A Few Thoughts About The Game, in no particular order.....

[boyst]

It just makes me shake my head that people pull up the thoughts they do and cast blame so easily. Kiko had a rough game and allowed for the TD. But the earlier one Leonhard completely missed the tackle and Kiko had no chance.

 

Why did we wait until the end of the 4th to go long? Have to think part of that is on EJ. And that someone said Graham was a reason we lost. The guy probably barely got in and then never touched the ball. I get that he could and should have been a factor more so then being invisible but EJ didn't spread the ball and took the easy throws.

 

How easy are we treading on the Dareus topic? Everyone here was calling him a lazy bust and in the football expert opinions he was a bad pick. Guess no one likes crow

 

McKelvin, have some crow there, too.

 

Gilmore, more crow.

 

Easley, Hogan, Johnson, Spiller...crow crow crow crow.

[Coach Tuesday]

It just makes me shake my head that people pull up the thoughts they do and cast blame so easily. Kiko had a rough game and allowed for the TD. But the earlier one Leonhard completely missed the tackle and Kiko had no chance.

 

Why did we wait until the end of the 4th to go long? Have to think part of that is on EJ. And that someone said Graham was a reason we lost. The guy probably barely got in and then never touched the ball. I get that he could and should have been a factor more so then being invisible but EJ didn't spread the ball and took the easy throws.

 

How easy are we treading on the Dareus topic? Everyone here was calling him a lazy bust and in the football expert opinions he was a bad pick. Guess no one likes crow

 

McKelvin, have some crow there, too.

 

Gilmore, more crow.

 

Easley, Hogan, Johnson, Spiller...crow crow crow crow.

 

I generally like your posts and value your football insight dude.

 

But at some point, you're going to have to cut bait with T.J. Graham. You were wrong about the guy - he's just not a football player. Unlike EJ, he's actually had a chance to make plays over almost two entire seasons, and it just hasn't happened. There is nothing to be ashamed of - the entire FO was wrong about him as well. But come on man, it's over. T.J. Graham is over.

[Bill from NYC]

To be fair, nobody said "bad"...

 

"Awful", however, was mentioned.

 

 

 

Agree with all of this...I'd like to make it clear that when I say EJ's going to be good, that's in my estimation based on what I've seen.

 

I should amend my statement to say that, based on what I've seen, I'm hopeful that EJ can develop into a franchise QB, since he shows many of the qualities that I believe a franchise QB needs to have.

 

Whether or not he will is entirely unsettled at this point in time.

 

Good post.

 

" Awful" was too harsh, You are correct. And I agree that EJ does have the talent necessary to be a possible franchise quarterback, and didn't say otherwise.

I expect rookie mistakes, and hope that hard work and good coaching can make the difference.

 

As for yesterday, he got very lucky that several of his passes were not picked off. I suppose this was a bright spot of a truly annoying game, even for our Bills.

[Orton's Arm]

At least for me the difference in determining whether a team is taking a step forward rather than being mired in the muck of mediocrity is the play of the qb. The Falcons are a very battered team, especially on both of their lines. What enabled them to come out of this game as winners was the differntial in qb play. Matt Ryan was able to play the whole field. He spread his passes around and he used all his receivers. On the other hand the Bills OC kept a tight reign on Manuel and limited his options to mostly the safe underneath stuff. Maybe the OC feels compelled to do so because EJ is not at the point where he can make quick reads and his accuracy in tight spaces is too erratic. EJ locks in on SJ at the expense of his other receivers. Woods has become the forgotten receiver. TJ Graham is a bust.

 

All teams have position vulnerabilities due to the nature of the cap that spreads talent out. Every team has unit vulnerabilities that can't be hidden. For the most part the difference between a successful franchise and an unsuccessful franchise is the quality of the qb play.

 

I still believe that EJ can be a franchise qb. But he has a way to go. This season was never about the playoffs. The roster was simply too inadequate for that marker. The most important issue for this team is finding out whether EJ is a legitimate franchise qb. I believe he is but I am not going to confidently state that I know it for sure.

 

Good post.

 

The questions the Bills need to ask themselves are these: "What has Manuel done to change our pre-draft assessment of him? What has he done to change the naysayers' predraft assessment of him?"

 

The naysayers pointed out there were certain things Manuel didn't do in college. Manuel was apparently never asked to go beyond his second read; and probably didn't go beyond his first read very often either. It was rare for him to throw to anything other than a wide-open receiver. His accuracy was inconsistent. His footwork was often questionable. He had great physical tools to be sure, but there's a lot he didn't prove at the college level. That's why so many experts had one or more (usually more) QBs ranked ahead of him in a very weak 2013 QB draft.

 

One of the naysayers' concerns has been at least partially addressed. Manuel will occasionally make a good throw to a tightly covered WR. This is extremely rare; but happens often enough for people to have some throws to point to; if pointing is what they want to do.

 

Other than that one thing, Manuel hasn't done anything to disprove the naysayers' main arguments against him. On the other hand, he hasn't disproved his supporters' arguments either; because one could point to almost any rookie QB and say, "Maybe he'll outgrow his present limitations."

 

But if a QB hasn't shown he can do a particular task in college; and if he hasn't shown he can do it in his rookie year in the NFL, odds are heavily against him ever learning to do that task. Manuel has several different things on his "hasn't yet shown" list--any one of which will cripple his ability to be a franchise QB if not corrected.

 

However much positive emotion the Bills may have felt about drafting Manuel in the first place--however good they may have felt about "having a plan" and making Manuel the cornerstone of that plan--they need to carefully weigh the probability of his failing against the chance he'll succeed. They need to ask themselves this question in as unbiased a way as possible; as though they were evaluating the QB situation of the Detroit Lions or Arizona Cardinals, or some other team in whose success they have no vested interest. Then, having asked this question, they need to decide whether to take advantage of the QB opportunities which may await them in the first round of the 2014 draft.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Good post.

 

The questions the Bills need to ask themselves are these: "What has Manuel done to change our pre-draft assessment of him? What has he done to change the naysayers' predraft assessment of him?"

 

The naysayers pointed out there were certain things Manuel didn't do in college. Manuel was apparently never asked to go beyond his second read; and probably didn't go beyond his first read very often either. It was rare for him to throw to anything other than a wide-open receiver. His accuracy was inconsistent. His footwork was often questionable. He had great physical tools to be sure, but there's a lot he didn't prove at the college level. That's why so many experts had one or more (usually more) QBs ranked ahead of him in a very weak 2013 QB draft.

 

One of the naysayers' concerns has been at least partially addressed. Manuel will occasionally make a good throw to a tightly covered WR. This is extremely rare; but happens often enough for people to have some throws to point to; if pointing is what they want to do.

 

Other than that one thing, Manuel hasn't done anything to disprove the naysayers' main arguments against him. On the other hand, he hasn't disproved his supporters' arguments either; because one could point to almost any rookie QB and say, "Maybe he'll outgrow his present limitations."

 

But if a QB hasn't shown he can do a particular task in college; and if he hasn't shown he can do it in his rookie year in the NFL, odds are heavily against him ever learning to do that task. Manuel has several different things on his "hasn't yet shown" list--any one of which will cripple his ability to be a franchise QB if not corrected.

 

However much positive emotion the Bills may have felt about drafting Manuel in the first place--however good they may have felt about "having a plan" and making Manuel the cornerstone of that plan--they need to carefully weigh the probability of his failing against the chance he'll succeed. They need to ask themselves this question in as unbiased a way as possible; as though they were evaluating the QB situation of the Detroit Lions or Arizona Cardinals, or some other team in whose success they have no vested interest. Then, having asked this question, they need to decide whether to take advantage of the QB opportunities which may await them in the first round of the 2014 draft.

OH HAI have a look at #1 overall pick Matthew Stafford's rookie year, mon frere. Let me remind you that Stafford had Calvin Johnson to throw to.

 

http://www.nfl.com/player/matthewstafford/79860/profile

 

Once you're done, stop the crusade. Please.

 

What Manuel has shown is that he is a rookie. A rookie who makes mistakes like a rookie. A rookie who has talent and displays it sometimes. A rookie who put his team in FG range for the win yesterday, which, if they had capitalized upon it, would make this tired "Manuel hasn't done anything to disprove the naysayers" bit moot for this week.

 

Luckily, they lost and clunky calculations get to live on in the public mind here. Jeeezum crow.

 

Manuel has much to prove. But he does not need to prove that he deserves to continue his growth path in the NFL.

[chris heff]

 

 

Good post.

 

The questions the Bills need to ask themselves are these: "What has Manuel done to change our pre-draft assessment of him? What has he done to change the naysayers' predraft assessment of him?"

 

The naysayers pointed out there were certain things Manuel didn't do in college. Manuel was apparently never asked to go beyond his second read; and probably didn't go beyond his first read very often either. It was rare for him to throw to anything other than a wide-open receiver. His accuracy was inconsistent. His footwork was often questionable. He had great physical tools to be sure, but there's a lot he didn't prove at the college level. That's why so many experts had one or more (usually more) QBs ranked ahead of him in a very weak 2013 QB draft.

 

One of the naysayers' concerns has been at least partially addressed. Manuel will occasionally make a good throw to a tightly covered WR. This is extremely rare; but happens often enough for people to have some throws to point to; if pointing is what they want to do.

 

Other than that one thing, Manuel hasn't done anything to disprove the naysayers' main arguments against him. On the other hand, he hasn't disproved his supporters' arguments either; because one could point to almost any rookie QB and say, "Maybe he'll outgrow his present limitations."

 

But if a QB hasn't shown he can do a particular task in college; and if he hasn't shown he can do it in his rookie year in the NFL, odds are heavily against him ever learning to do that task. Manuel has several different things on his "hasn't yet shown" list--any one of which will cripple his ability to be a franchise QB if not corrected.

 

However much positive emotion the Bills may have felt about drafting Manuel in the first place--however good they may have felt about "having a plan" and making Manuel the cornerstone of that plan--they need to carefully weigh the probability of his failing against the chance he'll succeed. They need to ask themselves this question in as unbiased a way as possible; as though they were evaluating the QB situation of the Detroit Lions or Arizona Cardinals, or some other team in whose success they have no vested interest. Then, having asked this question, they need to decide whether to take advantage of the QB opportunities which may await them in the first round of the 2014 draft.

Passive aggressive.

 

17 of 32 for 200 yards and 1 TD is just not getting it done. Teams don't need game manager QBs. What this team needs is Payton Manning, 22 of 35 for 403 yards and 2 TDs.

 

The Colts need to draft a QB in the first round.

[FireChan]

Passive aggressive.

 

17 of 32 for 200 yards and 1 TD is just not getting it done. Teams don't need game manager QBs. What this team needs is Payton Manning, 22 of 35 for 403 yards and 2 TDs.

 

The Colts need to draft a QB in the first round.

 

Colts went to the playoffs last year. Let me know when the Bills do that with a rookie QB please.

[chris heff]

 

 

Colts went to the playoffs last year. Let me know when the Bills do that with a rookie QB please.

Better coaching last year.

 

 

 

Colts went to the playoffs last year. Let me know when the Bills do that with a rookie QB please.

Better coaching last year.

[Orton's Arm]

OH HAI have a look at #1 overall pick Matthew Stafford's rookie year, mon frere. Let me remind you that Stafford had Calvin Johnson to throw to.

 

http://www.nfl.com/p...d/79860/profile

 

Once you're done, stop the crusade. Please.

