Helpmenow Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 (edited) A ton of transplants in charlotte. Ok support only when its sunny and nice there Edited August 9, 2013 by roush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnywo Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 San diego, good luck getting a new stadium there. Agree. Living here I kind of feel bad for the fans. I was just there last week and the lower level of the place is just rusting away. There have been numerous proposals for a new sadium that just keep getting shut down. Perhaps the best city in America to host many Super Bowls and it's not going ot happen. The public will not cave in regards to financing. The latest proposal was to combine the stadium with the convention center, downtown near Petco Park. Seemed like a great idea to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CardinalScotts Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 does anyone still think the Bills are moving ? I never did stll don't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF Bills Fan Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Here is the deal, or just my take on it. The Buffalo area hasn't had the "economic means" for 3 decades now. That is why they spent a lot of effort marketing the Bills and it worked! Guess what, the Bills didn't go anywhere. If you factor in the populations of Buffalo, Rochester, and Southern Ontario your talking 6 mil give or take a few. Couple that with our economy here in Buffalo being on the mend and I have to respectfully disagree. The Bills aren't going anywhere my friend. Peel the onion back some and take a look at what is happening here. I never thought we would see the day but the city is rebuilding. Also take a look at the housing market here. These are all key indicators. I expect within 6 years a nice new stadium downtown near canalside. This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 (edited) Meh. You know it's like there's some obscure business rule in the architecture that is the Bills Fan Base...that says we have to talk about the team moving, in earnest, at least once a year, or the entire workflow process grinds to a halt, with tokens flying everywhere. This "the team will move to LA/somewhere" has been going on since forever. It's always framed as impending doom. I have news: it is not impending...if it has been impending...for 20 damn years. Am I the only poster who acknowledges the passing of time relative to this issue? Am I the only poster who recognizes the fact that LA is clearly populated with loons, who are doing their level best to keep a team out of there, and have been for 20 years? Look at the state, objectively, from a rational, business perspective, and not from a political, wishful thinking perspective. Who in their right mind wants to drop 100s of millions of their own money/borrow money, just to have the privilege of dealing with those clowns? No businessman, especially not one who has been successful to the billionaire level, looks at that city and doesn't immediately see it as the worst city in the country for an NFL team. Again, the passage of time is key: "LA is a big NFL market" has been an constant, not a variable, for 40 years. But, if LA was such a great market, why didn't it get a franchise 10 years ago, at least? Simple: bad business decision. I'd rather put an NFL franchise in Austin, TX, and yes, deal with the weirdos there. And that's the other problem: other than LA, where the hell is a team supposed to move? Portland, OR? Oh wait! Is it a shocker that this article comes from Portland, OR? Yeah. Check it. Yet another "me too" article coming from people who live in a city with no NFL team. If 5 teams should move, and only 1-2 of the them can go to LA? Then? Guess who can get one of the extra teams? Well, why not Portland? MEEEE TOOOO! Edited August 9, 2013 by OCinBuffalo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 So let's see, those five plus Buffalo plus Jacksonville. How come no one ever asks WHERE all these teams are going to move? Is LA going to suddenly support 3 teams? Do people really think little NBA cities like Portland and OKC are going to support an NFL franchise? Is Jerry Jones going to just sign off on a team in San Antonio? This issue is always good for a lot of hoopla but teams moving is still a rarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NDBUFFCUSEFAN Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonabb Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 (edited) Here is the deal, or just my take on it. The Buffalo area hasn't had the "economic means" for 3 decades now. That is why they spent a lot of effort marketing the Bills and it worked! Guess what, the Bills didn't go anywhere. If you factor in the populations of Buffalo, Rochester, and Southern Ontario your talking 6 mil give or take a few. Couple that with our economy here in Buffalo being on the mend and I have to respectfully disagree. The Bills aren't going anywhere my friend. Peel the onion back some and take a look at what is happening here. I never thought we would see the day but the city is rebuilding. Also take a look at the housing market here. These are all key indicators. I expect within 6 years a nice new stadium downtown near canalside. Well, I have way more background (professional and academically) studying the regional economy and development than I do in football and I'll give you some things I think are positive in favor of the team staying and some negatives that point toward an eventual departure. And I'll start with my stance... they're leaving, based on where we stand now and what the socio-economic indicators are pointing toward; the political history of this region; and the foolish need to geographically disperse and dominant by the NFL. The Positives Unlike other teams in smaller markets (by NFL standards), this team has a history and legacy and rabid fan base. Removing this team from Bflo would certainly result in some major embarrassment for the NFL from fans and the media. This team might be a punching bag after 13 years without a sniff of the playoffs but the average NFL fan and