Buffaloed in Pa Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Yeah ... 5 of 6 on throws over 15 yds and a TD. The best this year. But I wanna new coach and Qb. Cry baby Cry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 A handful of games will never change my perception of Orton. His accuracy, from what I can see, leans more on his pure arm strength. If he plays well, we win. Very simply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 A handful of games will never change my perception of Orton. His accuracy, from what I can see, leans more on his pure arm strength. If he plays well, we win. Very simply. What QB can't you say that about. If he plays well we win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bookie Man Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 He had IMO his best game as a Bill. 24-32 and had 3 or 4 drops. Granted, Woods made some sweet grabs. But I mean c'mon he ran for a 1st down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 KO isn't the reason we've been losing games, but he's also not good enough to carry a bad OL, OC, and hurt RB corps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloFan68 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 The O-line was getting him more time than usual last night plus Orton did a really good job of standing tall & delivering the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 There's a few actually especially in recent years. Several times have we seen Brady, Peyton, Brees, Rodgers, Rivers, Eli, Big Ben et cetera, et cetera, all play bad games and still come away with a win. In the games we've won this season Orton has had to play well, not great, throughout the course of four quarters to just keep us in the game. The other percentile of QB's play well and it's a win. Comfortably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 KO vs. the Jets = Peyton Manning. KO vs. the rest of the league = Kyle Orton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Front Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 On the season, Orton has 12 TD's to 3 INTs. His accuracy isn't the problem. He tosses the ball where the receivers can make plays on it. Poor offensive scheming and a porous offensive line have prevented the offense from scoring points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobobonators Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I'd say holding on to the god damned ball in our red zone is more of a problem than Orton's accuracy. When Dixon fumbled it I almost threw the remote at the TV - thankfully it was overturned. *Not overturned - down by contact I meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 On the season, Orton has 12 TD's to 3 INTs. His accuracy isn't the problem. He tosses the ball where the receivers can make plays on it. Poor offensive scheming and a porous offensive line have prevented the offense from scoring points. Actually, the problem is in the 5 other games besides the Jets, he has 6 tds and 4 turnovers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 KO vs. the Jets = Peyton Manning. KO vs. the rest of the league = Kyle Orton I agree with you here...but do you honestly think EJ would have looked like Peyton Manning last night? I doubt it. The game probably would have been a lot closer. With this excellent defense to complement his play, Orton is a good enough passer to win you just about any game assuming he is given a clean pocket. He will struggle against teams with a better pass rush. Next week might be one of those weeks for example. We shall see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 He didn't play well against the Chiefs and Miami. I guess my main thing with Orton is where exactly are you going with him as your starting QB? .500, which is where we were at with EJ. That's why I hated the move. It's one thing if Orton was 5-2 or something. I hope Orton goes 4-1 down the stretch. But after 9 years, the guy is what he is. It's foolish to expect anything different. I agree with you here...but do you honestly think EJ would have looked like Peyton Manning last night? I doubt it. The game probably would have been a lot closer. With this excellent defense to complement his play, Orton is a good enough passer to win you just about any game assuming he is given a clean pocket. He will struggle against teams with a better pass rush. Next week might be one of those weeks for example. We shall see. EJ's last start against the Jets: 20-28, 71%, 245 yards, 2 tds, 0 ints, 121.9 qb rating (still not a great stat), and we won 37-14. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/ManuEJ00/gamelog/2013/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 (edited) KO vs. the Jets = Peyton Manning. KO vs. the rest of the league = Kyle Orton /thread. Congrats OP, let's forget about the last few games this one was more important. Or something. Let's finish strong, big bucks and no more whammys. Edited November 25, 2014 by Ryan L Billz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 (edited) Orton played "fine" yesterday against a horrible secondary. But honestly, I didn't see him hit a single WR in stride the entire game. He missed wide open reads throughout the game (including two plays where Sammy was running virtually uncovered, one down the sideline and one over the middle). It looked like he stayed in the pocket a bit longer yesterday and was willing to take a hit or two, which was a refreshing change from the prior two games. He also looks to be in better shape (footspeed etc.) than he did when he started his run. IMO the best things about Orton is that he knows where to go with the ball on most plays, and he is very good at pre-snap reads - he checked into and out of the right plays for