 

What Manuel has shown is that he is a rookie. A rookie who makes mistakes like a rookie. A rookie who has talent and displays it sometimes. A rookie who put his team in FG range for the win yesterday, which, if they had capitalized upon it, would make this tired "Manuel hasn't done anything to disprove the naysayers" bit moot for this week.

 

Luckily, they lost and clunky calculations get to live on in the public mind here. Jeeezum crow.

 

Manuel has much to prove. But he does not need to prove that he deserves to continue his growth path in the NFL.

 

> Once you're done, stop the crusade. Please.

 

You and several other Manuel supporters feel the need to respond to just about every anti-Manuel post out there; often in as loud and obnoxious a manner as possible. Please don't lecture me about crusades.

 

Not that I'm trying to lump all Manuel supporters together. San Jose Bills Fan is a bright, articulate Manuel supporter; capable of conversing with the other side without turning it into a shouting match. The same could also be said of some other Manuel supporters, such as JohnC.

 

As for the Stafford example: Stafford had proved far more as a pocket passer in college than had Manuel. An accomplished college pocket passer will sometimes get off to a rocky start in the NFL--which is also something that could be said of Drew Brees.

 

If the Bills do take a QB in the 2014 draft, I'd want that new QB to sit and learn behind Manuel for at least one year, maybe two. That way Manuel would have more than just his rookie year in which to prove himself; without causing the Bills to waste a valuable opportunity to draft a franchise QB in 2014.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Edwards' Arm

[bobobonators]

Colts went to the playoffs last year. Let me know when the Bills do that with a rookie QB please.

 

Agreed. BUT, Colts also played in one of the weakest divisions last season. Titans/Jaguars were 2 of the worst teams last season and the Texans have been, and continue to be, nothing but paper tigers.

[FireChan]

Agreed. BUT, Colts also played in one of the weakest divisions last season. Titans/Jaguars were 2 of the worst teams last season and the Texans have been, and continue to be, nothing but paper tigers.

 

Texan's made the playoffs, right? Titans were barely under .500. Jags are absolutely awful, but put the Colts in the AFC East last year and they still get a WC.

[thewildrabbit]

My take is some of you are way overreacting over this rookie QB

 

A Rookie at QB. He didn't have a full pre season as he was injured and only played in the two first most inconsequential games. The result of this was not getting enough playing experience, time to learn to read defenses, get his timing down with his starting receiving corps. To me this was the first of several setbacks.

 

EJ played rather well the first five weeks IMHO. Going 2-2 in the first four games with a close game against the Patriots in week one. Then, If I'm not mistaken the score in that Browns game was 24-17 until EJ left with an injury. That knee injury was another setback for this rookie QB missing another four games of learning experience.

 

Both WR's Johnson and Woods were listed at probable for this weeks game, meaning that they both were still not 100% healthy.

 

 

Like JohnC stated, this season was never about the playoffs considering the other players on the roster. It was about learning if this rookie QB can become a top QB. Again, look what he has done with less talent around him then the NY Jets Geno Smith. who has 8 TD's, 19 INT's, 8 fumbles = 27 turnovers. The Jets have 3 first round, and a 2nd round pick on their O line. 1st & 2nd round picks at WR.

 

EJ 8 games, 9 TD, 4 INT's 4 fumbles

 

I love EJ as I see pocket presence when he gets decent protection. I see leadership. I see the ability to carry the entire offense...some games. I see a QB that knows how to run a 2 min drill, and could have won that game yesterday if not for some bad luck with 2 different receivers fumbling the ball away on two consecutive series.

Edited December 2, 2013 by FeartheLosing

[bobobonators]

Texan's made the playoffs, right? Titans were barely under .500. Jags are absolutely awful, but put the Colts in the AFC East last year and they still get a WC.

 

Titans were 6-10..that's far enough under .500 to be bad. Jags were worst team in NFL. Texans in AFC East may have not made playoffs. There's a reason why the Texans stroll through regular season year after year and then get HAMMERED in the playoffs year after year.

 

2 wins vs. Jags; split titans and split colts (at worst) - an AUTOMATIC 4 wins off the bat every season for past few years (except for this season).

 

That division has been a 2-team division for years. There's a huge drop-off between colts/texans and the rest. neither miami, jets, bills have been as bad as the Jags.

Edited December 2, 2013 by bobobonators

[boyst]

 

 

I generally like your posts and value your football insight dude.

 

But at some point, you're going to have to cut bait with T.J. Graham. You were wrong about the guy - he's just not a football player. Unlike EJ, he's actually had a chance to make plays over almost two entire seasons, and it just hasn't happened. There is nothing to be ashamed of - the entire FO was wrong about him as well. But come on man, it's over. T.J. Graham is over.

it is nothing to do with Graham. Its about the entire team. No one is criticizing many other players on this team who deserve it before Graham. That is what frustrates me. I am not saying he is over. I am not going to give up on any Bills player. The guy hasn't had a chance to do anything and hasn't made an opportunities to earn a chance to do so. He hasn't deserved the whipping he has got. Other players, Bradham and Aaron williams are great examples of how fans react to teams. No one says anything about Bradham underachieving. Then everyone jumps on AWilliams the first time he messes up at a new position.

 

We are fans and we take our team way too seriously. We don't all stop to remember that.

[FireChan]

Titans were 6-10..that's far enough under .500 to be bad. Jags were worst team in NFL. Texans in AFC East may have not made playoffs. There's a reason why the Texans stroll through regular season year after year and then get HAMMERED in the playoffs year after year.

 

2 wins vs. Jags; split titans and split colts (at worst) - an AUTOMATIC 4 wins off the bat every season for past few years (except for this season).

 

That's fine, but you're acting like the Colts wouldn't have beaten the Phins and Jets twice last year, as well as have a good shot to split with the Pats. I know the Texans are the perennial soft team that goes to the playoffs to get crushed.

