BADOLBILZ

Yeah it's been a fine line between winning and losing that doesn't show up well in the stat lines. The Denver game was the ultimate example with that ridiculously overzealous second zero blitz setting up the then too many men on the field penalty and the winning FG. As I mentioned in another thread, if they don't make the playoffs, there have been teams with better stats that have missed. Like the 2010 Chargers who missed the playoffs with both the #1 offense and defense(yardage stats) in the NFL. I've often compared these Bills to those Charger teams but I was hoping the 2021 team that limped out of the gate 6-5 was that version of the Chargers......

Yeah, unfortunately true. I've compared this current Bills organization to the 2000's Chargers many times in the past few years. Amazingly the 2010 Chargers were 1st in the NFL in offense AND defense and missed the playoffs entirely at 9-7 after a season of upsets a lot like the Bills are having. The flip side is the McD lead 2017 team had the worst point differential of any team to make the playoffs from the AFC since the 1980's.

Yeah sometimes bad strategy just works out or is overcome. Case in point.......the Patriots........who should have won at least another 4-5 Super Bowls that they never even reached during their run. They were head and shoulders the best coached and QB'd team in the league for almost 20 years. But with the exception of when they went out and got Randy Moss and speedboated their way to an undefeated regular season........Belichick seemed to relish keeping the cupboard half empty..........and it wasn't just poor drafting. It was like he wanted the challenge more than the ring. He even benched his CB1 for their SB loss to Philly. Imagine Andy Reid doing that. But usually injuries and a totally unnecessary lack of depth would be just enough to let a clearly worse coached and QB'd opponent like Denver or Pittsburgh get thru and steal a ring. We remember their late dynasty flourish of wins but they basically went a decade without winning a SB and should have won most of those. As it pertains to the Chiefs..........I don't think the team that won the SB last season was as good as the one that face-planted in the second half against Cinci in the AFCCG(with Tyreek) the season prior. That was just an aberration, IMO. They don't match up nearly as well without him and they've sorta' turned into that Patriots style team that has to win a lot of games late by one score instead of just running teams off the field.

Have you considered that maybe the strategy was wrong all along and that winning a SB without Tyreek Hill had nothing to do whatsoever with getting intentionally worse at WR but a combination of many other factors that weren't just "made possible" when Hill was traded for picks and to save money? I mean, there was a time many years ago when the Edmonton Oilers traded Wayne Gretzky and then two seasons later won another Stanley Cup. It was still a bad trade in the long run because they probably would have won 2-4 more Stanley Cups with him. If Tyreek Hill strings together a 3rd and 4th year like the first 2 unbelievable seasons he's had in Miami and the Chiefs receiving corps struggles and they do not win the SB this year or either of the two subsequent seasons it could end up looking a lot like that Gretzky trade. I'm still grateful all the time that they made that Hill trade. Yeah he's been tough to defend 4x in a little over 12 months with Miami but the Bills have mostly dominated the Dolphins anyway. It's a matchup league and he is the top non-QB matchup player in the NFL.

That was a culture win. They had a few of those that season.

Pointing out his anemic 8.5 ypc average isn't so much a criticism of him........I think he's clearly capable of much more.......but the reality is that unless they are getting greater chunks than that they aren't really winning against defensive schemes that are allowing these tiny gains by design. The lack of a quality WR2 to stretch the defense has meant they have to use him as a dump off instead of a true weapon. The high volume of dink and dunk football necessary for this team to score most weeks has lead to a lot of mistakes/turnovers. For all the minutia dissecting Dorsey's play calling it's the inability to stretch the field with bigger(and fewer) plays that got him fired. He was getting enough receivers open and winning a lot of downs(see the EPA efficiency). They finally got a couple big scoring plays last week from unexpected sources but it took a long time to get there and they happened on a ball thrown behind Shakir that was nearly picked and the other happened on a 4th down play. It's been a struggle all year with the lack of a dynamic second option in the pass game.

