Ed_Formerly_of_Roch

Hope you're right as this is one thing that actually can be learned. There's many a good NFL QB that took a long time to become good. Vinny T bounced around in mediocrity for a long time. Kurt Warner was another.

Just remember who their defensive coordinator is! Probably Greggo suggested this as we all recall his battles here with anything critical!

So as has been pointed out the data for this list was completely wrong as there are really only 12 QB's with a TD/Int of greater than 3.0 and TT is #17. Looking at that list, if you were to ask 100 people to name the top three QB's over the past say five years, likely the names of Beg Ben, Brady, Brees, and Rodgers would be on everyone's list. So if anything when looking at those names, that tells me not turning over the ball absolutely IS an indicator of a top QB. Not saying TT is anywhere near those names, but when you add in that the Bills are one of the top scoring teams over the past two seasons, that does start to say, maybe TT isn't nearly as bad as some are making him out to be. If anything the Bills are losing games due to poor defensive play as they are scoring enough points for most teams to win with. I'm, no TT lover, if the Bills could find a better QB I'm all for it, but doubt that is going to happen as there just aren't enough to go around. But do find it kind of funny in that the purpose of this thread was to point out how bad TT is, but if anything this data shows he really is something special and likely needs to be kept here as not going to find anyone better. So thank you for starting this thread in support of TT!!

Has anyone figured out where TT would fall on the list if you included rushing TD's by QB also? Does TT's passing game leave a lot to be desired? Yes but you can't just ignore his ability to keep drives alive with his legs. I don't have the time or desire to look this up myself, but do know that my eyes don't lie as he does bring more to the table than the many crusaders here wish to acknowledge. Oh thank you, someone just did figure that out for me I'm waiting till February when this place will really explode if the Bill's keep TT. I'm guessing they will as not likely to find a better option out there. Unless they decide to run down to Walmart and pick up a franchise QB on the overstocked table.

I thought Robinson first pushed off, then Gimore went back on him, but figured the refs let it go as Robinson "threw the first punch" so to speak.

Thought it was kind of funny, think it was in the 3rd quarter, there was a commercial on TV for some med to take for Crohn's disease. (at least on the ST broadcast it was aired)

I think the NFL is just a tad bit different than your office. If your job entailed having 11 guys trying to beat the hell out of you every week to the point they can cripple you, you may think different. Basically their job is to do whatever they can do (within the rules) to recover from the pain they go through, but that often isn't enough. I assume coaches aren't drug tested? If they were, I wonder how many who are ex-players would fail the tests? Could see coaches, say a guy like Ed Reed who likely has endured years of playing through pain, smoking some now after career is over to get rid of some of the never ending aches and pains. And maybe he has a prescription for it. I'd be fine with letting players smoke from say Sunday night until Wednesday to relieve pain, but don't want them playing under the influence so would 100% test everyone on Saturday morning to make sure they are clean for the game, but have no idea if tests can be done to so time sensitive?

Interesting, there were many questioning how they ever got it into the stadium through security. Now I read it was a guy and girlfriend. That started to give me some ideas on how it may have been hidden.... On the other hand if the Bills need to hire someone to start checking for these things I would work cheap.

The way Miamis has played of late (actually like there were expected to play pre-season) and Balt has played all year, both games on the road. No I wouldn't say we were expected to or should have won those. Baltimore was favored to beat us, we were the fav over Miami, but if we played that game a couple weeks later, I'd imagine Miami would be favored. Jets I'll give you we should have won that one.

Yeah and you should see what they are offering for Black Friday!!

Great, what's your solution? I'm not saying TT is a franchise QB, but he's the best we've had in awhile and don't see where you're going to improve any. Of course Whaley can just sign a franchise QB as they are a dime a dozen to find one. Every team other than Buffalo has a least two top tier franchise QB's

My 10 cents on the League... How is football going to survive with all the injuries (and stoppages). People talk about the off field stuff and the officiating being a turn off. To me the bigger thing is how much time is lost due to injuries and more importantly how can the game be any where good with so many star players constantly going down.

I'm in the camp that doesn't think he's good enough to be an NFL star just based on talent, too many on field bad choices. Having said that, Chad Kelly likely could have a fairly long NFL career as he'll show just enough amazing talent that some team will always take a chance on him, likely at backup salaries, but he'll stick around for awhile.

Yes but realistically the chances of you selecting the correct guy aren't much less than Whaley's and that's not in any way a knock on Whaley, it's reality Agree Dak Prescott worked out great. As was pointed out we also took a QB in the 4th round, just not the right one. Can blame Whaley for that if you want, but 31other teams also passed on him multiple times. Outside of NE, Green Bay, and Indy, every other team in the league should have jumped on him knowing he'd be great. And if Dallas was so smart and knew he was going to do this great they would drafted him much earlier. We could fire Whaley for that move as many here wish and then hire some brain child from some other team, who likely was involved in that teams decision to pass on Prescott too. It's just laughable all these comments that we need to find an elite QB. Like it's a simple as on draft night Whaley will proclaim he is drafting an elite QB and that resolves it. Either Whaley or his successor can decide to cut Taylor and draft that elite QB that everyone wants, but the reality based on history is we have a much better chance at selecting someone even worse than Taylor than better, regardless of what round he's selected in. That's life in the NFL! That's six teams out of 30. So are you telling me these teams all knew when they selected the current guy, he was really the answer. So when Oakland selected J Russell, they knew he'd suck but they just picked him anyway. Cinny has selected so many QB's in the past 20 years or so many very high draft picks, lost track. Do you honestly believe if any of those teams had known the guy they got was going to be even half as good as he turned out, they would have waited until they did to select him. What I'd tell those teams is they got lucky. The only one of them that actually can argue really put some thought into it was New Orleans in that they traded for the guy, the rest were just dumb luck

