Marcellus Wiley talks Ralph

[BuffBill]

It's an old subject, but the first time I've heard Wiley talk about it.

 

On Wiley's radio show here in LA they were discussing the Tebow vs Sanchez debate and whether starting Tebow would mean the end of Rex Ryan in New York. Wiley was asked by John Ireland what he would do if he was Rex Ryan and Woody Johnson walked into his office and told him to start Tebow over Sanchez.

 

This is what Wiley said (transcribed poorly):

 

"Ralph Wilson did the same thing to us in Buffalo with Wade Philips. Wade Phillips walks into our locker room and says, 'Look, we're going to start Rob Johnson the last game of the season, in a meaningless game where we rest Doug Flutie.' We say 'fine.' Rob Johnson goes out there throws three touchdowns, three hundred yards and the owner says I want to see that money out there on the field in the playoffs.

 

Wade Philips next week says, 'Guys, we have a change at quarterback' and we looked at him -- I mean you should have heard this locker room. Everyone starts screaming, 'What the hell?! What are you talking about' ... chain of command. We were all with Fluite. We had won 10 games with him. But chain of command."

 

Every failure this team has had, and every success, starts and ends with one man. Karma is a B word.

 

 

http://espn.go.com/e...geles/play?s=la

(In the noon block, somewhere around 12:07 mark)

I have always knew it was Ralph behind maybe the worst lineup decision in Bills' history, yet he tried all he could to make sure Wade Phillips took the heat for it. Things like this are a big reason for the lack of success in this organization for 80% of it's history. No reason for Wiley to make anything up, he is one of the most intelligent former athletes you will ever hear talk.

 

Im just going to flat out say this. The Buffalo Bills were going to the Super Bowl that season. The D was AWESOME! The O rallied around Doug, the media loved the Bills and Doug! Thats just my 2 cents but I think the Bills were magic that year.

I agree, the Bills were the hottest team in the AFC if not the entire NFL going into the Music City Ripoff. People can criticize Flutie all they want, but no QB the Bills ever had, just seemed to find ways to win like he did. It is no coincidence that 100 years later, that is still the last playoff game the Bills have been in. Ralph's letting his wallet talk over the head coaches common sense put a jinx on this team that may never be lifted.

[FitzShowUsYourTitz]

Grego wanted to come here and he was highly respected, also Marvin Lewis and John Fox interviewed so all this talk about High profile guys not wanting to come here is BS.

 

The reason guys don't want to come here now is bc of uncertainty abt future ownership and location.

 

Also not having a Franchise QB is a big deterrent, look at Jeff Fisher He chose the Rams bc of Bradford whereas Miami didn't have Tannehill yet so he went to St. Louis. If We had a Bress or Rodgers we would have much better chance of Getting Great coaches in here.

 

 

 

And Rob played a really Good game, don't know why he sucked latter but that playoff game he was spot on.

 

OMG. Look up the stats from that game! That's why I cannot for the life of me understand why Flutie vs Johnson was ever ever even a conversation let alone a QB controversy.

And to people who hate on Flutie b/c other fans or media made him out to be a hero or larger than life: get over it.

 

Johnson was 10-22 for 131 yards and Zero touchdowns. But he apparently played a great game and Flutie woulda been worse.

Frickin' Delusional.

 

Go Bills!

 

[Peter]

OMG. Look up the stats from that game! That's why I cannot for the life of me understand why Flutie vs Johnson was ever ever even a conversation let alone a QB controversy.

And to people who hate on Flutie b/c other fans or media made him out to be a hero or larger than life: get over it.

 

Johnson was 10-22 for 131 yards and Zero touchdowns. But he apparently played a great game and Flutie woulda been worse.

Frickin' Delusional.

 

Go Bills!

 

 

 

What were Air McNair's stats in that game?

 

I have always knew it was Ralph behind maybe the worst lineup decision in Bills' history, yet he tried all he could to make sure Wade Phillips took the heat for it. Things like this are a big reason for the lack of success in this organization for 80% of it's history. No reason for Wiley to make anything up, he is one of the most intelligent former athletes you will ever hear talk.

 

I agree, the Bills were the hottest team in the AFC if not the entire NFL going into the Music City Ripoff. People can criticize Flutie all they want, but no QB the Bills ever had, just seemed to find ways to win like he did. It is no coincidence that 100 years later, that is still the last playoff game the Bills have been in. Ralph's letting his wallet talk over the head coaches common sense put a jinx on this team that may never be lifted.

 

Flutie no doubt had some good games for the Bills, but the notion that he always found a way to win and would have against the Titans is belied by what happened at the end of the Dolphin playoff game.