Oh f*ck. The dreaded @eball kiss of death. Haven't you learned anything from your "4-2" thread?..........let alone the countless terrible takes you've had prior to that over the years? One game at a time, eeebs. You can't hope to break down a schedule now anymore than you could have when it looked like easy wins over NE, Giants, Tampa, Denver etc.. Yes, they are in the hunt. It's OK for fans to discuss what "could've/should've" been............we are fans............we don't have to "deal" with what lies ahead........we are observers. Just crack open another box of wine and enjoy. Stop hiding from TSW after losses..........the journey is the only real reward.

You can double down on being wrong if you'd like...........but I think your premise has already proven very ill conceived. When you don't have a second option who can step up it changes everything for an offense nowadays. It's not just in KC, it's happening all over the league in places where they don't have a good WR2 type option. You are just going thru your first experience with not having a reliable second option during the Mahomes era...........because KC was actually out in front of the trend of surrounding their QB with high quality targets when they went out and signed Sammy Watkins to be their WR1 even though they already had two 1,000 yard receivers in Hill and Kelce.........then they drafted Hardman thinking he'd become a WR1 or WR2 type. It finally dwindled down to Juju as the second option in 2022 while they waited for Moore and Toney to develop............but Juju has already proven that he can put up WR1 type production with a top QB when he is healthy and focused. And he did, with top 30 counting and efficiency stats for the Chiefs in 2022. As soon as MVS or Watson had to step up into that 2nd option spot you started seeing the same kind of inconsistency that the Bills have had with the very similar Gabe Davis. The Chiefs have invested early round draft chips/value in Moore, Rice and Toney so I know it's not the exact same situation as the Bills, who previous to drafting Kincaid hadn't invested anything significant in a receiving target since trading for Diggs in 2020 and drafting Zay Jones and trading for Kelvin Benjamin in 2017 prior to that............but the bottom line is that if you don't have that quality of play from your second receiving option it really matters.

He looks like a man whose stopped keeping receipts.

And a million people were at "The Comeback" game.

Perhaps but it's an over-reaction from Bills fans though if you ask me. Decent game. Some nice changes. It's not like Dorsey never made any changes in 2 years though. And he was running an offense that didn't punt the ball for like a month at one point last year. He had to adjust his offense for Josh not being able to make short throws after his UCL injury. He made the changes everyone applauded in the Tampa game. He showed some identifiable flaws and looked green as a play caller at times but so did Joe Brady in Carolina. I sit about 10 rows down from the OC box. After the game there were just a few of us left and one guy was yelling and gesturing thumbs up to Brady and wondering why he didn't respond back even though he clearly heard/saw him. I told him the facts.........because he has been there and he knows he will be getting his turn over the open flames soon enough and he isn't going to acknowledge it then either. That's the nature of the job. Hopefully they build off this performance but I didn't come away from 3 quarters of having to settle for field goals against an opponent you know they've been itching for revenge against for months thinking that was a revelation of an offensive performance. This team under McD just always runs into these mid-season ruts each year and this year's has been particularly damaging and threatened to turn the season into a waste. The change was necessary for the frame of mind of the team more than anything else.

Yeah I never said the Bills D looked awesome. It was just a no contest. The Bills just needed to not turn the ball over and it would be an easy win. I follow the Jets closely. I love watching their hilarious post game shows. Must see TV. I fully expected them to be at their worst with Garrett Wilson playing with a torn UCL or whatever is going on with the elbow he injured against the Raiders. It was taking candy from a baby when the ball came to him. Just saying that Floyd and Oliver seemed to be moving around as well as they had been in a while.

Joe got some guys wide open a couple times. But Dorsey had been getting guys "NFL open" regularly though. And Warner was a guy who carved up "NFL open". We forget just how bad the execution by the players has been the past couple months. In this Jets game the fumbles got recovered, and the "yikes" throws didn't get intercepted by Sauce and Reed on the Bills side of the field etc.. But the offense still had plenty of the same issues. It was a couple thisclose plays away from being a standard 22 point Dorsey game in recent weeks. So I tend to agree with Kurt here.