Great who's the elite QB you're going to get with around the 15th overall pick. Even with the #1 overall, there's a better chance of not getting the elite guy. There's a much better chance of getting the next Ryan Leaf than there is of getting the next Peyton Manning. Rams took Goff over Wentz, so far looking a bit shaky there too. All these people constantly writing about blaming Whaley for not finding a QB makes it sound like Buffalo is the only team in the league without a QB and they are easy to find.

Interesting one of these uncommon weeks where two AFC teams playing on Fox See Miami at LA is also a Fox game Five years ago, never would have happened, now does happen a few times

Trade a free agent. You definitely should apply for some NFL front office positions. You have some novel ideas there! So the one question I have, was a Lane a FA when he re-signed. From what I recall Dareus was a FA, could easily leave Buffalo, so can't imagine a player agreeing to those terms when he can easily go elsewhere immediately. Takes most leverage away from the team. If they had re-signed him early in his last season, then much easier to get player to agree to things. This wasn't an 11th hour deal, more like midnight. Not faulting the Bills for waiting that long, but does take leverage away.

Wasn't Henderson Rookie of the month in Sept of his first year?? Granted his play tailed off but that appeared to be more a result of hitting the "rookie wall" Think O-lineman are affected more than any position by this as they are rarely subbed out when healthy. Last season he was ill already in August so not even going to think about that one. To me he showed a lot of promise. Granted his suspension is a concern, but how many of the failed tests occurred over the past season which is something we'll never know. At that point don't think he was worrying too much about passing an NFL drug test as much as will I live. Even if not suspended, he likely wasn't ready to play anyway in Sept. He was the #1 lineman coming out of HS, his problems were drug related otherwise likely would have been a much higher pick.

... and there also was a second shooter!

Personally I agree with you on #1 and 4, #3 a little bit, #2 don't really care much about at all either way. Even with #4, gives me something to complain about, not sure it would stop me from watching though

As to the declining ratings, I wonder if it could be the following: I'm sure the only think counted are people watching games on local TV or via ST. How many watch illegal streams of out of market games because their favorite team isn't on TV. Yes that is what ST is for, but many would figure if I can watch online for free, why pay. Granted this isn't something invented this year, but with increases in cost to ST and DTV seemingly less inclined to offer deals and download speeds increasing, and more people over the years moving away from their hometown, maybe more people are going the to the dark side. I know I came real close myself this year, even had the appointment scheduled with TWC before DTV finally offered me a deal worth taking so stuck with them one more year. As far as fines go and personal conduct stuff, I really care very little about what happens off the field, I'm watching the game for entertainment value on Sunday. just give me a good game to watch. I often wonder what the league would be like if players didn't have names and number on their uniforms to identify them by.

First year Flutie started he played great and helped win many games. 2nd season, I think the Bills won in spite of him. By then teams had figured him out, keep someone in to limit his ability to scramble and don't let him complete passes over the middle, make him throw outside which his arm wasn't able to handle very well. What I most disliked about him was his ability off the field to deflect all blame from himself, it was always something else. He'd never outright blame anyone else, but would turn it into a debate as to who or what was to blame. I can recall listening to him post game, I'm somewhat over-simplifying here but, if he was asked say about an interception he threw and what happened, he'd try to kind of spin it, well I don't know was it the throw, was the receiver not in the correct spot or not fight hard enough, or did something go wrong with the blocking scheme? Or imply the reporter is maybe asking the wrong question. Never blame anyone else directly, but would attempt to throw doubt out there as to what went wrong. I also recall the year after the Music City game, new coach and GM, Greg Williams asked both QB's to live in Buffalo off-season to work out more with the team (can you imagine in todays CBA asking such a thing, probably lose a draft pick for even asking ) RJ said absolutely, no problem. Flutie basically told the Bill's to pound salt, believe soon after he was gone. Maybe the years of never getting the chance he felt he deserved created the "chip on the shoulder" and the attitude, but never liked him that much off the field. In summary he likely was one of the greatest "ME" guys to ever wear a Bills uniform.

True, but then that is also the risk the kicker takes in getting hit. Exactly, and when did you ever see them call a penalty for that? If they did they'd call that on every play of every game. What Carp has to do with it is he didn't try to kick the ball he never would have been in the position to be hit.

I think the other thing you have to give him credit for is he can keep drives alive with his legs. That IMO makes up for SOME of his accuracy issues.

I really don't think it makes any difference whether that player gets a new big contract with his old team or goes elsewhere via FA. I'd probably even argue there are many more FA who go elsewhere that do poorly with the new team than do real well. I recall something Marv Levy stated years ago, "FA typically hurt the team they leave more than help the team they go to." The one thing I see with NE is they rarely ever go after the big name big $$ guys, that may be one clue.