HardyBoy

Ok, well I'm sure the flag football league is open to players of all races and professions. Also, the flag football league is open to all sexual preferences. Cool, so we good with starting a petition to get rid of police and firefighter only sports leagues so we can be consistent, or you all agree that would be ridiculous and perhaps we can stop being hypocritical?

Cool, get rid of police and firefighter sports leagues then.

Dude, what are you talking about?! There are like 256 teams in this league, you think it's a freaking top level high level competition thing?! You all are getting your nuts twisted up over a largely social beer league for people who have historically not been welcome in social beer leagues, and the Bills tossing some money to help get it off the ground in Buffalo and use their name to help more people be aware it exists...like perhaps it's time to truly evaluate why this stuff is so triggering. All this ignorant backlash so many people automatically have had to this proves so clearly why something like this needs to exist. From the Boston league page (all skill levels encouraged to participate)

I mean people like to hang out together with other people who they have things in common with. I don't think that's going backwards, I think that's totally natural. So the issue isn't the league existing, right like gay bars are a thing, it's a social place where you can meet people you might be interested in talking to and maybe forming a closer relationship...this flag football league sounds largely like a social kickball league at most levels, where I know a few people who met one another playing kickball and got married, I think a social flag football league where if you are gay you might have a better chance to find a partner is totally a reasonable and fair thing that I don't think we really need to discuss further in terms of if it is something valid, it clearly is from a social hangout having fun hanging out with people you have stuff in common with perspective. So that leaves the higher levels of the league, like what I imagine being the highly competitive levels that will maybe even get to play a championship game on the field at the stadium because of this. Is your point about going backwards more about why are the Bills putting money behind this and not other flag football leagues? I have an explanation based on my experience working at a big corporation, just want to see that makes sense in terms of where I'm leading this convo?

I don't want to speak for others eapecially that I'm debating, but I think that for the vast majority of people in this thread that sound like they are against the league, I am getting the sense that likely don't actually have an issue with there being a league. Also, I don't think you need to justify or defend why a league like that should exist. People arguing that point and not listening to the answer aren't going to change their mind and I think you did an excellent job explaining it earlier in the thread. Like you have your experience, people saying your first hand experience is wrong and that you're not thinking or feeling the things that you're feeling or have felt/worried about in your head, feels a bit gaslight, though I'm not getting the sense it's actually intentional, just might be a valid time for you to quote Stanely from the far superior US version on The Office and drop a "did I stutter?" Quick aside, when I lived in Fort Lauderdale, my wife and I actually lived in Wilton Manors for 7 years (annoying I feel the need to preface that with "my wife") and it is such a cool and amazing place and just seeing people who in a lot of situations might feel judged and marginalized being able to sit and just talk at a restaurant and hearing them fully and genuinely laugh. There actually was a flag football team that used to practice in a park I used to walk to in my neighborhood and they were pretty good and I'm assuming they were all or majority gay. Before I get to my point, I do think that my favorite misconception I've seen in this thread is about how people are joking that this league would be super popular with gay guys because all the athletes would be super in shape and classicaly attractive, and I don't think that's necessarily the case from my understanding...the hidden benefit of being a marginalized minority group in some ways is that societal norms haven't really been forced onto them, including unrealistic beauty standards...I think there is a significantly wider range of what attractive is and so many different ways to express oneself, which is so different from what it is like in the mainstream society, especially for girls...shoot, talking about grooming, we've be grooming girls for eating disorders since at least 1955. Alright, my main point...I think it might be interesting to talk about virtue signaling, DEI and the difference between fluff corporate bs where it's just like slogans on a helmet vs actual meaningful stuff that can come from people within corporations demanding change and working together to speak truth to power through employee resource groups that lead a lot of this stuff in actually meaningful ways.

Maybe, but I don't think one of the central plot points of Mean Girls (probably the key plot point tbh) was a girl starting a rumor that another girl was a lesbian was done at all by accident. I posted this earlier up thread, but feels fitting...I read this when it came out in the actual magazine back in 2011 and I haven't re-read it, but it obviously left enough of an impression that I searched it out intentionally when I was reading through this thread earlier: https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/news/story?page=Mag15unhealthyclimate

