Major Plane Crash in Clarence Center (50 dead)

[Jim in Anchorage]

That's true. The posts where the wipers are mounted are always prone to early icing and since the Pilot's can't see the wings, without going back into the cabin and looking out a window, the wiper post is a very useful visual indicator of ice accumulation.

 

Even if Anti-ice was on, and I have to believe that it was, it won't provide unlimited protection. That's why you never fly into "known" icing conditions for any length of time. American lost an ATR (high wing Turbo Prop.) in Indiana, that was put into a holding pattern in icing conditions. After that accident American shifted all the ATR's down South to limit their potential exposure to serious icing conditions. Despite that crash, no rules were ever adopted to keep aircraft out of icing conditions. FedEx just lost an ATR last week in Lubbock Texas, that could have been caused by ice.

 

The FAA and more recently the NTSB are becomming so politicized that even when the final cause is known, the chances of preventive rules being enacted are going to be very slim.

Any competent pilot should be able to detect severe icing without looking at the wing. Or out the window,for that matter.

[Marv's Neighbor]

Any competent pilot should be able to detect severe icing without looking at the wing. Or out the window,for that matter.

It totally depends on their training, experience and Company Ops Procedures. The NTSB files are full of dead "competent pilots."

[Jim in Anchorage]

It totally depends on their training, experience and Company Ops Procedures. The NTSB files are full of dead "competent pilots."

I am not a commercial pilot, but I am a pilot. I am just guessing of course but my thought is they were relying on the auto pilot. Unlike manual control,they did not notice more power and elevator was required to maintain a given altitude and speed,sure give aways of icing. Just a guess.

[bbb]

Is there a list of the passengers yet? I don't see the partial list on the News site anymore.

[keepthefaith]

I am not a commercial pilot, but I am a pilot. I am just guessing of course but my thought is they were relying on the auto pilot. Unlike manual control,they did not notice more power and elevator was required to maintain a given altitude and speed,sure give aways of icing. Just a guess.

 

Could be and the margin for error at approach speed is far less. Might be just a bad combination of timing and circumstances. Tragic any way you look at it.

[bills44]

Is there a list of the passengers yet? I don't see the partial list on the News site anymore.

 

still no complete list.

 

Here's the partial list:

 

http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/578574.html?imw=Y

[Tcali]

still no complete list.

 

Here's the partial list:

 

http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/578574.html?imw=Y

4 in one family. horrible.

[Steely Dan]

Two who missed the flight.

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

Two who missed the flight.

 

Hopefully survivors guilt doesn't strike those two too badly. Mariano Rivera missed a doomed flight to Panama in 2001 and he says that he still thinks about it every day of his life.

[Steely Dan]

Hopefully survivors guilt doesn't strike those two too badly. Mariano Rivera missed a doomed flight to Panama in 2001 and he says that he still thinks about it every day of his life.

 

Family Guy creator Seth McFarlane missed the flight that hit the North Tower. How he missed it is really freaky.

 

On the morning of the September 11, 2001 attacks, MacFarlane was scheduled to return to Los Angeles on American Airlines Flight 11 from Boston, Massachusetts, after delivering a keynote speech at his alma mater. MacFarlane has stated his travel agent gave him an incorrect departure time (8:15 a.m. instead of 7:45 a.m.) and that he was suffering from a hangover from the previous night’s celebrations. As a result, he arrived at Logan International Airport sometime around 7:30 and was unable to board the flight. Fifteen minutes after departure, American Airlines Flight 11 was hijacked, and at 8:46 a.m. was flown into the North Tower of the World Trade Center in New York City, with no survivors

 

Man, you have to think God is a "Family Guy" fan. I wonder what McFarlane thinks about that. I'd bet he was really pissed at his travel agent until he heard about the hijacking and crash. The whole thing must really freak him out.

[Indy Dave]

Lorin Maurer was one of our interns a few years ago...a bright young woman with a warm personality and destined for success. She was working for Princeton University and on her way to Buffalo to meet her boyfriend, who is an assistant men's basketball coach at Butler. His brother lives in Buffalo and got married yesterday. Lorin was to meet her boyfriend's parents for the first time this weekend. Instead...this.

