[closed]Rumor: Vick visited Buffalo

[BillsGuyInMalta]

See what I mean?

We've already lost containment.

[mrags]

Wouldn't he be going to meet with Brandon, who doesn't travel with the team?

 

Brandon did travel with the team. I spoke to him at the game. I have pics to prove it.

[Lori]

Brandon did travel with the team. I spoke to him at the game. I have pics to prove it.

Good luck with that. He apparently didn't believe me when I told him the same thing.

[smuvtalker]

Actually, he was a decent passer. It never fails to amaze me how few people recognize or acknowledge that. But the neat thing about Mike Vick is that he makes your rushing game formidable almost single-handedly. It is hard to defend against the run, the pass, and the scramble on the same play, and as a result, teams end up overcompensating and getting run all over. Just check the Atlanta Falcons numbers from when Vick was there - they lead the league in rushing easily. When Vick left, so did that tremendous success. It was not coincidence.

 

Also, I don't give 2 ***** either about you people who want to act sanctimonious. Two years in prison was more than just punishment for his convictions, and who the hell are you to continue passing judgment? Scream boycott all you want, but we will be just as well off without your dumb asses in the stands anyway.

 

The Bills will be so much more dangerous with this guy on the roster. If you want the Bills to stay in Buffalo, then how can you question the Bills acquisition of a player who brings so much to the table? I guess it comes down to what is more important - winning, and thus having a team to root for, or some dogs you've never seen who were bred to fight and would have never even lived to begin with if not for that?

 

Not to mention, considering the porous state of our O-line, it might not be a bad idea to obtain a QB who is quick on his feet. Just a thought.

 

great post. I couldn't agree more. My only fear is that two years away from the game is definitely a long time, especially in the NFL. But IMO, he would be a tremendous upgrade over Fitz or Hamdan. But if we signed him, I would definitely be excited.

[Fan in Chicago]

Good luck with that. He apparently didn't believe me when I told him the same thing.

To mis-use a cliche - a picture is worth a thousand words

[Lori]

To mis-use a cliche - a picture is worth a thousand words

Not in the age of Photoshop.

[mrags]

I already posted his stats earlier which say he has a career completion percent of 53.8. In 6 seasons, he had 71 TDs versus 52 interceptions. Passing yard average is 6.7. All show that he is NOT a decent passer.

Let us look at the Falcons record since Vick joined them

Games Started Team Record

2001 2 7-9

2002 15 9-6

2003 4 5-11

2004 15 11-5

2005 15 8-8

2006 16 7-9

2007 0 4-12

2008 0 11-5

 

The 2004 season was the best for the Falcons when Vick played almost the entire season. They took a dip in 2007 after the Vick fiasco but last season was 11-5. This data does not help make the case that he was instrumental in their success. In any case, the word 'tremendous' is not the first that jumps to mind.

 

As I dont fondle Vick's b@lls like some people. Out of the 6 seasons he played he led his team to 3 seasons where they had better records than the Bills in the last 3 years. They made the playoffs 2 times. He beat Brett Favre in January with the temp below 20* in Green Bay (not done in like a century or something rediculous like that) and took his team to the NFC Championship Game. As I said, Im not in love with the guy. But he did win games.

[Fan in Chicago]

Not in the age of Photoshop.

 

I sincerely hope mrags does not spend time Photoshopping pics of Russ Brandon !!

[The Dean]

As I dont fondle Vick's b@lls like some people. Out of the 6 seasons he played he led his team to 3 seasons where they had better records than the Bills in the last 3 years. They made the playoffs 2 times. He beat Brett Favre in January with the temp below 20* in Green Bay (not done in like a century or something rediculous like that) and took his team to the NFC Championship Game. As I said, Im not in love with the guy. But he did win games.

 

 

His TEAM won games. He led them to wins, perhaps, but the team won the games.

 

Look what happened to that team with Ryan. Maybe it really wasn't Vick's doing.

[Peevo]

First of all, I agree that Jauron will not allow a QB to play in constant broken-play mode.

 

Secondly, I do not particularly like this type of QB in general. Let alone for the Bills. A scrambling QB tends to confuse the blockers and WRs. While he may add positive yardage, passing skills and knowing when to hand off to the RB are crucial in scoring TDs.

 

Overall, besides all the moralistic issues surrounding Vick, I entirely agree with you that he is NOT the right QB for the team as primary or backup.

 

 

As much heat as we'd take for signing a convicted federal and state felon for the same crime (TREMENDOUSLY rare in the U.S. justice system-see Mcvey, Timothy) I have to think Vick's athleticism would help in some way on the field. Could you imagine Edwards, Jackson, and Vick on the field on the same play? You have to respect those threats, even Belichick.

 

However, the above poster brings up a great point. How good are our coaches anyway? Would they be able to put Vick in a position on the field to be most effective? That's up for debate.

 

Besides, Jauron "like his guys." He always has. Are they gonna go out and pick him up? I don't see it happening. They like Edwards/Fitz/Hamdan. They like Lynch/Rhodes/Jackson. We're pretty loaded at receiver. Can the guy play SAM/WILL/MIKE LB perhaps?

[Bufcomments]

From 1957 to 2003 how many opposing quarterbacks had won playoff games in Lambeau Field? One. Mike Vick.

