What is better, no guns, or more guns?

[ArdmoreRyno]

6 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

There are extremely stringent requirements regarding who has access to weapons produced for the US military.

No such limitations are effective in our civilian gun culture.

 

Huh? What US military weapon can you buy without a Form 4 ATF stamp and a long ass expensive wait? I guess you can buy sidearms... but besides that, huh?

[Chef Jim]

3 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

 

I haven't been able to vote for any gun law. I do own quite a few firearms (again, I compete long distance) and not one has ever hurt anyone. Well, I did get a copper jacket frag in my arm shooting once. 

 

Yup it's our fault for not voting for sensible gun laws.  Wait a minute.  When was that on the ballot?   

 

We know who to blame on this.  It's the worthless pieces of ***** that have populated DC for the last 50 years.  

[BillStime]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

🎯

 

 

[LeviF]

Someone upthread posted a graph which compared gun violence rates. Some people point out that Switzerland has a decent amount of guns but little gun violence and no mass shootings. Nobody talks about the hellhole Central and South American countries with plenty of gun violence but also don't have these mass shootings carried out by lone wolves. Even among the countries with *more* gun violence than the US, America is different in this regard.

[BillStime]

🎯

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, BillStime said:

 

Of course, it is everyone else's fault but which party, governors, and politicians are making it easy to get guns?

 

YOUR PARTY.

 

 

 The problem everybody avoids admitting exists is American's have been conditioned to love war and violence and have been desensitized from it due to constant exposure.  Add in a failing education system and broken families due to a terrible economy for working people that results in lots of dysfunction and kids turning out mentally FUBARed.  We had access to guns when I went to high school and lots of gripes and grievances with lots of other students and cliques but nobody on either side of these disputes went out and shot up the town because of it all.  Today, there's simply was too many people running loose out there that are a couple cans short of a 6-pack.  But embrace diversity.  Even if they are criminally insane.       

 

Also, there's lots of guns in Switzerland too.  Mass shootings not so much.  Because of the culture and not because of gun control.  The geniuses in our government left billions in military grade weapons in places like Afghanistan and Iraq and outside of their governments killing lots of people there aren't a lot of mass shootings perpetrated by disgruntled civilians.  For the major source of violence look no further than the consensus blood lust for war in Washington's uni-party establishment.  The same dick-wads that want to arm every person on Earth in every other country want to take all the guns out of hands of civilians here.  How's that reconcile?  

 

[ChiGoose]

For people looking for possible solutions to reducing gun deaths (elimination is not possible but we should strive to save lives where we can), I find this article from 2017 to have a helpful breakdown of potential solutions that are backed by data:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/06/opinion/how-to-reduce-shootings.html

 

Some highlights of potential solutions:

 

Quote

Gun enthusiasts often protest: Cars kill about as many people as guns, and we don’t ban them! No, but automobiles are actually a model for the public health approach I’m suggesting.

 

We don’t ban cars, but we work hard to regulate them — and limit access to them — so as to reduce the death toll they cause. This has been spectacularly successful, reducing the death rate per 100 million miles driven to less than one-seventh of what it was in 1946.

 

Frankly, liberal opposition to guns has often been ineffective, and sometimes counterproductive. The 10-year ban on assault weapons accomplished little, partly because definitions were about cosmetic features like bayonet mounts (and partly because even before the ban, such guns were used in only 2 percent of crimes).

 

The left sometimes focuses on “gun control,” which scares off gun owners and leads to more gun sales. A better framing is “gun safety” or “reducing gun violence,” and using auto safety as a model—constant efforts to make the products safer and to limit access by people who are most likely to misuse them.

 

What would a public health approach look like for guns if it were modeled after cars? It would include:

 

Background checks

22 percent of guns are obtained without one.

 

Protection orders

Keep men who are subject to domestic violence protection orders from having guns.

 

Ban under-21s

A ban on people under 21 purchasing firearms (this is already the case in many states).

 

Safe storage

These include trigger locks as well as guns and ammunition stored separately, especially when children are in the house.

 

Straw purchases

Tighter enforcement of laws on straw purchases of weapons, and some limits on how many guns can be purchased in a month.

 

Ammunition checks

Experimentation with a one-time background check for anybody buying ammunition.

 

End immunity

End immunity for firearm companies. That’s a subsidy to a particular industry.

 

Ban bump stocks

A ban on bump stocks of the kind used in Las Vegas to mimic automatic weapon fire.

 

Research ‘smart guns’

“Smart guns” fire only after a fingerprint or PIN is entered, or if used near a particular bracelet.