[thewildrabbit]

I don't think that is true at all. Someone help me out here. That pick was down to Flutie or Bruce Smith. I assume Ralph had final say and okayed drafting Smith. Of course Bruce had a lackluster rookie season and was looking like a bust before he took the game seriously, and the rest is history. As for Flutie, he went to the USFL New Jersey Generals.

 

We bust on Ralph for meddling but not every pick he wanted was wrong.

 

PTR

It wasn't just the meddling in every day operations, draft picks, who to start, Etc. The man had Chuck Knox as his head coach, a version of Bill Belichick who understood every aspect of the game, offense and defense. Helped fill the stadium with his talking proud campaign. Was a shrewd talent evaluator and won despite a moron for a GM in Stew Barber, and Ralph let him simply walk away over money.

 

Ralph Wilson had the very best GM the NFL has seen over the last 40 years in Bill Polian. Building winning teams in Buffalo, Carolina and Indy, and Wilson found a way to get rid of him. John Butler was another top talent evaluator, and GM and again the main reason Butler left was for more money. Sure there were other reasons besides just the money with Knox and Butler, but mostly it came down to top dollar which Wilson didn't care to pay.

 

The bottom line here is that this owner mostly cares about filling his stadium and making a profit, winning is secondary and always has been.

[dave mcbride]

It's an old subject, but the first time I've heard Wiley talk about it.

 

On Wiley's radio show here in LA they were discussing the Tebow vs Sanchez debate and whether starting Tebow would mean the end of Rex Ryan in New York. Wiley was asked by John Ireland what he would do if he was Rex Ryan and Woody Johnson walked into his office and told him to start Tebow over Sanchez.

 

This is what Wiley said (transcribed poorly):

 

"Ralph Wilson did the same thing to us in Buffalo with Wade Philips. Wade Phillips walks into our locker room and says, 'Look, we're going to start Rob Johnson the last game of the season, in a meaningless game where we rest Doug Flutie.' We say 'fine.' Rob Johnson goes out there throws three touchdowns, three hundred yards and the owner says I want to see that money out there on the field in the playoffs.

 

Wade Philips next week says, 'Guys, we have a change at quarterback' and we looked at him -- I mean you should have heard this locker room. Everyone starts screaming, 'What the hell?! What are you talking about' ... chain of command. We were all with Fluite. We had won 10 games with him. But chain of command."

 

Every failure this team has had, and every success, starts and ends with one man. Karma is a B word.

 

 

http://espn.go.com/e...geles/play?s=la

(In the noon block, somewhere around 12:07 mark)

 

Fantastic find. Thanks.

[dave mcbride]

I for one, was not a Flutie guy, but it was hard to argue with his record...but that season Flutie was playing dreadfully the last 6 or 7 games, and his arm appeared to be getting weaker by the week. It almost seemed like it was getting to the point that they were winning in spite of him, rather than because of him. I am not sure I would have made the move that Ralph (apparently) ordered right before the playoffs, but I won't say I wasn't kind of excited about it at the time.

 

If you look at the box scores from '99, Flutie was perfectly fine in his final 7 games. He threw 9 TDs against 5 INTs and had a 5-2 record. He had a 7.11 yards-per-attempt rate, a 58.8 percent completion rate, and a QB rating of 85.1 over that stretch. He was sacked 11 times in seven games (very good - that works out to 23 per season, in comparison to Johnson's average of about 60 per season). Flutie also rushed 39 times for 169 yards over that stretch.

 

Let's also not forget that Johnson was terrible against the Titans, who had a very bad pass defense (25th in yards given up and 27th in passing TDs given up) and a mediocre defense overall (15th out of 28 teams in yards and 17th in points). Johnson was 10-22 for 131 yards that day and was sacked 6 times.

Edited October 10, 2012 by dave mcbride

[Peter]

If you look at the box scores from '99, Flutie was perfectly fine in his final 7 games. He threw 9 TDs against 5 INTs and had a 5-2 record. He had a 7.11 yards-per-attempt rate, a 58.8 percent completion rate, and a QB rating of 85.1 over that stretch. He was sacked 11 times in seven games (very good - that works out to 23 per season, in comparison to Johnson's average of about 60 per season). Flutie also rushed 39 times for 169 yards over that stretch.

 

Let's also not forget that Johnson was terrible against the Titans, who had a very bad pass defense (25th in yards given up and 27th in passing TDs given up) and a mediocre defense overall (15th out of 28 teams in yards and 17th in points). Johnson was 10-22 for 131 yards that day and was sacked 6 times.

 

Let's not forget the game conditions. What were Air McNair's stats for that game? Let's also not forget about our depleted offensive line.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Peter

[Livinginthepast]

I don't remember this. Can you please refresh my memory?

 

http://www.billsdaily.com/articles/1999/nyg.html

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Also, the notion that Flutie "saved the Bills" is pretty laughable, but it made good headlines at the time. A decision like that, particularly at a time when the Bills were still fairly relevant as a franchise, wouldn't come down to how many games they won or lost in their "contract season".

 

Laughable? The Bills had to sell a certain number of season tickets in order to trigger a clause in the lease which would extend the lease. The tickets were not selling. Period.

 

Then Flutie took over, the Bills started winning and the tickets started selling like hot cakes.

 

How is that laughable?

 

Flutie no doubt had some good games for the Bills, but the notion that he always found a way to win and would have against the Titans is belied by what happened at the end of the Dolphin playoff game.

 

How many playoff games did Rob Johnson win in his career? How many teams did he lead to the playoffs?

 

Let's not forget the game conditions. What were Air McNair's stats for that game? Let's also not forget about our depleted offensive line.

 

Johnson played a mediocre game against a weak defense. The weather was not a factor in that game. There was no wind to speak of. You're just being an apologist for Johnson. There's no objectivity in your posts on this subject.

 

You think Johnson could have been "a pretty good quarterback for the Bills?" He wasn't good enough in Buffalo and he wasn't good enough when he was given a chance later on in his career with Jon Gruden. Johnson remains the most sacked quarterback per pass attempt in NFL history. His brain didn't function quickly enough to be a starting quarterback in the NFL.

 

Do you actually remember Rob Johnson as a player?

 

How many times would you say he ran out of bounds for a loss instead of throwing the ball away?

 

What would you say to the criticisms of Rob Johnson that he was so concerned about his stats that he would rather take a sack or run out of bounds for a sack than throw an incompletion?

 

Do you remember comments attributed to his offensive linemen that they were annoyed that he would take so many sacks and make them look bad?

 

To criticize Flutie is one thing… but to even try to construct some sort of scenario where Rob Johnson could have been a good NFL quarterback (as in your post 79 above) is ludicrous.

Edited October 11, 2012 by San Jose Bills Fan

[Adam]

Neither quarterback impressed me all that much.

[Bronc24]

One of the dumbest, most inexplicable decisions ever made.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

"Rob" was 10-22 for 131 yards so I don't know about "spot on."

 

Antowain Smith had 2 rushing TDs though.

 

there's more to it than stats, he threw some real tight throws in tight windows and made plays when needed, he won us that game but we all know how it ended.

 

100% correct.

 

No coach worth a damn would even consider Buffalo right now because of this, and that has been the case for a long time.

 

I'm making a concerted effort to take a step back until this franchise is sold and new ownership is in place. Nothing is going to change for the better until then. I hope that it is in Buffalo because I won't follow the team anyplace else.

 

RTB

 

true, I couldn't believe the knuckle heads on here saying they weren't Buffalo fans but Bills fans and would root for them where ever they moved.

 

So they must be saying they are fan of the franchise which just dumb bc why would you put yourself through all those years of losing when you can just apparently pick any franchise. I mean go with Pittsburgh; 6 SB, 8 appearances, always in the playoffs, well run what else can you ask for. I guess these guys like some S&M.

 

That was back when the Bills had a very highly respected GM/Prez in TD. Once TD was dumped for Marv, clowntime began, and only mediocrities have been interested in the job. Even Meathead had enough sense to walk away.

 

Proving my point that prospective coaches weren't afraid of Meddling Ralph, The problem know as I said is uncertainty in ownership.

[Kevin]

 

 

there's more to it than stats, he threw some real tight throws in tight windows and made plays when needed, he won us that game but we all know how it ended.

 

 

Fitz had thrown some passes in tight spots too. Come to think of it so has Edwards, Losman, Bledsoe, etc.

 

I remember fondly one evening getting pulled over in the City of Dublin California. It was 2000/2001 and I was pulled over for speeding. The Deputy that pulled me over let me off with a warning. Ya know why? Because that night the Bills were POUNDED by the 49ers 35-0. The Deputy felt bad for me because I had a Bills sticker on my bumper. Who was the QB? Rob Johnson.

 

Rob was a HORRIBLE QB. Horrible. Freaking horrible.

 

 

 

 

 

Not as bad as Billy Joe Hobert though.

[Thurman#1]

The problem is he gave "freedom" to Nix & Gailey and his staff of GT assistants. Enough said.

 

 

Nuff said? Not really.

 

It might well be that when we're not two seasons and five games from a rebuild this move might look a lot better.

 

We'll see.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Fitz had thrown some passes in tight spots too. Come to think of it so has Edwards, Losman, Bledsoe, etc.

 

I remember fondly one evening getting pulled over in the City of Dublin California. It was 2000/2001 and I was pulled over for speeding. The Deputy that pulled me over let me off with a warning. Ya know why? Because that night the Bills were POUNDED by the 49ers 35-0. The Deputy felt bad for me because I had a Bills sticker on my bumper. Who was the QB? Rob Johnson.

 

Rob was a HORRIBLE QB. Horrible. Freaking horrible.

 

 

 

 

 

Not as bad as Billy Joe Hobert though.

 

Ye but not in that game.

[Livinginthepast]

Fitz had thrown some passes in tight spots too. Come to think of it so has Edwards, Losman, Bledsoe, etc.

 

I remember fondly one evening getting pulled over in the City of Dublin California. It was 2000/2001 and I was pulled over for speeding. The Deputy that pulled me over let me off with a warning. Ya know why? Because that night the Bills were POUNDED by the 49ers 35-0. The Deputy felt bad for me because I had a Bills sticker on my bumper. Who was the QB? Rob Johnson.

 

Rob was a HORRIBLE QB. Horrible. Freaking horrible.

 

 

 

 

 

Not as bad as Billy Joe Hobert though.

 

Ah Billy Joe "I didnt bother to read the playbook, should I have?" Hobart. Now that guy was an athlete!!

[BuffBill]

It wasn't just the meddling in every day operations, draft picks, who to start, Etc. The man had Chuck Knox as his head coach, a version of Bill Belichick who understood every aspect of the game, offense and defense. Helped fill the stadium with his talking proud campaign. Was a shrewd talent evaluator and won despite a moron for a GM in Stew Barber, and Ralph let him simply walk away over money.

 

Ralph Wilson had the very best GM the NFL has seen over the last 40 years in Bill Polian. Building winning teams in Buffalo, Carolina and Indy, and Wilson found a way to get rid of him. John Butler was another top talent evaluator, and GM and again the main reason Butler left was for more money. Sure there were other reasons besides just the money with Knox and Butler, but mostly it came down to top dollar which Wilson didn't care to pay.

 

The bottom line here is that this owner mostly cares about filling his stadium and making a profit, winning is secondary and always has been.

I have been right up there in bashing Ralph as an owner, but on the 50 year anniversary DVD, Chuck Knox says that Ralph offered him a contract, he just thought he had done everything he could here and pretty much wanted to go back to the left coast. Now whether he was just saying nice things so he didn't send Ralph over the edge, or to make sure he didn't bet edited out of the DVD is a whole different issue?

[FitzShowUsYourTitz]

What were Air McNair's stats in that game?

 

Seriously! That's the Friggin' "Logic" that kills me. Such a Big Johnson lover that you somehow have to say that McNair's bad stats for this game somehow prove ........I don't know what but would love to hear it. I guess, if I try to follow your logic: Johnson was good in this game because even though his stats were awful, he threw for less than 150 yards and zero touchdowns, he is still somehow a very good QB or had a very good game?

 

If you look at the box scores from '99, Flutie was perfectly fine in his final 7 games. He threw 9 TDs against 5 INTs and had a 5-2 record. He had a 7.11 yards-per-attempt rate, a 58.8 percent completion rate, and a QB rating of 85.1 over that stretch. He was sacked 11 times in seven games (very good - that works out to 23 per season, in comparison to Johnson's average of about 60 per season). Flutie also rushed 39 times for 169 yards over that stretch.

 

Let's also not forget that Johnson was terrible against the Titans, who had a very bad pass defense (25th in yards given up and 27th in passing TDs given up) and a mediocre defense overall (15th out of 28 teams in yards and 17th in points). Johnson was 10-22 for 131 yards that day and was sacked 6 times.

 

This ^^^ "I hate when facts get in the way of my logic"

[EasternOHBillsFan]

Johnson played a mediocre game against a weak defense. The weather was not a factor in that game. There was no wind to speak of. You're just being an apologist for Johnson. There's no objectivity in your posts on this subject.

 

The same defense that went to the Super Bowl, that held the mighty St. Louis Rams offense to 23 points?? Weak defense indeed...