[Coach Tuesday]

> Once you're done, stop the crusade. Please.

 

You and several other Manuel supporters feel the need to respond to just about every anti-Manuel post out there; often in as loud and obnoxious a manner as possible. Please don't lecture me about crusades.

 

Not that I'm trying to lump all Manuel supporters together. San Jose Bills Fan is a bright, articulate Manuel supporter; capable of conversing with the other side without turning it into a shouting match. The same could also be said of some other Manuel supporters, such as JohnC.

 

As for the Stafford example: Stafford had proved far more as a pocket passer in college than had Manuel. An accomplished college pocket passer will sometimes get off to a rocky start in the NFL--which is also something that could be said of Drew Brees.

 

If the Bills do take a QB in the 2014 draft, I'd want that new QB to sit and learn behind Manuel for at least one year, maybe two. That way Manuel would have more than just his rookie year in which to prove himself; without causing the Bills to waste a valuable opportunity to draft a franchise QB in 2014.

 

Stafford completed 57.1% of his passes over three years at Georgia. There were HUGE questions about whether his game would translate to the NFL, or whether he was just a guy with a big arm.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Stafford completed 57.1% of his passes over three years at Georgia. There were HUGE questions about whether his game would translate to the NFL, or whether he was just a guy with a big arm.

Please, stop getting the point.

[dave mcbride]

Stafford completed 57.1% of his passes over three years at Georgia. There were HUGE questions about whether his game would translate to the NFL, or whether he was just a guy with a big arm.

It's probably wiser to compare their senior years only. They were pretty much equals as seniors. Manuel had a higher completion rate but Stafford had a slightly better ypa and td/int ratio.

 

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/ej-manuel-1.html

 

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/matthew-stafford-1.html

[Orton's Arm]

Stafford completed 57.1% of his passes over three years at Georgia. There were HUGE questions about whether his game would translate to the NFL, or whether he was just a guy with a big arm.

 

Stafford was taken first overall. Prior to the draft, I don't recall very many (any?) experts suggesting that this would be a reach.

 

Below is a quote from NFL.com's pre-draft analysis of him:

 

*******************

Quick to scan the field and go through his progressions . . .

 

Consistent with excellent accuracy to all levels of the field . . .

 

Has good deep accuracy and trajectory . . .

 

Aggressive, but has developed into a smarter passer over his career and will take what the defense gives him by dropping to his second and third options . . .

************

 

There were some negatives mentioned as well; most notably concerns about his footwork and accuracy on crossing routes. However, the overall picture presented was of a pro-style college QB who'd demonstrated a lot of what you'd want to see from a franchise NFL QB. His ability to process information quickly, and go to his second and third reads, was an especially important part of that evaluation.

[Al Cowlings]

Not exactly a major synopsis of the game, but it comes expected with these posts. No mention of the horrific defense-other than Gilmore? Everyone's savior Kiko was awful. He over pursues and guesses on everything. Not a very bright guy, and that's who is calling the defense on the field? This coaching staff is a nightmare, but what do ypou expect when you are hiring a staff from Syracuse of all places. Can we stop fretting about Pettine getting a head coaching job? Take a look at Buffalo's rankings on team defense. Sure, they have a lot of sacks, because all he does is blitz. Gets burned quite a bit and they can't stop the run. But hey, they are 4-8 and playing meaningful December football, right?

[dave mcbride]

Stafford was taken first overall. Prior to the draft, I don't recall very many (any?) experts suggesting that this would be a reach.

 

Below is a quote from NFL.com's pre-draft analysis of him:

 

*******************

Quick to scan the field and go through his progressions . . .

 

Consistent with excellent accuracy to all levels of the field . . .

 

Has good deep accuracy and trajectory . . .

 

Aggressive, but has developed into a smarter passer over his career and will take what the defense gives him by dropping to his second and third options . . .

************

 

There were some negatives mentioned as well; most notably concerns about his footwork and accuracy on crossing routes. However, the overall picture presented was of a pro-style college QB who'd demonstrated a lot of what you'd want to see from a franchise NFL QB. His ability to process information quickly, and go to his second and third reads, was an especially important part of that evaluation.

Grist for your mill from walterfootball.com (my favorite draft site). Interesting stuff. The analysis of Stafford's weaknesses and strengths has proven to be true.. We'll see about Manuel, but they do say that he certainly has the talent. As for why the Bills drafted him in the first, many thought that the Eagles loved his potential and would take him. I'm guessing they're happy with the QB they have now.

 

http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2009mstafford.php

 

http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2013emanuel.php

[GunnerBill]

I thought Kiko was poor yesterday too. I can't remember which of the Atlanta touchdown runs it was (think it was the first) where he over pursued on a gap. He has done that from time to time in the running game, but this kid is still a good football player who has had a good rookie year. I thought our run defense had been gradually improving in recent games but it was dreaful yesterday.

Edited December 2, 2013 by GunnerBill

[Orton's Arm]

Grist for your mill from walterfootball.com (my favorite draft site). Interesting stuff. The analysis of Stafford's weaknesses and strengths has proven to be true.. We'll see about Manuel, but they do say that he certainly has the talent. As for why the Bills drafted him in the first, many thought that the Eagles loved his potential and would take him. I'm guessing they're happy with the QB they have now.

 

http://walterfootbal...09mstafford.php

 

http://walterfootbal...2013emanuel.php

 

Thanks for the links. From the Stafford profile:

 

**************

Stafford is a top-notch prospect for the NFL. He is a No. 1 pick caliber player. His ability to read defenses along with his natural instincts will allow him to be a starter right off the bat. Stafford's big arm is one that is rare to come by and it helps him to be a big play type of QB. Stafford has a bright future ahead of him and with good NFL coaching he can become an elite type quarterback. Stafford's biggest need of improvement is his mental clock and awareness of the pass rush, with coaching he can develop this and become a franchise quarterback.

