Ed_Formerly_of_Roch

I would also have to believe any coach in these lower leagues have an automatic out of their contracts for an NFL job at any level. So doubt that would be the hold up. Based on the timing, I have to believe it's someone on Superbowl staff.

Wasn't Browns reasons dfor voting against it different than RW's?? Seems I recall he had a different agenda??

I knew he was franchised one year, I thought SD did it again the second year, apparently not. So they got nothing for him then, other than an old Brees Jersey to sell.

Good God, you sure can read alot out something that wasn't said. Let me try again and make it clearer to you. All I was trying to say was Green Bay drafted Brohn because at the time, they had no idea how good or bad Rodgers was going to be. If they had known, do you think they would have used a #2 pick on a QB to be a backup, I doubt it. OK, I'll play along, so after Rivers first year in the league which was spent as a back up to Brees, they decided to go with Brees and trade Rivers. What would he have brought in a trade?? Essentially he was selected 4th overall. Was he worth that much a year later when he hadn't played at all? I highly doubt it. You seem to be confused between Rivers one year in the league and no playing time to show for it, and where he is today. I know it's hard to seperate the two, but try it for a minute. Couple that with the fact that the other 31 teams knew SD was not in a position of strength to trade Rivers. I think SD may have been lucky to get a low 1st rounder for him at that point. As far as 31 other teams not selecting Brohm off waivers, one of the reasons he stated he signed with the Bills was he felt he'd have a better chance to play. Having said that, it's quite possible he may have informed many of the other teams he wasn't interested in going there as he didn't feel he'd have a good shot to play. For example, would he have wanted to go to Indy and back-up Peyton Manning, probably not. Do I know Brohm is goign to be good, no. But the fact the Green Bay let him go doesn't mean a whole lot either.

Yes, that was what I meant, SD traded with the Giants, Manning and picks for Rivers. Supposedly they were trying to make the trade prior to the draft but ran out of time so ended up drafting Manning then tading as you stated. As far as Brees going to NO, I thought SD franchised him then traded him?? Could be mistaken??

If he can find stars for the Bills like he did for the Chargers, who cares. Yeah, on one hand he was kind of an embarassment, but also give him credit for stating what he really felt instead of dancing around things.

But at the time I don't think they were certain about Rodgers, that's why they drafted Brohm. Once they saw Rodgers was doing well Brohm had little chance of starting as Rodgers with 3 years experience was too far ahead for a rookie to beat him out. So Brohm drops to #2. That's where it gets tricky. Instead he falls to #3. What happened, was it a case of sulking? Maybe he was made some promises in rookie camp of being given a fair shot to start and his eyes that shot never came, so then he lost interest?? Who knows?? We do know that Green Bay did offer Brohm the same contract ass the Bills did, but he elected to sign with the Bills as he felt more chance to play. That does say that Green Bay still felt he had value, enough to pay him a fair amount to be a #3 guy? So I wouldn't say he doesn't have a shot. It's kind of what happened in San Diago with Rivers. I doubt they ever would have drafted him if they had known Brees was going to become the QB he did. They still could have made the trade with the Giants, but instead selected position players with that pick, or traded down again for more picks. They did trade Brees, but didn't get anywhere the value that the #4 overall pick would have been worth. In my opinion if they had traded down with the Giants, kept Breese and signed postion players or traded further down, they would have had the biggest dynesty in the league when you consider how good they are right now, but now add at least one more top level position player. And for anyonew who questions the value of the overall #4 pick i nthe draft......... remember Mike Williams!!!

Someone on another thread made reference to there being bad blood between RW and the Rich family? Any info on what that may be all about as I've never heard or read anyhting about it?

That's not the flip side at all. Kelly wasa winner, but he also had talent, so if you have both halves the odds go up in your favor. If you only have one of the two which for the most part is where Tebow is, you have a better chance of succeeding with talent. Scouts better be right about players most of the time, so to say it's futile is crazy. Am I a scout, is any one here on this board, highly unlikely so granted our opinions aren't very good in the grand scheme of things. I certainly can't scout anyone but am good enough with numbers and statistics to know most players in similar situations fail. Heart only carries you so far, you need the skills.