 

I think most of these are fairly reasonable starting points. And we already banned bump stocks in 2019, so that's one box already checked. I would also suggest de-gendering the domestic abuse one. Women can be abusers as well and should be subject to the same restrictions as men.

Edited May 25, 2022 by ChiGoose
Really bad typo

[ArdmoreRyno]

1 minute ago, ChiGoose said:

For people looking for possible solutions to reducing gun deaths (elimination is possible but we should strive to save lives where we can), I find this article from 2017 to have a helpful breakdown of potential solutions that are backed by data:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/06/opinion/how-to-reduce-shootings.html

 

Some highlights of potential solutions:

 

 

I think most of these are fairly reasonable starting points. And we already banned bump stocks in 2019, so that's one box already checked. I would also suggest de-gendering the domestic abuse one. Women can be abusers as well and should be subject to the same restrictions as men.

 

This is the issue. Banning bump stocks, which are completely worthless (I had one, sold it like after the first time I used it), makes zero difference in violent crime. It will likely be legal to own again, just FYI. One court (US Military court in fact) already said it's NOT a machine gun. 

Can't read the rest... not subscribed to the Times. 

 

 

[1stgm1993]

8 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

Research ‘smart guns’

“Smart guns” fire only after a fingerprint or PIN is entered, or if used near a particular bracelet.

judge dred

[Chef Jim]

5 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

 

This is the issue. Banning bump stocks, which are completely worthless (I had one, sold it like after the first time I used it), makes zero difference in violent crime. It will likely be legal to own again, just FYI. One court (US Military court in fact) already said it's NOT a machine gun. 

Can't read the rest... not subscribed to the Times. 

 

 

I stopped reading when the poster said this:

 

For people looking for possible solutions to reducing gun deaths (elimination is possible but we should strive to save lives where we can)  
 

Unless of course that was a typo and they meant to say elimination in NOT possible. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[ChiGoose]

2 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

I stopped reading when the poster said this:

 

For people looking for possible solutions to reducing gun deaths (elimination is possible but we should strive to save lives where we can)  
 

Unless of course that was a typo and they meant to say elimination in NOT possible. 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

Whoops! Good catch. I meant not possible. I will edit.

[BillStime]

26 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

 The problem everybody avoids admitting exists is American's have been conditioned to love war and violence and have been desensitized from it due to constant exposure.  Add in a failing education system and broken families due to a terrible economy for working people that results in lots of dysfunction and kids turning out mentally FUBARed.  We had access to guns when I went to high school and lots of gripes and grievances with lots of other students and cliques but nobody on either side of these disputes went out and shot up the town because of it all.  Today, there's simply was too many people running loose out there that are a couple cans short of a 6-pack.  But embrace diversity.  Even if they are criminally insane.       

 

Also, there's lots of guns in Switzerland too.  Mass shootings not so much.  Because of the culture and not because of gun control.  The geniuses in our government left billions in military grade weapons in places like Afghanistan and Iraq and outside of their governments killing lots of people there aren't a lot of mass shootings perpetrated by disgruntled civilians.  For the major source of violence look no further than the consensus blood lust for war in Washington's uni-party establishment.  The same dick-wads that want to arm every person on Earth in every other country want to take all the guns out of hands of civilians here.  How's that reconcile?  

 

 

Most Americans want to be safe and support some form of gun control and safety. 

 

In the end, THIS IS NOT NORMAL and the blame needs to go to the voters who vote these NRA loving SOBs in year after year.

 

 

[Chef Jim]

1 minute ago, ChiGoose said:

 

Whoops! Good catch. I meant not possible. I will edit.

Whew. Had me worried there for a second. 
 

This will be one of the very few times I will use this term in a non derogatory manner…

 

Carry on.  

[ArdmoreRyno]

19 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

Most Americans want to be safe and support some form of gun control and safety. 

 

In the end, THIS IS NOT NORMAL and the blame needs to go to the voters who vote these NRA loving SOBs in year after year.

 

 

 

We have laws in place for gun control right now. And many-many Americans are uneducated regarding firearms and get their info from CNN and Fox (both have been way off about firearms). 

[BillStime]

2 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

 

We have laws in place for gun control right now. And many-many Americans are uneducated regarding firearms and get their info from CNN and Fox (both have been way off about firearms). 

 

Yes, we do... And states have their own laws... just look at Texas.  

 

You can buy a gun faster than it takes to get a car wash at Delta Sonic.

