thebandit27 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 so civil disobedience has accomplished nothing in this country? is that what you think? honestly? an event like that would be all over the papers and tv. sure they might believe that fans would be unhappy, but to see it would be another thing altogether and really drive home the point. too much complacency on this board. we shouldn't be sitting around trying to convince ourselves that they won't move. if you don't want the Toronto group to get the team then it's time to act I didn't say that; what I said was that the NFL doesn't need to see your protest to understand that the fans in this area don't want the team to move. If you're saying that you think they'll allow the team to move anyway (by all accounts they won't), then what good does a protest do? I can just picture the owners sitting around... Robert Kraft: Anyone think Buffalo fans care if that team moves? Art Rooney: Yes, they care; they love that team Dan Snyder: Screw 'em, let's get the NFL in Toronto Jerry Richardson: Yeah, they probably don't care that much anyway Roger Goodell: Look everyone...they're picketing outside St. John Fisher at Bills' Training Camp! Dan Snyder: Oh my, I've changed my mind; let's let them stay...that guy in the Watkins jersey looks upset Are you kidding me? Browns' fans laid down in front of the moving trucks back when they lost their team...didn't matter. If you are convinced that they're bent on moving the team then your protest won't matter. The good news is that the NFL wants the team here, so all of this discussion is moot anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Then this would just drive home the point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 If Pegula or Golisano (or some other group) makes a competitive bid, I can't see the upside of going with the Toronto group, for the NFL, for the family and trust, for the team, and even for the Toronto group themselves. For the NFL: If the local bidder/mystery group wins, fans will be elated, more likely to reinvest in the team and buy tickets to show their support. Stadium is that much more realistic. Good vibes and $$. Good press from elated fans/region. If the Toronto group wins there will be a LARGE segment of fans that will revolt, complain, withdraw their support because they believe (right or wrong) that the group is just going to try to move the team. The story will not be "continuing the legacy of the Hall of Fame owner in a small market" it will be "is the team moving? can we trust them?" That is ugly and bad PR. For the family/trust: Local bidder/mystery group wins= you are heroes Toronto group wins= best case many people are uncertain/distrustful, worst case you look like villains For the team: local bidder/mystery group wins= more $$, more ticket sales, more support Toronto group wins= blackouts, loss of support (how much is uncertain but it would not be positive). Almost certainly it will be a constant distraction/headache For the Toronto group: They take over and come in immediately distrusted and reviled by a large segment (maybe the majority) of Bills fans. That's not a good feeling. They made it clear in the past they wanted to move the team. Now they apparently changed their tune but you can't put that toothpaste back in the tube. Bon Jovi is disliked by most Bills fans because of his affiliation with this group. I just don't see how anyone wins in the Toronto group scenario, given of course that the local bidder/mystery group makes a competitive bid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) If Pegula or Golisano (or some other group) makes a competitive bid, I can't see the upside of going with the Toronto group, for the NFL, for the family and trust, for the team, and even for the Toronto group themselves. For the NFL: If the local bidder/mystery group wins, fans will be elated, more likely to reinvest in the team and buy tickets to show their support. Stadium is that much more realistic. Good vibes and $$. Good press from elated fans/region. If the Toronto group wins there will be a LARGE segment of fans that will revolt, complain, withdraw their support because they believe (right or wrong) that the group is just going to try to move the team. The story will not be "continuing the legacy of the Hall of Fame owner in a small market" it will be "is the team moving? can we trust them?" That is ugly and bad PR. For the family/trust: Local bidder/mystery group wins= you are heroes Toronto group wins= best case many people are uncertain/distrustful, worst case you look like villains For the team: local bidder/mystery group wins= more $$, more ticket sales, more support Toronto group wins= blackouts, loss of support (how much is uncertain but it would not be positive). Almost certainly it will be a constant distraction/headache For the Toronto group: They take over and come in immediately distrusted and reviled by a large segment (maybe the majority) of Bills fans. That's not a good feeling. They made it clear in the past they wanted to move the team. Now they apparently changed their tune but you can't put that toothpaste back in the tube. Bon Jovi is disliked by most Bills fans because of his affiliation with this group. I just don't see how anyone wins in the Toronto group scenario, given of course that the local bidder/mystery group makes a competitive bid. All of your points are reasonably valid, but only in the short term. Billion dollar investors think long term. Think in the long term for a minute. What location gives the NFL and new ownership a larger and international market, and in turn