BADOLBILZ

Yeah sorry @Eastport bills.........your math is a lot fuzzy. 5 receivers plus Cook is 12 players. It's not the CFL. The reality is that in 11 personnel there will be 3 WR and in 12 there will be just 2 WR. If they use Gilliam(21 or 22) that's even more 2 WR sets. So the perceived "depth" of this group isn't a force multiplier it's some dudes that probably won't see the field unless the guys in front of them are ineffective or get injured. That is the mindset though. Even @NewEra is championing the "depth" of the group. We should know better. You judge your WR room by the quality of the top 3(moreso the top 2). Beyond that you hope they have a dynamic punt or kick returner in the bottom 3. Nope and nope.

How these receivers match-up just seems to be lost on so many fans. People cite Curtis Samuel's season with Brady...........he was the 3rd WR on that team getting favorable CB matchups all season. Similar situation in Washington. He's likely getting Sauce and Christian Gonzalez 4 times this year. I don't care what his record of getting open against man coverage is against 3rd CB's if he's going up against stud CB1's. And if Samuel proves not worthy of CB1 attention they might throw it on Kincaid or Shakir. The outlook for maintaining or improving the passing attack is not good. Which is why we have to assume that this is going to have to be a heavy 12 personnel team that tries to run the ball more than league average, use Allen's legs to keep chains moving and get across goal lines, and shorten games for the defense.

You may see it as conflated but the point is that there has been a lot of hype about Coleman and we have a faction of folks on here who think he's been discounted or even that nobody thought he was a starting X WR. That's not the case from the team OR the media OR the fans. A lot is now expected of the guy. I think Beane spoke out of turn by basically proclaiming him the starter because he was trying to control the narrative that he hadn't done enough at the boundary WR positions. That gave license to others to expand on it. I agree that he's backing off but I don't think he needed to see him in OTA's to know he might not be ready for prime time. How could he? Coleman did not resemble the kind of "finished product" that usually becomes a good starting X WR as a rookie. There is a reason similar physical profiles like Puka Nacua and Rashee Rice were played in the slot. Unless Shakir's injuries prove nagging Coleman probably isn't going to get that luxury.

I just want to say......... sabrespace has a way better hockey forum than TSW is for football. All the years of losing have created a very realistic group of posters with a great sense of humor but still some tempered optimism. Not the "but at least we're not the Lions" bickering BS from d!ckholes we had on TSW during the Bills playoff drought. Call it like it is or join the circus. For people who don't visit there, it's worthwhile.

Didn't Beane more or less say Coleman was going to be the X? You don't draft a guy that high, be very specific about his position and not expect him to start. I was in Wegmans yesterday and they have this Keon Coleman in-action NFLPA branded t-shirt for sale for like $40 or so. https://breakingt.com/products/keon-coleman-state-star?currency=USD&variant=40350109040689&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google Shopping&stkn=429f07e91590&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI97qp8ZCBhwMVMDMIBR2i0gPKEAQYICABEgL8xvD_Bw E Anyone who says Coleman has been slept on or disrespected(and there are a bunch on here) is a sand-bagger. Coleman has been up-sold to the fanbase as Diggs' successor. He has gotten the most hype of any Bills initial draft selection since Josh Allen(naturally, because he was a QB) and probably since Sammy Watkins(who was a college superstar) prior to that. Coleman had basically done squadoosh in college. And yeah the fifth year option isn't a big deal. His profile screams "project". It wouldn't surprise if the jury was still way out on him going into his walk year and/or the Bills had lost patience and paid big money for a vet or drafted a different potential WR1 by then. So you don't want to have to disrespect a 23 year old guy after year 3 by not picking up his option. If he turns into Davante Adams 2.0 in the meantime you will want to pay him long term anyway.

Like @eball........if you insist on comparing players but refuse to do even the most basic research yourself then you are not a serious person. I will dignify an argument to a point but you've offered nothing but vaguery so now it's just comedy. I'd guess that literally nobody wastes more of their time on earth on TSW here than you. You probably log the most minutes of anyone per year on here. Definitely a f#ck of a lot more than I. Claiming otherwise as an excuse to just argue without benefit of facts is just more clownery. 🤡

Matthews had played 46 of 48 career games. So having played 96% of his teams games he had averaged 58 yards per game. There wasn't any extrapolating to do. I was just pointing out that the league plays 17 games now.....not 16 like back then. And he did that as WR1 for the Eagles in 2015 and 2016. Facing the opponents best CB's. You were extrapolating a small, cherry picked sample size as a 3rd or 4th option in the passing game and ignoring the larger portion of his career. The reality is that Shakir's career production is just 24.9 yards per game. Even last year it was just 35.9. And with Diggs and Davis gone.........there is a likelihood that Shakir draws tougher CB matchups now as well.