What makes you think he can be developed?? Development is for guys who have all the skills, but not the understanding of the game, usually played at smaller schools. See Phil Simm's. Tebow has the mental part down, his problem likely is the physical part, and rarely can that be developed. There's been plenty of other "winners" in college who are flops in the NFL. For the past four years if Tebow played for Syracuse, would he still be "winner" today? I doubt it. You have to be very wary of players, particually QB's whop play for schools that have potential NFL stars at every position. It becomes real easy to look great and become labeled as a winner when surrounded by all this talent. See Vince Young. I don't have anything agaisnt the guy, but based on how others college players in similar situations struggle in the NFL I would be very surprised if he works out. Just becasue he's a "winner" won't help in the NFL as so is many of the others players and those whom aren't winners get ahead on skills. If you want to develop him to be a wildcat QB, I'm fine with that though I wouldn't use more than about a 4th rounder on him. Plus Nix's comments about drafting players who can exceed in this climate makes me doubt we'd be going to a wildcat.

The Vikes play calling that whole last drive was terrible. You get the ball with 2:37 and can only get off one running play before the two minute warning. When they had 1st & 10 at the Saints 31, two runs into the line for gain of nothing. Why not try a pass on 1st down when least expecting it. It looked like the Bills game plan out there.

The funny thing thing there is while the Bills were successful in the late 80's early 90's the Colts, or as many back then called the Dolts were doing terrible every year and much of it was blamed on their owner Jim Irsay........... SENIOR

That's the problem in Buffalo, there's little room for error. Any FA signings need to work out as we i.e. RW isn't as willing as a JJ to just eat the contract and move on.

I agree that is one of the biggest problems, but I wouldn't call it an absurdity as there are many other teams in similar boat. You list a handful that have worked out, but for everyone one that's worked out, there are three failures. Look at the last twenty years in places like Detroit, Chi, Cleve, KC, NO to name a few. Even both NE and Indy are two teams that for years floundered with different QB's then they got lucky. A few teams like the Jets had an OK guy for a few years in Peddington, but was hurt to much. Same you could say about Warner going to StL, good for awhile till he left and now Az. However if Warner does retire though that team may go from 1st to last in one year. The Bills haven't failed for trying, just bad choices. Would a better GM help, likely yes. But the one problem unique to QB is there are 32 teams in the league but there are NOT 32 good starting quality NFL QB's out there. I'd give it a dozen or so,and another dozen ones you can maybe get by with. There's always going to be a certain amount of luck needed in getting a good QB. Was NE really smart in getting Brady, no way, jusy lucky. What was he a sixth rounder? If NE really knew he'd be good, you'd have picked him earlier. They just got lucky and had a strong team around him.

Absolutely wrong on this point. If Frazier was head coach HE would have selected the OC. Maybe he knows nothing about CG. Only if he were comfortable with him would he have been selected. Defensve guys tend to be on the conservetive side, (see DJ) so often choose OC's along those lines. Maybe would have happened, but there'salot of guys out there Frazier could have picked from.

Assuming everyone is healthy I agree that 4/5 of the starters are solid and have some good backups for depth. Bell is questionable. When the rest of the original starters were playing he looked OK, maybe could have improved to become decent, but not certain either he's good enough to be a starting at LT. I think we'd be better in the long run geting a better LT, but would be fine with keeping bell around for depth. All things considered while it's unlikely for a rookie to come in at LT and look great immediatley I don't think our O-line is in terrible shape. The biggest problems we currently have is QB and overall front seven on D One good outside linebacker, (could it be Maybin?) solidifies you there and one good DE/ and/or DT.