 

Yeah I've seen him play and I've talked about his flaws as a QB tons. He would simply be the best, most dangerous, back-up QB a team could possibly have. Do you want him as your week in week out guy who you need to make reads and beat schemes? No. What you want him for is his ability to come in off the bench in an emergency, with few weekly reps, and be able to make an impact on the game for you.

 

Being a good back-up QB is sort of like being a good pinch hitter. Good hitters are not always good pinch hitters and vice versa. Good everyday hitters have routines and get into the flow of the game and have game plans for the starting pitcher, are used to getting a lot of ABs, etc. Conversely most good pinch hitters are too flawed to be everyday players which is partly why they are pinch hitting. For example, you don't want Matt Stairs as an everyday OF or DH for your ballclub. He's too slow, he strikes out too much, and he plays no defense at all. But for pinch hitting he's a scary guy to face simply because of the raw power. If he comes in late in a game with people on base there's a decent chance he's going to hit a ball hard somewhere and there's a possibility that he'll put a ball in orbit like he did in the NLCS vs. LA. He's able to hit well without lots of reps. Some guys can't.

 

If TE were to go down mid-game what other back-up QB would you rather have coming in than a guy who can throw a little, make plays with his feet, and improvise on the fly? If the back-up were a good pocket passer he'd be starting. Back-up QBs are all flawed in some way. Which flaw do you want. Do you want Fitzpatrick who is not super mobile and has an arm that makes Kelly Holcomb look like John Elway? Or a guy like Vick who has a big arm but is inaccurate but can run like hell? I'd argue that a guy like Fitzpatrick is far more reliant on timing to be successful. He doesn't throw hard enough to be late. It's hard to have that kind of timing coming in cold. Vick doesn't have that problem. You find a way to force the defense to play man coverage by formation/personnel and let him do his thing.

 

Wildcat and all the rest of that stuff is gravy. It's January 3rd, Bills are down 4, 4th Quarter. Dwight Freeney just knocked TE cold. The Bills need to win the game to make the playoffs. Who do you want coming in to lead that drive? Vick or Fitzpatrick?

This was very well thought out, I like this post a great deal.

 

But the Bills don't have the Balls to pull the trigger......but I said the same thing about TO..

 

If they did bring Vick in I for one would not be mad, he could help the team even in a limited role.

 

Heck , that is basically what they are doing with Maybin . A 3rd down pass rusher. Limited role.

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

I already posted his stats earlier which say he has a career completion percent of 53.8. In 6 seasons, he had 71 TDs versus 52 interceptions. Passing yard average is 6.7. All show that he is NOT a decent passer.

Let us look at the Falcons record since Vick joined them

Games Started Team Record

2001 2 7-9

2002 15 9-6

2003 4 5-11

2004 15 11-5

2005 15 8-8

2006 16 7-9

2007 0 4-12

2008 0 11-5

 

The 2004 season was the best for the Falcons when Vick played almost the entire season. They took a dip in 2007 after the Vick fiasco but last season was 11-5. This data does not help make the case that he was instrumental in their success. In any case, the word 'tremendous' is not the first that jumps to mind.

 

The word tremendous was used to describe the Falcons rushing attack. I suggest you work on your reading comprehension some, as the Falcons had the most dominating rushing attack of any team during Vick's tenure. Also, I never stated that Vick was the next coming of Joe Montana. I said his passing was *decent*, which it was. There are many QBs in the NFL who cannot pass with anywhere near the proficiency of Mike Vick, Ryan Fitzpatrick being a very very good example. When coupled with the way his footwork opens up the field, it moves the chains. He has a strong arm that can get the ball down field (which should be a plus when considering our receiving corps), and he is not an easy man to sack, which is definitely a plus behind our O-line. Just to further debunk your nonsensical post, let me throw you some Ryan Fitzpatrick career stats:

 

Fitzpatrick

CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT RAT

297 507 2682 58.6 5.29 79 12 17 66.9

Vick

930 1730 11505 53.8 6.7 71 52 75.7

 

Let's take a look at a few key statistics here for a pure pocket passer and disregard Vick's mobility for the time being. He has a lower completion percentage, but a higher YPA, signifying that he is completing more passes down field. His TD:INT ratio is vastly superior to Fitzpatrick. His passer rating is substantially higher (to give proper perspective, Derrick Anderson was 66.5 last year; Carson Palmer was 69; Mark Bulger was 71.4; Matt Hasselbeck was 58.7). That is four NFL teams whose starters (and stereotypical "pocket" passers) were inferior just in passing rating, which does not reflect the yardage Vick gains on the ground. And you don't think that his passing ability out of the backup slot would qualify as decent? Need I really look up the passer ratings of other backup QBs in the NFL to further thoroughly debunk your baseless post? I should hope not. Just for fun, I looked up JP Losman's career passer rating which clocks in just under MV at 75.6. Huh.

 

Also, let's compare the Falcons records during Vick's tenure to the Bills records during the same period:

 

Bills Falcons

2001 3-13 7-9

2002 8-8 9-6

2003 6-10 5-11

2004 9-7 11-5

2005 5-11 8-8

2006 7-9 7-9

 

Then you throw in MV's average of 643 rushing yards per season (higher than some starting TBs), and it becomes a no-brainer. Also, Roddy White played with MV in only his first two seasons in the NFL - 2005 & 2006 - during that time are you saying he was a premier receiver? That would be a flagrantly unsubstantiated statement.