**************

 

From Manuel's profile:

 

*********

Manuel's elite arm strength and athleticism gives him all the physical potential an NFL team could ask for. However, he has major issues as a passer and has never developed into a high first-round pick despite the athletic ability to be that good. . . . .

 

NFL sources who watch Florida State closely have told WalterFootball.com that Manuel is not a natural pocket passer. They don't feel he is as accurate as his completion percentage indicates. . . .

 

The scheme that the Seminoles run also came under criticism. The view is that it is extremely basic and does not have Manuel well-prepared to run an NFL offense. Our sources believe that Manuel too often looks to run when his first-read is covered rather than quickly looking to his second and third options. . . .

 

Manuel is going to need a lot of work at the next level on the practice field and in the film room before he is ready to be a starter. There is no doubt that Manuel has the athletic skill set to be a special player, but he will require developmental time in the NFL.

 

It isn't out of the question for a team to reach on him late in the first round or for Manuel to fall to the fourth round. His stock is extremely fluid.

************

Edited December 2, 2013 by Edwards' Arm

[Russ 'Em]

you mean Dareus, half of the defensive front 4 that allowed Steven Jackson and some no name RBs to run all over is today?

 

Gilmore and Williams that allowed yards to rack up for Gonzo and White all game?

 

Searcy is lucky in spots. He's not a starting Safety. Not even close. Other than his lucky ints, he's not very good. Average at best.

 

Byrd... Your still incorrect. He was not drafted by Buddy. He was drafted by Juron and Russ Brandon.

 

Mario. Your missing the point. Nix didn't draft him. He was a FA. A very good one. Considered the best available pass rusher in a long time on the open market. It's not a surprise that Mario would be good. He was the 1st overall draft. Anyone who has ever watched the Texans could tell you that Mario was a good player. Nix didn't find anyone special that we didn't already know about.

 

The fact is, that this year many if these players have played well, or better than expected but it's nothing guaranteed long term either. Just as much as you point out that these players working out well (Williams and Dareus) Anyone can say they are getting lucky. Anyone remember Anderson on Cleveland years ago? Played great one season and then was never heard of after that. Who's to say Dareus and Williams don't regress? Who's to even say they are playing well? Turnovers and sacks are great but that doesn't mean they are doing their job. Dareus is still part of the line that hemorrhage stone of rushing yards. Williams is still part of the secondary that hemorrhages tons of passing yards.

 

Are you really trying to prove your point using Derek Anderson?

 

Look at your display name, are you forgetting who hired, and then was forced to fire that loser Chan Gailey? Buddy Nix brought in FA RT Cornell Green at 2 mill per in 2010, only to see this player benched and cut by week 5 of that year. Name me the great free agents brought in for 2010?

 

This exact same scenario happened this season with LG Colin Brown and his backup at guard Sam Young. both were benched and eventually cut and gone from the team around / after week 5. The guy brought in to be the backup center is now the starting LG, and god forbid any of the starters go down because all that's left is waiver wire players recently picked up. It was probably Nix who assured Whaley that Brown & Young would be serviceable.

 

Buddy Nix and his half-assed philosophy of guards are a dime a dozen has screwed this team time and again, and this year is no different with inferior play at LG.

 

Nix and his stupidity couldn't find a pass rusher in the draft during his tenure with the Bills, so he signed the most expensive FA DE ever. If Nix was a scout that found Byrd, he was also a scout that found Maybin!!This move of Super Mario while good, also handcuffed the team with other free agents and Bills players they could sign. More on this to come next year when he will cost the team 18 mill per.

 

I could go on and on about Buddy Nix and his screw ups, like allowing the move to the 4-3 to 3-4 and back to a 4-3. Then allowing the hiring of DC George Edwards, and Dave Wannstedt. This man wouldn't know a decent HC, DC, OG if they came up and kicked him in his moronic rear end.

 

This franchise regressed from a 6-10 team that was supposedly "not that far away" to a 4-10 team, and his regime never even equaled the stupidity of Dick Jauron, and his 7-9 teams. How many of the 27 draft pick the last 3 years have become pro bowlers? I'm pretty darn happy Nix is history.

 

You do know that our offensive line is a big reason why we are 3rd in the league in rushing and in the top five in completion percentage when blitzed right?

[HurlyBurly51]

1) Leodis McKelvin is a pleasure to watch. I am the very first to admit that I thought little of him before this season. This man can cover.

 

12) I take it back. Gilmore IS a "shutdown corner." His stupid, ill timed penalties, as well as his poor coverage helps to shut down the Bills ability to win football games.

 

15) GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Another bad game for Gilmore - shocker! I don't like seeing my shutdown corners doing 360's in coverage out there There's always next year.

[Russ 'Em]

I thought Kiko was poor yesterday too. I can't remember which of the Atlanta touchdown runs it was (think it was the first) where he over pursued on a gap. He has done that from time to time in the running game, but this kid is still a good football player who has had a good rookie year. I thought our run defense had been gradually improving in recent games but it was dreaful yesterday.

 

The "over pursuit" everyone is talking about wasn't, in fact. Kiko was playing his gap responsibility. Moats had the gap the play went through but got caught up in traffic trying to fight over a guard or center. Yeah Kiko maybe could have made a better play there, but this defense keeps preaching play your own responsibility and don't over extend. You guys do know that the running back we had to defend today was Steven Jackson right? Just because he was hurt for a couple games this year, people forget how good this guy is.

[thebandit27]

You do know that our offensive line is a big reason why we are 3rd in the league in rushing and in the top five in completion percentage when blitzed right?

 

Run...run now while you still can. You are about to be inundated with faulty logic and PFF "Adnvanced Stats" about Colin Brown laced with irreverence in the face of any fact presented that doesn't jive with the predetermined agenda.

