A Question About The National Championship Game

[T master]

I watched the National Championship game the other night & was wondering if any of you may have had the same question cross your mind that crossed mine ?

 

As i was watching & saw Winston (AS A FRESHMAN) struggle at first & finally turn the game around late to eventually (as we all know) become the 2014 National Champs i thought exactly what & how much has changed from last year to this to put the Noles in the National Championship ?

 

Then i started to wonder that although EJ took the Noles to a bowl game & won why couldn't he have done what Winston had done & take them to the big game if he in fact had the same offensive scheme, same coordinators, same D & mostly the same players RIGHT ?

 

If most all the players at skill positions were the same along with the coaching staff & philosophy of the team what came up short to keep them from the big one ? The biggest thing that changed would be the personal at the most important position on the field QB !!

 

It's pretty amazing that one position would change so much from one year to the next . If that means any thing going forward with the Bills could this mean that we will always be just that much short of getting to the big game too ?

[YoloinOhio]

I watched the National Championship game the other night & was wondering if any of you may have had the same question cross your mind that crossed mine ?

 

As i was watching & saw Winston (AS A FRESHMAN) struggle at first & finally turn the game around late to eventually (as we all know) become the 2014 National Champs i thought exactly what & how much has changed from last year to this to put the Noles in the National Championship ?

 

Then i started to wonder that although EJ took the Noles to a bowl game & won why couldn't he have done what Winston had done & take them to the big game if he in fact had the same offensive scheme, same coordinators, same D & mostly the same players RIGHT ?

 

If most all the players at skill positions were the same along with the coaching staff & philosophy of the team what came up short to keep them from the big one ? The biggest thing that changed would be the personal at the most important position on the field QB !!

 

It's pretty amazing that one position would change so much from one year to the next . If that means any thing going forward with the Bills could this mean that we will always be just that much short of getting to the big game too ?

First, Winston is a RS Freshman, not a true Freshman, and a better QB now than EJ was then. He would be the #1 overall pick this year, if eligible. He is the best college QB prospect since Luck and RG3, both considered anomalies as far as being NFL ready. Second, 6 offensive coaches were replaced at FSU between EJ and Winston. And although one can always argue that the "players are the same," in college the level of improvement from one year to the next is huge, esp with WRs. These kids come in out of HS and their development is rapid from year to year. So different from the NFL, where there is a degree of development but for the most part NFL coaches don't have time to "teach" fundamentals - they want finished products and all they have time to trach is system, scheme and playbook. Kelvin Benjamin is one example, as a RS Freshman last year he had the dropsies big time. He was able to make an impact due to being pysically more imposing than a lot of the DBs in the ACC, but his progression between last year and this year was significant.

 

Overall, whether or not EJ won a NC at FSU doesn't mean anything about what he will accomplish in the NFL. The QBs in the NFL who have won SBs have not won NCs. Peyton Manning left UT and the year following they won the NC.

[John in Jax]

IMHO, JW didn't really do all that much for the comeback. Did he have anything to do with the turning point.....the KO return for TD? No. Did he throw a short pass, where Auburn defenders screwed up big time, and it turned into a long gainer? Yep. Did he toss a very short pass up high, so his 6'5" receiver could go up and get it? Yeah, he did.

 

In the big picture, yeah, he was at the helm for the comeback, so he gets the credit. But I have seen a LOT more done by QBs in late game heroics.

[FireChan]

IMHO, JW didn't really do all that much for the comeback. Did he have anything to do with the turning point.....the KO return for TD? No. Did he throw a short pass, where Auburn defenders screwed up big time, and it turned into a long gainer? Yep. Did he toss a very short pass up high, so his 6'5" receiver could go up and get it? Yeah, he did.

 

In the big picture, yeah, he was at the helm for the comeback, so he gets the credit. But I have seen a LOT more done by QBs in late game heroics.

 

True but over the year Jameis had a much more impressive body of work than EJ did in college.

[TXBILLSFAN]

Florida State has a significantly better supporting cast around Winston than they had around Manuel. Winston has played better, but it is by no means an apples to apples comparison.

[Hplarrm]

Despite all the things you listed about players, scheme, etc being the same, the simple fact is that it isn't the same. At that youthful age even a year of maturation can make a big difference.

 

As far as the elders like the coaches they are different and better than they were last year coaching EJ simply because they came close with EJ at the helm but failed.

 

Its makes a difference having been close to the top but failing and surviving. My guess is one big difference along with how the QB acts in the crunch is how the HC staff lead these young me in crunchtime. I would not be surprised if a big difference from last year to this year is that coaching staff had the experience of coming close but not getting there.

[FireChan]

Florida State has a significantly better supporting cast around Winston than they had around Manuel. Winston has played better, but it is by no means an apples to apples comparison.