 

The support that Flutie gets to this day because people say "What if?" is ridiculous. He won ZERO games in the postseason, ZERO, for ANY team he started for. At least Rob Johnson, in his one shining moment, didn't turn the friggin ball over and had us winning with :14 left. Flutie would never do that for us, ever.

Edited October 11, 2012 by BmoreBills

[C.Biscuit97]

It's so sad that the 2012-2013 season has turned into remembering the Music City Forward LAteral. Please Bills get to 4-3 so we can stop torturing ourselves.

[Fan in San Diego]

I agree the RW has been a big part of the problems for decades now. Only a new only will cure this problem. Sad thing is that the team will probably move after he passes.The upside is that if they move to LA, I will be able to go to home games.

[tennesseeboy]

yeah..and we are stuck with the curse of Doug Flutie ever since......

[Peter]

Seriously! That's the Friggin' "Logic" that kills me. Such a Big Johnson lover that you somehow have to say that McNair's bad stats for this game somehow prove ........I don't know what but would love to hear it. I guess, if I try to follow your logic: Johnson was good in this game because even though his stats were awful, he threw for less than 150 yards and zero touchdowns, he is still somehow a very good QB or had a very good game?

 

 

 

This ^^^ "I hate when facts get in the way of my logic"

 

 

You guys know exactly why I asked the question and that is why none of you have answered it even though I have asked it several times.

 

Steve McNair was an NFL MVP and three time pro bowl selection. I dare say that just about everyone would agree that McNair had a much more successful NFL career than either Flutie or RJ.

 

McNair's stat line for the game:

 

13 completions, 24 attempts, 1 interception, 76 gross yards, and 55 net yards.

 

I think McNair's stats put the game and conditions in perspective.

 

Neither QB had a great stat line. There is no way that anyone could say -- as many here seem to say time and time again -- that we would have won that game if only Flutie and his magical pixie dust had played in that game.

 

At the same time, these same people always seem to forget that Flutie and his magic pixie dust went missing when the game was on the line a year earlier when we were just a few yards from the Dolphins' end zone.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k-gRYXg7D08

Edited October 11, 2012 by Peter

[Maybe Someday]

The thing I hate most about Doug Flutie??? He made me root for Rob Johnson. I’ll never forgive him for that.

[Livinginthepast]

You guys know exactly why I asked the question and that is why none of you have answered it even though I have asked it several times.

 

Steve McNair was an NFL MVP and three time pro bowl selection. I dare say that just about everyone would agree that McNair had a much more successful NFL career than either Flutie or RJ.

 

McNair's stat line for the game:

 

13 completions, 24 attempts, 1 interception, 76 gross yards, and 55 net yards.

 

I think McNair's stats put the game and conditions in perspective.

 

Neither QB had a great stat line. There is no way that anyone could say -- as many here seem to say time and time again -- that we would have won that game if only Flutie and his magical pixie dust had played in that game.

 

At the same time, these same people always seem to forget that Flutie and his magic pixie dust went missing when the game was on the line a year earlier when we were just a few yards from the Dolphins' end zone.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k-gRYXg7D08

 

As others have pointed out and the video clearly shows. Thurman misses the block on Armstrong. How can anyone pin that play on Flutie? Thurman got tossed aside and fell down. The least he could have done is stayed on his feet to buy his QB some time.

 

As for the Steve McNair question he had a pretty ineffective game against a really good defence It was hardly indicative of the rest of his career. As for the conditions, they were not a factor. The temperature was an above freezing 37F and there was almost no wind. It rained but not a downpour. Conditions were not impact full on the game. RJ had a mediocre game against a mid ranked defence He managed the game enough for us to stay in it and get us ahead through Christie at the end. He could have, and should have done a lot better if he was up to snuff. In the final analysis this game was one of the "better" performances by RJ in his career. A career however that was abysmal.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

That reaction sounds a bit over the top. The whole locker room started screaming? Geez, I wouldn't have wanted to be Rob Johnson at that point. Anyhow, ironically, he did enough to win that game. I always wonder what would have happened next if we did win that game.

 

Over the top? It's completely exaggerated. It probably was more like Wiley turning to the guy standing next to him and saying, "huh?" and that was it.

 

Wiley was also young--maybe even a rookie?--so I'm not sure I would consider him to be the best position to characterize the Bills' locker room

[Peter]

As others have pointed out and the video clearly shows. Thurman misses the block on Armstrong. How can anyone pin that play on Flutie? Thurman got tossed aside and fell down. The least he could have done is stayed on his feet to buy his QB some time.

