New sale of team thread

[socalfan]

lol... Pegula should back out over the threat of Bon Jovi?

 

 

It makes some sense, until you realize that Pegula will have no debt service, so he can continue raking in the $25-40 million/year profits the team makes (maybe even more in a new stadium). If he owns it for 10 years he will have pocketed 250-400 million in profits simply from operating the team. Plus he will still own the team (and probably the stadium) outright. It will be a cash cow. In 20 years he's looking at 500-800 million in profits.

 

 

Maybe my arithmetic isn't what it use to be. Suppose Pegula built a stadium and spent 400 million on it and the state, county and city paid the rest but as a reward for keeping the Bills in Buffalo gave it to him along with the land in 10 years. Then 1.3 billion + 400 million= 1.7 billion out of pocket. Lets say tv rights go crazy and Bills's fans love Pegula so much for keeping the Bills in Buffalo that they pay higher ticket prices and maybe even seating licenses so that Pegula earns on average 100 million in after tax profits per year. Then in 17 years he will regain the original outlay of $1.7 billion for the team and stadium. He will be 80 years.

 

Sounds like charity to me.

[TXBILLSFAN]

 

 

Actually, it was me, and what I said was that he played a key role in keeping the team here, and expanded to tell you why.

 

I've also showed you that your impression about the supposed under-spending is simply incorrect on multiple occasions. Just in case you don't recall, however, here are the numbers:

 

21st in Active Cash Spending

22nd in Total Cash Spending

10th in Cash-to-Cap Ratio

 

http://overthecap.com/nfl-cash-space.php?Year=2013

 

And as I always ask you when you bring this point up: can you please correlate spending to winning positively? It's never been done before...

We had this debate on the boards before, on spending v. winning, but again, you are now making a different argument.

 

So, first on the original point on whether Brandon helped keep team in Buffalo. I would accept your premise that profits matter if the likely new owner were viewing the franchise as an investment, like a regular business. Pegula is not, so, while nice to be profitable, it's largely irrelevant to his interest in owning the team. That was my point. I suspect, like the Sabres, Pegula will spend more on facilities, scouting, coaches at the expense of the bottom line to provide team with the resources it needs to be a winner. I don't think that's what is happening currently at OBD. In fact, I'd love to see the average spending on those areas over the past decade for the Bills vs. other NFL teams to see how we compare. If profits are achieved because we spend less on coaches/scouts/facilities etc. and we sell a game to Toronto to help revenue at the expense of ability to win that game and we under spend the cap more than 75% of the other teams and we have no debt because we play in an old stadium etc. etc --- to me, that isn't some "miracle worker" as Sal Pal was quoted as saying. To me, that's an organization running a team on the cheap to stay in business. I want more than that.

 

I want the Bills to be willing to spend to get the best coaches/facilities/trainers/scouts/players etc. etc. I don't want them to sell a game to Toronto.

 

I think ya'll are giving too much credit to Brandon.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Lets just assume for the sake of argument you're right, So the new owner puts a stop to it as you suggest. What makes you think he won't be then making the decisions instead. That was one of the big knocks on RW getting too involved. So you're not OK with Brandon making decisions but would be ok if it were say Donald Trump??

 

7 people should be people qualified to evaluate talent and gameplan. Let's stop pretending this guy doesn't carry a huge influence. I would. I don't blame him. This is exactly what a new owner needs to put a stop to. Since Brandon has as ended to and above football ops nothing but last place finishes.

[May Day 10]

Its a little chicken and egg though. Would someone be interested in keeping the team in Buffalo if their revenues weren't so high?

 

Maybe he did a good job economically... but with pegula I don't see Brandon overseeing football ops as well. No more front and center in the draft room. No more evaluating players in preseason games. If he wants to be business only, that's fine. If not, he had a decent run here and was a part of keeping the team afloat during lean years. Business management and marketing types are a dime a dozen. Pegula isn't going to want a guy with no football credentials sitting on top of the squad.

 

With the sabres there is a much more defined line between black and murray. I would expect the same here.

 

 

Golisano on the other hand I could see basically desiring an all encompassing mgr like brandon.... The same philosophy that stuck us with Larry Quinn.

[thebandit27]

We had this debate on the boards before, on spending v. winning, but again, you are now making a different argument.

 

So, first on the original point on whether Brandon helped keep team in Buffalo. I would accept your premise that profits matter if the likely new owner were viewing the franchise as an investment, like a regular business. Pegula is not, so, while nice to be profitable, it's largely irrelevant to his interest in owning the team. That was my point. I suspect, like the Sabres, Pegula will spend more on facilities, scouting, coaches at the expense of the bottom line to provide team with the resources it needs to be a winner. I don't think that's what is happening currently at OBD. In fact, I'd love to see the average spending on those areas over the past decade for the Bills vs. other NFL teams to see how we compare. If profits are achieved because we spend less on coaches/scouts/facilities etc. and we sell a game to Toronto to help revenue at the expense of ability to win that game and we under spend the cap more than 75% of the other teams and we have no debt because we play in an old stadium etc. etc --- to me, that isn't some "miracle worker" as Sal Pal was quoted as saying. To me, that's an organization running a team on the cheap to stay in business. I want more than that.

 

You are confusing my response with Promo's. Yes, he kept them profitable, and did so long before the Toronto series. That was not what I said.

 

What I said was that he developed a very, very strong relationship with the other NFL owners, and that's a HUGE reason why the NFL does not want the team moved. You don't have to give him credit for this; you'd be silly to ignore it though.

 

You're grasping when you talk about spending on coaches--it's never been an issue. Jauron got a very good contract extension when he was here. The hiring of Marrone had zero to do with money; they chased Chip Kelly and were rebuffed, and you can be sure they understood that he came with a hefty price tag.

 

As I've told you many times before, it's not a lack of spending, it's a lack of spending on the right people...although with Marrone it remains to be seen if he's the right guy or not.

 

I also don't know how you can say "we under spend the cap more than 75% of the other teams" when the data were provided for you in my previous post. The team is 10th in cash-to-cap spending.

 

I want the Bills to be willing to spend to get the best coaches/facilities/trainers/scouts/players etc. etc. I don't want them to sell a game to Toronto.

 

They chased Mike Shanahan a few years back and made him a mind-blowing offer; he didn't want to coach here. Ditto for Bill Cowher.

 

Make no mistake, Nix/Whaley hired Marrone because they thought he'd be the best coach.

 

And you got your wish with the Toronto series being on hold.

 

Maybe he did a good job economically... but with pegula I don't see Brandon overseeing football ops as well. No more front and center in the draft room. No more evaluating players in preseason games. If he wants to be business only, that's fine. If not, he had a decent run here and was a part of keeping the team afloat during lean years. Business management and marketing types are a dime a dozen. Pegula isn't going to want a guy with no football credentials sitting on top of the squad.

 

With the sabres there is a much more defined line between black and murray. I would expect the same here.

 

 

Golisano on the other hand I could see basically desiring an all encompassing mgr like brandon.... The same philosophy that stuck us with Larry Quinn.

 

You may not believe it, but that's how it is now.

 

It's Whaley's team

[Kirby Jackson]

We had this debate on the boards before, on spending v. winning, but again, you are now making a different argument.

 

So, first on the original point on whether Brandon helped keep team in Buffalo. I would accept your premise that profits matter if the likely new owner were viewing the franchise as an investment, like a regular business. Pegula is not, so, while nice to be profitable, it's largely irrelevant to his interest in owning the team. That was my point. I suspect, like the Sabres, Pegula will spend more on facilities, scouting, coaches at the expense of the bottom line to provide team with the resources it needs to be a winner. I don't think that's what is happening currently at OBD. In fact, I'd love to see the average spending on those areas over the past decade for the Bills vs. other NFL teams to see how we compare. If profits are achieved because we spend less on coaches/scouts/facilities etc. and we sell a game to Toronto to help revenue at the expense of ability to win that game and we under spend the cap more than 75% of the other teams and we have no debt because we play in an old stadium etc. etc --- to me, that isn't some "miracle worker" as Sal Pal was quoted as saying. To me, that's an organization running a team on the cheap to stay in business. I want more than that.

 

I want the Bills to be willing to spend to get the best coaches/facilities/trainers/scouts/players etc. etc. I don't want them to sell a game to Toronto.

 

I think ya'll are giving too much credit to Brandon.

We need to separate coaches/scouts/facilities. The Bills practice facility is considered the best in the NFL. The stadium is undergoing work now but it certainly is not on par with others. The facility where they spend the overwhelming majority of their time has been invaluable in the Bills recruiting efforts.

 

Coaches have been a different story but I would argue that is not for a lack of trying. The Bills went after Cowher, Shannahan, Kelly, etc... Additionally, they have guys like Pepper Johnson, and Donnie Henderson who are well respected around the league and a former head coach as a coordinator. Those guys do not come cheap.

 

Scouting is similar. Last year Whaley brought two people from well respected organizations that were high ranking members of their departments. Same goes for the Bills investment in technology.

 

They are not operating on the cheap at all. They just happen to be very good at running their business. When you are operating in Buffalo you have to be a little better to have success than if you are operating in New York or Boston. Fortunately for us, the group that we have in place is just that.

 

Maybe he did a good job economically... but with pegula I don't see Brandon overseeing football ops as well. No more front and center in the draft room. No more evaluating players in preseason games. If he wants to be business only, that's fine. If not, he had a decent run here and was a part of keeping the team afloat during lean years. Business management and marketing types are a dime a dozen. Pegula isn't going to want a guy with no football credentials sitting on top of the squad.

 

With the sabres there is a much more defined line between black and murray. I would expect the same here.

 

 

Golisano on the other hand I could see basically desiring an all encompassing mgr like brandon.... The same philosophy that stuck us with Larry Quinn.

I think that the football ops part is overblown. I came from an organization where the GM reported to the president that was very similar in structure to the Bills. In both cases, the president is responsible for the whole operation but defers the end decision to the GM. If Whaley came to Russ and said we need to give up next year's 1 to get Watkins he would say go for it. If he said that we need to give up our next 5 number 1's to get him he would have said no way. He is the checks and balances (not the scout). That is where people are getting a little confused. He runs the team, it happens in tons of places. He is going to give his blessing to anything that Whaley says needs to be done (unless it is ridiculous like the example). If you guys think that he is breaking down video and giving his thoughts on who should make the team you are crazy. Those decisions are left to the coaches and personnel people.

[May Day 10]

Then he needs to not be in the middle of the war room with notebooks and a laptop, not seen at preseason games deep in concentration with a laptop... and he shouldn't be giving direct answers on the makeup of the team via interviews. It's a bad look and gives an impression he is way more than a rubber stamp for nix then whaley. After he "stepped away" from football after gm (only because the fan base was revolting).

Especially if you consider what nix mentioned about others executing the Lee Evans trade and also the rumblings this year that things at field level vs management are disjointed.

 

If this streak of last place finishes continues this season, I see no reason to desire the status quo. Organization needs major change, not the cosmetic recycled one we have been getting fed since Donahoe left

Edited August 4, 2014 by May Day 10

[A Dog Named Kelso]

Its a little chicken and egg though. Would someone be interested in keeping the team in Buffalo if their revenues weren't so high?

Actually, it was me, and what I said was that he played a key role in keeping the team here, and expanded to tell you why.

 

I've also showed you that your impression about the supposed under-spending is simply incorrect on multiple occasions. Just in case you don't recall, however, here are the numbers:

 

21st in Active Cash Spending

22nd in Total Cash Spending

10th in Cash-to-Cap Ratio

 

http://overthecap.co...e.php?Year=2013

 

And as I always ask you when you bring this point up: can you please correlate spending to winning positively? It's never been done before...

 

So ... Are we say Ralph would not have kept the team here if it were not for Brandon? Or are we say owners really have no leg to stand on for moving the team regardless of who acquires it?

[TXBILLSFAN]

Bandit / Kirby (and Promo); since you all are tag teaming me on this one, I'll try and respond in one post, rather than multiple.