 

Name 4 starters different from last year.

[mannc]

True but over the year Jameis had a much more impressive body of work than EJ did in college.

Speaking of Winston's body, did anyone else think he looked fat? I know he was wearing some sort of protective vest around his mid-section, but dude definitely looked like he had trouble pushing himself away from the dinner table over the holidays.

[Kellyto83TD]

Florida State has a significantly better supporting cast around Winston than they had around Manuel. Winston has played better, but it is by no means an apples to apples comparison.

 

Wait a minute. So you are saying FSU in ONE offseason completely upgraded its entire team? EJ graduated FSU last year, meaning SAME DAMN TEAM that Winston had.

 

It will be nice when fans quit making excuses for average QB's

[LB3]

 

 

Wait a minute. So you are saying FSU in ONE offseason completely upgraded its entire team? EJ graduated FSU last year, meaning SAME DAMN TEAM that Winston had.

 

It will be nice when fans quit making excuses for average QB's

 

Florida State returned 7 offensive starters and 4 defensive starters. That means half their starters left.

 

It will be nice when haters quit making false assumptions because they don't like and want to give up on a QB after one season.

 

 

 

Name 4 starters different from last year.

 

Starters that left:

 

Offense:

QB EJ Manuel

FB Lonnie Pryor

WR Rodney Smith

OT Menelik Watson

 

Defense:

DT Everett Dawkins

DT Anthony McCloud

DE Cornellius Carradine

LB Nick Moody

LB Vince Williams

CB Xavier Rhodes

DE Bjoern Werner

Edited January 9, 2014 by KikoSeeBallKikoGetBall

[cvanvol]

This Florida State team is one of the deepest and most talented teams in College Football history. They will have many first round picks and a huge number of future NFL players. The offensive line was better, the running backs were better and the receivers were better. Not to mention the defense was plain scary with a huge group of talent and future pros. At that age a year of maturation and hitting the weight room makes a HUGE difference. FSU was very good last year with EJ but the entire team was improved this year.

[YoloinOhio]

Speaking of Winston's body, did anyone else think he looked fat? I know he was wearing some sort of protective vest around his mid-section, but dude definitely looked like he had trouble pushing himself away from the dinner table over the holidays.

Heisman buffet circuit

 

Wait a minute. So you are saying FSU in ONE offseason completely upgraded its entire team? EJ graduated FSU last year, meaning SAME DAMN TEAM that Winston had.

 

It will be nice when fans quit making excuses for average QB's

 

IMHO, JW didn't really do all that much for the comeback. Did he have anything to do with the turning point.....the KO return for TD? No. Did he throw a short pass, where Auburn defenders screwed up big time, and it turned into a long gainer? Yep. Did he toss a very short pass up high, so his 6'5" receiver could go up and get it? Yeah, he did.

 

In the big picture, yeah, he was at the helm for the comeback, so he gets the credit. But I have seen a LOT more done by QBs in late game heroics.

Jamies looked far from Heisman quality in the 1st half. Without the late KOR by that Kermit kid, they lose. And things would be painted a bit differently today.

[Gugny]

Wait a minute. So you are saying FSU in ONE offseason completely upgraded its entire team? EJ graduated FSU last year, meaning SAME DAMN TEAM that Winston had.

 

It will be nice when fans quit making excuses for average QB's

Name 4 starters different from last year.

 

Please refer to Post #10. Have a nice day.

[Rubes]

Florida State has a significantly better supporting cast around Winston than they had around Manuel. Winston has played better, but it is by no means an apples to apples comparison.

 

A good friend of mine who is a diehard FS fan said the same thing when I asked him about Winston vs. Manuel and what was different this year.

[NoSaint]

 

 

A good friend of mine who is a diehard FS fan said the same thing when I asked him about Winston vs. Manuel and what was different this year.

 

and id say its not like last year was a trainwreck with EJ - they lost a game by 1 point, and they lost to a top ten team on their way to going 12-2, winning the ACC and a final top ten ranking. from a few of the posts in this thread you would think that EJ led them to a 7-5 record and the little caesars bowl

Edited January 9, 2014 by NoSaint

[C.Biscuit97]

and id say its not like last year was a trainwreck with EJ - they lost a game by 1 point, and they lost to a top ten team on their way to going 12-2, winning the ACC and a final top ten ranking. from a few of the posts in this thread you would think that EJ led them to a 7-5 record and the little caesars bowl

 

In fairness, Manuel did only go 4-0 in bowl games. He clearly was the problem.

[YoloinOhio]

Wait a minute. So you are saying FSU in ONE offseason completely upgraded its entire team? EJ graduated FSU last year, meaning SAME DAMN TEAM that Winston had.