media member would certainly prefer the Bills stay where they are and a team like the Jags move. We can't be compared to Green Bay given their unique ownership situation, and frankly a fan base that roots with its wallet, in good times and bad. Here, we have a hardcore group of dedicated fans and season ticket holders who go win or lose (myself included). There appears to be a willingness to explore a new stadium with some political backing... largely democratic I will add. In this era of slash and burn everything, a turn at the county and state levels toward the GOP that wants to cut everything including education while only sparing the military and of course pork barrel spending that supports both parties (I'm not being political, these are facts) is highly likely to squash any new stadium and thereby give a new owner the ammo necessary to justify a move using another more willing region as a pawn in a billion dollar stadium game. And has been alluded to here, the region, if we include the so-called Tor-Buff-Chester megaregion is an economic powerhouse, however that hasn't translated to suite and box seat sales and season ticket holder waiting lists despite the regionalization efforts. So there are some potential positives. This drive to put teams in large markets is somewhat confusing to me because the NFL continue to be the #1 sport in America and grows yearly. That would seem to run counter to having to have teams in every top 20 market, and globally, which seems to be Goodell's plan. In the co-called flat world, the location of a team is important only for the owner (in our case a bad thing when it sells because an owner wants a strong regional economy) but in the grand scheme, is minimally important to NFL revenues. The issue is likely the revenue sharing aspect that greedy guys like Jones and Kraft don't like, despite the fact they need still make billions.. which I guess indicates billions aren't enough. Many billions are better. The Negatives You have to look at this situation rationally and without emotion. I'm a Bills fan but also recognize that business is business and billions are at stake. I think the world-domination drive of the league and the individual revenue sharing desires of the owners point toward the eventual departure of the Bills. The argument that the region is favorable is actually, from the league's perspective, points toward Toronto. Put yourself in a businessman's shoes; you can have a team in Bflo or on in Toronto. No brainer. So why have a team in Bflo with minimal interest from Toronto when you can put one in Toronto. The regional argument for the Bills actual works against them economically. Toronto and regionalize just as well while relying on millions being within 45 minutes of their stadium. Sorry but if I were a Bills fan in Ontario, I would have given up my seats post 9-11. Crossing the border for a game isn't worth the aggravation and as long as it remains a PITA, it'll keep fans away. But my biggest argument here is that despite what other stated above, this region is not growing, rebuilding, or improving. Don't get fooled by hundreds of millions in taxpayer dollars being spent at canalside and growth on the medical campus. The majority of job growth has been in the low paying service and retail sectors, also known as not wealth creating. Don't confuse any other that with the political rhetoric that we're growing, we're not. Don't confuse the gentrification of two neighborhoods in Bflo as proof the city is good shape, it's not. The key indicator a potential owner looks at: population (duh that's the onlt reason they want to be in LA, sheer population size. It's not just seats, it's merch they can sell to millions of people). Within the population, age is important. And what we have in the two county region is a continual decline in population that began in 1970 and has continued unabated for 40 years. The two county population has declined by more than 200,000 people since 1970 and worse off, the percent decline went up to 3.0% from 1.6% the prior decade. So its getting worse, not better. Compounding the problem is that the population that has remained behind is aging. The young generation has left, unlikely to return due to the lack of jobs, unless they want to pour overpriced Belgian swill on Elmwood Avenue to hipsters. What a region wants is a healthy portion of its population to remain in the 25-34 range, which is those coming into the workforce, hopefully educated, who buy homes, put down roots, and get engaged in the community. They also have kids, who hopefully stay and repeat the process. Looking at median age and it's pretty scary. The median age (half the population is above, half below) in Buffalo-Niagara is 40.6. In Boston it's 38.2, LA 35.3 and Dallas 33.5. Going to games is a young person's event, I'm touching 40 and its wearing on me because the crowds are getting worse (or I'm getting old!). And other teams like Cleveland are facing similar challenges in the future, the median age there is 40.6. Now the income matters too, obviously, but the point is that the higher the median age, the less potential ticket buyers! And when you're population declines and ages, like in Buffalo, that's a huge problem no matter how much of taxpayer dollars go to building fake canals. Based on 2011 census data, Bflo-Niagara's per capita income is 26,444; Cleveland's is 20,147; Dallas'; is 27,680; LA is 27,680; and Boston is 36,872. Again, volume matters and by volume I mean population. Sure, 26,444 doesn't seem bad but with a smaller population and stadium sizes being generally equal, it's harder to fill it here, which matters to an owner. And it's hard to charge a good price too. The top three most impoverished metros in America; Detroit, Cleveland and Buffalo. So even though PCI might seem high, we have a lot of poverty, meaning the income is more vested in a smaller segment of the population than equally distributed. I don't feel like doing the data collection on income ranges! And even if there was a minor rebound, you can't look at that in the context of Buffalo but in the context of other possible locations. Honestly, as someone who studied