 

Other than to prove you are not the only idiot who can selectively quote stats to make a point, I think I have also shown your entire argument to be biased and flawed BS. Also, your subject-verb agreement needs work:

 

They took a dip in 2007 after the Vick fiasco but last season was 11-5.

 

Thanks again for playing. Ciao.

[Guest dog14787]

The word tremendous was used to describe the Falcons rushing attack. I suggest you work on your reading comprehension some, as the Falcons had the most dominating rushing attack of any team during Vick's tenure. Also, I never stated that Vick was the next coming of Joe Montana. I said his passing was *decent*, which it was. There are many QBs in the NFL who cannot pass with anywhere near the proficiency of Mike Vick, Ryan Fitzpatrick being a very very good example. When coupled with the way his footwork opens up the field, it moves the chains. He has a strong arm that can get the ball down field (which should be a plus when considering our receiving corps), and he is not an easy man to sack, which is definitely a plus behind our O-line. Just to further debunk your nonsensical post, let me throw you some Ryan Fitzpatrick career stats:

 

Fitzpatrick

CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT RAT

297 507 2682 58.6 5.29 79 12 17 66.9

Vick

930 1730 11505 53.8 6.7 71 52 75.7

 

Let's take a look at a few key statistics here for a pure pocket passer and disregard Vick's mobility for the time being. He has a lower completion percentage, but a higher YPA, signifying that he is completing more passes down field. His TD:INT ratio is vastly superior to Fitzpatrick. His passer rating is substantially higher (to give proper perspective, Derrick Anderson was 66.5 last year; Carson Palmer was 69; Mark Bulger was 71.4; Matt Hasselbeck was 58.7). That is four NFL teams whose starters (and stereotypical "pocket" passers) were inferior just in passing rating, which does not reflect the yardage Vick gains on the ground. And you don't think that his passing ability out of the backup slot would qualify as decent? Need I really look up the passer ratings of other backup QBs in the NFL to further thoroughly debunk your baseless post? I should hope not. Just for fun, I looked up JP Losman's career passer rating which clocks in just under MV at 75.6. Huh.

 

Also, let's compare the Falcons records during Vick's tenure to the Bills records during the same period:

 

Bills Falcons

2001 3-13 7-9

2002 8-8 9-6

2003 6-10 5-11

2004 9-7 11-5

2005 5-11 8-8

2006 7-9 7-9

 

Then you throw in MV's average of 643 rushing yards per season (higher than some starting TBs), and it becomes a no-brainer.

 

Other than to prove you are not the only idiot who can selectively quote stats to make a point, I think I have also shown your entire argument to be biased and flawed BS. Also, your subject-verb agreement needs work:

 

 

 

Thanks again for playing. Ciao.

 

Anybody that thinks all the extra baggage Michael Vick carries with him now is worth what he brings to the table at the QB position is just kidding themselves. Although Vick is still probably one of the best athletes in the NFL when it comes to running the ball, when it comes to the QB position Vick is bellow average. Michael Vick does not read defenses well or go through his reads properly and relies almost completely on his athletic ability.

 

Vick is below average at the QB position in my opinion and when Vick dictated that he would only play the QB position any interest I would have ever had of Vick coming to Buffalo was lost.

[Delete This Account]

funny, i think i bumped into Russ on one or two occasions in Canton this past weekend. hmm. i, though, have no pictures to back it up. interesting, too, that Overdorf was in Canton on Friday, and so was Mr. Wilson, who would have a certain say in this.

 

jw

[Fan in Chicago]

The word tremendous was used to describe the Falcons rushing attack. I suggest you work on your reading comprehension some, as the Falcons had the most dominating rushing attack of any team during Vick's tenure. Also, I never stated that Vick was the next coming of Joe Montana. I said his passing was *decent*, which it was. There are many QBs in the NFL who cannot pass with anywhere near the proficiency of Mike Vick, Ryan Fitzpatrick being a very very good example. When coupled with the way his footwork opens up the field, it moves the chains. He has a strong arm that can get the ball down field (which should be a plus when considering our receiving corps), and he is not an easy man to sack, which is definitely a plus behind our O-line. Just to further debunk your nonsensical post, let me throw you some Ryan Fitzpatrick career stats:

 

Fitzpatrick

CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT RAT

297 507 2682 58.6 5.29 79 12 17 66.9

Vick

930 1730 11505 53.8 6.7 71 52 75.7

 

Let's take a look at a few key statistics here for a pure pocket passer and disregard Vick's mobility for the time being. He has a lower completion percentage, but a higher YPA, signifying that he is completing more passes down field. His TD:INT ratio is vastly superior to Fitzpatrick. His passer rating is substantially higher (to give proper perspective, Derrick Anderson was 66.5 last year; Carson Palmer was 69; Mark Bulger was 71.4; Matt Hasselbeck was 58.7). That is four NFL teams whose starters (and stereotypical "pocket" passers) were inferior just in passing rating, which does not reflect the yardage Vick gains on the ground. And you don't think that his passing ability out of the backup slot would qualify as decent? Need I really look up the passer ratings of other backup QBs in the NFL to further thoroughly debunk your baseless post? I should hope not. Just for fun, I looked up JP Losman's career passer rating which clocks in just under MV at 75.6. Huh.

 

Also, let's compare the Falcons records during Vick's tenure to the Bills records during the same period:

 

Bills Falcons

2001 3-13 7-9

2002 8-8 9-6

2003 6-10 5-11

2004 9-7 11-5

2005 5-11 8-8

2006 7-9 7-9

 

Then you throw in MV's average of 643 rushing yards per season (higher than some starting TBs), and it becomes a no-brainer.

 

Other than to prove you are not the only idiot who can selectively quote stats to make a point, I think I have also shown your entire argument to be biased and flawed BS. Also, your subject-verb agreement needs work:

 

 

 

Thanks again for playing. Ciao.

I am going to ignore the insulting tone of your note (for now)

 

First of all, him rushing a lot and gaining yards does not make a team a dominating rushing attack. A great rushing attack is when a team can rush when they want to , for the yards they want especially to gain the critical first downs. The fact that he would take off at every opportune and inopportune moment does not define dominating.

 

To your point about his quality as a passer, how can you call his performance decent given the stats ? A 53.8 completion percent and 3-2 TD-Int ratio is not good.

 

The drift of your earlier note was to get him and make Buffalo 'more dangerous'. The implication here is that he is a starter for the Bills. Which means you were implicitly comparing him to Trent Edwards - a drift you changed in this post. As a backup, he does not make the Bills dangerous cos he will be on the bench. If you explicitly said or implied you are comparing his stats to those of Fitzpatrick and/or Hamdan, I would have no argument.

 

If we need to pull stats of pocket passers, here are a few from 2008: Peyton Manning 95.0; Kurt Warner 96.9; Tony Romo 91.4. My point is that I can pull out stats also to show that other pocket passers have better records.

 

Then you compare his rushing ability. In 2004-2006, the Falcons led the league in YPG rushing yet their record declined every year. If there was credence that his rushing makes the team record better, then this should have been reflected in their W-L record. If I can use my weak comprehension skills, I am assuming you mean that if he was the Bills QB during that period the Bills record would have been better. How does the data support your theory ?

 

I pulled stats in response to your specific points. The stats do not support either point - he is a decent passer or that his rushing ability makes for a better W-L record.

 

Finally, I have not indulged in name calling so I suggest you extend the same courtesy. (You seriously want me to work on my subject-verb agreement on a message board ? )

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

Anybody that thinks the baggage Michael Vick brings with him is worth what he brings to the table is just kidding themselves. Although Vick is still probably one of the best athletes in the NFL when it comes to running the ball, when it comes to the QB position Vick is bellow average. Michael Vick does not read defenses well or go through his reads properly and relies almost completely on his athletic ability.

 

Vick sucks at the QB position in my opinion and when Vick commented( dictated) that he would only play the QB position, any interest I would have ever had of Vick coming to Buffalo was lost.

 

Wait isn't that the same thing they said about T.O.? You guys need to come up with a better argument. If you want the Bills to remain in Buffalo, you should be open to anything that makes the team better, and forget about "baggage". The Patriots have the luxury of worrying about baggage, not the Bills, and ironically the Patriots don't worry about it. That seems weird, considering their wealth of SB victories.

[Booster4324]

I suggest you work on your reading comprehension some, as the Falcons had the most dominating rushing attack of any team during Vick's tenure.

 

The Bills will be so much more dangerous with this guy on the roster. If you want the Bills to stay in Buffalo, then how can you question the Bills acquisition of a player who brings so much to the table? I guess it comes down to what is more important - winning, and thus having a team to root for, or some dogs you've never seen who were bred to fight and would have never even lived to begin with if not for that?

 

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it is a reading comprehension problem on your part and you are not being intentionally obtuse (or worse).

 

Michael Vick did kill family pets. They were thrown into the ring with the fighting dogs. I have brought this point up twice, yet you stick to your story about how these animals never would have lived if not for Vick. Reading comprehension problem?

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3718304

 

The report, dated Aug. 28, 2008, says, "Vick, Peace and Phillips thought it was funny to watch the pit bull dogs belonging to Bad Newz Kennels injure or kill the other dogs."

[Mr. WEO]

Actually, he was a decent passer. It never fails to amaze me how few people recognize or acknowledge that.

 

Maybe it's because so few people agree with that demonstrably false statement. Look, we just kissed goodbye a "mobile, athletic scrambler with a big arm".

 

For a mobile guy, Vick took a ton of sacks. He has relatively low Ints because nobody could catch his errant throws. His main target was his TE because he never knew where his primary receiver was---hence, most drop backs ended as a toss to Crumpler or, more commonly, Vick just taking off.

 

When Vick left, so did that tremendous success. It was not coincidence.

????

 

Vick started out 11-5. His next two seasons saw 8-8 and 7-9. As soon as they got rid of him and got a decent QB (a rookie....from Boston College), they were right back to 11-5 and in the playoffs.

 

I'm sure the fans of the Falcons truly miss all that "tremendous success" that Vick brought them.

[Guest dog14787]

Wait isn't that the same thing they said about T.O.? You guys need to come up with a better argument. If you want the Bills to remain in Buffalo, you should be open to anything that makes the team better, and forget about "baggage". The Patriots have the luxury of worrying about baggage, not the Bills, and ironically the Patriots don't worry about it. That seems weird, considering their wealth of SB victories.