 

It will be nice when fans quit making excuses for average QB's

Is your point that Jameis has a better chance to win a SB than EJ, because Jameis won a NC and EJ didn't? It would be much easier (and accurate) to just say that Jameis is a better NFL prospect, which he appears to be, moreso than anyone last year, this year or next year. I don't see what that means in terms of EJ's future success with the Bills. Perhaps Jamies will be the exception to the long list of college Heisman and NC winners who go on to do nothing in the NFL. Or maybe we should have hung on to Matt Leinart, Matt Flynn and VY while we had them!!! Edited January 9, 2014 by YoloInTheBlo

[Dr. Fong]

The difference? FSU dropped two games last year. Sure EJ takes some of the hit on those. Secondly Alabama took a miracle loss and wasn't in the title game. I think if they played FSU in the title game you wouldn't be talking about Jameis Winston's NC win.

[cvanvol]

The difference? FSU dropped two games last year. Sure EJ takes some of the hit on those. Secondly Alabama took a miracle loss and wasn't in the title game. I think if they played FSU in the title game you wouldn't be talking about Jameis Winston's NC win.

 

 

No....... that alabama defense was not up to snuff this year. Florida State would have rolled them.

[Rubes]

and id say its not like last year was a trainwreck with EJ - they lost a game by 1 point, and they lost to a top ten team on their way to going 12-2, winning the ACC and a final top ten ranking. from a few of the posts in this thread you would think that EJ led them to a 7-5 record and the little caesars bowl

 

To be completely fair, my question for my friend was, what did he think the main differences were between Manuel and Winston, and did he think Winston was truly that much better than Manuel.

 

His response was that he felt they were pretty equivalent, but perhaps Winston was slightly better at some things. He felt the main thing was that Winston had a significantly improved team around him, with some better players and others that had an additional year under their belts. But in terms of quarterbacking and talent, he felt they were pretty close.

 

His one comment about Manuel is that he had more of a tendency to make the occasional poor decision, the kind that made him go, "WTF?"

 

I did not see Winston play at all this year, until the title game. So while I don't have much of a database to go on, my impression coming away from that game is that Winston has a bit more talent running with the ball, but I didn't see much difference in arm strength or accuracy. At the same time, however, the one thing that stood out to me is that it *appeared* as though he and Manuel have a very similar running style -- that is, Winston runs "too high" and doesn't do a lot to protect his body, especially his legs. He's a big boy, but the main takeaway for me is that Winston may very well have the same experience as Manuel when he gets to the NFL -- if he doesn't learn to slide or get out of bounds, he's going to get crunched and his knees may become a problem.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Rubes

[Beerball]

The difference? FSU dropped two games last year. Sure EJ takes some of the hit on those. Secondly Alabama took a miracle loss and wasn't in the title game. I think if they played FSU in the title game you wouldn't be talking about Jameis Winston's NC win.

Apparently you didn't see them get dominated by an average Oklahoma team?

[flmike]

OK, I watched EJ for his whole college career and for Winston's so far. Here are the differences I noticed:

 

EJ was a running QB that had to pass sometimes. Ponder was a much better passer and Winston seems to be so far. Teams were always concerned about EJ taking off. He's not quick but covers ground and has good moves (He seems to have been told not to do that anymore which is asinine. Why did they pick him?)

 

The biggest loss of his career was against Oklahoma on the road and that was the defense's fault. DC Stoops is gone now and our defense looks a lot better.

 

The amazing recruiting class in EJ's senior year were sophomores, so while had good talent, Winston is blessed with more.

 

There is something about the FSU team that keeps them from starting games on fire. They always take a half to heat up and it almost cost them in the BCS game. I predicted this BTW.

 

Have a great day.

[Steve O]

First, Winston is a RS Freshman, not a true Freshman, and a better QB now than EJ was then. He would be the #1 overall pick this year, if eligible. He is the best college QB prospect since Luck and RG3, both considered anomalies as far as being NFL ready. Second, 6 offensive coaches were replaced at FSU between EJ and Winston. And although one can always argue that the "players are the same," in college the level of improvement from one year to the next is huge, esp with WRs. These kids come in out of HS and their development is rapid from year to year. So different from the NFL, where there is a degree of development but for the most part NFL coaches don't have time to "teach" fundamentals - they want finished products and all they have time to trach is system, scheme and playbook. Kelvin Benjamin is one example, as a RS Freshman last year he had the dropsies big time. He was able to make an impact due to being pysically more imposing than a lot of the DBs in the ACC, but his progression between last year and this year was significant.

 

Overall, whether or not EJ won a NC at FSU doesn't mean anything about what he will accomplish in the NFL. The QBs in the NFL who have won SBs have not won NCs. Peyton Manning left UT and the year following they won the NC.