most of the night. He also is willing to throw it up there and let his WRs make plays. But he's not "the solution." Edited November 25, 2014 by Coach Tuesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I was for the move because EJ looked lost and was down right awful against the Texans and Chargers nor do I ever think EJ will develop into anything more then a marginal QB. Look at the teams that are either in control for the division or wild card. They all have top QB's. And as bad as he was, we scored 3 tds in those 2 games. In the Chiefs and Fins games with our season on the line, we scored 1. EJ is in his 2nd year. Orton is in his 9th. IF he makes the playoffs, great move and I'll gladly post how stupid I was for doubting him. But I really haven't seen enough of an upgrade to justify it. JMO. Orton played "fine" yesterday against a horrible secondary. But honestly, I didn't see him hit a single WR in stride the entire game. He missed wide open reads throughout the game (including two plays where Sammy was running virtually uncovered, one down the sideline and one over the middle). It looked like he stayed in the pocket a bit longer yesterday and was willing to take a hit or two, which was a refreshing change from the prior two games. He also looks to be in better shape (footspeed etc.) than he did when he started his run. IMO the best thing about Orton is that he knows where to go with the ball on most plays, and he is very good at pre-snap reads - he checked into and out of the right plays for most of the night. But he's not "the solution." Agreed and that's the thing EJ is worse at. I guess you can learn by watching but I always thought playing and learning from mistakes was the best way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 EJ's last start against the Jets: 20-28, 71%, 245 yards, 2 tds, 0 ints, 121.9 qb rating (still not a great stat), and we won 37-14. http://www.pro-footb...0/gamelog/2013/ Fair enough. I just wouldn't feel confident going into any game with EJ at QB. I never have ever felt really confident with him in there going into a game. With Orton, at least there is confidence knowing that if he has a clean pocket you will probably get good quarterback play. Orton is more likely to throw deep for a big play. He is just more fun to watch. Better audibles. More accurate. Marrone made a great decision when he chose to go with Orton over EJ. Otherwise, my intuition tells me the Bills would already be definitively out of the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Actually, the problem is in the 5 other games besides the Jets, he has 6 tds and 4 turnovers. True, we should only count QB stats against good teams. That's what the rest of the league is judged on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 And as bad as he was, we scored 3 tds in those 2 games. In the Chiefs and Fins games with our season on the line, we scored 1. EJ is in his 2nd year. Orton is in his 9th. IF he makes the playoffs, great move and I'll gladly post how stupid I was for doubting him. But I really haven't seen enough of an upgrade to justify it. JMO. Agreed and that's the thing EJ is worse at. I guess you can learn by watching but I always thought playing and learning from mistakes was the best way. EJ doesn't even look at the defenders pre-snap. It's maddening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 True, we should only count QB stats against good teams. That's what the rest of the league is judged on. Don't people do that with Spiller's long runs? And you don't think it is important to put stats in context? That's why QB rating is a flawed stat. Orton owns the Jets. Not a doubt in my mind. But what about the games against Detroit, Vikes, Fins, or Chiefs where were struggled to score 1 or 2 tds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenboy81 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Orton looks great against high school teams.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 No one circles the wagons like EJs massage therapists here at TSW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Don't people do that with Spiller's long runs? And you don't think it is important to put stats in context? That's why QB rating is a flawed stat. Orton owns the Jets. Not a doubt in my mind. But what about the games against Detroit, Vikes, Fins, or Chiefs where were struggled to score 1 or 2 tds? All very strong defenses? Sounds like he's about average for a starting QB in the NFL. Good against bad defenses, struggles against good defenses. Orton isn't going to be a guy who can carry an offense with hurt RBs, a bad OL, and a bad OC. But he's not nearly as bad as many make him out to be. He's about average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Fair enough. I just wouldn't feel confident going into any game with EJ at QB. I never have ever felt really confident with him in there going into a game. With Orton, at least there is confidence knowing that if he has a clean pocket you will probably get good quarterback play. Orton is more likely to throw deep for a big play. He is just more fun to watch. Better audibles. More accurate. Marrone made a great decision when he chose to go with Orton over EJ. Otherwise, my intuition tells me the Bills would already be definitively out of the playoffs. Fair enough. I obviously disagree. I don't think Orton is anymore fun to watch than Kelly Holcomb. At least with EJ, you didn't know what he could be. I know what Orton's ceiling is. .500 and average. EJ's could be worse, but it could be much better too. He was .500 after 4 games. Agree to disagree and hopefully Orton takes us to the playoffs. Otherwise, it's a waste of a year. All very strong defenses? Sounds like he's about