 

A terrible tragedy for all involved, made worse because of the personal ties to one of the victims. RIP Lorin.

[Golden Wheels]

It seems that every day brings another sorrowful story about a victim, their family, and their friends. My heart goes out to them as well as the emergency personnel who have witnessed horrors none of us should ever see.

[davefan66]

I live 2 miles as the crow flies from the crash site. By the grace of God

I didn't know anyone who was on the flight. Due to my proximity to the

crash, I feel a huge loss, more than any other event except maybe 9/11.

 

God bless those who perished and my thoughts and prayers go out to

the family and friends of those who perished.

 

I am not a deeply religious person, but offer this that I found:

 

Lord Jesus, you are the master of life and death.

You said, “I am the resurrection and the life,” and this morning we believe this with all our hearts.

And, Lord, you know far more than we do what death is all about.

So we come to you in our pain and in our sadness.

Draw near, O Lord, for we desperately need your help.

[Steely Dan]

It's stunning that only one house was destroyed.

[Tcali]

I live 2 miles as the crow flies from the crash site. By the grace of God

I didn't know anyone who was on the flight. Due to my proximity to the

crash, I feel a huge loss, more than any other event except maybe 9/11.

 

God bless those who perished and my thoughts and prayers go out to

the family and friends of those who perished.

 

I am not a deeply religious person, but offer this that I found:

 

Lord Jesus, you are the master of life and death.

You said, “I am the resurrection and the life,” and this morning we believe this with all our hearts.

And, Lord, you know far more than we do what death is all about.

So we come to you in our pain and in our sadness.

Draw near, O Lord, for we desperately need your help.

 

AMEN

[Fan in San Diego]

It's stunning that only one house was destroyed.

 

Because the plane fell straight down from the sky, not on a horizontal angle.

 

I've seen the footage of these boots, the concept seems feeble at best, why can't they just heat the wing to keep it above freezing?

[keepthefaith]

Because the plane fell straight down from the sky, not on a horizontal angle.

 

I've seen the footage of these boots, the concept seems feeble at best, why can't they just heat the wing to keep it above freezing?

 

Agree. Jets have heated wings.

 

Can't imagine why these smaller planes don't. Cost cutting?

[truth on hold]

Heart felt prayers to all the victims and their families.

[Steely Dan]

Because the plane fell straight down from the sky, not on a horizontal angle.

 

I've seen the footage of these boots, the concept seems feeble at best, why can't they just heat the wing to keep it above freezing?

 

I meant in the larger scheme of things. How often do you hear about a residential plane crash only hitting one house. I never have.

[truth on hold]

I meant in the larger scheme of things. How often do you hear about a residential plane crash only hitting one house. I never have.

The circumstances just seem unusual to me. I'm not an expert but I don't recall any crash described quite like this before where 1 second everything's fine and they're communicating with the tower on landing instructions, and the next second the plane goes into a violent pitch and roll pattern. And within 26 seconds it's on the ground and hits only one house.

 

I can't believe this is the 1st time a plane flying into Buffalo experienced ice conditions of this degree.

 

I think either: a) the de-icer wasn't working and they didn't realize it so when they started lowering the landing gear or making some other change in preparation for landing, it interfered with the proper functioning; or b) the problem was with the auto-pilot system itself (which was reported to have been on) and may have had little or nothing to do with the weather. Perhaps it was an electrical/computer fail of the autopilot system that sent bad commands.

[Wacka]

I have read that the crew should disengage the autopilot every 5-10 minutes or so in conditions where icing may occur. Being on autopilot, the crew can't feel changes in handling that occur with the slow buildup of ice,. The autopilot disengaged and it was too late to recover.

[truth on hold]

I have read that the crew should disengage the autopilot every 5-10 minutes or so in conditions where icing may occur. Being on autopilot, the crew can't feel changes in handling that occur with the slow buildup of ice,. The autopilot disengaged and it was too late to recover.

Yeah, maybe they didn't realize the changes autopilot was making to keep it level. What causes a plane to pitch up and then down like it did?

[Steely Dan]

The circumstances just seem unusual to me. I'm not an expert but I don't recall any crash described quite like this before where 1 second everything's fine and they're communicating with the tower on landing instructions, and the next second the plane goes into a violent pitch and roll pattern. And within 26 seconds it's on the ground and hits only one house.