 

I think you guys are making arguments that Brandon is a competent executive that can run an organization profitably. That's all well and good and might have had tremendous value to Ralph and Littman, but I don't see it as a priority for Pegula as an owner and not one that tilts his interest in buying the team one way or another. So, from that perspective, he's had no influence on new ownership.

 

You keep bringing up how well respected Brandon is to the other owners, again, all well and good, but how does that help Pegula get a yes vote as a new owner ? Pegula will be judged on his own merits and what he plans to do with the team going forward, not what the previous regime did or did not do or how well liked they were or were not.

 

On some other points:

 

I acknowledge that the Bills have started to invest in facilities, but, I've been to over a dozen NFL stadiums and visited their facilities over the past 3 years and their facilities put what the Bills had (before this upgrade) to shame.

 

The Bills have hired NFL retreads or first time coaches the past 15 years, so they've under paid the league averages. I understand they went after Shanahan and others who didn't want to come here. Instead of bringing that up in defense of Brandon and the Bills FO, why not ask yourselves why those guys DIDN'T want to come here ?

 

I look at the NFL landscape with my friends, who are fans of a dozen other teams, not named Buffalo and they say what every other NFL fan says about the Bills (including the media and other executives), the Bills are irrelevant in today's NFL. What a shame.

 

Yet, as a fan base (at least most on this board), ya'll will fight to your death to defend this FO and the man that leads it. You would think I created heresy by suggesting that maybe Brandon needs to go. I bring that up and all I get is how he wasn't responsible for anything that went wrong for 15 years. How everyone in the NFL loves him. How he's only really been in charge for 18 months. How his hands are tied.

 

I know from your perspectives, I'm not being objective and you think I hate the man. I hate the results that have taken place over the last 15 years and I have no confidence with him in charge that it will be fixed.

 

From my perspective, when you all are defending him, I see and hear a lot of excuse making and false hope and a failure to face reality and I quite honestly can't understand it.

 

 

 

 

 

[thebandit27]

So ... Are we say Ralph would not have kept the team here if it were not for Brandon? Or are we say owners really have no leg to stand on for moving the team regardless of who acquires it?

 

I'm not sure what Ralph has to do with it?

 

I won't speak for Kirby (although I know how he feels on this one), but I was saying that Ralph's appointment of Brandon to CEO (and the guy that attends the owner's meetings) was a big positive from the perspective of the other owners. They've gotten to know Russ and they like the way he runs the business side of the organization. That fact, coupled with his ability to keep the team quite profitable in this market, have helped secure the support of NFL ownership (with regard to keeping the team here) during the current team sale.

 

My apologies if that was unclear.

 

It's one thing for the Trust to sell only to a buyer that would keep the team here...it's quite another for them to have the NFL's support in doing so...

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

 

So ... Are we say Ralph would not have kept the team here if it were not for Brandon? Or are we say owners really have no leg to stand on for moving the team regardless of who acquires it?

Ralph was always going to keep the team. The $ that they generate is what has others considering it.

[KDIGGZ]

I must have missed this last night, but apparently Al Michaels said that Trump told him that he put in a $1 Billion cash offer with no contingencies and said he would cut them a check on the spot. I'm going to go out a limb and say that is going to be his best offer. Interesting though if it came direct from Trump to Michaels. That's the first confirmed dollar amount we have heard of as far as I know, everything else has been speculation and rumors

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/will-the-donald-s-all-cash-offer-for-buffalo-bills-trump-all-other-bids-123217461.html

[thebandit27]

Bandit / Kirby (and Promo); since you all are tag teaming me on this one, I'll try and respond in one post, rather than multiple.

 

I think you guys are making arguments that Brandon is a competent executive that can run an organization profitably. That's all well and good and might have had tremendous value to Ralph and Littman, but I don't see it as a priority for Pegula as an owner and not one that tilts his interest in buying the team one way or another. So, from that perspective, he's had no influence on new ownership.

 

You keep bringing up how well respected Brandon is to the other owners, again, all well and good, but how does that help Pegula get a yes vote as a new owner ? Pegula will be judged on his own merits and what he plans to do with the team going forward, not what the previous regime did or did not do or how well liked they were or were not.