average for a starting QB in the NFL. Good against bad defenses, struggles against good defenses. Orton isn't going to be a guy who can carry an offense with hurt RBs, a bad OL, and a bad OC. But he's not nearly as bad as many make him out to be. He's about average. Agree to disagree. I thought he was supposed to be a major upgrade since we stunted the develop of our young 1st round QB. IMO, I haven't seen it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Fair enough. I obviously disagree. I don't think Orton is anymore fun to watch than Kelly Holcomb. At least with EJ, you didn't know what he could be. I know what Orton's ceiling is. .500 and average. EJ's could be worse, but it could be much better too. He was .500 after 4 games. Agree to disagree and hopefully Orton takes us to the playoffs. Otherwise, it's a waste of a year. Agree to disagree. I thought he was supposed to be a major upgrade since we stunted the develop of our young 1st round QB. IMO, I haven't seen it. Average is an upgrade over what EJ was producing this year, imo. That's not to say EJ can't develop into something better, but this year he wasn't showing it, and we needed to make a change to a proven product. KO is good enough to get this team to the playoffs if the OL holds up, and our play calling improves. Neither of which are likely, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Grundy Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Some of where he went with the ball was questionable, but who's to say they would've caught the pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 There's a few actually especially in recent years. Several times have we seen Brady, Peyton, Brees, Rodgers, Rivers, Eli, Big Ben et cetera, et cetera, all play bad games and still come away with a win. In the games we've won this season Orton has had to play well, not great, throughout the course of four quarters to just keep us in the game. The other percentile of QB's play well and it's a win. Comfortably. I think our lust for a "franchise QB" has clouded our perception of reality a tad. Yes, these QBs have overcome to win tough games but it's not like they always win. When the team around you stinks, more likely you are going to lose. Is Orton in the same conversation as these QBs? Of course not. But a decent line makes mediocre QBs play like studs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I think our lust for a "franchise QB" has clouded our perception of reality a tad. Yes, these QBs have overcome to win tough games but it's not like they always win. When the team around you stinks, more likely you are going to lose. Is Orton in the same conversation as these QBs? Of course not. But a decent line makes mediocre QBs play like studs. Our oline has improved a lot since Urbik got inserted (great move sitting him for so long!). We need to stop using that as excuse. Orton was a major reason for the losses in KC and Miami. He wasn't average in those games. He was bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starrymessenger Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Orton's accuracy was hardly pinpoint last night. Woodsie bailed him out. The passing game is still very much a work in progress. Orton certainly has some good games in him...and some not so good. He's average if only because he's not consistent. Average has to look pretty good to Billsfans tho. The D is really what this team's all about right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsBackersChicago Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Orton's accuracy was hardly pinpoint last night. Woodsie bailed him out. The passing game is still very much a work in progress. Orton certainly has some good games in him...and some not so good. He's average if only because he's not consistent. Average has to look pretty good to Billsfans tho. The D is really what this team's all about right now. I was pretty sure i was going to see a post to this effect today. As I watched the replays, a lot of the throws where woods had to "help him out" were actually thrown exactly where they needed to be, and the only place they could be to make the completion while a avoiding the defender or a pick. The touchdown and the short out route to the sideline were prime examples. On his Go route, if the defender doesn't take away his arm, woods doesn't have to make a circus catch and the ball is caught in stride (IIRC). Don't get me wrong, these were all great catches by woods, but they were also excellent throws that just needed to be placed in awkward spots because of the position of the defenders. Just because a receiver has to make an awkward catch doesn't mean the throw was "off". Obviously its best to hit a wide open receiver in stride, but sometimes that is not possible and you have to take what is available. I will give that he missed some open receivers including Sammy, but Sammy dropped several of those "hard to catch" passes, was often double covered, and Woods was hot, so I am sure that Orton's eyes just drifted to the receiver who was making plays more often. Nonetheless if the all 22 shows frequently wide open receivers that could have been hit in stride than we have a legitimate gripe. The only caveat would be that if they were the 4th receiver on the progression, it may have not been feasible to get through all the reads to get the ball to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 (edited) Doing some calculations... the average game for a QB this year is: (using the top 32 qualified QBs) 22/35 (64%) 247 yards, 1.7 TD, 0.8 INT, 91.7 RTG So, Kyle has had 4 games above the avg RTG, and three below. http://espn.go.com/n...8520/kyle-orton 3 above on percentage, 4 below 3 above on INT, 4 below 4 above on TD, 3 