So are you telling me when it came to players. Marv just put his feet up and told DJ, JG, TM, and RB, pick whomever you guys want? I agree the picks were not all on him and I'm certain he would never have selected anyone that the rest of the front office didn't agree with. But I do think he was on board with the picks, agreed with them, and felt they were solid. To think anything else that Marv had no involvment is rather naive. I also will agree with you that he had little input towards marketing, that was likely all on RB (which was pretty good) So I guess I'd give Marv an A for being smart enough to stay out of the marketing part of it. I'll also give you that the selections weren't totally his choice. TM is a scout, most likely he gave scouting reports on all the players, gave the good and bad points. Someone if it wasn't Marv, was then making the final choice. I'm 100% certain it wasn't RB, so that leaves three guys not inculding Marv. But Marv still needed to sign off on them. IF and this is a big if as none of us know for certain, lets just say DJ wanted to select a player, and TM thought he wasn't worth selecting that high, but Marv went along with it, then I'd give Marv an F. If all three guys felt the selection was solid at best I'd give him a C as he still needed to be on board and agree it was a good selection or not. I would say since Marv left with RB being the "GM" your comments about the GM role is more true so if you're going to give Marv and A, then RB desirves a AAA RB was NOT responsible for and should not be held accountable for: - the draft selections - the free agent signings - the marketing decisions (ie. toronto) As far as Marv's comments about continual change isn't helpful, I'll totally agree with that. To that I'd say, well Marv, kind of hard to have no changes when you quit after two years. (not that I'm conplaining) That forced another GM into the role, maybe not immediately, but two years later we have a new one. Cetainly it's expected that a new GM would want a new coach.

I'd also vote for this group. Would be OK with switching Butler and Leivtre. That leaves Hangartner, Meridith, Bell and forget ther other guy as reserves. (Scott??) Not a bad group there.

Since these two haven't yet beentalked about by others much, I'll add: We have enough guards, a tackle is what we need. If everyone is healthy and can stay healthy, and they sign Incognito I think we're one player away from having a good line AND good depth. I don't think we grab another receiver until you know how Hardy will turn out. At this point other the "experts" on this board who call tell Hardy's a bust know one knows how he'll turn out. There are enough other needs to fill first, I'd give Hardy one more year as the #2 guy. Maybe we pick up a receiver with a #5 or 6 pick, but wouldn't want to invest much there yet.

Interesting you mention that as in Larry Felsers book about the NFL, that move was cited as one of the biggest events that forced the merger. Gogolak wasn't a free agent as back then there was not such thing as a free agent. So the Bills still owned exclusive rights to him. Supposedly the two leagues had a "handshake" agreement not to sign players whom were signed by the other league. When the Giants signed him, Al Davis then declared open season on signing anyone, from there the floodgates opened and within a couple of years the merger was in place. There was a whole chapter i nthe book about this. For those old enough to recall the AFL, was an interesting book to read and remember the old days.

No I'm saying out of the 10 years TM was here the past two I think it mostly on him with alot of input from DJ. And those drafts were pretty good, excluding possibly the Maybin pick.

If they want to get rid of him, he'll be gone this year after the draft. If he's stil lhere in July, it's becasue Nix wants him here. And don't give me this RW is cheap line. Fornt office people salaries aren't that high t obegin with. Personally I'll be surpised if he's gone as he seems to be cut from the same as Nix. Persoanlly I thought Guy did a terrible job and was glad to see him fired. TM, I'm kind of neutral on. You really don't know how much of former years was his picks. I'm certia nwhen TD was around TD made the final call. Marv likely went by committee so if DJ, he and JG all leaned one way and TM the other likely they go the other way. Last couple years, he may have had more say, but likely still by committee, RB may have been the tie breaker when/if needed.

Maybe what he meant was Cowler was coming to Buffalo to reccommmend the Bills hire CG

I don't think there's a conspiracy. But TD was with ESPN before he came to Buffalo and likely had some friends there. After he got fired, guys like Mort took shots at the Bill's as I think TD took a beatign here with fans etc. Likely the Bills got a bit ticked at Mort takign shots at them, so they took these guys off their Christmas card list; i.e. didn't make their job easy, give them great easy access to team, etc. So then the media took it up another level and Bills responded in kind. Things have just escalated. Same thing at WGR. The dope said some things the Bills didn't feel were fair, so they hit the ignore button when he'd call. So then the Dope took it up a notch.

If all he cares about is the bottom line, he would have left Buffalo years ago. If somebody in western NY wants to buy the team as the highest bidder, thye get the team. Maybe even a small hometown discount would be given. Having said that I'm not sure there isn't some plan in place but for whatever reason RW doesn't want anything divulged until after his death. While he's still alive, he wants everyone to view him as prick. We shall see.