 

On some other points:

 

I acknowledge that the Bills have started to invest in facilities, but, I've been to over a dozen NFL stadiums and visited their facilities over the past 3 years and their facilities put what the Bills had (before this upgrade) to shame.

 

The Bills have hired NFL retreads or first time coaches the past 15 years, so they've under paid the league averages. I understand they went after Shanahan and others who didn't want to come here. Instead of bringing that up in defense of Brandon and the Bills FO, why not ask yourselves why those guys DIDN'T want to come here ?

 

I look at the NFL landscape with my friends, who are fans of a dozen other teams, not named Buffalo and they say what every other NFL fan says about the Bills (including the media and other executives), the Bills are irrelevant in today's NFL. What a shame.

 

Yet, as a fan base (at least most on this board), ya'll will fight to your death to defend this FO and the man that leads it. You would think I created heresy by suggesting that maybe Brandon needs to go. I bring that up and all I get is how he wasn't responsible for anything that went wrong for 15 years. How everyone in the NFL loves him. How he's only really been in charge for 18 months. How his hands are tied.

 

I know from your perspectives, I'm not being objective and you think I hate the man. I hate the results that have taken place over the last 15 years and I have no confidence with him in charge that it will be fixed.

 

From my perspective, when you all are defending him, I see and hear a lot of excuse making and false hope and a failure to face reality and I quite honestly can't understand it.

 

The value that Russ has to Pegula will be, at the very least, a smooth transition from the previous regime to the next regime. With regard to the rest of NFL ownership, that's a pretty big deal. Pegula doesn't need anyone's help in getting approved as a new owner; that will be unanimous (and take about 1/3 of a second).

 

The reason big-name coaches didn't want to come here was quite simple: an unstable ownership situation that would not become clearly stable while Ralph was still in the picture.

 

I've never once said that Brandon shouldn't be evaluated on his own merits; he should. The new owner should absolutely review his performance. What I've said repeatedly is that his job as CEO is not on the on-field end of things, which is (seemingly) how you're evaluating him.

 

Several of us have tried to draw the line between the business side and the on-field side in order to show you how this team (and other teams) operate. You contend differently, and say that Russ is responsible for what's gone on on the field for the last 15 years.

 

The good news here is that he will be evaluated by the new owner, but I wouldn't expect him to go anywhere any time soon. He's very good at what he does, and he'll very likely be retained--in the very least he'll be on board long enough to bridge the ownership gap.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

 

The Bills have hired NFL retreads or first time coaches the past 15 years, so they've under paid the league averages. I understand they went after Shanahan and others who didn't want to come here. Instead of bringing that up in defense of Brandon and the Bills FO, why not ask yourselves why those guys DIDN'T want to come here ?

 

 

 

Sorry but don't all coaches fall into these categories?

[YoloinOhio]

Sorry but don't all coaches fall into these categories?

lmao

[bbb]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but there is no way Brandon keeps his current role with a new owner. Best case scenario for him is to return to a VP, Non-football operations position, worst case scenario is outright firing. At this time, Brandon is in a role as the quasi-owner because Ralph was no longer able to handle ownership duties, a new owner will be "the owner".

 

As for the JBJ letter, just another example that this guy is not ready for primetime of being an owner, another colossal PR fail.

 

Even though you didn't want to hijack this thread, it certainly has mostly become about Brandon, and not about the sale of the team.

[Gugny]

The Bills have hired NFL retreads or first time coaches the past 15 years.

Exactly. It almost seems like with the coaches that they've hired over that span, that they've either won or lost every single game.

[Taro T]

Bandit / Kirby (and Promo); since you all are tag teaming me on this one, I'll try and respond in one post, rather than multiple.

 

I think you guys are making arguments that Brandon is a competent executive that can run an organization profitably. That's all well and good and might have had tremendous value to Ralph and Littman, but I don't see it as a priority for Pegula as an owner and not one that tilts his interest in buying the team one way or another. So, from that perspective, he's had no influence on new ownership.