I don't know if DEI is the same as greenwashing though...like I hear ya, but I was able to participate as much as I did in this thread today because I was off work forJuneteenth. Like sure you could say that might be because that allows them to put a blog post out how we're honoring the day and all that and do what many might argue is virtue signaling. However, I think the real value is not in that blog post, but showing people within the organization that their diverse perspectives are heard and more so helping share those with others. I had no idea what Juneteenth was until that Blackish episode a few years back, and it was cool learning that there was this really influential holiday I had no idea existed and it helped me understand the perspectives of others a bit better and kinda gave me and some coworkers the ability to have something to start a conversation over that perhaps would have been more tricky in the past. Greenwashing, like saying you're doing something positive for the environment, when that isn't actually the case. From what I've seen, DEI stuff based on objective research that I've glanced at (granted probably from sources that I trust to have journalistic integrity, but perhaps wouldn't share all the research, so there might be bias) shows significant positive outcomes from DEI stuff, and I'm not talking about transparent virtue signaling type stuff. The Bills doing this though, in my experience, which is based on working at a large legacy tech company, is there are actual people that are super passionate about getting this partnership to happen within the organization, they put a ton of effort into it, it's not just false lip service to virtue signal, but there are actual programs and events and trainings and outreach and town halls where people come into the organization and share their experiences and how this partnership is helping people and all that. Virtue signaling is annoying, but to say anyone doing anything good in an organization is doing it as a virtue signal, or perhaps where the intent of the action is to virtue signal (like greenwashing)...I think that's cynical

Omg, I genuinely bought a mattress on president's day this year! Haha, not by choice...and the day my youngest (4 years old) came into my room saying he didn't feel well and projectile vommed all over my pretty nice, not cheap, less than four year old mattress is when I learned the reason to always have a mattress protector on...did go from a queen to a king though

My dad grew up in the Soviet Union, came here and fell in love with the Bills as a way to assimilate and they were fun to watch in the early to mid 70s. Did you know that in the Soviet Union there were virtually no left handed people? Isn't that crazy, like basically nobody was left handed even though it's I believe about 10% of the population. Fun fact #2, my dad was left handed, but they believed left handed people were evil over there and different and non conforming and a threat to unity, so they forced him, like literally would hit his hand with a ruler if he used his left hand. Basically did conversation therapy on him until he was able to write right handed. I'm having a hard time seeing the difference between this and how gay people have been treated. Then, if after my dad grew up, there had been loosening of the restrictions on him being himself, and suddenly felt comfortable saying he was left handed and that he was proud of being left handed and wanted to shout to everyone you tried to break me from being proud of who I am, but you couldn't and I'm going to shout it so everyone can hear it because you taught me who I am is evil, yet here is stand... Help me understand the difference? Btw, they had the same views on gay people in the soviet union, and still have the same views on gay people over in Russia, except they'll actually put you in jail for it or worse, where being left handed would get you ostracized

How about people stop shoving Christmas down my throat? It's super annoying, I celebrate it now because I married into it, but I didn't grow up celebrating it...how about people stop shoving their specific form of patriotism down my throat.. I'm plenty patriotic, but I don't choose to express it by conforming to some weird social norm that some people keep trying to cram down my throat...why is this specific thing bothering specific people? Especially whe the people complaining about this thing being the very people that are often most guilty of cramming the most stuff down people's throats?

Basically...there is a bunch of stuff crammed down all our throats every day by corporations...why is this specific thing the thing that drives people wild? Then why do all the people that have an issue with this, as well as happy holidays and a few other issues, why do they all sound the same when they hear/see the thing that insights the reaction? It feels very very very indoctrinated. Like you can predict basically the same sequence of phrases and what will trigger them, it's weird.

Right, didn't you know that's not because people feel safer saying how they feel and be themselves, and instead is because people are being groomed and there is some something something agenda (/sarcasm) Funny how timeless Dylan is: Come mothers and fathers Throughout the land And don't criticize What you can't understand Your sons and your daughters Are beyond your command Your old road is rapidly agin' Please get out of the new one If you can't lend your hand For the times they are a-changin'