It's pretty easy to search the Matthews trade thread. FWIW he liked the Matthews trade. Which sparked a debate with @dave mcbride. A lot of people liked Matthews because his numbers were legit bottom-third of league WR1 average over his 3 year career. And they also got a 3rd round pick in the deal(which even more people loved because they were just CERTAIN....and dead wrong......that the Bills were tanking). And people were high as a kite for Zay Jones coming off a 158 reception 1746 yard senior season at East Carolina. He was a post-season draft process superstar as well. Your perception is clouded by hindsight. Nobody thought the 2017 Bills WR corps was good but a lot of people felt you didn't need a WR1 back in those days. That's not the case anymore..........we know how important WR talent is in the current NFL.........though some Bills fans have tried to re-frame that now that we don't have a WR1.

I know this much..........today's NFL QB and WR corps' are much more talented than they were in 2017. But that's irrelevant. Josh Allen and the 2024 Buffalo Bills aren't playing in 2017 or against 2017 defense's. It's a different era for WR's and QB's. (As well as how teams defense them) Jacksonville's Blake Bortles threw for the 5th most yards of any AFC QB in 2017. Jacksonville's Trevor Lawrence threw for the 5th most yards of any AFC QB in 2023. Which one is more talented? The answer is obvious but where the team ranks in AFC QB pecking order is pretty much the same. The bar has been significantly raised for what constitutes a good WR room or a QB1. Wake up and smell it for fuxake. Even so..........the numbers on this current Bills WR corps are ghastly. Jordan Matthews was a career 58 yard per game receiver entering 2017. Curtis Samuel? Career 37.2 yards per game. Including 38 ypg each of the last two seasons. Khalil Shakir? 24.9 career and just 35.9 in 2023. MVS? 34.3 career. A feeble 19.7 last in 2023. Claypool? 39 career. Even at his best in 2020-2021 he didn't outproduce Matthews and Claypool barely registered a pulse last season and may be toast. Do some research work yourself for a change, clown.

I answered it. It has to be measured relatively. And it's close. I'd say they were bottom 5 going into 2017 and are bottom 3 going into 2024. Just feels better now because there is more talent at the WR position in general around the league now. There were some really awful WR corps around the NFL in 2017. You probably wouldn't even recognize the top performing WR on the Bears and Browns. Ricardo Louis lead the Browns in WR receiving yards. Titans were truly awful as well.

That 2017 group they broke camp with was gross. But this WR group they have now is bottom 3 in the NFL and I'm not sure even the 2017 season opener Bills WR corps ranked that low. To put it in perspective.......Jordan Matthews had played 46 of 48 career games.......his 3 year average was 58 yards per game......which projects to 986 yards per season in a 17 game season. I hated his skillset but you were probably one of those shouting me down about it that summer. But regardless........the Bills have nothing anywhere close to 58 yards per game career now. Curtis Samuel is WR1 and averaged a relatively meager 38 yards per game the last two years and missed most of 2021. Zay Jones? 4th WR off the board. Coleman? 8th. So it's debatable and after they picked up Benjamin they had acquired a guy who was on a 1,000 yard type pace that season. Keep in mind though, that 2017 was a real low point for receiving talent around the NFL. After two terrible WR drafts in 2015-2016 only 15 players total accumulated 1,000 yards receiving. Most years recently before and since that the numbers have been in the low to high 20's each season. From 2018 to 2024 it's been one tremendous WR class after the next. The QB position is A LOT deeper too. So now you need A LOT more talent at the top of your WR corps to measure up.

I really only do them for the Yanks. Is Hary Snatchez catching for the Mets this year?

First thing I thought: Totally on-brand for the Raiders organization

What a season Judge is having. Could he get to 63? I suspect they will get out of their rut soon. Buffoone is slow to recognize the obvious need for change. Rizzo was finished a month before his broken arm opened the door for Ben Rice. Gleyber Tortoise should have been put on waivers a couple weeks ago and dealt for what they can get for the pending FA. He is second amongst all major leaguers with 12 errors. He needs to be a near 800 OPS guy to justify playing and he just isn't that. Looks fat and out of shape in what should be his walk year. Le Pew is also finished. Need to let Cabrera get at bats and give some youngsters the chance in the infield. Also, Wells needs to be catching 2 out of 3 games. Gotta develop these guys. Youth will be served and youth gets you thru the dog days of summer that are coming.