 

You keep bringing up how well respected Brandon is to the other owners, again, all well and good, but how does that help Pegula get a yes vote as a new owner ? Pegula will be judged on his own merits and what he plans to do with the team going forward, not what the previous regime did or did not do or how well liked they were or were not.

 

On some other points:

 

I acknowledge that the Bills have started to invest in facilities, but, I've been to over a dozen NFL stadiums and visited their facilities over the past 3 years and their facilities put what the Bills had (before this upgrade) to shame.

 

The Bills have hired NFL retreads or first time coaches the past 15 years, so they've under paid the league averages. I understand they went after Shanahan and others who didn't want to come here. Instead of bringing that up in defense of Brandon and the Bills FO, why not ask yourselves why those guys DIDN'T want to come here ?

 

I look at the NFL landscape with my friends, who are fans of a dozen other teams, not named Buffalo and they say what every other NFL fan says about the Bills (including the media and other executives), the Bills are irrelevant in today's NFL. What a shame.

 

Yet, as a fan base (at least most on this board), ya'll will fight to your death to defend this FO and the man that leads it. You would think I created heresy by suggesting that maybe Brandon needs to go. I bring that up and all I get is how he wasn't responsible for anything that went wrong for 15 years. How everyone in the NFL loves him. How he's only really been in charge for 18 months. How his hands are tied.

 

I know from your perspectives, I'm not being objective and you think I hate the man. I hate the results that have taken place over the last 15 years and I have no confidence with him in charge that it will be fixed.

 

From my perspective, when you all are defending him, I see and hear a lot of excuse making and false hope and a failure to face reality and I quite honestly can't understand it.

I know this is in response to whether Brandon helped keep the team here or not. (And on that point I'm on board w/ Kirby.) But it is very unlikely that TP would punt Brandon if he does have the winning bid. Though TP doesn't need to turn a profit, it's unreasonable to think he doesn't want to turn a profit. If Russ can make one of the smallest market teams AND the team w/ a ~14 year playoff drought bring in more revenue than 12 other teams, why wouldn't he want him running the business side of things? If he's that successful bringing in $'s for this awful product, imagine what he could do if Whalley or his successor gets it right?

[TXBILLSFAN]

 

 

Sorry but don't all coaches fall into these categories?

 

 

The value that Russ has to Pegula will be, at the very least, a smooth transition from the previous regime to the next regime. With regard to the rest of NFL ownership, that's a pretty big deal. Pegula doesn't need anyone's help in getting approved as a new owner; that will be unanimous (and take about 1/3 of a second).

 

The reason big-name coaches didn't want to come here was quite simple: an unstable ownership situation that would not become clearly stable while Ralph was still in the picture.

 

I've never once said that Brandon shouldn't be evaluated on his own merits; he should. The new owner should absolutely review his performance. What I've said repeatedly is that his job as CEO is not on the on-field end of things, which is (seemingly) how you're evaluating him.

 

Several of us have tried to draw the line between the business side and the on-field side in order to show you how this team (and other teams) operate. You contend differently, and say that Russ is responsible for what's gone on on the field for the last 15 years.

 

The good news here is that he will be evaluated by the new owner, but I wouldn't expect him to go anywhere any time soon. He's very good at what he does, and he'll very likely be retained--in the very least he'll be on board long enough to bridge the ownership gap.

90% of my Brandon issues disappear if he is relegated to non-football activities. Right now, he isn't. With new owner, best case for him is in a Ted Black type role with little or no involvement with on-the-field product. I think Pegula hires Todd France to run Football operations and he'll be judge over GM/HC.

 

Sorry, Kelso, when I said retreads, I thought it was self-explanatory, I meant largely unsuccessful or NFL coaches that haven't been HC's in a while (i.e. Jauron, Gailey)

 

We can get back to new ownership talk, I think we all are firmly entrenched in our positions on Mr. Brandon.

Edited August 4, 2014 by TXBILLSFAN

[Nanker]

I said it earlier. If Mary is so friggin' concerned about her friends well being and not having a job if a new owner comes in and ****-cans them, she could very easily pony up a few dozen million dollars to each of them to make their post-Bills years, ah hem... comfortable.

Oh, but it's not about the money. Sure. I get it.