Do you realize how much stuff is constantly crammed down people's throats in this society as a way to sell stuff or further political agendas? The better is why do you think this specific thing, out of all the things is making you have that sort of almost involuntary visceral reaction? I promise I'm not judging here, I think it has to do with people being exposed to different algorithms. The people saying, these things are being crammed down our throats are the ones also saying it's being done to further a political and cultural agenda, all while doing so by using the same words and responding in the exact same ways to the exact same triggers. All the while not being annoyed at stuff being crammed down people's throats, but because they view it as the wrong things...this dad's group I'm in on fb has people constantly posting anti pride month memes, while posting pro gun memes...it's totally cool to say merry Christmas to anyone you see, even though a vastly significant % of people don't celebrate that holiday (as someone who married into celebrating it, but didn't grow up celebrating it, it's really awkward and annoying and uncomfortable when people constantly tell you merry Christmas, like I don't celebrate that holiday, why the heck are you talking to me about your religion all the time, stop it, you're cramming it down my throat), but oh man, the outrage when someone wants to say happy holidays to ensure we're celebrating all holidays...the national anthem everywhere...like I'm patriotic, but stop cramming your form of patriotism down peoples' throats that maybe express their patriotism differently. Beer commercials, magazine covers, just so much stuff constantly crammed down our throats in this society, why is this thing such a big deal? Whose agenda does it serve for people to have a strong involuntary reaction to it...why when you step back can you so easily predict that reaction based on specific trigger words and terms and why are the responses always so uniform...like I fully acknowledge there are things that trigger me, but when I look at the ways I respond to those triggers and the words I use and the words other people use that are similarly triggered, they are different words and thoughts that are coming from actually thinking through the problem and building out thoughts, it's not just an immediate visceral response that is the same as everyone else that feels the same way. It's wild, and scary...not the thoughts themselves even, but the fact that so many people are instinctively acting in such a uniform fashion when there are thousands of examples of the same thing happening, but it's like they've been conditioned to respond in such an automatic fashion...Manchurian Candidate type stuff and I'm talking the Angela Lansbury version.

Also, look what happened with the rumors about Troy Aikman and Jeff Garcia, it was really wild. Outside the Lines article from 1999 about homophobia in the nfl: https://www.espn.com/otl/world/day2_part1.html ESPN the Magazine article from 2011 talking about how coaches intentionally use coded language in recruiting pitches to try and gain an advantage in recruiting high school players and families ("family oriented"): https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/news/story?page=Mag15unhealthyclimate

Also, my bad on the comment below my first one...I genuinely thought you were saying something different and I honestly wasn't commenting to you directly, just there are so many people who approach this type of conversation in bad faith, but you don't realize it and you spend time talking through it and then they finally tell you how they really feel and it's like oh crap, you weren't ever changing your mind on this Probably fair

JCC = Jewish Community Center Gotcha! Yeah, when you said you were looking for an all heterosexual league it made it sound (and perhaps better put, I interpreted it) like you were saying this type of league isn't necessary or more so even offensive because it excludes people. It's just 95% of the time when people say stuff like that it's what they mean and I jumped to a conclusion and glad I clarified, to the extent it matters even that I get clarification, lol. There are often pickup leagues or games that happen...I mean I've never lived really outside of a bigger city (Rochester, Boston, Ft Lauderdale, Raleigh), so can't say they are everywhere, but there might be some if you know where to find them?

Also, why are there police, firefighter, etc leagues? Can't imagine you would say that same comment in response to someone talking about one those types of leagues. I mean the answer is comments like this aren't in good faith and I shouldn't waste my time trying to use logic to try and show why that is the case

First, it's not a gay only league, anyone can play, obviously they would not tolerate homophobia from players. Second, you genuinely can't see the other perspective on why this might be necessary? Like you can't see a logical reason why this is something that is needed? Would you say the same thing about a JCC league (JCCs are largely a community thing and not really religious at all)? What about women only gyms? You really can't see any reason groups of people who have been historically discriminated against or are made to feel unsafe or discriminated against would band together to create an organization that allows them to participate in their hobbies and where they feel safe to do so without the people around them making them uncomfortable or feeling like they need to hide their true selves?

Oh that's cool, yeah just read that it's open to everyone

Dude, that's not an appropriate joke (assuming you're making one) Edit: assuming you're not making that specific joke, I think Modern Family tackled that question with the gay bowling league episode

You don't understand why a league would start for gay athletes in a sport that has a history of being extremely homophobic? Like you really can't understand the reasoning behind why something like this might unfortunately be necessary? Really?

I've heard of him!

Oh for sure, but if one had a great start and then stunk and then one had a rough start and then did awesome that's important to know. Think of Peyton Manning and RGIII...they might look reasonably similar if you look over their first 40 or so games since RGIII had such an amazing first year and Manning was rough.

Anyway to see their most recent 20 or so starts?

Got it, so the guarenteed amount can still only be max five years down the line, so if he signed a 5 year deal with two years still on his original deal, the entire remaining guarentee goes into the next five years or less (depending on how they structure) and then as the next season comes along there isn't any cap currently for that player held up by their guarentee because year six is now five years out so that's how they're able to restructure in situations where they aren't actually adding additional years to the deal. You're right, I think I was missing something foundational there, thanks!