T master Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 What is wrong with this situation ? Robert Craft the owner of one of our biggest rivals (although a very good & ethical owner i believe) has always stood up for what he thinks is right for the franchise & what it stands for which i commend him for ! During the entire Hernandez thing i think every move he has made signals the moves of a very dignified franchise , but he is now getting flack because he doesn't want to pay Hernandez a work out bonus ... Per the article i read , "The NFL players association has filed a grievance to help murder suspect AH collect a $82K work out bonus" of which Mr Kraft has said NO were not paying it !! You go Bob !! There should be a clause in every NFL contract from here on out that says, if a player is involved in ANY illegal doings what ever they may be the contract can & will be suspended with the possibility of being cancelled completely until any & all allegations are cleared up .. Why should any of these teams have to pay for a degenerate, thug type persons actions outside of the facility that brings the integrity of not only the team but the entire NFL down to a sub pare level ? To play in the NFL is a privilege not a right of passage just because you have football skills . And even more to the point what is the NFL PA fighting for this guy to get his money for, if the guy has been indicted apparently there is enough evidence for the indictment so why not just say something like At such a time when & IF AH is found not guilty we will be filing for his pay to be reinstated . I know contracts have certain language in them but you can cut a player for not performing up to the expectations of a coaching staff or organization & not pay them a dime yet a guy is indicted for murder & you go after pay for a WO bonus ??? Plus if they take that road it frees them up from looking like the ass end of a north bound donkey heading south . Lawyers & unions --- well i won't go there but you get it !! Fire away Bills faithful ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Just the way it goes. The contract is the contract and AH should be paid according to the contract. Kraft signed it too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Just the way it goes. The contract is the contract and AH should be paid according to the contract. Kraft signed it too and theres a collective bargaining agreement to be followed. the nflpa doesnt get to say "well, we decided not to follow it for this member but we will for this other member" i doubt you see quite the degree of fight out of them (especially publicly) that you would on other issues but legally they have to follow this course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Physicsman Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 The primary thing to keep in mind is that AH (and everyone else for that matter) is innocent until proven guilty. This is one of the most important and key precepts of the Western legal system. Possibly contracts should be changed along the lines you indicated, where if a player is found guilty of criminal/illegal acts, then their team can clawback payments. However, until he is found guilty he should still get paid because he is innocent (at this time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eme123 Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 If you start gunning down your fellow citizens you should be entitled to nothing!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibuya Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 (edited) Unless their is an arrest clause that cancels it he has to pay it, and rightfully so. Did he complete the criteria for the workout bonus ? if the bonus gets to be cancelled then what criteria did he meet in the signed contract that allows cancellation, was their a clause that in there that allows cancellation ? The guy has yet to be convicted as well, so you or nobody gets to treat him that way until he is found guilty by a jury of his peers. That is one of the basic the basic premises of our constitution Hernandez appears to be guilty, but until all the evidence is presented he is not technically guilty, and all should be wary of such quick judgements regardless of what we choose to believe Edited August 28, 2013 by shibuya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountDorkula Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Unless their is an arrest clause that cancels it he has to pay it, and rightfully so. Did he complete the criteria for the workout bonus ? if so what criteria did he meet in the signed contract that allows cancellation The guy has yet to be convicted as well, so you or nobody gets to treat him that way until he is by a jury of his peers. Hernandez appears to be guilty, but until all the evidence is presented he is not technically guilty, and all should be wary of such quick judgements regardless of what we choose to believe Hernandez deserves nothing. In this case alos the Pats can push for substance abouse as another reason not to pay it. Apparently he abused "Angel Dust" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibuya Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 (edited) Hernandez deserves nothing. In this case alos the Pats can push for substance abouse as another reason not to pay it. Apparently he abused "Angel Dust" do you have 100% proof of that it happened, and happend back then, and is it in his contract that a workout bonus can be cancelled if he fails a piss test ? Unless language is put in the contract you got nothing, and if we start allowing this type of guilty till proven innocence the end result will be more horrifying You don't get to change laws because that is what you want Edited August 28, 2013 by shibuya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 It's an issue that is bigger than Hernandez. The NFLPA has to protect all of its' players and their rights under contract. For them to ignore this situation because of a non-football related criminal charge takes them down a slippery slope. They have to defend the terms of the contract even if doing so creates bad PR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 do you have 100% proof of that it happened, and happend back then, and is it in his contract that a workout bonus can be cancelled if he fails a piss test ? Unless language is put in the contract you got nothing, and if we start allowing this type of guilty till proven innocence the end result will be more horrifying You don't get to change laws because that is what you want theres language in the CBA about what can and cannot be exempted from payment based on various happenings. its blanket and leaguewide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler#81 Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 