Yeah I don't want to hear any BS from a player that gets himself hurt skiing, motorcycling or on a jet ski etc.. You f*ck around and you should find out. 100% self accountability. It's your representatives job to try to get you paid but the bottom line is you took an unnecessary risk. It's audacious to expect the team to pay you anything for getting hurt when you are f*cking off. That's what being properly insured for your level of risk is for.

It's not like they were replacing McKenzie...........he was trash. Just too many dumb mistakes. Agree with the overall sentiment that Harty has been a bust of a signing so far and that he and Hines were both vastly overpaid for what they can bring to the table. But Lil' Dummy has continued to be awful in Indy. 7.5 yards per reception is BRUTAL. 2 fumbles(again) on just 35 combined touches on ST and offense.

My take all along is that this defense is just replete with opportunity for LB's to make plays. Journeyman quality Preston Brown lead the NFL in tackles playing MLB for McD for chrissakes. That's why I wasn't the least bit shook about losing Edmunds. I felt confident that one of the cast of unproven, modest or low investments and/or some journeyman vet like Kirksey would emerge. And while Milano may play his position better(All Pro last year) than any other defender on the Bills..........he is not the MVP of the defense and therefore not their "best player" on defense. That being thrown out there all the time is just disingenuous. Because defensively the game is won at the LOS. Their struggles since London are much more a function of the injuries to playmaking DL like Oliver, Rousseau and Floyd and the struggles of Von Miller. Those are the "best players" because they do the next most impactful thing to playing QB........rushing the QB. When those guys aren't getting pressure and making plays it's rat-a-tat-tat thru that back 7 whether Milano is healthy or not. I mean how many times do we have to see Mahomes and Burrow do it until we can accept pass rush and penetration are the Lord and Savior of the D. Thankfully, Oliver and Floyd look like they are back to early season form and it showed against the Jets. As for Oliver specifically.........the defense has always struggled IN THE PAST when Oliver has to play 1 tech...........but this year he is handling double teams like a champ when he has to. What did they say Sunday? He has a better pressure rate against double teams than any other DT in the league has against singles this season. That's a crazy improvement but that's what we expected when he was drafted. He played NT at Houston. It was expected that he would play bigger than his size indicated.

2 veteran former star players is plenty when there are only 4-8 teams max that said players would join..........with most such teams not looking for a big non-pass rusher. DT and MLB are also positions where mid-career players often turn into very good players out of nowhere............so it wouldn't be shocking if a Dodson emerged as a good starting LB in the NFL for the next few years. Some current examples are former undrafteds by the Titans......LB Robert Spillane(now Raiders) and DT Teair Tart..........undrafted then cut and seen as fringe roster guys who emerged and will probably both be in the Pro Bowl this year when the few better ones ahead of them opt out. A one tech being "tremendously important" is a much bigger issue when there aren't serviceable options on the street..........like when it's a position "you can never have too many of" like any premium position, for example. Your logic is poor on this topic and you protest far too much about that take.

You're just wrong about that. Joseph and Suh were both out there each of the past two years..........and in seasons before that Snacks Harrison was on the cheap trade or free agent market every year from 2018-2020. This is business as usual for the big body veteran DT market. You've definitely missed the point about what @HappyDays was saying. Non-premium positions are relatively easy to fill short term and short notice with capable players. When you are trying to find players at premium positions, it's usually a much more complicated fix. I'll also add that Joseph only played 20 snaps last game and a lot of those were well after the game was out of reach.

Coaching AND the on-field leadership.