urbanization and growth, this region should thank it's lucky stars RW didn't move the team to places where there is growth in population, jobs, and wealth. Contextually, we don't matter in the hierarchy of American cities. The only possible way an owner buys this team and keeps it here is with a MAJOR, and I mean stunningly large, public commitment to offset the high acquisition costs and ensure profit. If you were a businessman (not a Terry Pegula who could buy his favorite the team as a hobby), there is little reason to keep it here given the region's continual decline and the NFL and its owner's push for more revenue. Edited August 9, 2013 by zonabb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max997 Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 " A full 40% of the city's street lights have been turned out. Roughly 120,000 of its buildings sit empty. Response times for 911 calls extend to nearly an hour, while fewer than 9% of crimes are ever solved." Wow, I knew Detroit was in rough shape but this sounds like it is close to becoming the Detroit from Robocop. Maybe all the teams should get out of there and then we can just wall it up Escape From New York style. That blew me away as well Awesome Robocop reference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offyourocker Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 " A full 40% of the city's street lights have been turned out. Roughly 120,000 of its buildings sit empty. Response times for 911 calls extend to nearly an hour, while fewer than 9% of crimes are ever solved." Wow, I knew Detroit was in rough shape but this sounds like it is close to becoming the Detroit from Robocop. Maybe all the teams should get out of there and then we can just wall it up Escape From New York style. It is impressive how close to a city in Africa it has become. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrags Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Your forgetting that there are wealthy men or men with wealthy investors that want to keep the team here or could. Men like Pegula, Galisano, Rich, date I say Kelly with may e the backing of them all? With what Pegula is attempting to do downtown, it's not out of the question that he attempts to build an empire here in Buffalo. He buys the Sabres, builds hotels and other business's right in front of his building, what's to stop him from swooping in and saving the Bills franchise and keeping them here. He would literally run this town. Yeah, I know. It's all talk. Means nothing in reality. But then again, you really have no way of proving that someone can't or wouldn't buy the team and keep them here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan_34 Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 BS. Within an hour and half drive, Buffalo has a top 5 NFL market. spot on I've been stationed in San Diego for the last decade or so. I've only been "home" a few times. This fall I'm taking my wife and children to their first Bills game at the Ralph (vs. Ravens). Not only am I looking forward to the game, I am looking forward to seeing the city that raised me and how it is progressing towards the future. I've been digging around the internet and have been quite impressed with the things that are happening in Buffalo!!! CAN"T WAIT! © Bart Scott GO BILLS!!! check out the medical corridor and canalside....good stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 God i can not wait till the regular season starts. And we can focus on the reason we are Bills fans. Not hating on this topic, but every off-season we discuss if or when the Bills are moving or not. Do you think fans in NE or ATL or Dallas do that? Is it a possibility, sure. If you think it is not possible you are kidding yourself. But why worry about. let us cheer on our team and hope we get to celebrate a BUFFALO BILL supperbowl just once sometime in the next 5 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaadThingsMan Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Mark me down for the new Stadium downtown by the harbor...I hope I see that day it would be a proud day in Bills history. Maybe Brandon will make it his legacy!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrags Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 God i can not wait till the regular season starts. And we can focus on the reason we are Bills fans. Not hating on this topic, but every off-season we discuss if or when the Bills are moving or not. Do you think fans in NE or ATL or Dallas do that? Is it a possibility, sure. If you think it is not possible you are kidding yourself. But why worry about. let us cheer on our team and hope we get to celebrate a BUFFALO BILL supperbowl just once sometime in the next 5 years. holy crap man you are so right. I think I'm officially done with this topic for all time after this. Can't take it anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zazie Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Idiotic list. Jacksonville is not on there either and they will be the first to move. When the Bills go it will be a midnight run a la the Colts from Baltimore. CNBC has little credibility, unless you want Lenny Dykstra picking your stocks for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSNBDSC Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 The Bills are not leaving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8-8 Forever? Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 We kind of are. The article says we are safe for just 8 years...which isn't totally true. PTR Exactly. Property leases get bought out all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Flanders Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 If/when the Bills ever leave, the NFL is dead to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubes Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Idiotic list. Jacksonville is not on there either and they will be the first to move. To be fair, the article does name "any team from Florida" and does discuss the Jags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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