makes them the most money? Pretty obviously that's Toronto. I'm not saying that is the choice they will make because quite frankly I have no freaking idea what their thought process is. But dismissing it as a unlikely happening is not thinking clearly in my opinion. Edited July 22, 2014 by CodeMonkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I know how we can get this settled. Someone tweet to Jessica Pegula to have her dad give JBJ a call and have him team up with Terry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) If the Toronto group is just going to put Bon Jovi's bid over and essentially buy him a toy to play with they won't have any real control or say in how it's run. Seems like a real fall from the original plan. Al Davis owned 47% of the Raiders when he died, so a conglomeration of others owned 53%, yet he had all the power and made all the decisions. Edited July 22, 2014 by TheFunPolice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 If we want to prove our worth as an NFL market how about seelling out games in December? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 If we want to prove our worth as an NFL market how about seelling out games in December? And raising ticket prices 60% or 70%. Neither is likely to happen, particularly when they suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) If the Toronto group is just going to put Bon Jovi's bid over and essentially buy him a toy to play with they won't have any real control or say in how it's run. Seems like a real fall from the original plan. Al Davis owned 47% of the Raiders when he died, so a conglomeration of others owned 53%, yet he had all the power and made all the decisions. The report from Toronto in the last few days is that JBJ has a lot more money than he was said to have, at least in so far as he can pony up over 30% of the total bid himself. That would allow him to be "controlling owner" which the NFL requires. The two Toronto guys agreed to this and JBJ would be the guy at all the meetings and the face of the franchise. They probably need that to get the NFL to even consider their bid (regardless of what franchise they may be bidding on). Frankly, that bit of information makes it exponentially LESS likely that they have any intention of keeping the team in Buffalo. Why would Tanenbaum and the Rogers family do this? Spend 400 million dollars, not have a team in Toronto, and not get much of the glory or stature associated with being an NFL owner. Edited July 22, 2014 by Kelly the Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) The report from Toronto in the last few days is that JBJ has a lot more money than he was said to have, at least in so far as he can pony up over 30% of the total bid himself. That would allow him to be "controlling owner" which the NFL requires. The two Toronto guys agreed to this and JBJ would be the guy at all the meetings and the face of the franchise. They probably need that to get the NFL to even consider their bid (regardless of what franchise they may be bidding on). Frankly, that bit of information makes it exponentially LESS likely that they have any intention of keeping the team in Buffalo. Why would Tanenbaum and the Rogers family do this? Spend 400 million dollars, not have a team in Toronto, and not get much of the glory or stature associated with being an NFL owner. Future expansion? When the time comes, they would already have experience in NFL ownership. And it's not like the team would lose money or go down in value, even in Buffalo. Edited July 22, 2014 by CodeMonkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 The report from Toronto in the last few days is that JBJ has a lot more money than he was said to have, at least in so far as he can pony up over 30% of the total bid himself. That would allow him to be "controlling owner" which the NFL requires. The two Toronto guys agreed to this and JBJ would be the guy at all the meetings and the face of the franchise. They probably need that to get the NFL to even consider their bid (regardless of what franchise they may be bidding on). Frankly, that bit of information make it exponentially LESS likely that they have any intention of keeping the team in Buffalo. Why would Tanenbaum and the Rogers family do this? Spend 400 million dollars, not have a team in Toronto, and not get much of the glory or stature associated with being an NFL owner. Exactly. They get nothing but a share of the profits the team makes, which split 3 ways is hardly worth all the investment and hassle. They make a LOT more money in their other ventures, so why would they tie up so much capital in something they get so little for? If we are supposed to believe that they are suddenly committed to NFL football in Buffalo why not put Pegula's bid over the top by paying for the stadium in exchange for a minority stake? That would garner them some great PR and fulfill their apparently new goal of supporting pro football in WNY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 And raising ticket prices 60% or 70%. Neither is likely to happen, particularly when they suck. The point is if we want to represent ourselves as this great fan base we should act like one. There is no excuse for that stadium to not be full every week. None Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 The point is if we want to represent ourselves as this great fan base we should act like one. There is no excuse for that stadium to not be full every week. None There are a lot of people willing to sit outside in the Buffalo winter in the snow, freezing rain, subzero temperatures, etc. I'm not sure it is reasonable to expect to come up with 70,000 of them though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 There are a lot of people willing to sit outside in the Buffalo winter in the snow, freezing rain, subzero temperatures, etc. I'm not sure it is reasonable to expect to come up with 70,000 of them though. They do in GB, New England, New York, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 They do in GB, New England, New York, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, etc... Cleveland, not so much. But the other 4? What do they have in common that Buffalo doesn't have? The Bills don't have the attendance because the team hasn't won. Whether that impacts the sale of the team, I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) If we want to prove our worth as an NFL market how about seelling out games in December? How about having a meaningful game in December? You don't think that not making the playoffs in a generation isn't a factor in customers not shelling out money for an outside December game and approaching holiday season? There are many reasons why the Toronto series was a disaster. The biggest reason was due to the garbage product. It's about the quality of the product, not the quality of the market. Edited July 22, 2014 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) Solider Field (Chicago): 61,500 Ralph Wilson Stadium (Buffalo): 73,079 Lincoln Financial Field (Philly): 69,144 Gillette Stadium (New England*): 68,756 Heinz Field (Pittsburgh): 65,500 So if the Bills have 4,317 tickets unsold for a game that a crowd of 68,756. That is a blackout, and we don't support our team. However, that is a sellout in Chicago, Pittsburgh and New England*, all of which are contenders in their divisions and conferences. In fact, if the Bills are 7,579 tickets away from a sellout EVERY game they would still sell out the Steelers stadium. Edited July 22, 2014 by TheFunPolice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) Cleveland, not so much. But the other 4? What do they have in common that Buffalo doesn't have? The Bills don't have the attendance because the team hasn't won. Whether that impacts the sale of the team, I don't know. Not to mention big versus small market (ignoring GB, they are just an anomaly) and an economy that is not in the toilet. Edited July 22, 2014 by CodeMonkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBILLSFAN Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 If Pegula or Golisano (or some other group) makes a competitive bid, I can't see the upside of going with the Toronto group, for the NFL, for the family and trust, for the team, and even for the Toronto group themselves. For the NFL: If the local bidder/mystery group wins, fans will be elated, more likely to reinvest in the team and buy tickets to show their support. Stadium is that much more realistic. Good vibes and $$. Good press from elated fans/region. If the Toronto group wins there will be a LARGE segment of fans that will revolt, complain, withdraw their support because they believe (right or wrong) that the group is just going to try to move the team. The story will not be "continuing the legacy of the Hall of Fame owner in a small market" it will be "is the team moving? can we trust them?" That is ugly and bad PR. For the family/trust: Local bidder/mystery group wins= you are heroes Toronto group wins= best case many people are uncertain/distrustful, worst case you look like villains For the team: local bidder/mystery group wins= more $$, more ticket sales, more support Toronto group wins= blackouts, loss of support (how much is uncertain but it would not be positive). Almost certainly it will be a constant distraction/headache For the Toronto group: They take over and come in immediately distrusted and reviled by a large segment (maybe the majority) of Bills fans. That's not a good feeling. They made it clear in the past they wanted to move the team. Now they apparently changed their tune but you can't put that toothpaste back in the tube. Bon Jovi is disliked by most Bills fans because of his affiliation with this group. I just don't see how anyone wins in the Toronto group scenario, given of course that the local bidder/mystery group makes a competitive bid. If the Toronto group is selected, I'd suspect there would be some sort of explanation, especially if the winning bid isn't something outrageously high. I think the trustees (and NFL) is keenly aware of the reception such a result would have on the WNY fan base and would want to justify the decision. In addition, and maybe it's already started, the new owners will need to sell themselves to the fans, I'm sure part of that process will be some sort of longer term commitment. I still believe that TP will get the team, but the latest "buzz" around Toronto is hard to ignore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 The point is if we want to represent ourselves as this great fan base we should act like one. There is no excuse for that stadium to not be full every week. None Kirby...I agree with most of what you say here and frankly maybe I shouldnt even comment on this as I am 3000 miles away....but I think that when the team hasnt made the playoffs in 15 years its a lot to ask them to sell out the stadium in December when the team is already thinking about the draft by that time (In the past) If they want a sold out stadium.....win some friggen games. If they even made the playoffs ONCE you would probably see that stadium sold out every season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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