Hey, I like the Brady hiring because I think he has a great foundation.......but he was definitely terrible in Carolina. I remember watching it and thinking how idiotic some of the calls were for such a hot commodity at OC. That's why he didn't get another OC job right away. It was brutal. It would be a mistake to think they just hired a guy who can take his and beat yours or yours and beat his at this stage in his career. He's a work in progress and he claims that he now knows that he has to tailor his offense around the players instead of his scheme. As was Dorsey a work in progress.........who some team will eventually hire as an OC and their fans will be ecstatic because he was Josh Allen's QB coach and his offensive production has been so great (as opposed to Daboll who was league worst the first 3 times he was fired as an NFL OC). And Dorsey will likely address the complaints about his work at his next job. First time OC's don't usually get to take over SB contenders and rookie one's basically NEVER get to a SB. You gotta' go back to Mike Holmgren with the 49ers in the 1980's and that was taking over an offense that had just won the SB the year before. Ultimately, I think Dorsey mostly just got caught up in Josh stuff. Josh injuries. Josh drama. Josh immaturity. Josh f*cking off offseasons. Players following Josh's sadness lead this season. Josh is the sword that the OC will live or die by and they needed to do something to get Allen focused and excited about the project. Hopefully it lasts and they can build off of it.

I can't imagine how your opinion of Daboll has fallen with all the tirades and berating of players on the sidelines he's done since his totally unprepared team took the field this season.

Yeah if he keeps up his pace of the last 5 weeks he will have over 90 catches.........not 80. 8.5 yards per catch is a piss poor number for anyone who starts at the LOS though. 9.3 is not good either, which is to my point about the big ask expecting him to up that to 12.5 to get 800 over his first 80. I'm not saying he couldn't do it.........but it means locking up with CB's and Safeties in coverage downfield more.........as opposed to the LB's he has been exploiting near the LOS with the defense giving them a lot of those underneath routes that fall short of the sticks. Now, 8.5 is a solid number for a RB coming out of the backfield........but you want your slot guy averaging a first down plus per reception............that's literally why slot receivers replaced the "3rd down back" many years ago. It's also why Cole Beasley's impact decreased significantly when he fell under 10 ypc.

I haven't heard that Dorsey was inattentive to detail. I'd heard the opposite. The reality though is that he was a first time OC. A true rookie OC hasn't won a SB in the last 40 years or so but McD let Josh choose his boy anyway. I think the larger issue has really been what's gone on with Allen the past 12 months.........between the injuries and the stupid stuff off the field. He hasn't handled the transition to fame and super-rich like one would hope. More than anything I think Joshy needed a shot in the arm. They go as he goes. Simple as that.

@Zerovoltz "The Bills need less good receivers" thread might be the worst TSW thread of 2023. Receivers REALLY matter. The Chiefs may still win the SB because their D is kicking a$$ and Mahomes is still the best.........but this year their unwillingness to risk it and sign Hopkins has left them with a bunch of ball droppers running around out everywhere. Mahomes has to be pulling his hair out. MVS dropped a TD that probably wins this game and Watson dropped multiple passes including the 4th down pass that ended it for KC.

It feels that way on overreaction Monday.........but it's really not that big of an indictment of the work of Dorsey personally, IMO. Dorsey had his shortcomings but ultimately the players on offense are the most to blame for keeping many games too close this season with volumes of inexcusable turnovers...........and the fact of the matter is that the defense and special teams have given up leads the offense gave them at the very end of game 4 times. Even if Nate Hackett himself were the OC of this team they should be no worse than 9-2 heading into the tough part of their schedule. Something had to be done to get this team out of their funk. A change was needed somewhere and it couldn't be McDermott and Smiley wasn't enough of a sacrifice to move the needle. The OC took the hit and it was a good decision by McDermott to make the move, IMO. It works out great that they have an experienced, energetic young play caller to take over. If the best option was Mike Shula I think Smiley would have hit the unemployment line Monday. I liked Joe Brady's game plan just fine......it was more conservative than a wicky-wacky Daboll game plan but it still had some gotcha plays that were very well timed. But the biggest difference was still that they didn't turn the ball over and keep the inferior team in the game while they were struggling over and over to move the ball in the red zone in the first half. Just keep chopping wood........gradually pull away........and then finish them. That's the formula. Ball luck helped Joe look smart as well. Diggs and Allen both had fumbles that were not recovered by the Jets(the Allen fumble was recovered by Spencer Brown but got picked up for a penalty as well).