 

As for the Steve McNair question he had a pretty ineffective game against a really good defence It was hardly indicative of the rest of his career. As for the conditions, they were not a factor. The temperature was an above freezing 37F and there was almost no wind. It rained but not a downpour. Conditions were not impact full on the game. RJ had a mediocre game against a mid ranked defence He managed the game enough for us to stay in it and get us ahead through Christie at the end. He could have, and should have done a lot better if he was up to snuff. In the final analysis this game was one of the "better" performances by RJ in his career. A career however that was abysmal.

 

Flutie had all the time he needed. As the video shows, he even pump faked. Certainly, he should have seen the Dolphins best rusher coming at him from his non blind side.

 

I also find it odd that you and at least one other person would attempt to blame this all on Thurman. Flutie had all the time that he needed. The Flutie magic pixie dust was not there.

 

By the way, that mid ranked Titans defense (or as the Canadian Flutie fans say "defence") held the 13-3 Colts to 16 points a week later on the road in the Divisional playoff game, the 14-2 Jaguars to 14 points two weeks later in the AFC Championsip game on the road, and held the "Greatest Show on Turf" to only 23 points in the Super Bowl.

 

The Titans were undefeated at home that year and also had 54 sacks. By contrast, our offensive line was really banged up going into the game (Fina, Hicks, and Ostroski), and, our starting left tackle, John Fina had to leave the game after just two series.

 

For the record, I am not saying that RJ had a great passing game. Neither QB did. It was that kind of game. RJ played well enough under difficult circumstances to win the game. The point is that people (including Flutie's friend Wiley) repeatedly say - "If only we played Flutie, we would have won the game." That is BS. We had the game won without Flutie. We did not "lose" the game because Flutie did not play. Flutie's fumble the year before showed that it was possible to lose a playoff game even with him at QB notwithstanding the magic pixie dust.

[Best Player Available]

The thing I hate most about Doug Flutie??? He made me root for Rob Johnson. I’ll never forgive him for that.

 

yes, but Fluite is the reason the Buffalo Bills still play in Buffalo So for that I thank him.......... What? Wait.........maybe I should edit this?

[8-8 Forever?]

Let's put things in perspective. Wiley was good friends with Flutie. Rob Johnson is not the reason why we "lost" the game against the Titans.

 

People also seem to forget about Flutie's performance at the end of the playoff game in Miami against the Dolphins.

I thought RJohnson was pretty f ing good in the Titans game. Didn't lose it because of him. If we win that game , we win it because of him. Ralph had it right actually.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Hey Peter.

 

Way to not address numerous points made by others. I guess we're just talking past each other now so I guess I'll do the same.

 

Here's all you need to know:

 

Doug Flutie's NFL record as a starter: 38-28

 

Rob Johnson's NFL record as a starter: 12-17

 

And Flutie played his prime (8 seasons) in Canada. But as you've shown, you don't like Canada.

 

I thought RJohnson was pretty f ing good in the Titans game. Didn't lose it because of him. If we win that game , we win it because of him. Ralph had it right actually.

 

Logically you're wrong because no one can say how Flutie would have done had he been given the chance to play.

[Adam]

Hey Peter.

 

Way to not address numerous points made by others. I guess we're just talking past each other now so I guess I'll do the same.

 

Here's all you need to know:

 

Doug Flutie's NFL record as a starter: 38-28

 

Rob Johnson's NFL record as a starter: 12-17

 

And Flutie played his prime (8 seasons) in Canada. But as you've shown, you don't like Canada.

 

 

 

Logically you're wrong because no one can say how Flutie would have done had he been given the chance to play.

That isn't either guys record, cause that stat doesn't exist.

[Peter]

Hey Peter.

 

Way to not address numerous points made by others. I guess we're just talking past each other now so I guess I'll do the same.

 

Here's all you need to know:

 

Doug Flutie's NFL record as a starter: 38-28

 

Rob Johnson's NFL record as a starter: 12-17

 

And Flutie played his prime (8 seasons) in Canada. But as you've shown, you don't like Canada.

 

 

 

Logically you're wrong because no one can say how Flutie would have done had he been given the chance to play.

 

Actually, I love Canada and Canadians. I have spent A LOT of time in Canada. My point regarding that (because you seem to have missed it) was that there were many Canadian Flutie fans (because of his time in the CFL) who were Flutie fans first and foremost rather than Buffalo Bills fans.

 

Your win/loss stat is a corollary of that "Flute just wins" that the Flutopians always would say back in the day, which is a corollary of Flutie's use of the pronouns "I" after wins and "we" after losses. That is why he was not particularly well liked by several Buffalo Bills at the time.