 

Save your breath for someone that's reasonable enough to discuss this issue; you can thank me later.

 

 

 

The "over pursuit" everyone is talking about wasn't, in fact. Kiko was playing his gap responsibility. Moats had the gap the play went through but got caught up in traffic trying to fight over a guard or center. Yeah Kiko maybe could have made a better play there, but this defense keeps preaching play your own responsibility and don't over extend. You guys do know that the running back we had to defend today was Steven Jackson right? Just because he was hurt for a couple games this year, people forget how good this guy is.

 

Kiko did overrun his gap on that play; wasn't his best game. That doesn't mean he isn't a very good LB already.

 

And you're right; the other guys get paid too.

[oman128]

EJ is another Cam Newton its going to take another 2 year for him to have this offense running smooth !

[yungmack]

I have been critical of EJ to the point that I've stated the Bills need to very seriously consider drafting a QB in the first round this spring. However, whatever his shortcomings are, EJ was NOT the problem yesterday. When the O puts up 31 points and is in the position to add more at the end of the 4th quarter, how can the critics pound on EJ? Yesterday, the heart of the loss was squarely on the D, on Chandler, on Stevie. And toss in some horrible, horrible calls by the refs near the end. They simply cannot be loose with their D calls for the entire game then suddenly start calling them strict. The calls on A. Williams and Robey were horrifically bad and game killers.

[Russ 'Em]

Pettines D is pretty aggressive. When it works its awesome and people love the sacks/interceptions it creates. When he guesses wrong, holes in the defense get exposed. Jim Leonhard whiffing on the second TD run was a prime example. Steven Jackson saw the match up he wanted to exploit and headed right at leonhard.

[fridge]

Steven Jackson saw the match up he wanted to exploit and headed right at leonhard.

 

Which is shocking, because somehow Leonhard managed to miss him ENTIRELY!

[JohnC]

 

 

Thanks for the links. From the Stafford profile:

 

**************

Stafford is a top-notch prospect for the NFL. He is a No. 1 pick caliber player. His ability to read defenses along with his natural instincts will allow him to be a starter right off the bat. Stafford's big arm is one that is rare to come by and it helps him to be a big play type of QB. Stafford has a bright future ahead of him and with good NFL coaching he can become an elite type quarterback. Stafford's biggest need of improvement is his mental clock and awareness of the pass rush, with coaching he can develop this and become a franchise quarterback.

**************

 

From Manuel's profile:

 

*********

Manuel's elite arm strength and athleticism gives him all the physical potential an NFL team could ask for. However, he has major issues as a passer and has never developed into a high first-round pick despite the athletic ability to be that good. . . . .

 

NFL sources who watch Florida State closely have told WalterFootball.com that Manuel is not a natural pocket passer. They don't feel he is as accurate as his completion percentage indicates. . . .

 

The scheme that the Seminoles run also came under criticism. The view is that it is extremely basic and does not have Manuel well-prepared to run an NFL offense. Our sources believe that Manuel too often looks to run when his first-read is covered rather than quickly looking to his second and third options. . . .

 

Manuel is going to need a lot of work at the next level on the practice field and in the film room before he is ready to be a starter. There is no doubt that Manuel has the athletic skill set to be a special player, but he will require developmental time in the NFL.

 

It isn't out of the question for a team to reach on him late in the first round or for Manuel to fall to the fourth round. His stock is extremely fluid.

************

 

 

Thanks for the links. From the Stafford profile:

 

**************

Stafford is a top-notch prospect for the NFL. He is a No. 1 pick caliber player. His ability to read defenses along with his natural instincts will allow him to be a starter right off the bat. Stafford's big arm is one that is rare to come by and it helps him to be a big play type of QB. Stafford has a bright future ahead of him and with good NFL coaching he can become an elite type quarterback. Stafford's biggest need of improvement is his mental clock and awareness of the pass rush, with coaching he can develop this and become a franchise quarterback.

**************

 

From Manuel's profile:

 

*********

Manuel's elite arm strength and athleticism gives him all the physical potential an NFL team could ask for. However, he has major issues as a passer and has never developed into a high first-round pick despite the athletic ability to be that good. . . . .

 

NFL sources who watch Florida State closely have told WalterFootball.com that Manuel is not a natural pocket passer. They don't feel he is as accurate as his completion percentage indicates. . . .

 

The scheme that the Seminoles run also came under criticism. The view is that it is extremely basic and does not have Manuel well-prepared to run an NFL offense. Our sources believe that Manuel too often looks to run when his first-read is covered rather than quickly looking to his second and third options. . . .

 

Manuel is going to need a lot of work at the next level on the practice field and in the film room before he is ready to be a starter. There is no doubt that Manuel has the athletic skill set to be a special player, but he will require developmental time in the NFL.

 

It isn't out of the question for a team to reach on him late in the first round or for Manuel to fall to the fourth round. His stock is extremely fluid.

************

 

The WaltersFootball evaluation you cited is a terrific evaluation of him as a prospect. What made him appealing were his pysical tools and his personality and character traits. That's the essence of why he was such an intriguing prospect and also a risky prospect. Not one qb prospect in last year's draft was a clean prospect. In all probability no qb prospect in this year's draft is a clean (guaranteed) prospect. The best qb I have seen this year in the college ranks is FSU's Winston. He is not eligible to enter the draft this year and he has some serious legal issues hovering over him.

 

Andrew Luck is a once in a generation qb. So let's not bother using him as a template to compare qbs to. Russell Wilson is another special prospect in that his on the field maturity is already at an elite level. Kaepernick/Griffin/Newton/Foles were not instantly finished products. All of them are undergoing the challenges of learning how to play. That's the frustrating nature of the learning curve that can't be avoided. Since you can't avoid it my recommendation to you is don't allow yourself to be spooked to the point of prematurely pulling the plug on a prospect. The irony that you haven't stated is that the struggles that EJ is going through are the same struggles that other future qb prospects are going to endure. Why start the developmental process and then start the same process with another fresher prospect??? That makes no sense to me.