 

 

Better argument then performing below average at the QB position, what more do you want geeesh,

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

First of all, him rushing a lot and gaining yards does not make a team a dominating rushing attack. A great rushing attack is when a team can rush when they want to , for the yards they want especially to gain the critical first downs. The fact that he would take off at every opportune and inopportune moment does not define dominating.

 

No, the fact that they lead the league in rushing in multiple seasons defines dominating.

 

To your point about his quality as a passer, how can you call his performance decent given the stats ? A 53.8 completion percent and 3-2 TD-Int ratio is not good.

 

I said he was decent, not good.

 

The drift of your earlier note was to get him and make Buffalo 'more dangerous'. The implication here is that he is a starter for the Bills. Which means you were implicitly comparing him to Trent Edwards - a drift you changed in this post. As a backup, he does not make the Bills dangerous cos he will be on the bench. If you explicitly said or implied you are comparing his stats to those of Fitzpatrick and/or Hamdan, I would have no argument.

 

Never once have I suggested Vick should start. He would make the Bills more dangerous by adding depth. There is little doubt in my mind with TE in the game, the Bills are going to be hard to stop. The pitfall is that behind a weak O-line, if TE gets injured, the season is ruined. With Vick, the Bills would have a legitimate backup who can still win, thus making them more dangerous. Your presumptions are underwhelming.

 

If we need to pull stats of pocket passers, here are a few from 2008: Peyton Manning 95.0; Kurt Warner 96.9; Tony Romo 91.4. My point is that I can pull out stats also to show that other pocket passers have better records.

 

If we can sign one of those guys as a backup QB, I'll never suggest we sign MV again.

 

Then you compare his rushing ability. In 2004-2006, the Falcons led the league in YPG rushing yet their record declined every year. If there was credence that his rushing makes the team record better, then this should have been reflected in their W-L record. If I can use my weak comprehension skills, I am assuming you mean that if he was the Bills QB during that period the Bills record would have been better. How does the data support your theory?

 

Dude do you realize that you are making an ass out of yourself here? Let me show you overall team defense during the 2001-2006 seasons vs the Falcons records in those seasons, and we can let the other people on the forum decide where the causation lies:

 

YEAR Team Defense Rank Record

2001 30 7-9

2002 19 9-6

2003 32 5-11

2004 14 11-5

2005 22 8-8

2006 22 7-9

 

In an amazing surprise, it appears that the Falcons team defense correlates to their record for each season to a far greater extent than does MVs performance, which was pretty much as consistent as steel. Holy sh--, I think I debunked you again.

 

I pulled stats in response to your specific points. The stats do not support either point - he is a decent passer or that his rushing ability makes for a better W-L record.

 

Decent does not mean Pro-bowl. And there are many other dynamics that affect a team's W/L record, but I wouldn't expect the likes of you to be sensitive to that.

 

Finally, I have not indulged in name calling so I suggest you extend the same courtesy. (You seriously want me to work on my subject-verb agreement on a message board ? )

 

I suggest if you don't want to be called an idiot, don't submit posts to forums that make you look like an idiot. And whenever you are trying to convince someone of the merits of your perspective, subject-verb agreement is ALWAYS important.

[Fan in Chicago]

No, the fact that they lead the league in rushing in multiple seasons defines dominating.

 

 

 

If we can sign one of those guys as a backup QB, I'll never suggest we sign MV again.

 

 

 

Dude do you realize that you are making an ass out of yourself here? Let me show you overall team defense during the 2001-2006 seasons vs the Falcons records in those seasons, and we can let the other people on the forum decide where the causation lies:

 

YEAR Team Defense Rank Record

2001 30 7-9

2002 19 9-6

2003 32 5-11

2004 14 11-5

2005 22 8-8

2006 22 7-9

 

In an amazing surprise, it appears that the Falcons team defense correlates to their record for each season to a far greater extent than does MVs performance, which was pretty much as consistent as steel. Holy sh--, I think I debunked you again.

 

 

 

Decent does not mean Pro-bowl. And there are many other dynamics that affect a team's W/L record, but I wouldn't expect the likes of you to be sensitive to that.

 

 

 

I suggest if you don't want to be called an idiot, don't submit posts to forums that make you look like an idiot. And whenever you are trying to convince someone of the merits of your perspective, subject-verb agreement is ALWAYS important.

 

You keep changing arguments when facts supplied by me debunk what you claimed. First you implied Vick will make Bills better but when I pointed out he is neither a good passer nor that his rushing would help us to a better record, you changed to say he would be better than our backups.

Then I pointed out his rushing stats as related to the Falcons W-L record, you point to their defense.

So did Vick cause their better record or are you agreeing to The Dean's point that it is the team that wins and not the QB ? I am saying Vick will not make the Bills better.

 

It is your posts that make you look like an idiot and a dumba$$ who cannot stick to one line of argument and continuously deflect arguments when you cannot win any. I am not participating in a national debate which place emphasis on grammatical superiority. So, STFU !

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

You keep changing arguments when facts supplied by me debunk what you claimed. First you implied Vick will make Bills better but when I pointed out he is neither a good passer nor that his rushing would help us to a better record, you changed to say he would be better than our backups.

Then I pointed out his rushing stats as related to the Falcons W-L record, you point to their defense.

So did Vick cause their better record or are you agreeing to The Dean's point that it is the team that wins and not the QB ? I am saying Vick will not make the Bills better.

 

It is your posts that make you look like an idiot and a dumba$$ who cannot stick to one line of argument and continuously deflect arguments when you cannot win any. I am not participating in a national debate which place emphasis on grammatical superiority. So, STFU !

 

When did my argument change? Can you quote my words where I stated Vick should be our starting QB? I considered it to be obvious that ANY team would only consider him to be a backup this year, and I thought everyone else did as well. I still flat out stated that Vick makes the Bills better, and I hold to that, because our backup situation is one of our biggest flaws as a team. So there is no contradiction there. I have not changed any of my arguments, I have simply thrown in new arguments to debunk your continuing litany of horse sh--. I NEVER suggested that the QB wins games, you did. I simply stated Vick would make us better, and to that I hold.

 

The only response that would be acceptable and that I would not have to respond to would be "Yes, Mr. SouthGeorgiaBillsFan, your knowledge and understanding of the dynamics of the game far exceeds my own, and therefore I will not pollute this thread with my nonsense any longer." There is of course option B, which is you provide an argument with merit. But I really don't see that as forthcoming, so...

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

Maybe it's because so few people agree with that demonstrably false statement. Look, we just kissed goodbye a "mobile, athletic scrambler with a big arm".

 

For a mobile guy, Vick took a ton of sacks. He has relatively low Ints because nobody could catch his errant throws. His main target was his TE because he never knew where his primary receiver was---hence, most drop backs ended as a toss to Crumpler or, more commonly, Vick just taking off.

 

 

????

 

Vick started out 11-5. His next two seasons saw 8-8 and 7-9. As soon as they got rid of him and got a decent QB (a rookie....from Boston College), they were right back to 11-5 and in the playoffs.

 

I'm sure the fans of the Falcons truly miss all that "tremendous success" that Vick brought them.

 

In the context of my post it was clearly evident that I was referring to the tremendous success of their running game. I like how you Vick haters conveniently leave out any context that gives meaning contrary to your argument. As far as his relatively low INTs, it seems his receivers were catching more of his "errant throws" for touchdowns than defenders were intercepting, which last I checked, is a good thing. And for the record, Vick's Rookie season was 2001 and the Falcons finished 7-9. They followed that with 9-6-1 and 5-11 in 02 & 03, before finally breaking through in 04 with an 11-5 mark. So I guess that was your credibility I just heard swirling down the toilet. Next please.

[Booster4324]

When did my argument change? Can you quote my words where I stated Vick should be our starting QB? I considered it to be obvious that ANY team would only consider him to be a backup this year, and I thought everyone else did as well. I still flat out stated that Vick makes the Bills better, and I hold to that, because our backup situation is one of our biggest flaws as a team. So there is no contradiction there. I have not changed any of my arguments, I have simply thrown in new arguments to debunk your continuing litany of horse sh--. I NEVER suggested that the QB wins games, you did. I simply stated Vick would make us better, and to that I hold.

 

The only response that would be acceptable and that I would not have to respond to would be "Yes, Mr. SouthGeorgiaBillsFan, your knowledge and understanding of the dynamics of the game far exceeds my own, and therefore I will not pollute this thread with my nonsense any longer." There is of course option B, which is you provide an argument with merit. But I really don't see that as forthcoming, so...

 

You also keep misrepresenting the facts about the type of dogs killed by Michael Vick and never bother to respond to evidence that proves you are wrong.

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

You also keep misrepresenting the facts about the type of dogs killed by Michael Vick and never bother to respond to evidence that proves you are wrong.

 

I didn't see the evidence, but you can gladly post it here again and I will look at it. But if you are suggesting he was fighting poodles, then I'd have to say you are the one misrepresenting the facts. Every article I've read mentions only one breed of dogs - pit bulls. So uh..I'm not sure what your saying but please feel free to resubmit whatever post I missed that you are referring to (I actually looked back through this thread and couldn't find anything - perhaps I just overlooked it?)

 

For the record, a google search of "Michael Vick Dogs" yields page after page of pictures of different dogs - every one of which is a pit bull. Perhaps I missed the boat but I'm going to need some conclusive evidence otherwise before I'll grant that, so again, please resubmit your evidence if you don't mind.

[Mr. WEO]

In the context of my post it was clearly evident that I was referring to the tremendous success of their running game. I like how you Vick haters conveniently leave out any context that gives meaning contrary to your argument. As far as his relatively low INTs, it seems his receivers were catching more of his "errant throws" for touchdowns than defenders were intercepting, which last I checked, is a good thing. And for the record, Vick's Rookie season was 2001 and the Falcons finished 7-9. They followed that with 9-6 and 5-11 in 02 & 03, before finally breaking through in 04 with an 11-5 mark. So I guess that was your credibility I just heard swirling down the toilet. Next please.

I am well aware of when Vick's career started (he hardly played in 2001 and 2003, son)---my ("clearly evident in the context of my post") point was that he, at his peak, had an took an 11-5 team and turned it into a 7-9 team as he padded his rushing stats with over 1000 yards in 2006. Meanwhile, his passing game was the worst in the NFL.

 

So what? What good is it if your QB rushes for over 1000 yards? His offense ranked 25th in points scored. We had a better offense last year.

 

 

Next you'll be telling us all about the "tremendous success" of the Barry Sanders Lions.

[Booster4324]

I didn't see the evidence, but you can gladly post it here again and I will look at it. But if you are suggesting he was fighting poodles, then I'd have to say you are the one misrepresenting the facts. Every article I've read mentions only one breed of dogs - pit bulls. So uh..I'm not sure what your saying but please feel free to resubmit whatever post I missed that you are referring to (I actually looked back through this thread and couldn't find anything - perhaps I just overlooked it?)

 

For the record, a google search of "Michael Vick Dogs" yields page after page of pictures of different dogs - every one of which is a pit bull. Perhaps I missed the boat but I'm going to need some conclusive evidence otherwise before I'll grant that, so again, please resubmit your evidence if you don't mind.

 

http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?s=&am...t&p=1505498

 

And http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football...ained_fami.html because another link was broken.

[HurlyBurly51]

No need to get all caught up in the Vick debate, as he will never be a Bill. Now that there are numerous teams vying for his services, no way does Buffalo win that "sweepstakes." Hell, if we were the only NFL option for him, we'd still probably lose out to the UFL.

[The Dean]

I didn't see the evidence, but you can gladly post it here again and I will look at it. But if you are suggesting he was fighting poodles, then I'd have to say you are the one misrepresenting the facts. Every article I've read mentions only one breed of dogs - pit bulls.

 

 

Aye aye aye.

 

Dog breeders steal dogs to use in training. They are not the dogs they use to fight, and wager on. They are the dogs they use to train the fighting dogs.

[The Dean]

http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?s=&am...t&p=1505498

 

And http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football...ained_fami.html because another link was broken.

 

 

Good articles, that support when everyone should know. THAT is how dog fighting operations work. It would only be surprising if they didn't use family dogs.

 

But it isn't as if any of the dogs chose this life. They are all innocent victims of a very sick and twisted group of monsters.

[buffaloaggie]

Also, Roddy White played with MV in only his first two seasons in the NFL - 2005 & 2006 - during that time are you saying he was a premier receiver? That would be a flagrantly unsubstantiated statement.

I don't think anyone said Roddy White was a premier receiver with Vick. The fact is Vick often looked for Crumpler only, so the WRs were afterthoughts in the offense. He has no touch when throwing the ball. The fact that Matt Ryan AND Joey Harrington/Chris Redman were all able to get Roddy White the ball just shows how bad Vick is. He zeros in on one receiver (Crumpler at the time) and does not know how to check down. He drills the ball in when he doesn't have to, resulting in many dropped balls. Ryan is a successful QB working with pretty much the same receivers that Vick had his final year with the Falcons and he is getting the job done passing.

 

Vick is nothing to Falcon fans. They have Matt Ryan, who they are happy with and he is WAY less likely to do anything stupid like pitbull fighting, smoking weed or flipping off fans. Fans are doing just fine with a team that just went 11-5 and they have forgotten about Vick and his "tremendous success" as you infer.

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?s=&am...t&p=1505498

 

And http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football...ained_fami.html because another link was broken.

 

Thanks for the response, sorry I missed it originally. So perhaps they would have lived otherwise - those specific dogs anyway, if not for MV's dog fighting operation. Concession granted, on that point. I still find it horribly irresponsible that people would deem a pit bull a suitable family pet - I've known several people who have been attacked by their own, supposedly non-violent, pit bulls. A guy I worked and his wife were mauled by his three pit bulls, and he claims they had never so much as snapped at anyone. It actually led to his divorce, as his wife had repeatedly stated that she was uncomfortable having the dogs running around in the yard prior to the attack. My cousin was attacked by my uncle's pit bull when she was four and still bears a scar on her face, and he was the epitome of the "family dog" - had never had a single aggressive behavior before that. I myself was attacked by my neighbors pit, that I petted and played with every day. The dog damn near castrated me: I had two holes in my scrotum(luckily he only caught the skin and didn't get any tissue), one in my leg, and the other in my pinky knuckle where I had jammed it into his maw. I hate to think what would have happened if not for my quick reflexes They are an unpredictable breed, which isn't uncommon for dogs. The main difference between a pit bull and a lab is that a lab doesn't have throat rending jaw power. But in MV's case, it wasn't like he was pitting Lassie against Old Yeller in a match to the death

 

All that being said, I still think this is really a non-issue. The guy fought some pit bulls, which are a species of dog that has been bred to fight and kill for centuries. I fail to see what the big deal is here. I understand it is violent for the sake of entertainment, but so is MMA, and football for that matter. I mean at least he wasn't fighting gladiators against each other to the death for the enjoyment of the masses. I understand that it hurts the dogs - but in reality, dogs fight anyway of their own accord, especially pit bulls, and hurt each other, all the time - even family dogs. I personally don't see any problem with placing a wager on that from time to time. But even if I did, I still feel like MV's punishment was more than adequate for his crime, and as long as he doesn't engage in that behavior again, I don't see how anyone has the right to continue holding it against him. If he did engage in dog fighting again, I personally would not care, but at the same time I wouldn't try to convince anyone else the Bills should consider signing him either. All I'm saying is that the guy should get another chance to be an athlete. After all, Mike Tyson did, and the Bills could certainly benefit from having him on the roster (Vick, not Tyson ).

[Turn Down For Watkins]

I guess there was a Vick sighting in Chicago per PFT. Link

[Like A Mofo]

I guess there was a Vick sighting in Chicago per PFT. Link

 

 

Was Marv there to pick him up at the airport?

[Fan in Chicago]

When did my argument change? Can you quote my words where I stated Vick should be our starting QB? I considered it to be obvious that ANY team would only consider him to be a backup this year, and I thought everyone else did as well. I still flat out stated that Vick makes the Bills better, and I hold to that, because our backup situation is one of our biggest flaws as a team. So there is no contradiction there. I have not changed any of my arguments, I have simply thrown in new arguments to debunk your continuing litany of horse sh--. I NEVER suggested that the QB wins games, you did. I simply stated Vick would make us better, and to that I hold.

 

The only response that would be acceptable and that I would not have to respond to would be "Yes, Mr. SouthGeorgiaBillsFan, your knowledge and understanding of the dynamics of the game far exceeds my own, and therefore I will not pollute this thread with my nonsense any longer." There is of course option B, which is you provide an argument with merit. But I really don't see that as forthcoming, so...

 

You refuse to acknowledge what I first state and ask me the same question back. I explained in my previous posts where you have been changing arguments.

It is apparent that you are more interested name calling than engaging in a debate which sticks to the point and is supported by facts. So, this is my last response to you in this thread.

 

Have fun imagining that you 'won' this argument.

[shibuya]

If you want the Bills ot move out of Buffalo faster then by all means sign Vick

 

but I guarentee that season ticket holders start to cancel and next years renewals will be in the toilet

 

Most Buffalonians actually have integrity, the rest of you pro-vick clowns have none.

 

I for one will never route or watch another Bills game if vick is signed, anbd I know of many who feel the same way

 

so be careful what you wish for....

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

I don't think anyone said Roddy White was a premier receiver with Vick. The fact is Vick often looked for Crumpler only, so the WRs were afterthoughts in the offense. He has no touch when throwing the ball. The fact that Matt Ryan AND Joey Harrington/Chris Redman were all able to get Roddy White the ball just shows how bad Vick is. He zeros in on one receiver (Crumpler at the time) and does not know how to check down. He drills the ball in when he doesn't have to, resulting in many dropped balls. Ryan is a successful QB working with pretty much the same receivers that Vick had his final year with the Falcons and he is getting the job done passing.

 

Vick is nothing to Falcon fans. They have Matt Ryan, who they are happy with and he is WAY less likely to do anything stupid like pitbull fighting, smoking weed or flipping off fans. Fans are doing just fine with a team that just went 11-5 and they have forgotten about Vick and his "tremendous success" as you infer.

 

We will see what the Falcon's record is at the end of the season. We will see how often Matt Ryan finds Roddy White now that he's got big Tony to look for. Keep in mind, as of yet, Matt Ryan, for all his attention, has yet to surpass anything Vick did for the Falcons. Vick has won a playoff game, and made the Pro Bowl twice, neither of which Ryan can yet claim (I am almost certain that will change before his career ends though) And once again, I stated that Vick was a factor in the tremendous success of the RUNNING GAME, which yes, was actually opened up because of Vick's ability to scramble and the conundrum that places on a defense. My point is it would be so nice to have that conundrum to rely upon should TE get injured. It would be much nicer than say...the conundrum Ryan Fitzpatrick will place on the Bills should he ever need to enter the game.

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

If you want the Bills ot move out of Buffalo faster then by all means sign Vick

 

but I guarentee that season ticket holders start to cancel and next years renewals will be in the toilet

 

Most Buffalonians actually have integrity, the rest of you pro-vick clowns have none.

 

I for one will never route or watch another Bills game if vick is signed, anbd I know of many who feel the same way

 

so be careful what you wish for....

 

I think you are unsure of what the word integrity means. Integrity is not the practice of continuing to pass sanctimonious and unfounded judgment against a man that, whom according to the law and a jury of his peers, has served his punishment for his crime. Integrity does not mean pretending that you're high and mighty and never done anything worse that fight dogs against each other, because I'm positive most of us have. And integrity is not pretending that you speak for the majority of Bills fans. I predict that less than 1% of season ticket holders will cancel their tickets. After all, you are the same bunch of clowns who swore to do the same if they retained DJ...and yet...do you have season tickets? Get real.

[The Dean]

We will see what the Falcon's record is at the end of the season. We will see how often Matt Ryan finds Roddy White now that he's got big Tony to look for. Keep in mind, as of yet, Matt Ryan, for all his attention, has yet to surpass anything Vick did for the Falcons.

 

 

He surpassed Vick by a mile. In Ryan's first year, he threw for more yards than Vick ever did in a season, had a completion percentage Vick can only dream of, had a QB rating in excess of any Vick attained.

 

Ryan helped the Falcons make the playoffs in his rookie year. Vick didn't do that, either.

 

The Falcons can now operate in a steady manner, using all their tools. No coach in his right mind would ever trade what the Falcons have now for what they had with Vick.

[Booster4324]

But in MV's case, it wasn't like he was pitting Lassie against Old Yeller in a match to the death

 

No, he threw Lassie to a pit bull to teach the pit bull to fight. Then stood there and laughed when the pit bull killed Lassie.