 

In case you did not read my posts, I have stated that Flutie had some good games for the Bills. He also had some flaws. RJ also had some flaws. I had hoped that RJ would be able to develop into the kind of QB some of us thought he could be. That turned out not to be possible with Flutie on the team -- especially given that segments of the "fan" base were so wrapped up with Flutie they cheered when he got hurt.

 

The subject of the original post was Wiley's (Flutie's friend) comments about the Titans playoff game. RJ played well enough to win. We did not "lose" the game because of RJ. No one can say that we would have won that game if Flutie had played. In fact, Flutie showed the year before that, notwithstanding the "Flutie magic," it was possible for the Bills to lose a playoff game with him as the QB -- especially when he fumbled the ball at the most critical time of the game. If RJ had done the same thing in the Dolphin playoff game, that is all the Flutopians would be talking about (as opposed to the contrived argument that it had to be all Thurman's or Ostroski's fault).

 

To use your stat, both Flutie and RJ had the same playoff record with the Bills: 0-1.

 

I appreciate what Flutie did on the field for the Bills. I do not appreciate some of the things that went on behind the scenes or the hatred that many of his followers had/have for RJ. Say what you will about RJ, the guy showed a lot of courage getting the **** kicked out of him only to have some "fans" cheer when he got hurt. At the time, I wondered what his mother who was from Buffalo thought about that.

 

We had two good QBs who brought different talents to the game. One would have thought it would have been a good thing for the team. Instead, it was destructive -- so destructive that we are still arguing about it.

 

The sad thing is that I would take either of those QBs now rather than what we have now given Fitz's performance so far this year. I can only hope that Fitz somehow returns to what we saw at the beginning of last year - hopefully beginning Sunday.

 

Just my two cents.

[BuffOrange]

No one hates Flutie. The hate is for the cult that sprung up around Flutie, inflating someone who had some good games into a god.

 

PTR

 

Probably your best post imo.

 

Of all the countless 13-10 games he won, the last drive always mattered more than his stat line for the cult. But somehow for the Miami playoff game it's "oh, well, not his fault he had good stats". At least pretend to hide the gross hypocrisy?

 

The Bills offense exceeded 17 points in 2 of 8 road games in 1999. And yet in toughest road game of all against the best defense we played by a mile, 16 points was a surprising outlier that would've been easily surpassed by the other guy playing. Yah, sure.

[Livinginthepast]

Flutie had all the time he needed. As the video shows, he even pump faked. Certainly, he should have seen the Dolphins best rusher coming at him from his non blind side.

 

I also find it odd that you and at least one other person would attempt to blame this all on Thurman. Flutie had all the time that he needed. The Flutie magic pixie dust was not there.

 

By the way, that mid ranked Titans defense (or as the Canadian Flutie fans say "defence") held the 13-3 Colts to 16 points a week later on the road in the Divisional playoff game, the 14-2 Jaguars to 14 points two weeks later in the AFC Championsip game on the road, and held the "Greatest Show on Turf" to only 23 points in the Super Bowl.

 

The Titans were undefeated at home that year and also had 54 sacks. By contrast, our offensive line was really banged up going into the game (Fina, Hicks, and Ostroski), and, our starting left tackle, John Fina had to leave the game after just two series.

 

For the record, I am not saying that RJ had a great passing game. Neither QB did. It was that kind of game. RJ played well enough under difficult circumstances to win the game. The point is that people (including Flutie's friend Wiley) repeatedly say - "If only we played Flutie, we would have won the game." That is BS. We had the game won without Flutie. We did not "lose" the game because Flutie did not play. Flutie's fumble the year before showed that it was possible to lose a playoff game even with him at QB notwithstanding the magic pixie dust.

 

Well I don’t think we are going to agree on this question, but that is the fun of the discussion. Actually talking about this has rekindled memories of when the Bills actually mattered and has distracted me from the train wreck of the past decade +.

 

I still believe that you are being unduly harsh on Flutie for that fumble in the Dolphins game. I don’t think any QB in football could take such a vicious shot and hold onto the ball! Watching it again you can clearly see that Thurman utterly fails on the block of Armstrong. Thurman pushes Armstrong behind and to the right of Flutie but falls flat on his face in the process. No Qb would ever see a guy in Armstrong’s position in their peripheral vision hence the reason that Flutie gets absolutely drilled by Armstrong. Had Flutie even had an inkling that Armstrong was there he would have done his usual evasion tactics but he probably assumed that Thurman had him. Which in retrospect he had every reason to believe because Thurman was a decent blocker in pass protection. Flutie simply didn’t have the time to throw and if you watch it in real time (not your Youtube clip) it’s only a couple of seconds from the hike to the hit.