To build on this point, the QB that led the 98 Vol's to the NC was Tee Martin (one of the "pre-Brady 6" picks)

[NoSaint]

OK, I watched EJ for his whole college career and for Winston's so far. Here are the differences I noticed:

 

EJ was a running QB that had to pass sometimes. Ponder was a much better passer and Winston seems to be so far. Teams were always concerned about EJ taking off. He's not quick but covers ground and has good moves (He seems to have been told not to do that anymore which is asinine. Why did they pick him?)

 

The biggest loss of his career was against Oklahoma on the road and that was the defense's fault. DC Stoops is gone now and our defense looks a lot better.

 

The amazing recruiting class in EJ's senior year were sophomores, so while had good talent, Winston is blessed with more.

 

There is something about the FSU team that keeps them from starting games on fire. They always take a half to heat up and it almost cost them in the BCS game. I predicted this BTW.

 

Have a great day.

 

appreciate the perspective here - i admittedly saw only bits here and there of FSU the last 6-7 years, but they are one of those teams thats always on the radar so i feel like i get good broad strokes assessments, even if i dont see enough to dig deep into the day to day comparisons of 2013 vs 2012 vs 2009. This, and the last long post at the end of the last page seem to fit together pretty well, and generally speaking match what my impressions of what is going on at FSU have been - a lot more than the "whoa is me we got EJ who destroyed a national championship team" sentiment from the first page.

[Nanker]

What time's kickoff?

[YoloinOhio]

OK, I watched EJ for his whole college career and for Winston's so far. Here are the differences I noticed:

 

EJ was a running QB that had to pass sometimes. Ponder was a much better passer and Winston seems to be so far. Teams were always concerned about EJ taking off. He's not quick but covers ground and has good moves (He seems to have been told not to do that anymore which is asinine. Why did they pick him?)

 

The biggest loss of his career was against Oklahoma on the road and that was the defense's fault. DC Stoops is gone now and our defense looks a lot better.

 

The amazing recruiting class in EJ's senior year were sophomores, so while had good talent, Winston is blessed with more.

 

There is something about the FSU team that keeps them from starting games on fire. They always take a half to heat up and it almost cost them in the BCS game. I predicted this BTW.

 

Have a great day.

I did not watch EJ in college and did watch some of Winston. What I heard though (maybe incorrectly) is that when EJ was a Freshman and Soph he ran a lot more than as a Jr and Sr. Is that true? I thought I read that he started out as a "running QB" and was a bigger threat to do so when he first started out but had an injury or something and got more cautious about that as he moved on through his FSU career, becoming more of a pocket QB who could be mobile as needed and run the read option. I also noticed when watching Winston that he seemed uncomfortable running and he wasn't naturally going to roll out when things break down, preferring to stay in the pocket. However, that last observation was based mainly on the NC game since in his previous games he rarely faced that kind of pressure.

[NewEra]

Winston throws WRs open. He's a much better passer than Ej at this point. I watched a bunch of fsu games this year and Winston made a believer out of me.

 

Ramius--- first off congrats on the NC! Secondly, what are your thoughts regarding Winston and if you have any comparisons between Manuel and Winston.

[flmike]

Maybe so, but EJ ran a ton in his senior year. He was inconsistent on passes, though. Some really nice, some real headscratchers. Hope he gets better.

[YoloinOhio]

Maybe so, but EJ ran a ton in his senior year. He was inconsistent on passes, though. Some really nice, some real headscratchers. Hope he gets better.

Exactly how I would describe his passing game his rookie season!

 

Winston throws WRs open. He's a much better passer than Ej at this point. I watched a bunch of fsu games this year and Winston made a believer out of me.

 

Ramius--- first off congrats on the NC! Secondly, what are your thoughts regarding Winston and if you have any comparisons between Manuel and Winston.

I don't think there is any true debate about who is the better NFL prospect. While that isn't a knock on EJ as I am a fan of his, Winston would be the #1 overall pick this year if he was eligible and that says it all

[flmike]

Winston does need another season of playing against top teams, though. He had trouble in the first halves of the Auburn, Florida, and BC games. He seems easily flustered and needs to show that he can lead w/o his team always picking him up. If you watched the NC game, you also noticed that you don't want him running...

[YoloinOhio]

Winston does need another season of playing against top teams, though. He had trouble in the first halves of the Auburn, Florida, and BC games. He seems easily flustered and needs to show that he can lead w/o his team always picking him up. If you watched the NC game, you also noticed that you don't want him running...

That is what I noticed...looked very forced, like he really didn't want to run but was doing so to not get blown out.

[YoloinOhio]

Jameis credits EJ for his development:

 

http://www.nhregister.com/sports/20140111/jameis-winston-credits-ej-manuel-for-help-along-the-way