 

Next offseason the Bills shouldn't use a high draft pick for another qb. In my view that would be foolish. What they need to do is do everything they can to put EJ in a position to succeed. They need to bolster the OL and they need to acquire a playmaking TE. The model for qb development that we should copy is the model that the Steelers used when they drafted Roethlisberger. They had a terrific OL and emphasized the running game and kept the pressure off of their raw qb. Steadily Big Ben got better and better to the point that he is now bordering on being an elite qb.

 

If you put things in perspective you have to acknowledge that EJ has shown enough ability to allow you to think that he can be a franchise qb. The inconsistency he is exhibiting is the norm for young qbs. Is he going to be an elite qb? Absolutely not! He doesn't have the natural impeccable accuracy that those types of special qbs possess.

 

This organization has no choice other than place their chips on the qb they brought to the table. Gambles pay off if you play the cards you are holding; not if you too soon throw the cards on table and walk away. If you want guarantees then you shouldn't have walked into the casino,

[JPS]

When a player often comes up small at big moments, he is a small player. SJ is a small player.

I love this post. Perfect!

[Orton's Arm]

The WaltersFootball evaluation you cited is a terrific evaluation of him as a prospect. What made him appealing were his pysical tools and his personality and character traits. That's the essence of why he was such an intriguing prospect and also a risky prospect. Not one qb prospect in last year's draft was a clean prospect. In all probability no qb prospect in this year's draft is a clean (guaranteed) prospect. The best qb I have seen this year in the college ranks is FSU's Winston. He is not eligible to enter the draft this year and he has some serious legal issues hovering over him.

 

Andrew Luck is a once in a generation qb. So let's not bother using him as a template to compare qbs to. Russell Wilson is another special prospect in that his on the field maturity is already at an elite level. Kaepernick/Griffin/Newton/Foles were not instantly finished products. All of them are undergoing the challenges of learning how to play. That's the frustrating nature of the learning curve that can't be avoided. Since you can't avoid it my recommendation to you is don't allow yourself to be spooked to the point of prematurely pulling the plug on a prospect. The irony that you haven't stated is that the struggles that EJ is going through are the same struggles that other future qb prospects are going to endure. Why start the developmental process and then start the same process with another fresher prospect??? That makes no sense to me.

 

Next offseason the Bills shouldn't use a high draft pick for another qb. In my view that would be foolish. What they need to do is do everything they can to put EJ in a position to succeed. They need to bolster the OL and they need to acquire a playmaking TE. The model for qb development that we should copy is the model that the Steelers used when they drafted Roethlisberger. They had a terrific OL and emphasized the running game and kept the pressure off of their raw qb. Steadily Big Ben got better and better to the point that he is now bordering on being an elite qb.

 

If you put things in perspective you have to acknowledge that EJ has shown enough ability to allow you to think that he can be a franchise qb. The inconsistency he is exhibiting is the norm for young qbs. Is he going to be an elite qb? Absolutely not! He doesn't have the natural impeccable accuracy that those types of special qbs possess.

 

This organization has no choice other than place their chips on the qb they brought to the table. Gambles pay off if you play the cards you are holding; not if you too soon throw the cards on table and walk away. If you want guarantees then you shouldn't have walked into the casino,

 

> They need to bolster the OL and they need to acquire a playmaking TE.

 

Granted. But the Bills will probably lose at least two more games (Tampa Bay and New England), with additional losses possible. They'll likely have a top-10 pick. You don't use a pick like that on an OG or even a TE.

 

> Steadily Big Ben got better and better to the point that he is now bordering on being an elite qb.

 

The Jets used a similar model with Mark Sanchez. What you've described works great when you've chosen the right QB. If you start off with the assumption that Manuel is the right quarterback, everything you've written flows naturally. But the only way I could convince myself to share in that assumption would be to turn a blind eye to the things he hasn't shown. Or to pretend that most QBs can learn those things if given sufficient development time.

 

> He doesn't have the natural impeccable accuracy that those types of special qbs possess.

 

Agreed. In that sense he's similar to Fitz. Manuel's physical tools are worlds better than Fitz's. On the other hand, Fitz was very good at quickly and accurately processing large amounts of on-field information. There is no reason other than hope to believe that Manuel will develop a similar ability in the NFL, given that he showed no signs of it in college. Manuel's most likely ceiling is roughly at Fitz's level; with both quarterbacks possessing similar levels of accuracy, and with Manuel's physical tools offsetting Fitz's advantage in information processing.

 

> This organization has no choice other than place their chips on the qb they brought to the table.

 

On the contrary: they do have a choice. There is no rule against taking first round QBs two years in a row. If anyone within the organization questions the strategy, the response could be, "a typical first round QB chosen outside the top 5 has a 30% chance of working out. It's absolutely essential to get the QB position nailed down, so we're giving ourselves two chances to do that. Besides, we think the world of [QB X]."

[K-9]

> They need to bolster the OL and they need to acquire a playmaking TE.

 

Granted. But the Bills will probably lose at least two more games (Tampa Bay and New England), with additional losses possible. They'll likely have a top-10 pick. You don't use a pick like that on an OG or even a TE.

 

> Steadily Big Ben got better and better to the point that he is now bordering on being an elite qb.

 

The Jets used a similar model with Mark Sanchez. What you've described works great when you've chosen the right QB. If you start off with the assumption that Manuel is the right quarterback, everything you've written flows naturally. But the only way I could convince myself to share in that assumption would be to turn a blind eye to the things he hasn't shown. Or to pretend that most QBs can learn those things if given sufficient development time.