 

In regards to the ongoing Flutie Johnson debate, what I have never understood, even 13 years later , is why people continue to defend RJ when he sucked, was clueless and could not take a hit. At the time I remember so many people whining in the call in shows about how Flutie was hurting RJ’s self-esteem with mean comments as if RJ was a sensitive preschooler. I still cannot understand why people were so concerned with protecting a professional athlete’s “fragile psyche” when it was so painfully obvious that he was fraud as an NFL QB. The bottom line is Flutie didn’t ruin RJ’s potential, RJ mystifyingly convinced people he had the tools to be an all-star when it was all a mirage.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Livinginthepast

[Rico]

That isn't either guys record, cause that stat doesn't exist.

Sure it does, it is the only QB stat that matters.

 

8th column from the left...

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FlutDo00.htm

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JohnRo00.htm

[Thisistheyear]

That reaction sounds a bit over the top. The whole locker room started screaming? Geez, I wouldn't have wanted to be Rob Johnson at that point. Anyhow, ironically, he did enough to win that game. I always wonder what would have happened next if we did win that game.

Ruben Brown told me the exact same story. He said Flutie owned the lockerroom and the o-line couldn't stand Rob Johnson.

[BuffBill]

I thought RJohnson was pretty f ing good in the Titans game. Didn't lose it because of him. If we win that game , we win it because of him. Ralph had it right actually.

Even if they had won, it certainly wouldn't have been because of Rob Johnson, he was 10 of 22 with 131 yards. If they would have won it would have been because of the defense. What is funny is the Bills this past sunday in SF, gave up one and a half times the yards to the 49ers as there were total yards by both teams in that game (413 total yards). The Bills defense gave up a one yard McNair TD run and a couple field goals. They still win if Flutie starts, if not for just the fact that he wouldn't have taken that safety or all of the other 6 sacks that Surfer Boy took that day.

 

Ruben Brown told me the exact same story. He said Flutie owned the lockerroom and the o-line couldn't stand Rob Johnson.

Someone else on here said it already, but like or hate Flutie, if you are a Bills fan and have half a brain, you can thank him for the Bills still being in Buffalo. When he came in against Jacksonville and scored the game winning TD on that naked bootleg, it got a pulse going in this franchise that was almost non-existent at that time. Edited October 12, 2012 by BuffBill

[Peter]

 

Ruben Brown told me the exact same story. He said Flutie owned the lockerroom and the o-line couldn't stand Rob Johnson.

 

He may have thought he owned that locker room and that is part of why he rubbed people players the wrong way. I invite you to ask Bruce, Andre, and Thurman whether they thought Flutie "owned" that locker room and the ask them what they thought about him.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Peter, it seems like there's a few things we can agree on and a few things we can't.

 

That's fine.

 

For the record, I've never blamed Rob Johnson for the Titans loss. I also think that it's not possible to say what would have happened had Flutie started. I give Flutie enormous credit for his role in keeping the Bills in Buffalo and that overrides a helluva lot.

 

Unlike you I believe that Flutie had zero to do with Rob Johnson's lack of success and I feel like Johnson wasn't good enough to be an NFL quarterback… some combination of not being able to mentally process things quickly enough and unlike you, I don't believe that he was tough enough, mentally or physically. We're talking about competition, may the best man win. Steve Young didn't mope about being treated poorly by Joe Montana and Aaron Rodgers' career wasn't derailed by Brett Favre treating him like crap.

 

As for Flutie's won/lost record, you can dismiss it if you'd like but you have to know that his ability to consistently win in Buffalo (as opposed to Johnson's inability) was due to Flutie being able to avoid negative plays. In 1998 for instance Flutie threw the ball 354 times but was only sacked 12 times while Johnson threw the ball 107 times and was sacked 29 times!!!

 

You point out that Johnson had the crap kicked out of him while he was a Bill and the reason for that is that he either was really bad at playing quarterback or that his offensive linemen didn't really care to block for him… take your pick. Rob Johnson has the highest sack percentage of any quarterback who ever played in the NFL.

 

So to blame Flutie for being sacked by Armstrong is a little absurd to say the least.

 

That's about all I've got. I'll go with the guy who helped save the franchise over the guy who sucked… regardless of style points.

[artmalibu]

In the end their stats were about equal!! Now when Doug was playing they called a lot of roll outs and short passes but Rob was asked to take deep drop backs and throw the ball deep with a crappy o-line.

Edited October 14, 2012 by artmalibu