 

I can't believe this is the 1st time a plane flying into Buffalo experienced ice conditions of this degree.

 

I think either: a) the de-icer wasn't working and they didn't realize it so when they started lowering the landing gear or making some other change in preparation for landing, it interfered with the proper functioning; or b) the problem was with the auto-pilot system itself (which was reported to have been on) and may have had little or nothing to do with the weather. Perhaps it was an electrical/computer fail of the autopilot system that sent bad commands.

 

On the news they said the plane was on autopilot up until 26 seconds before landing and that those weather conditions forbid the use of autopilot at all. IIRC.

[AJ1]

On the news they said the plane was on autopilot up until 26 seconds before landing and that those weather conditions forbid the use of autopilot at all. IIRC.

 

10:1 pilot error will be named prime cause for 2 reasons.

 

1) For the senseless nearly 100% use of auto-pilot in wintry conditions.

 

and

 

2)Overreaction mis-control of aircraft once off auto-pilot.

 

I weight 1 as 90% of the error.

[truth on hold]

10:1 pilot error will be named prime cause for 2 reasons.

 

1) For the senseless nearly 100% use of auto-pilot in wintry conditions.

 

and

 

2)Overreaction mis-control of aircraft once off auto-pilot.

 

I weight 1 as 90% of the error.

So you think the pitch up was caused by the pilot pulling back too much? And then everything else was a reaction to this initial error?

[duey]

Hey...I'd like to give a shout out to all those sick, insenstive POS's who think it would be cool to sneak into the crash site to snap some pictures or take video. According to local police, this has been happening with shocking regularity, with some people even having been arrested. It never ceases to amaze me how some people get their rocks off at the expense of someone elses tragedy.

 

I truly hope that no one on this board has done such a thing...and if you know someone who did or is thinking about it...B word slap the motherf*ckers and tell them to get a life.

[Chandler#81]

My sister lives in Clarence Center and she just forwarded a link to sign a petition to get/request Extreme Home Makeover to rebuild the home where the plane hit and killed the father/husband. It's a small offering from the townflok so deeply involved and appears legit and worthwhile.

 

I don't think I'm/we're allowed to post the link here -or I would. Shouldn't be too difficult to look up. Otherwise PM me.

[stuckincincy]

My sister lives in Clarence Center and she just forwarded a link to sign a petition to get/request Extreme Home Makeover to rebuild the home where the plane hit and killed the father/husband. It's a small offering from the townflok so deeply involved and appears legit and worthwhile.

 

I don't think I'm/we're allowed to post the link here -or I would. Shouldn't be too difficult to look up. Otherwise PM me.

 

That family lived several years in the Greater Cinncinati area. The news stories, neighbors, here spoke of them as decent folk.

[PastaJoe]

My sister lives in Clarence Center and she just forwarded a link to sign a petition to get/request Extreme Home Makeover to rebuild the home where the plane hit and killed the father/husband. It's a small offering from the townflok so deeply involved and appears legit and worthwhile.

 

I don't think I'm/we're allowed to post the link here -or I would. Shouldn't be too difficult to look up. Otherwise PM me.

 

Would you want to rebuild on the spot that the crash occurred on, and the effect that hearing planes fly over the house would have? I would expect that the wife would want to move someplace where she would feel safe. Plus I would expect the combination of insurance and a payout from the airlines would pay for any rebuild.

[Chandler#81]

Excellent points, Joe. The community really is struggling with this, wanting to do something. Already over 22 thousand sigs, but a new home for them doesn't have to be built on the same lot -or town- for that matter..

[thebug]

My sister lives in Clarence Center and she just forwarded a link to sign a petition to get/request Extreme Home Makeover to rebuild the home where the plane hit and killed the father/husband. It's a small offering from the townflok so deeply involved and appears legit and worthwhile.

 

I don't think I'm/we're allowed to post the link here -or I would. Shouldn't be too difficult to look up. Otherwise PM me.

 

 

Awesome Idea.

[Fan in San Diego]

Agree. Jets have heated wings.

 

Can't imagine why these smaller planes don't. Cost cutting?