 

Other than consistency, which is chiefly a function of experience, please tell us what he hasn't shown?

 

Let me guess: mental bandwidth?

 

Onward, Christian soldier. The Knights Templar would be proud.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Orton's Arm]

Other than consistency, which is chiefly a function of experience, please tell us what he hasn't shown?

 

Let me guess: mental bandwidth?

 

Onward, Christian soldier. The Knights Templar would be proud.

 

GO BILLS!!!

You are supposedly one of the more knowledgeable people here. If that's true, why is it that your posts typically contribute zero or negative amounts of insight or wisdom to any given discussion?

[K-9]

You are supposedly one of the more knowledgeable people here. If that's true, why is it that your posts typically contribute zero or negative amounts of insight or wisdom to any given discussion?

 

I don't think your posts on this particular subject merit much insight. Especially when you pull things out of the air and attempt to make it into whole cloth.

 

Why is it you avoid answering my requests for additional insight from you? I asked for your explanation on how to develop two franchise QBs simultaneously and you didn't bother to get back on that. I ask for an expansion on what you haven't seen from EJ Manuel other than consistency, and I am met, yet again, by your incessant and tired stock response of being a poster that doesn't add "insight."

 

You pronounced Manuel a bust six games into his career. One that has been interrupted twice by injury and extended absence from the field play. And you have the nerve call out others for lack of insight? Give me a break.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[JohnC]

 

 

> They need to bolster the OL and they need to acquire a playmaking TE.

 

Granted. But the Bills will probably lose at least two more games (Tampa Bay and New England), with additional losses possible. They'll likely have a top-10 pick. You don't use a pick like that on an OG or even a TE.

 

I didn't suggest that they should use a first round pick on an OG or even TE. There is also a free agent market to draw from for the guard position. You can get a veteran competent guard who is solid instead of relying on bargain basement and bottom feeding talent. I wouldn't be adverse to using a first round pick on an OT. Pears is nothing more than pedestrian. If there was a dynamic TE prospect I would have no problem trading down and taking an impact TE.

 

> Steadily Big Ben got better and better to the point that he is now bordering on being an elite qb.

 

The Jets used a similar model with Mark Sanchez. What you've described works great when you've chosen the right QB. If you start off with the assumption that Manuel is the right quarterback, everything you've written flows naturally. But the only way I could convince myself to share in that assumption would be to turn a blind eye to the things he hasn't shown. Or to pretend that most QBs can learn those things if given sufficient development time.

 

You have made a determination that I'm not ready to make. Atlanta gave up on Farvre (for a variety of reasons) after his first year. This qb with little bandwith led his team to a SB championship. He is going to be in the HOF. Very often patiece is a virture.

 

> He doesn't have the natural impeccable accuracy that those types of special qbs possess.

 

Agreed. In that sense he's similar to Fitz. Manuel's physical tools are worlds better than Fitz's. On the other hand, Fitz was very good at quickly and accurately processing large amounts of on-field information. There is no reason other than hope to believe that Manuel will develop a similar ability in the NFL, given that he showed no signs of it in college. Manuel's most likely ceiling is roughly at Fitz's level; with both quarterbacks possessing similar levels of accuracy, and with Manuel's physical tools offsetting Fitz's advantage in information processing.

 

Cam Newton doesn't fit your bandwith paradigm but he was the frist player taken in the draft, and he is currently exhibiting a judicious approach to qbing that your bandwith theory can't explain.

 

> This organization has no choice other than place their chips on the qb they brought to the table.

 

On the contrary: they do have a choice. There is no rule against taking first round QBs two years in a row. If anyone within the organization questions the strategy, the response could be, "a typical first round QB chosen outside the top 5 has a 30% chance of working out. It's absolutely essential to get the QB position nailed down, so we're giving ourselves two chances to do that. Besides, we think the world of [QB X]."

 

I'm very aware of your thoughts are on this issue. But do you really believe that this organization is going to draft another qb in the first round next year?

[Orton's Arm]

I don't think your posts on this particular subject merit much insight. Especially when you pull things out of the air and attempt to make it into whole cloth.

 

Why is it you avoid answering my requests for additional insight from you? I asked for your explanation on how to develop two franchise QBs simultaneously and you didn't bother to get back on that. I ask for an expansion on what you haven't seen from EJ Manuel other than consistency, and I am met, yet again, by your incessant and tired stock response of being a poster that doesn't add "insight."

 

You pronounced Manuel a bust six games into his career. One that has been interrupted twice by injury and extended absence from the field play. And you have the nerve call out others for lack of insight? Give me a break.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

> Why is it you avoid answering my requests for additional insight from you?

 

Because you are not the kind of person with whom I enjoy having discussions. Because I know that if I did try to have a reasonable discussion with you, you'd just roll your eyes at any opinion with which you disagreed; while offering no contradiction beyond your own, unsupported opinion. Because the question you asked me was immediately followed by the mocking words "Onward Christian soldier." Because the question you'd asked had already been addressed earlier in this thread. Need I go on, or do you get the hint?

[K-9]

> Why is it you avoid answering my requests for additional insight from you?

 

Because you are not the kind of person with whom I enjoy having discussions. Because I know that if I did try to have a reasonable discussion with you, you'd just roll your eyes at any opinion with which you disagreed; while offering no contradiction beyond your own, unsupported opinion. Because the question you asked me was immediately followed by the mocking words "Onward Christian soldier." Because the question you'd asked had already been addressed earlier in this thread. Need I go on, or do you get the hint?

 

Bullschit. My posting history here suggest otherwise. I've disagreed with countless opinions around here over the years and have benefitted greatly from different points of view.

 

Echoing others' assertion that you are on an anti-Manuel crusade is mocking? OK.

 

PS - can't find your "answers" to my questions anywhere. as I suspected, you didn't answer them at all.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited December 2, 2013 by K-9