below Edited November 25, 2014 by Dorkington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prickly Pete Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 (edited) The Bills haven't beaten any top QB's this season, (Stafford, Cutler....meh, guys that run hot and cold). Now they will face Manning, Rodgers, and Brady....Orton will fall short. This team just kinda scrums with the rest of the fodder of the NFL, winning some, and losing some...Orton doesn't cut it, and cannot raise the team above the middle of the pack. Edited November 25, 2014 by HoF Watkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Buffalo Wings Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 What QB can't you say that about. If he plays well we win. QBs that have bad defenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 The Bills haven't beaten any top QB's this season, (Stafford, Cutler....meh, guys that run hot and cold). Now they will face Manning, Rodgers, and Brady....Orton will fall short. This team just kinda scrums with the rest of the fodder of the NFL, winning some, and losing some...Orton doesn't cut it, and cannot raise the team above the middle of the pack. So where are we going to get a HoF QB before those games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prickly Pete Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 So where are we going to get a HoF QB before those games? We aren't, we are going to lose regardless of Orton's career stats, or this season's, or compared to EJM, or anyone else. I don't understand the point of bickering about correctly assessing Orton's mediocrity. Where are people going with this? Average is an upgrade over what EJ was producing this year, imo. That's not to say EJ can't develop into something better, but this year he wasn't showing it, and we needed to make a change to a proven product. KO is good enough to get this team to the playoffs if the OL holds up, and our play calling improves. Neither of which are likely, though. Ahh, now I see... NO! He is not good enough to get us to the playoffs, even if those things happen, because he is not good enough to beat the good teams with great QB's that are on the remaining schedule. He can't match them. Not going to happen, yet you will blame it on the line, or running game or coaches, but Orton isn't good enough. Stats are crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 The Bills haven't beaten any top QB's this season, (Stafford, Cutler....meh, guys that run hot and cold). Now they will face Manning, Rodgers, and Brady....Orton will fall short. This team just kinda scrums with the rest of the fodder of the NFL, winning some, and losing some...Orton doesn't cut it, and cannot raise the team above the middle of the pack. That will be a test for the Defense.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 We aren't, we are going to lose regardless of Orton's career stats, or this season's, or compared to EJM, or anyone else. I don't understand the point of bickering about correctly assessing Orton's mediocrity. Where are people going with this? Ahh, now I see... NO! He is not good enough to get us to the playoffs, even if those things happen, because he is not good enough to beat the good teams with great QB's that are on the remaining schedule. He can't match them. Not going to happen, yet you will blame it on the line, or running game or coaches, but Orton isn't good enough. Stats are crap. Ok, so we won't make the playoffs until we get a HoF QB. That's all you had to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prickly Pete Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 (edited) Ok, so we won't make the playoffs until we get a HoF QB. That's all you had to say. That's not what I said, but I see how you like to play. Okay then... None of those guys are in the Hall of Fame, are they? I would say that, right now, this season, today, at this point, NO! Without a future Hall of Fame QB, this Bills team is not good enough to win enough of the remaining games on the schedule to make the playoffs. Kyle Orton is the kind of guy that can make the playoffs by beating teams like the Chiefs, and Dolphins (good, not great...the Bills wild card competition). He didn't, so the games against elite QB's are too much to overcome. Edited November 25, 2014 by HoF Watkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 That's not what I said, but I see how you like to play. Okay then... None of those guys are in the Hall of Fame, are they? I would say that, right now, this season, today, at this point, NO! Without a future Hall of Fame QB, this Bills team is not good enough to win enough of the remaining games on the schedule to make the playoffs. You want fries with those words? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah John Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I want to point out that Orton plays offense. He's never on the field at the same time as Brady, Rodgers, or Manning. It's up to the defense to limit their production, not our QB. The idea that QBs are going mano a mano like starting pitchers in baseball do, is exaggerated. All QBs want to win and they try their best when going up against a good opponent, but unless a QB really screws up and causes turnovers to give the other team short fields, it's not usually the case that a great QB on one team can neutralize a great QB on the other. The Jets beat the Steelers a couple weeks ago. I don't think Michael Vick was what gave Roethlisberger problems. Actually after yesterday I can't even imagine what it was on the Jets that gave Roethlisberger problems. But they must have figured something out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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