And as it turned out.........the Chiefs still ended up with 2 receiving targets that finished in the top 32 in receiving yards in each of the last 2 years. Which has continued the narrative by Matt Harmon of receptionperception.com that the quality of WR2 is as important, if not more important, than the quality of WR1 in reaching a SB. The Bills had that once under Josh Allen. In 2020 when they had a top 3 WR corps in the NFL. The furthest they've gotten in the playoffs etc..

I gave you specifically what you asked for..........then @HappyDays and @FireChans gave you a lot more than "a couple of good examples". It's very disrespectful to ask for examples........be given them........then dismiss them as irrelevant. As such........you will get clowned. Goes for everyone who bickers without any regard whatsoever for the truth. See @Thurman#1 etc..

Brandon Lloyd is the IDEAL example. Good call on that one. Dude went All Pro level for his 8th year. So yeah, like I said, it can happen. I do think we need more than 700-850 from WR1 though. I don't buy the "in aggregate" nonsense. But we are talking about likelihoods. It's just unlikely that Samuel is going to break out going up against the Sauce Gardners of the league for the first time. He put up his best season as the clear-cut WR3 in Carolina. I do think we need more than 700-850 from WR1 though. I don't buy the "in aggregate" stuff........as I've said......"stopping the run with numbers" was nonsense and so is replacing the quality with quantity at WR. I think we should expect an offense that is trying to shorten games and running a lot of 12 personnel. The 2 WR on the field are going to have to produce to keep defense's from squatting on that sh!t. And a guy like Samuel needs more snaps/routes to put up 1,000 yards than Diggs did. So the numbers don't align.

It will be the first time they haven't taken a WR into the season who had put up at least a single 900 yard receiving season in their career since the period in the 1980's right after the 2-14 teams. They've almost always had someone whose been a 1,000 yard receiver in their career and 800's is pretty far from that. Including 2017. Jordan Matthews had recently been a 1,000 yard receiver. Then they picked up Benjamin and had 2 recent 1,000 yard receivers on the team.

Yeah Samuel is an 8th year journeyman who will be 28 next week. -Diggs was a little over a year younger when he came to Buffalo. - Diggs only had 5 years of NFL mileage versus 7 for Samuel. - Diggs had missed a much smaller % of games. -And the biggest difference.......Diggs averaged an excellent 925 yards per season in his career while Samuel has averaged a pedestrian 480. Is it possible for a WR to break out in his 8th or 9th season in the NFL? I guess? It's probably happened. Quinn Early did it in his NFL year 7 back in 1994 when he put up the first of four 800-1,000 yard seasons. But it's very rare to break out that late.

They drafted Davis because they needed a second RB to rotate with and compete with Cook. They went into last season with Damien Harris. They didn't run Allen hard in the second half because they didn't have enough RB's.........they did it because it's a huge advantage to run your QB.

Like I said, Curtis Samuel is a good journeyman WR. As you noted, he has also missed a lot of games injured......27 games.....in his career. That's why Samuel has averaged just 480 yards per season in 7 long years in the NFL. What you perceived that he was 8 years ago in college is a lot less important than what he's done since then. I'm no Gabe Davis fan but Davis has averaged 683 yards per season in HIS career. So yeah, they haven't been comparable producers and that's why Davis got paid a lot more.

After Gabe Davis 4 TD playoff game did you presume that he would just become a superstar with more targets? That's what @HappyDays is talking about. Giving Gabe more targets lead to diminishing returns in 2022. His catch % dropped, his passer rating plummeted 20 points and 50% more targets tripled the amount of interceptions thrown his direction. Samuel is a good, journeyman WR. A really good WR3. 7 years of film and stats to prove what he can and can't do. His best season in the NFL(under Joe Brady) he was WR3 getting WR3 CB matchups. Part of the reason "the extrapolaters" were wrong about Gabe Davis was that his skillset didn't allow him to get open against CB1's and CB2's. So when he got elevated, he got worse.

If the answer for your impossible math in your projections is "I'm hoping, because I'm a fan" then why are you aiming so low? How about hoping for 7,000 yards passing and 75 TD passes for Allen? If you are going to be unrealistic go big or go home. What's your annual salary in this fantasy?

You pretend to be curious if there are "any other".......... but then the fact that A LOT of WR put up excellent numbers with bad QB play leaves you unconvinced. As @FireChans says, not knowing this fact really illustrates that you don't follow the league. It's common knowledge. I gave you a literal All Pro example like you asked for. How bad was Houston's QB situation in 2015? Hopkins put up 1521 yards receiving with Brian Hoyer, Ryan Mallet, TJ Yates and Brandon Weeden splitting the QB duties.

DeAndre Hopkins before Watson arrived was a prime recent example. Really good WR's will get their numbers. It's why the hand wringing about what Eric Moulds or Lee Evans would have done with a better QB has always been an eye roller.