It's an issue that is bigger than Hernandez. The NFLPA has to protect all of its' players and their rights under contract. For them to ignore this situation because of a non-football related criminal charge takes them down a slippery slope. They have to defend the terms of the contract even if doing so creates bad PR. Agreed. To the OP's point, contracts from now on would be wise to have defamation of the Team/League clauses included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 (edited) Agreed. To the OP's point, contracts from now on would be wise to have defamation of the Team/League clauses included. Everyone understands the sentiment as to why AH shouldn't receive workout money. Many people, understandably, after witnessing what has so far transpired (even within the innocent until proven guilty concept) want to see a change in the NFLA contract. But sometimes creating a solution to adress a "rare" incident creates additional unforeseen problems with respect to the adjustment of the labor agreement and its interpretation and enforcement. The best way to handle this case is let the union and management contest this issue and let the chips fall however it falls. It would be a mistake to re-open the labor agreement and try to come up with language that addresses a nebulous concept such as defamation to the team and league. That would open another set of labor/management problems and unnecessary rancor. Contracts and the law are rarely perfect. Focusing too much attention on the aberration very often detracts from dealing with the norm. Whether AH gets the bonus or not he is probably going to spend the rest of his life in jail and whatever wealth that he has accumulated will be exhausted when he is finished with his mounting criminal and legal cases. There is no need to be concerned with him getting over on anyone. Eventually he is going to be held accountable for his acts. Edited August 28, 2013 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibuya Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 theres language in the CBA about what can and cannot be exempted from payment based on various happenings. its blanket and leaguewide. if there is contract language that supports it, then by all means... enforce it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 As bad as it sounds, he deserves the money. This is money he earned prior to the arrest. It would be like going to work for a week or 2, then getting arrested and your work turning around and saying we canceled your paychecks immediately and will not pay you for the weeks we still owe you for. You did your job, earned your pay, and should be paid what your owed. Any bonuses or income that would have been earned after the arrest though (like any future bonuses) should be withheld until the issue is resolved. Also the contracts should have clauses about not being paid any additional money that would become owed for canceling the contract due to actions detrimental to the team/league. (So if the contract is guaranteed like in some sports, when the players contract is canceled and they are realised for some thing detrimental to the team/league, whatever remaining on the contract will no longer be owed to the player) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 The union has to fight for it. Hernandez paid his union dues and the union has to fight for him. How hard they fight is yet to be determined Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBUffalo Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 1. It's the way it goes. 2. The Pats decided to outright cut him and take all the financial burden that comes with releasing a player who has chunky guarantees remaining on his deal. They were praised HIGHLY for this by many. But now they're refusing that financial burden. Therefore, all that praise was for nothing. They did this move as a PR stunt and never intended to take on the financial burden. To me, the NFL should require them to pay the guarantees left in Hernandez' deal to a charity or even to the family of Odin Lloyd. Teams can't be constantly let off the hook for failing to do something about these guys playing on their teams. Which is why the Yanks shouldn't get out of A-Rod's deal. They KNEW about his history with PEDs and now they're going to have to PAY for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zazie Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 the main function of the NFLPA is to negotiate and enforce the CBA. It is a slippery slope, they really need to enforce all the rules all the time, otherwise where is the line? they made the right move filing the grievance and Kraft has to pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 1. It's the way it goes. 2. The Pats decided to outright cut him and take all the financial burden that comes with releasing a player who has chunky guarantees remaining on his deal. They were praised HIGHLY for this by many. But now they're refusing that financial burden. Therefore, all that praise was for nothing. They did this move as a PR stunt and never intended to take on the financial burden. To me, the NFL should require them to pay the guarantees left in Hernandez' deal to a charity or even to the family of Odin Lloyd. Teams can't be constantly let off the hook for failing to do something about these guys playing on their teams. Which is why the Yanks shouldn't get out of A-Rod's deal. They KNEW about his history with PEDs and now they're going to have to PAY for it. I like that idea. Thats something Kraft i think would be happy to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler#81 Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 Everyone understands the sentiment as to why AH shouldn't receive workout money. Many people, understandably, after witnessing what has so far transpired (even within the innocent until proven guilty concept) want to see a change in the NFLA contract. But sometimes creating a solution to adress a "rare" incident creates additional unforeseen problems with respect to the adjustment of the labor agreement and its interpretation and enforcement. The best way to handle this case is let the union and management contest this issue and let the chips fall however it falls. It would be a mistake to re-open the labor agreement and try to come up with language that addresses a nebulous concept such as defamation to the team and league. That would open another set of labor/management problems and unnecessary rancor. Contracts and the law are rarely perfect. Focusing too much attention on the aberration very often detracts from dealing with the norm. Whether AH gets the bonus or not he is probably going to spend the rest of his life in jail and whatever wealth that he has accumulated will be exhausted when he is finished with his mounting criminal and legal cases. There is no need to be concerned with him getting over on anyone. Eventually he is going to be held accountable for his acts. Strong post, JohnC! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UConn James Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 (edited) I'm not sure how different it would have to be from one of GBID's Hot for Teacher threads where the suspected educator is suspended without pay. People who quote the "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" thing take that way too far: that is language that government apparatuses must follow per the legal process. It does NOT mean that the suspect must not be thought less of to the general public, or that there will be no repurcussions in a suspect's personal or work life. If there is no morals clause or whatever language in the contract, it's likely that the Pats* will have to pay when it all gets winkled out. (I would be surprised if there is no morals clause in this day and age. IIRC, Rothlisberger has a motorcycle clause in his contract.) But even if they do have to pay the workout bonus, the team will no doubt sue AH for a return of some or all of his $10M signing bonus. At this point, everyone's playing contract theatre. They'll be forced to pay the bonus, they'll recoup the larger bonus, the NFLPA will get to say that they did what they were required to do in that special way where unions these days are there to always stick up for the f----ups of society, the team will get to look like they tried to stick it to a scumbag... after they tolerated the scumbag just b/c he could catch a rhomboid ball, AH will likely be convicted and his legal fees will totally bankrupt him (not that it really matters where he's headed), the merry-go-round that is the NFL and the world-at-large will continue to go in circles, and there will be plenty of scumbags in the future who are also million-dollar-talents-with-ten-cent-brains. La-di-frickin'-dah. Edited August 29, 2013 by UConn James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
first_and_ten Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 It's an issue that is bigger than Hernandez. The NFLPA has to protect all of its' players and their rights under contract. For them to ignore this situation because of a non-football related criminal charge takes them down a slippery slope. They have to defend the terms of the contract even if doing so creates bad PR. Correct, the NFPA has an obligation to fight for all players who paid union dues and are entitled to representation. AH has not been convicted of anything right now. If he fulfilled the contract stipulations for working out, then he should be paid. Kraft should know better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 Again, IIRC, the NFLPA is only grieving the money that was still owed to him as a workout bonus for the workouts he attended prior to the arrest. He supposedly met the requirements to receive the workout bonus for that time, therefore he should get the money owed to him. Just because he was arrested for a horrible crime shouldn't mean he is not entitled to be paid for his job that was done prior to being arrested and being kicked off the team. This all could have been a none issue and nothing getting out to the media if Kraft wasn't trying to be cheap and find a way to get out paying a player for something they did earn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 Correct, the NFPA has an obligation to fight for all players who paid union dues and are entitled to representation. AH has not been convicted of anything right now. If he fulfilled the contract stipulations for working out, then he should be paid. Kraft should know better. he does know. if he keeps the money, cool. if hernandez puts up a fight, so be it, he gets to look like the good guy that didnt want to pay the bad guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountDorkula Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 Again, IIRC, the NFLPA is only grieving the money that was still owed to him as a workout bonus for the workouts he attended prior to the arrest. He supposedly met the requirements to receive the workout bonus for that time, therefore he should get the money owed to him. Just because he was arrested for a horrible crime shouldn't mean he is not entitled to be paid for his job that was done prior to being arrested and being kicked off the team. This all could have been a none issue and nothing getting out to the media if Kraft wasn't trying to be cheap and find a way to get out paying a player for something they did earn This is where I will have to disagree. The moment someone takes anothers life in murder, they deserve and are owed nothing. Regardless of prior events and if they "worked out" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 This is where I will have to disagree. The moment someone takes anothers life in murder, they deserve and are owed nothing. Regardless of prior events and if they "worked out" in that case, unfortunately for you i suppose, thats simply not the way that our system works. if its any consolation, hopefully the money awarded at some point makes it through the chain and gets to either the family of the deceased, or hernandezs child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountDorkula Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 in that case, unfortunately for you i suppose, thats simply not the way that our system works. if its any consolation, hopefully the money awarded at some point makes it through the chain and gets to either the family of the deceased, or hernandezs child. IMO, that is what you will see. The family of the deceased will see he is getting this bonus and will go after it hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 IMO, that is what you will see. The family of the deceased will see he is getting this bonus and will go after it hard. They will be suing for an amount greater than his bank account with or without this small amount. Hopefully it ends up being put to good use by someone who needs/deserves it when all is said and done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 you know what would stop the over-paying of athletes, guaranteed contracts, ie cut or not, players get paid. to play devils advocate, Hernandez has yet to be convicted of anything, he should be paid for everything up to his release. the idea that anything illegal is included is is ludicrous. speeding? jay walking? disturbing the peace? innocent until proven guilty please (AH is a piece of crap, and i hope he roasts) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malazan Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 You should always have a 'no murder' clause in a contract Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts