BillsFan Trapped in Pats Land Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 My prediction all along for the Bills has been an "improved" 7-9. I'll still stand by that, but if I were to adjust, I would go downward in the win column. Am I crazy that I don't think the Jets can win 5 games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 My prediction all along for the Bills has been an "improved" 7-9. I'll still stand by that, but if I were to adjust, I would go downward in the win column. Â Tim Graham, Hindsight is always twenty-twenty. But if the Bills had any foresight they could have signed Jason Peters to a major deal and defrayed a large portion of that cost with the releasing of Dockery and Walker. With that wishful scenario the Bills could have had a more credible offensive line and given the young qb, Edwards, a better opportunity to succeed. In addition, instead of rushing Bell into the critical LT spot that he probably isn't prepared to handle right away, he could have been eased into the line. Â My fear right now is twofold. It is going to take some time for the young players to get acclimated and the line is very thin without much depth. Letting Peters go set off a chain of negative actions along the line. One consolation is that I thiink that rookie guard, Woods, is going to be a very good player for a very long time. In fact I believe that in very short time he is going to be our best player on the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Tim Graham, Hindsight is always twenty-twenty. But if the Bills had any foresight they could have signed Jason Peters to a major deal and defrayed a large portion of that cost with the releasing of Dockery and Walker. With that wishful scenario the Bills could have had a more credible offensive line and given the young qb, Edwards, a better opportunity to succeed. In addition, instead of rushing Bell into the critical LT spot that he probably isn't prepared to handle right away, he could have been eased into the line. Â My fear right now is twofold. It is going to take some time for the young players to get acclimated and the line is very thin without much depth. Letting Peters go set off a chain of negative actions along the line. One consolation is that I thiink that rookie guard, Woods, is going to be a very good player for a very long time. In fact I believe that in very short time he is going to be our best player on the line. What I find pretty amazing is that they somehow concluded that Langston was so good (as did many, many now silent posters hereabouts) that he could make the move to LT only to later decide that he was so bad, he wasn't even worth keeping on the roster. Decisional whiplash. Who decided he could play LT and how did we go from that brialliant move to this one? Can you imagine that meeting? What did the person or persons responsible say? "Whoops"? "My bad"? "Sorry, heh, heh, don't know what I was thinking..."? Â Oh well, I always thought this was a year to reload and so it makes sense to get these guys as much game experience as possible and quicken the day that they will be seasoned vets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 What I find pretty amazing is that they somehow concluded that Langston was so good (as did many, many now silent posters hereabouts) that he could make the move to LT only to later decide that he was so bad, he wasn't even worth keeping on the roster. Decisional whiplash. Who decided he could play LT and how did we go from that brialliant move to this one? Can you imagine that meeting? What did the person or persons responsible say? "Whoops"? "My bad"? "Sorry, heh, heh, don't know what I was thinking..."? Oh well, I always thought this was a year to reload and so it makes sense to get these guys as much game experience as possible and quicken the day that they will be seasoned vets.  Mickey, It was an idiotic idea in the first place to believe a lumbering, adequate RT be able to assume the LT spot vacated by Peters. As I have stated in prior postings the issue isn't so much the decision to trade Peters as it is not having a credible fall back position when he was traded. There were some short term and imperfect options to hold the fort until a permanent solution could have been found.  A lot of people understandably direct their wrath toward Jauron. But the major flaw in the organization, besides the caliber of ownership, lies in the amateurish front office. What is remarkable is that the leadership of the front office, brought in by Donahoe, has been in place for a decade. Pitiful, just pitiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Mickey, It was an idiotic idea in the first place to believe a lumbering, adequate RT be able to assume the LT spot vacated by Peters. As I have stated in prior postings the issue isn't so much the decision to trade Peters as it is not having a credible fall back position when he was traded. There were some short term and imperfect options to hold the fort until a permanent solution could have been found. Â A lot of people understandably direct their wrath toward Jauron. But the major flaw in the organization, besides the caliber of ownership, lies in the amateurish front office. What is remarkable is that the leadership of the front office, brought in by Donahoe, has been in place for a decade. Pitiful, just pitiful. I have been critical, in a loving way , of the front office since Brandon's press conference calling Peters out at the start of camp in '08. I have also been very critical of their "plan", consisting as it did of so many different gambles, to retoole the offensive line. I was descended upon by the usual gang of flying monkeys around here and though I think time and recent events have validated my opinions, I sorta wish I had been wrong. Â The bright side is that either this team will exceed our fairly low expections which means enough wins to be enjoyable and if they don't, it means a high draft pick and a new coaching staff. Win or lose, I am going to just try to enjoy watching Maybin, Wood, Levitre and now, Bell learn the game and hopefully, give us a little taste of a brighter future to come. Â Come on, sing it with me, "We shall overco--o--ome, we shall overcome---some---day" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimGraham Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 We're not going to know the real winner of the Peters trade for a few years, but it doesn't look good for the Bills right now. One of their planks was Langston Walker at left tackle. Â They've saved a lot of money, so that's a plus. Now Bell, Wood and Nelson need to help them win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUFFALOTONE Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 We're not going to know the real winner of the Peters trade for a few years, but it doesn't look good for the Bills right now. One of their planks was Langston Walker at left tackle. Â They've saved a lot of money, so that's a plus. Now Bell, Wood and Nelson need to help them win. Â Peters was a talent and still may be. But I have never seen a player mentally deteriorate in such a short amount of time as Peters did. His arrogance was unheard of, I have never seen a player over estimate his sense of self with more than Peters has. He had 2 good years and gets compensated for it then proceeds to lead the league in sacks given up. And to be honest if he only gave up 5 it was way too many. So we can all save this it wasn't his fault every time. Â I am glad he is gone, just like anything else in life would you want somebody apart of something that's important to you that does not want to be here? This organization is in utter disarray and no one is denying that. But getting rid of Peters in MY OPINION is a step in the right direction. We have already won Tim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastMode54 Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Peters was a talent and still may be. But I have never seen a player mentally deteriorate in such a short amount of time as Peters did. His arrogance was unheard of, I have never seen a player over estimate his sense of self with more than Peters has. He had 2 good years and gets compensated for it then proceeds to lead the league in sacks given up. And to be honest if he only gave up 5 it was way too many. So we can all save this it wasn't his fault every time. I am glad he is gone, just like anything else in life would you want somebody apart of something that's important to you that does not want to be here? This organization is in utter disarray and no one is denying that. But getting rid of Peters in MY OPINION is a step in the right direction. We have already won Tim.  Had the Bills FO not royally screwed up almost 3 years ago with Peters he'd still be on the team and we'd be better off. Dockery and Walker get paid and they won't give him a raise. Him making the Pro Bowl last year really hurt us, but he should have been given a raise as soon as he moved to the left side and played well. Just another genious move by our FO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUFFALOTONE Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Had the Bills FO not royally screwed up almost 3 years ago with Peters he'd still be on the team and we'd be better off. Dockery and Walker get paid and they won't give him a raise. Him making the Pro Bowl last year really hurt us, but he should have been given a raise as soon as he moved to the left side and played well. Just another genious move by our FO Â He was given a 5 year contract and signed it. What else were they supposed to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Tim, Â How much do you think that Langston Walker's attitude affected his performance and, ultimately, his release? Was it your perception that he played like his spot on the team was on the line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastMode54 Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 He was given a 5 year contract and signed it. What else were they supposed to do? Â Pay him left tackle money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUFFALOTONE Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Pay him left tackle money After 1 year?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastMode54 Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 If not one then definitely after 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 We're not going to know the real winner of the Peters trade for a few years, but it doesn't look good for the Bills right now. One of their planks was Langston Walker at left tackle. Â They've saved a lot of money, so that's a plus. Now Bell, Wood and Nelson need to help them win. Â Tim Graham, The problem with your explanation that the organization is "saving money" is that it doesn't get invested back into the improvement of the roster or a credible front office and coaching staff. A slice of the windfall that Ralph Wilson hustled from the Toronto group didn't go back into the team or restaffing the incompetent front office. Â The Bills developed DT Pat Williams. When his contract was coming up for renewal he was allowed to leave and play at an all-pro level for another team. The same scenario played out with Peters. What happens if Bell develops over the next few years into a very fine LT. Are the Bills going to pay the high going rate for the critical LT spot? I'm not confident about that. Although he didn't get much recognition London Fletcher was one of the most effective defensive players on our roster. He was let go for the simple reason that the Bills were not going to pay him at the rate his performance called for. Â The Bills have been bad for a decade. Teams with strong front offices could undgo three separate rebuilding cycles over a period of a decade. The Bills haven't been able to do it. There are obvious reasons for their inability to do so. They aren't as adept at identifying talent in the college and pro ranks as most other franchises. In addition, they don't add talent, they merely replace it. Â I have said it on numerous occasions that the Bills will never succeed while Ralph Wilson is the owner. The irony is that Ralph, even in a small market, is in solid shape to compete with the Big Boys (Dallas, Washington etc) because he has little or no debt within the franchise. Assuming the next owner stays in the area the new owner will have to factor in the debt load when managing the franchise. Ralph Wilson has a free ride. What he gets, he pockets. Not a bad deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
first_and_ten Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Oh well, I always thought this was a year to reload and so it makes sense to get these guys as much game experience as possible and quicken the day that they will be seasoned vets. Â Reload? Refresh my memory. When were we loaded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EC-Bills Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Tim, there have been no bombshells dropped from OBD in the last couple of days. They were going at a good pace of late. Can you call over and make sure everything is okay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 What I find pretty amazing is that they somehow concluded that Langston was so good (as did many, many now silent posters hereabouts) that he could make the move to LT only to later decide that he was so bad, he wasn't even worth keeping on the roster. Decisional whiplash. Who decided he could play LT and how did we go from that brialliant move to this one? Can you imagine that meeting? What did the person or persons responsible say? "Whoops"? "My bad"? "Sorry, heh, heh, don't know what I was thinking..."? Oh well, I always thought this was a year to reload and so it makes sense to get these guys as much game experience as possible and quicken the day that they will be seasoned vets.   I had the same reaction. The explanation for the move actually makes some sense, though.  Based on his limited time playing LT last year (at a reasonable level), the Bills concluded he could fill the gap, if the interior OL was strengthened. I can understand that thinking.  It became clear to them, based on the last two/three preseason games, he was not up the task. His skills had actually diminished quite a bit, from last year. But the biggest issue with his play, was his inability to handle the no-huddle pace. If they are committed to the no-huddle, he would be unable to play either tackle position. So his dismissal makes some sense there, too.  I would have expected the OL line coach to get a handle on that during training camp, though. Perhaps the problem didn't fully reveal itself until more extended action in the later preseason games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 What I find pretty amazing is that they somehow concluded that Langston was so good (as did many, many now silent posters hereabouts) that he could make the move to LT only to later decide that he was so bad, he wasn't even worth keeping on the roster. Decisional whiplash. Who decided he could play LT and how did we go from that brialliant move to this one? Can you imagine that meeting? What did the person or persons responsible say? "Whoops"? "My bad"? "Sorry, heh, heh, don't know what I was thinking..."? Oh well, I always thought this was a year to reload and so it makes sense to get these guys as much game experience as possible and quicken the day that they will be seasoned vets. And what I find pretty amazing is the # of idiots who have pronounced Demetrius Bell a total failure, while already annointing St. Jason to Pro Bowl status - before either has played a down this season - in their frantic rush to say "I told you so!"  I swear, Buffalo's Adam Mickeiwicz Dramatic Circle (aka 'Mickey's') must be named after you. Come back and talk to us after Bell's debut, and after Julius Peppers owns FatBoy today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimGraham Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 And what I find pretty amazing is the # of idiots who have pronounced Demetrius Bell a total failure, while already annointing St. Jason to Pro Bowl status - before either has played a down this season - in their frantic rush to say "I told you so!" Â I swear, Buffalo's Adam Mickeiwicz Dramatic Circle (aka 'Mickey's') must be named after you. Come back and talk to us after Bell's debut, and after Julius Peppers owns FatBoy today. Â You and I must not check out the same Stadium Wall message board because the vast majority of people here have called Peters overrated and insisted moving Walker to left tackle would make the offensive line superior to last year's unit. Â I think folks here have been taking a more reasonable, wait-and-see approach to Demetrius Bell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Peters was a talent and still may be. But I have never seen a player mentally deteriorate in such a short amount of time as Peters did. His arrogance was unheard of, I have never seen a player over estimate his sense of self with more than Peters has. He had 2 good years and gets compensated for it then proceeds to lead the league in sacks given up. And to be honest if he only gave up 5 it was way too many. So we can all save this it wasn't his fault every time. I am glad he is gone, just like anything else in life would you want somebody apart of something that's important to you that does not want to be here? This organization is in utter disarray and no one is denying that. But getting rid of Peters in MY OPINION is a step in the right direction. We have already won Tim.    He had one bad year. Every year where he has come to camp, he has been terrific. And he was much better late last year than early. Most of the sacks came early.  Also, you're saying he didn't want to be here as if it was a fact, when it makes just as much if not more sense to figure that he just wanted the best contract he could get, and and that he was willing to go elsewhere or stay in Buffalo to get it.  Anyway, we'll see how he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 He was given a 5 year contract and signed it. What else were they supposed to do? Â Â Gee, tough one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Pay him left tackle money   Oh, yeah, not so tough after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted September 13, 2009 Author Share Posted September 13, 2009 You and I must not check out the same Stadium Wall message board because the vast majority of people here have called Peters overrated and insisted moving Walker to left tackle would make the offensive line superior to last year's unit. Hell hath no fury like a woman Bills fan scorned ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Hell hath no fury like a woman Bills fan scorned ... Â Lori, Just think, the Bills front office cut overpayed and underperforming Dockery and Walker. With the savings from those two departed players the front office could easily have absorbed a "market rate" contract for Peters. As the team gets worse the profit margin gets bigger. Â Another view on the Walker situation is that they could have moved him back to the RT spot. move Butler back to guard and then play Woods at the other guard position. In that way the line wouldn't be so young and raw. The reality is that this chickenpoop organization values downsizing on the contracts rather fielding a credible team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Lori, Just think, the Bills front office cut overpayed and underperforming Dockery and Walker. With the savings from those two departed players the front office could easily have absorbed a "market rate" contract for Peters. As the team gets worse the profit margin gets bigger. Â Another view on the Walker situation is that they could have moved him back to the RT spot. move Butler back to guard and then play Woods at the other guard position. In that way the line wouldn't be so young and raw. The reality is that this chickenpoop organization values downsizing on the contracts rather fielding a credible team. Â Â The chance for the Bills to get Peters at the market rate was long passed, by this offseason. Peters wasn't looking for market-rate $$ from the Bills, he wanted to be gone. The Bills would have had to pay Peters what the Eagles paid him, or perhaps more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 The chance for the Bills to get Peters at the market rate was long passed, by this offseason. Peters wasn't looking for market-rate $$ from the Bills, he wanted to be gone. The Bills would have had to pay Peters what the Eagles paid him, or perhaps more. You all assume Peters would even be motivated to play with the Bills anymore. Joining a SB contender does wonders. Â PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 You all assume Peters would even be motivated to play with the Bills anymore. Joining a SB contender does wonders. PTR   What?  Who said anything about Peters wanting to come back to the Bills after playing for Philly?  I'm confused.  I don't think Peters was motivated to play for the Bills after last summer's holdout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share Posted September 14, 2009 Do we really need to make this yet another Peters thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 What? Who said anything about Peters wanting to come back to the Bills after playing for Philly?  I'm confused.  I don't think Peters was motivated to play for the Bills after last summer's holdout. Sorry. I meant that there was no guarentee you would get Peter's best in Buffalo even if we caved into his extortion demands. Going to a new team probably motivated him to actually give a crap for once.  By the way I'm watching ch.4's Pats/Bills preview and they just showed several plays where Edwards gets creamed after Peters got beat. Say what you will, you'd have to have your head examined to pay $11M/yr to a player who sucked as bad as Peters did in 2008 AND quit on your team to boot. Yes, he may be god's gift to football, but he quit on your team when he played for you. I still say !@#$ Peters.  PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 The chance for the Bills to get Peters at the market rate was long passed, by this offseason. Peters wasn't looking for market-rate $$ from the Bills, he wanted to be gone. The Bills would have had to pay Peters what the Eagles paid him, or perhaps more. Â Â No, we would have had to pay what the Eagles paid him? Really? Â (Turn off my eensy little bit of sarcasm.) Â That was market rate. You're right, that's what we would have had to pay him. Â Â Do we really need to make this yet another Peters thread? Â Â Â Ha ha ha. Fair enough, Lori, I'll shut up, even though I'm aching to reply to Promo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUFFALOTONE Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 He had one bad year. Every year where he has come to camp, he has been terrific. And he was much better late last year than early. Most of the sacks came early. Also, you're saying he didn't want to be here as if it was a fact, when it makes just as much if not more sense to figure that he just wanted the best contract he could get, and and that he was willing to go elsewhere or stay in Buffalo to get it.  Anyway, we'll see how he does.  He said it in an article, "I did not want to re-up with Buffalo." I let them know that I did not want to be here after my contract is up.  It doesn't get more clear than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUFFALOTONE Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Tim, Â If the coaching staff was going to implement a no huddle offense with a brand new OL and a slow to turtle like Walker at LT, why didn't they have Bell in there from the beginning? Â You let him cut his teeth against Vanden Bosch and Harrison. Move Walker back to RT and let Butler and Chamber split time. Â After they traded Peters were they to sacred to come out and say Bell will be our guy going forward and we have all the faith in him? Or are they making Walker the scapegoat by saying he wasn't good enough so we are inserting Bell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Please limit the side banter, as this topic is geared towards give and take with Tim. He shouldn't have to weed through 50+ new posts only to find one or two that has to do with a question or a rebuttal to him. Â Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acantha Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Now that the season's started, might be time for 3.0. Â Maybe it can start with...... Â So Tim, whatcha think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sen. John Blutarsky Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Dear Tim, Â Why do we do this to ourselves time after time after time? Â Sincerely, Â Us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Tim-With LB depth limited to UDFA's, and late round picks, do the Bills go shopping at the clearance rack now that veteran salaries aren't guaranteed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimGraham Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Sorry I wasn't around after the game. It was a late finish and deadlines took precedence. Â Tuesday was a travel day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimGraham Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Dear Tim,  Why do we do this to ourselves time after time after time?  Sincerely,  Us  I grew up in Cleveland. You're not alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimGraham Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Tim-With LB depth limited to UDFA's, and late round picks, do the Bills go shopping at the clearance rack now that veteran salaries aren't guaranteed? Â I think they might have to. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds because other teams need linebacker help, too. Â The Bills will be competing for whatever guys are available. Think they'll sign with the Patriots, Bears or Bills? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JÂy RÛßeÒ Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Tim, you coming out to Rochester for Garbage Plates on Friday? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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