 

Don't know, having planes fall from the sky isn't good for business either.

[stuckincincy]

Don't know, having planes fall from the sky isn't good for business either.

 

Indeed.

 

There was some squaker here claimed that turboprop aircraft were dangerous. Perhaps he might recall the planes that the US Government uses as hurricane chasers, the planes used in the North Atlantic in running the USCG International Ice Patrol.

 

My ratings:

 

1. DC-3

2. C-130

3. B-52

4. Cessna 150 series

5. Anything else - you pick.

[Steely Dan]

Would you want to rebuild on the spot that the crash occurred on, and the effect that hearing planes fly over the house would have? I would expect that the wife would want to move someplace where she would feel safe. Plus I would expect the combination of insurance and a payout from the airlines would pay for any rebuild.

 

If you ever saw the "World According to Garp" That plane crash would be a good thing for the property because it's already been pre-disastered.

[keepthefaith]

Indeed.

 

There was some squaker here claimed that turboprop aircraft were dangerous. Perhaps he might recall the planes that the US Government uses as hurricane chasers, the planes used in the North Atlantic in running the USCG International Ice Patrol.

 

My ratings:

 

1. DC-3

2. C-130

3. B-52

4. Cessna 150 series

5. Anything else - you pick.

 

Cessna 150 is hardly a turboprop. Barely a prop on those.

[dib]

Cessna 150 is hardly a turboprop. Barely a prop on those.

 

 

When did they put props on B-52's

[RayFinkle]

When did they put props on B-52's

WWII

[ricojes]

My sister lives in Clarence Center and she just forwarded a link to sign a petition to get/request Extreme Home Makeover to rebuild the home where the plane hit and killed the father/husband. It's a small offering from the townflok so deeply involved and appears legit and worthwhile.

 

I don't think I'm/we're allowed to post the link here -or I would. Shouldn't be too difficult to look up. Otherwise PM me.

Yeah, I saw/heard that over the weekend. Sounds like a good idea, but they should include the neighbors house as well, it sustained major structural damage and was red tagged this week.

[zow2]

10:1 pilot error will be named prime cause for 2 reasons.

 

1) For the senseless nearly 100% use of auto-pilot in wintry conditions.

 

and

 

2)Overreaction mis-control of aircraft once off auto-pilot.

 

I weight 1 as 90% of the error.

 

Sadly, i think you are going to be correct about the major cause being pinned on pilot error. I don't think the airplane malfunctioned in any way. The pilot in command only had about 110 hours in the Q400. The first officer had more experience in the right seat but she was only 24. I mean really, I doubt either one had the vast experience in "moderate to significant" icing to cope with the auto pilot snapping off- pushing the yoke down, and dealing with violent pitching and rolling at such a low altitude. There was not enough altitude to recover. We learned from the Roselawn, Indiana crash that ice can build up really quickly on these turbo prop aircraft. The best way to handle it was to get outta the junk quickly and fly by hand to get a feel for any sluggishness and whatever necessary aerodynamic adjustments needed to be made.

 

The recommendation after the Buffalo crash (for Commuter props, etc.) will probably be to switch off the auto pilot and fly by hand in any icing conditions. I feel like this crash was so preventable because we already knew this. It's so sad.

[Steely Dan]

Sadly, i think you are going to be correct about the major cause being pinned on pilot error. I don't think the airplane malfunctioned in any way. The pilot in command only had about 110 hours in the Q400. The first officer had more experience in the right seat but she was only 24. I mean really, I doubt either one had the vast experience in "moderate to significant" icing to cope with the auto pilot snapping off- pushing the yoke down, and dealing with violent pitching and rolling at such a low altitude. There was not enough altitude to recover. We learned from the Roselawn, Indiana crash that ice can build up really quickly on these turbo prop aircraft. The best way to handle it was to get outta the junk quickly and fly by hand to get a feel for any sluggishness and whatever necessary aerodynamic adjustments needed to be made.

 

The recommendation after the Buffalo crash (for Commuter props, etc.) will probably be to switch off the auto pilot and fly by hand in any icing conditions. I feel like this crash was so preventable because we already knew this. It's so sad.

 

I thought that was a rule for coming into Buffalo.