the last couple weeks? Outside of the average game he had and got a lot of press for when he replaced Foles...he hasn't been that good...behind a good offensive line.

[thewildrabbit]

are we chalking 4 fgs as the offense contributing? our offense is lucky if we get 1 td against non-jet teams this year. thats bad.

Sometimes FG's are all you need to win, just ask Chiefs last year at RWS.

 

Hey man, I agree that the Bills offense simply isn't very good. That Kyle Orton has a lot to do with that. I've never touted him as being a top QB, but he is a decent game manager along the lines of an Alex Smith. Give him a decent line, and run game and I'd think we would be seeing a different player.

 

 

 

I look at the NFL game as a chess match between master players (OC vs DC) who can read moves ahead by watching previous game film and are prepared in advance for anything. Jim Schwartz having been the HC in Detroit was there long enough to know that Packers offense very well, and he knows Aaron Rodgers tendency's. Hence a great defensive game masterminded by a top DC that limited the supposed MVP to his worst game ever! OTOH, Now some chess players are limited in their thinking and simply can't see ahead or even whats going on during a game.

 

Let me just add WR Mike Williams after the Texans game where he had 2 rec for 84 yards, and caught a TD pass. He remarked after the game "we adjusted a little too late" He went on to say that they expected the Texans to be in a certain defensive scheme, and they came out something different all game. Williams went on to remark that entire event, that when you prepare for one thing and they are playing another. "things tend to not work". The Bills didn't shift their offensive scheme until late into the 3rd quarter is a big reason as to why EJ looked so lost in that game.

 

Bills fans stating that Nathaniel Hackett is in over his head is not an overstatement. The Bills need a surgeon with a scalpel, and instead have a simpleton with a dull chisel

[Wesdawg]

Sometimes FG's are all you need to win, just ask Chiefs last year at RWS.

 

Hey man, I agree that the Bills offense simply isn't very good. That Kyle Orton has a lot to do with that. I've never touted him as being a top QB, but he is a decent game manager along the lines of an Alex Smith. Give him a decent line, and run game and I'd think we would be seeing a different player.

 

 

 

I look at the NFL game as a chess match between master players (OC vs DC) who can read moves ahead by watching previous game film and are prepared in advance for anything. Jim Schwartz having been the HC in Detroit was there long enough to know that Packers offense very well, and he knows Aaron Rodgers tendency's. Hence a great defensive game masterminded by a top DC that limited the supposed MVP to his worst game ever! OTOH, Now some chess players are limited in their thinking and simply can't see ahead or even whats going on during a game.

 

Let me just add WR Mike Williams after the Texans game where he had 2 rec for 84 yards, and caught a TD pass. He remarked after the game "we adjusted a little too late" He went on to say that they expected the Texans to be in a certain defensive scheme, and they came out something different all game. Williams went on to remark that entire event, that when you prepare for one thing and they are playing another. "things tend to not work". The Bills didn't shift their offensive scheme until late into the 3rd quarter is a big reason as to why EJ looked so lost in that game.

 

Bills fans stating that Nathaniel Hackett is in over his head is not an overstatement. The Bills need a surgeon with a scalpel, and instead have a simpleton with a dull chisel

Well said, man. Schwartz deserves a lot of credit for making those adjustments. We need an OC who can do those same things on offense on a week-to-week, or even quarter-to-quarter basis. The best minds in the game know how to adjust on the fly.

[BUNCH OF MULARKEY]

 

The offense is Marrone's. Everyone bashes Hackett but I would put just as much (if not more) blame on Marrone. As far as physicality, that's on defense and credit would go to Schwartz and Pepper Johnson.

It would be interesting if there is a rift between Marrone and Whalley to see Marrone/Hackett gone. Schwartz HC, Pepper DC and bring in a OC. We might get the best of both worlds. Continuity on D and a competent offense.

Logical, but doesn't explain Schwartz failures as HC Detroit.

Maybe it helps Schwarts having Marrone to talk to the press, take the heat and let just him coach D.

In a bizzare way they need St. Doug to be the whooping boy. And he's gettin good at handling it.

[3rdand12]

The players sticking up for Marrone yesterday changed my opinion of him. That was the first time I've ever heard a groundswell of support from his players, which, coupled with the improved record, changes my view - I think he should get another season.

 

That said, it's a shared Marrone/Whaley issue that they had to scrap their entire plan for the offense this year because of sub-par QB and guard talent. It's totally unacceptable and if it doesn't get fixed this offseason, they should both be shown the door.

This is a fairly major statement coming from you Coach ! Getting soft ?

lol

 

I believe that both are a problem. It is much, much, much easier to find someone that can design an offense to your talent than it is to find a franchise QB. I'm not saying that I wouldn't like to see both upgraded. I would love to upgrade at QB.

In all seriousness i am not sure what the Bills do well on Offense. what strengths they actually have. I really dont know

 

but if we are going to absolutely telegraph our play call as a run - we may as well get our best blocker on the field, and i dont think thats lee smith either.

and who might that fellow be ?

[thewildrabbit]

Logical, but doesn't explain Schwartz failures as HC Detroit.

Maybe it helps Schwarts having Marrone to talk to the press, take the heat and let just him coach D.

In a bizzare way they need St. Doug to be the whooping boy. And he's gettin good at handling it.

Not every assistant coach becomes a successful NFL head coach in their first attempt. Bill Belichick come to mind as he took the Browns to the playoffs, and next year was fired. His defense was #1 that year, and slid to 24th the next.

 

In 1994 Pete Carroll was the 6-10 NY Jets HC, and then in 1997 the Patriots HC after taking over from Bill Parcells 10-6, 9-7, 8-8. He didn't become a good NFL HC until his 3rd attempt

 

Jim Caldwell took over the Colts in 2009 from Tony Dungy, and went 14-2 and to a SB. To 10-6 in 2010. To 2-14 in 2011. Now he has another chance this year with the Lions, and his team (10-6) is fielding one of the best defenses in the NFL. NFN, but IMO, it was Schwartz that built that #1 defense.

 

All I seem to recall is that every year that Lions QB Matthew Stafford was either injured or fell on his face at the end of every season. Who knows why he failed in Detroit, all I do know is that Schwartz will get another shot at HC, and soon.