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

As I’ve stated….I’m really not a gun guy, but in this instance what difference would the ‘assault ban’ have made to the  unarmed little kids in that classroom? Could the shooter not have been able to do the same, or similar, damage with a couple of hand guns? 

[ArdmoreRyno]

3 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

Yes, we do... And states have their own laws... just look at Texas.  

 

You can buy a gun faster than it takes to get a car wash at Delta Sonic.

 

 

 

You go through the SAME background check in Texas as you do in California. 

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

As I’ve stated….I’m really not a gun guy, but in this instance what difference would the ‘assault ban’ have made to the  unarmed little kids in that classroom? Could the shooter not have been able to do the same, or similar, damage with a couple of hand guns? 

 

Studies have shown, it made zero difference in school shootings. None. And yes, a 9mm could kill as many as the AR in CQ (close quarters). The worst school shooting in American history was carried about my a little P22 (.22 pistol) and a 9mm handgun. 

 

AR's and Glocks have the same rate of fire. 

[Chef Jim]

3 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

Yes, we do... And states have their own laws... just look at Texas.  

 

You can buy a gun faster than it takes to get a car wash at Delta Sonic.

 

 

What are the requirements for fire arm purchases in TX?

 

Just now, ArdmoreRyno said:

 

You go through the SAME background check in Texas as you do in California. 

There is no waiting period in TX. CA is 10 days. 

[ArdmoreRyno]

Just now, Chef Jim said:

What are the requirements for fire arm purchases in TX?

 

There is no waiting period in TX. CA is 10 days. 

 

You fill out the SAME EXACT form and do a NICS check. I've done dozens of them. 

 

The difference is wait time. Most states don't have a "wait time" because it's moronic. California has the highest number of "mass shootings" (real ones, not gang BS) and I know I don't want my daughter(s) having to wait TEN DAYS to protect herself from someone threating her. Of course, I wouldn't let it get to that point. 

[BillStime]

4 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

 

You go through the SAME background check in Texas as you do in California. 

 

What is the waiting period for purchasing a firearm in the state of Texas?

 

[Chef Jim]

4 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

As I’ve stated….I’m really not a gun guy, but in this instance what difference would the ‘assault ban’ have made to the  unarmed little kids in that classroom? Could the shooter not have been able to do the same, or similar, damage with a couple of hand guns? 

Of course.  He was still likely mental and the weapon of choice most likely does not factor into his mental state at the time. 

Just now, ArdmoreRyno said:

 

You fill out the SAME EXACT form and do a NICS check. I've done dozens of them. 

 

The difference is wait time. Most states don't have a "wait time" because it's moronic. California has the highest number of "mass shootings" (real ones, not gang BS) and I know I don't want my daughter(s) having to wait TEN DAYS to protect herself from someone threating her. Of course, I wouldn't let it get to that point. 

Yes the form requirement and background check is the same 

1 minute ago, BillStime said:

 

What is the waiting period for purchasing a firearm in the state of Texas?

 

Which is the most important factor in this?  The background check or waiting period. You think this ***** cared if he had to wait 10 days? 

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

 

 

 

Studies have shown, it made zero difference in school shootings. None. And yes, a 9mm could kill as many as the AR in CQ (close quarters). The worst school shooting in American history was carried about my a little P22 (.22 pistol) and a 9mm handgun. 

 

AR's and Glocks have the same rate of fire. 

Thanks. I’m really not a gun advocate…at all. So if you’re correct, why did the President make his ranting statements last night? Why not propose some legislation that would actually have an impact? 

[ArdmoreRyno]

5 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

What is the waiting period for purchasing a firearm in the state of Texas?

 

 

We've already covered this, Einstein. 

Just now, SoCal Deek said:

Thanks. I’m really not a gun advocate…at all. So if you’re correct, why did the President make his ranting statements last night? Why not propose some legislation that would actually have an impact? 

 

I didn't hear what he said regarding that part. What did he say. 

 

And I seriously appreciate you asking questions. This is another major issue in this debate. People 'think' they understand firearms based off CNN, Fox News or politicians and it's nearly all incorrect. 

[BillStime]

2 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

 

We've already covered this, Einstein. 

 

I posed that question at the VERY same time you posted your comment on waiting times.

 

Freakshow.

 

[ArdmoreRyno]

Just now, BillStime said:

 

I posed that question at the VERY same time you posted your comment on waiting times.

 

Freakshow.

 

 

Name calling! Here we go! 

[LeviF]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Thanks. I’m really not a gun advocate…at all. So if you’re correct, why did the President make his ranting statements last night? Why not propose some legislation that would actually have an impact? 

 

5 hours ago, LeviF said:

 

None of the leftist response needs to make sense because every tragedy is just another cudgel to use to beat your opponent. 

 

[BillStime]

1 minute ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

 

Name calling! Here we go! 

 

Oh, no - I forgot how sensitive you are... 

 

F-bomb coming in 5-4-3-2-1...

 

[Orlando Tim]

18 hours ago, ChiGoose said:

I’m actually glad to talk about suicides because pro-gun people often focus the conversation on mass shootings and/or mental health when more gun deaths are due to suicide or accident. 
 

People who survive suicide attempts generally do not die by suicide. And aside from guns, most suicide attempts fail. So people who cut themselves or take a bunch of pills generally survive and end up not taking their own lives. 
 

But suicide attempts with guns are far more likely to be fatal. While some methods may have completion rates of 5-20%, suicide attempts by gun are 85%+ effective. Meaning that, in most cases, the person would survive and end up not killing themselves but because they had a gun, they did not survive and did not get that second chance.

 

When I look at the actual facts, what I hear you saying is my brother’s death doesn’t count or matter. Because he had a diagnosed mental condition but there were no laws that prevented him from buying a gun and blowing his brains out, that he doesn’t matter to you. And there are things I want to say about that but would probably get me kicked from the board. 
 

And in terms of my point about Chicago, I would suggest you consult a map and see where the most populous state in the city is versus the state lines. 
 

This isn’t hard. We are just making excuses to be ok with people dying. 

Your self righteousness and claiming of victimhood is impressive, especially since YOU are person linking murders to suicides. Separating the two based on willingness of participation is a big differentiation. I don't know your brother diagnosis but I do think certain diagnosis such as borderline personality, or schizophrenia should not allow people to be allowed. Lastly I work at an alternative school where 10% of our students have tried to commit suicide over the past year, and that is about normal for us, I do know the what it means to watch someone for the signs of extreme depression and feel for you if you did what you could to help him, but sometimes people do things that make no sense and you can't always help them, though we keep trying. 

[SoCal Deek]

48 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

 

 

I didn't hear what he said regarding that part. What did he say. 

 

And I seriously appreciate you asking questions. This is another major issue in this debate. People 'think' they understand firearms based off CNN, Fox News or politicians and it's nearly all incorrect. 

He almost immediately pivoted from sympathy for the families to an assault weapon ban. It seemed like an opportunity squandered to me. That’s it, Joe? Pass an assault weapon ban and then we’re good to go? Wouldn’t this be the time for Congress get their collective butts into the office, roll up their sleeves, and get to work? 

[Chef Jim]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

He almost immediately pivoted from sympathy for the families to an assault weapon ban. It seemed like an opportunity squandered to me. That’s it, Joe? Pass an assault weapon ban and then we’re good to go? Wouldn’t this be the time for Congress get their collective butts into the office, roll up their sleeves, and get to work? 

 

I assume he took the opportunity to weave in something about him and his family.  "I understand what it's like to lose a child because...yada yada yada...."

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

 

I assume he took the opportunity to weave in something about him and his family.  "I understand what it's like to lose a child because...yada yada yada...."

On the contrary…I think he did really well for about two minutes, and then, like usual he got mad and frustrated. Hey Mr President! You’re not a stupid Senate Committee anymore. Gather a joint session together and get to work!!!!!

[BillStime]

And don’t forget who made it easier for the mentally ill to get guns.

 

Trump made it easier for the mentally ill to get guns when he rolled back Obama regulation

 

In 2017, Trump quietly rolled back an Obama-era regulation that made it harder for people with mental illness to buy guns.

 

🎯

 

🎯

 

Thank you Trump voters - you own all of this.

[B-Man]

 

 

Written in 2018...........BY J. CHRISTIAN ADAMS 

 

 

 

The millennial generation might be surprised to learn that theirs is the first without guns in school. Just 30 years ago, high school kids rode the bus with rifles and shot their guns at high school rifle ranges.

 

After another school shooting, it’s time to ask: what changed?

 

Cross guns off the list of things that changed in thirty years. In 1985, semi-automatic rifles existed, and a semi-automatic rifle was used in Florida. Guns didn’t suddenly decide to visit mayhem on schools. Guns can’t decide.

 

We can also cross the Second Amendment off the list. It existed for over 200 years before this wickedness unfolded. Nothing changed in the Constitution.

 

That leaves us with some uncomfortable possibilities remaining. What has changed from thirty years ago when kids could take firearms into school responsibly and today might involve some difficult truths. Let’s inventory the possibilities.

 

What changed? The mainstreaming of nihilism. Cultural decay. Chemicals. The deliberate destruction of moral backstops in the culture. A lost commonality of shared societal pressures to enforce right and wrong. And above all, simple, pure, evil.

 

Before you retort that we can’t account for the mentally ill, they existed forever.

 

Paranoid schizophrenics existed in 1888 and 2018. Mentally ill students weren’t showing up in schools with guns even three decades ago.

 

So it must be something else.

 

Those who have been so busy destroying the moral backstops in our culture won’t want to have this conversation. They’ll do what they do — mock the truth.

 

There was a time in America, before the Snowflakes, when any adult on the block could reprimand a neighborhood kid who was out of line without fear.

 

Even thirty years ago, the culture still had invisible restraints developed over centuries. Those restraints, those leveling commonalities, were the target of a half-century of attack by the freewheeling counterculture that has now become the dominant replacement culture.

 

{snip}

 

The high school kids who shot rifles in school in 1985 were taught right and wrong. They were taught what to do with their rifle in school, and what not to do. If they got out of line, all the other students and the coach would have come down on them hard. There were no safe spaces, and that was a good thing.

 

Culture is a powerful force for good. When good behavior is normalized and deviant destructive behavior is ostracized, shamed, and marginalized, you get more good behavior.

 

Considering evil in this debate makes some of you uncomfortable, but evil bathes all of these shootings.

 

The idea that guns caused the carnage we have faced is so intellectually bankrupt that it isn’t worth discussing.

 

Remembering where we were as a nation just 30 years ago makes it even more so. It’s time to ask what changed.

 

 

[Tiberius]

 

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

 

Looks to me like good ‘ol Beto is yet another domestic terrorist disrupting a local public meeting. Where’s the attorney general when we really need him? 

[Tiberius]

 

[aristocrat]

Sandy Hook-kid had mental issues and his stupid mother bought him a gun. 

parkland-kid had a history of mental health issues, horrible child hood

sante fe-couldnt even stand trial due to mental health.

uvalde-terrible childhood, kicked out of his own home in march, bullied

 

list goes on and on. time for psych evals for gun ownership. we already have red flag laws for people who enter mental health facilities, domestic abusers etc so let's go a little farther and require them. 

[ArdmoreRyno]

6 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

Sandy Hook-kid had mental issues and his stupid mother bought him a gun. 

parkland-kid had a history of mental health issues, horrible child hood

sante fe-couldnt even stand trial due to mental health.

uvalde-terrible childhood, kicked out of his own home in march, bullied

 

list goes on and on. time for psych evals for gun ownership. we already have red flag laws for people who enter mental health facilities, domestic abusers etc so let's go a little farther and require them. 

 

Just curious (I'm a LPC, which is a professional counselor... masters in clinical mental health)... how are we going to pay for that exactly? And what justifies a release of information as a therapist to the FBI? What is the cut off? PTSD? Anxiety? Severe depression? Personality disorders? 

 

 

[aristocrat]

2 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

 

Just curious (I'm a LPC, which is a professional counselor... masters in clinical mental health)... how are we going to pay for that exactly? And what justifies a release of information as a therapist to the FBI? What is the cut off? PTSD? Anxiety? Severe depression? Personality disorders? 

 

 

 

The buyer pays for it. We already have red flag laws in I think half the states that bar people from having guns if they are deemed unsafe owners.  I'm not a psychologist but pretty sure we have people smart enough to figure that side out.  All those issues you mentioned yes I'd imagine. 

[muppy]

you think discourse on chat boards can get testy.  I was flipping news channels earlier and CNN with their coverage in this shooting.  Can it be that This event, in the aftermath of what occurred in Buffalo where people are at breaking point?  The anger and disdain and blame flowing full force from media is to my ears anyway is  unprecedented.

 

If we could harness all the disgust and anger and sadness into a positive direction wouldn't that be just peachy.............

 

pfft. I am sooo cynical that in the age of the NRA and gun lobbies and political factions .....can ANY solutions be attempted to help halt these events from happening.  We indeed live within the perfect storm of gun availibility, mental illness, social media and the dark web....what could Possibly go wrong??

 

SMH There is one topic that Noone has brought up. And that is gun Security. If these firearms are going to be in so many homes...Lock them Up fcol...not the people who own the guns THE GUNS THEMSELVES. Then perhaps they wouldnt be available to be used in a despicable manner?

 

its one thought in a feeble attempt to offer something tangible to the discussion. 

 

Gun culture in the USA......Fear Culture.....fractured government gridlock. Yay. @-@