Alphadawg7 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Ok, I am just so baffled by those who claim QB is not the problem and blame everything on DJ, Ralph, Peters, or DE...So I am going to spell it out for you right here in black and white...QB PRODUCTION...of should I say LACK of production has been the biggest factor to our losing seasons the last 2 years. Not saying, DE isnt a major need, or that DJ didnt make mistakes, but no other factor has held this club back as much as QB production... Seriously look at these stats. These are the combined stats of JP and Trent for the last 2 seasons where all the blame is being put on DJ...Once you see these stats, ask yourself "How can a coach win in the NFL with this little producton and insane amount of turnovers from his QB's, the most important position on the field?" Not to mention, this is with our staff being incredibly cautious with our QB's and limiting the risks they take, yet they still turn the ball over an embarrasing amount of times... 2007: Yards: 2834 = 177 yards per game TD's: 11 INT's 14 TD:INT ratio: .79:1 Sacks: 26 2008: Yards: 3283 = 205 yards per game TD's: 13 INT's: 15 TD:INT ratio: .87:1 Sacks: 38 Summary, in 32 games our QB's have passed for only 24 TD's total (unbelievably pathetic), 29 INT's (awful), have a TD:INT ratio less than 1:1 at .83:1, average ONLY 191.16 yards per game (incredibly pathetic) and have been sacked 64 times (or twice a game, not terrible, but not very good). Also, during that span, Trent has 5 LOST fumbles and JP has 6 LOST fumbles for another 11 turnovers...so TD to turnover ratio plummets to .60:1 when you factor that in...(horrendous) How is DJ supposed to win when in the last 32 games his QB's passed pathetically for: 1. ONLY 24 TD's 2. ONLY 191 yards per game 3. Turned the ball over 40 times with 29 INT's 4. Have TD:INT ratio of a pathetic .83:1 5. Have been sacked 64 times Seriously? How? I know someone is going to argue that the coaching scheme was too predicatable and simple...well what the h*ll do you expect them to do with the passing scheme when the QB's are performing so poorly? Make it more complicated? Everytime they start showing confidence in the QB's and expand, they let the staff down and regress...therefore the scheme stays simple... So, please expalin to me how that HORRIBLE production is less of a factor than our sack total or our coaching staff... The fact we won 7 games both years is a MIRACLE when you also factor in the massive injuries in 2007 and the critical losses of Crowell and Schobel this year as well as the injuries to other players...Even if we had no injuries, winning 7 games either year with this pathetic QB production is still a miracle. Now for you Trent supporters...read carefully...THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION OF WHAT TRENT WILL BE ONE DAY, ITS A DISCUSSION OF WHAT OUR BIGGEST PROBLEM WAS IN 2007 AND 2008. Potential has ZERO relevance when analyzing actual play on the field as potential is based on something that HAS NOT HAPPENED YET...and this discussion is on what has already happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Oh look, it's another Trent bash thread from Betadog. Yawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Ok, I am just so baffled by those who claim QB is not the problem and blame everything on DJ, Ralph, Peters, or DE. What does Matt Cassel's mother think about our QB situation? And which pilots are you working on right now? Question: If Matt Cassel receives the franchise tag, doesn't his mother get some credit for her son's success? And if you're handling cameras for a pilot that never gets the air, do you and Matt Cassel's mother get an IMDB credit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San-O Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 QB play has been pretty bad, agreed. Coaching has been awful: take DJ off the sidelines during games and the Bills are probably more like 9 - 7 this year and also last year. Also, someone better figure out how to get the ball in the endzone WITH TE in there, or else it's going to be a lot more of the same this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWVABillsFan Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Because defense is simpler than offense a team should always have an offensive minded coach. While I like DJ, he is a defensive coorinator and not a head coach. When you are losing games by 3-10 point margins you have to find a way to put those kind of points on the board. A defensive, conservative minded coach just can't do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 Oh look, it's another Trent bash thread from Betadog. Yawn. Nice insightful response... I find it amusing that when ever you present the delusional Trent is so great posters with actual facts and in game play, they either dont respond or come back with some lame post like this... Why is that? Maybe because you can't argue with the stats? QB is one of the few positions that stats tell the bulk of the story... Also, notice how you made it about Trent and I made it about COMBINED QB play, not just Trent even though the bulk of those stats are from Trent as he had 24 starts to JP's 8... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rackemrack Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 so lets draft a QB at #11 problem solved and trade for peyton manning to be the backup and make trent #3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 What does Matt Cassel's mother think about our QB situation? And which pilots are you working on right now? Question: If Matt Cassel receives the franchise tag, doesn't his mother get some credit for her son's success? And if you're handling cameras for a pilot that never gets the air, do you and Matt Cassel's mother get an IMDB credit? An even dumber response...but I would expect nothing else from you as your posts frequently mock others and offer no real intelligence to any conversation... I love how when someone provides you with actual facts and evidence you either dont reply anymore or reply with personal attacks that have no bearing to the topic becuase you have nothing intelligent to say... Your name says Billsvet but you post like you are 12 years old... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2o Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 You have to factor in the guys up front who are supposed to be blocking for that QB supposedly allowing them to disect defenses and get the ball out without too much harrassment from the opposing team's front. That hasn't really happened. In another thread they're comparing TrINT to Derek, but all I'm saying is look at the guy's OL. Last year Cleveland was a top 5 OL. That's when DA put up MOST of those #'s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 LMAO... I love how the bulk of the replies have no intelligent response or argument against the QB production not being our biggest problem...they just post stupid responses where they mock the thread, or say something stupid like we should trade for manning, or take pot shots at my career or friendship with Barbara... Thanks for cementing my point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 You have to factor in the guys up front who are supposed to be blocking for that QB supposedly allowing them to disect defenses and get the ball out without too much harrassment from the opposing team's front. That hasn't really happened. In another thread they're comparing TrINT to Derek, but all I'm saying is look at the guy's OL. Last year Cleveland was a top 5 OL. That's when DA put up MOST of those #'s. Last year the Cleveland O Line struggled, however, Dereks better stats did come when the O Line was playing much better, so you are right about the O Line. Like I said though, QB isnt the only factor, however, its been the biggest factor. Our O Line has played good enough for our QB's to produce better than they have. In fact, in 2007, Peters had a dominating year and our QB production was still terrible even though he was the one protecting his back. There are a lot of reasons we dont win, but QB has been the biggest factor by far...someone posted if DJ wasnt on the sidelines we win 9 games instead of 7...guess what, NE won 11 games and didnt make the playoffs, so winning 9 only gets us a lower draft pick...BETTER QB play wins us 5 more games and the division crown...(cle, Jets, Mia, NE and SF)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWVABillsFan Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Losman is gone, Hamdan is a #3 or worse at his best, so Trent is the guy. The only knock I have on the guy is no cannon arm. I want to give the guy an awesome receiving TE and another viable speedy WR. Get a good center and when them positions are in good order we can tell whether the QB is any good. Why do people consistently start threads on the starters when in the forsee-able future there probably won't be any change. You want to bash someone bash that whimp a**ed center buffalo has. Then bash the front office for not getting players they have had a chance to get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I don't care if we put an orange cone at QB! Fix the lines and the rest will follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 How's this for a semi-intelligent reply? The woes of an eleven man unit which depends on choreography and precision for success usually cannot be reduced to one factor. As a sophisticated analyst would frame the issue, there can be % blame apportioned to several areas. I think most of us can agree that we have subpar weapons in the passing game. I think most of us can agree that we have an average offensive line. I think most of can agree that we had a first year offensive coordinator installing a slightly new system. I think most of can agree that Trent is a young quarterback. He has 23 career starts. I think most of us can agree that somewhere around 99% of all young quarterbacks struggle. So IMO blaming the poor offensive performance solely on quarterback play is a gross oversimplification. Why can't we say something like: 30% blame: poor receiving corp 25% blame: average offensive line 25% blame: Newer system/New offensive coordinator 20% blame: Poor quarterback play You can split hairs on the % of blame but to put it all on one factor is ridiculous to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VJ91 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 LMAO... I love how the bulk of the replies have no intelligent response or argument against the QB production not being our biggest problem...they just post stupid responses where they mock the thread, or say something stupid like we should trade for manning, or take pot shots at my career or friendship with Barbara... Thanks for cementing my point... I think people out here take pot shots at your personal info because we have no way of knowing if it is true or not So if you are posting stuff like "Matt Cassel is going to do this because I'm friends with his Mom and she told me so", you are just opening yourself up for ridicule. Nobody out here cares if you are friends with Mrs. Cassel, and those that do care, don't believe you anyway. I just enjoy posting my Bills' and NFL opinions, while keeping my personal info to myself. You would be smart to do the same from here on in. As far as your post about Lost-man and Edwards stats the past two seasons, they are facts, and indisputable, obviously. But I put more blame on the Bills' biggest, tallest, fattest and weakest OL in the NFL, both guys have had to play behind. If those overpaid, passionless fatties would figure out how to run block, Edwards or any decent QB (leaving Lost-man out), would have much better stats as Lynch and Jackson were averaging 4.5 yards per carry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I find it amusing that when ever you present the delusional Trent is so great posters with actual facts and in game play, they either dont respond or come back with some lame post like this... Why is that? Maybe because you can't argue with the stats? Maybe it's because, unlike you, some of us have actually played the game before and understand that the only people that rely on stats are jocksniffers like you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 How's this for a semi-intelligent reply? The woes of an eleven man unit which depends on choreography and precision for success usually cannot be reduced to one factor. As a sophisticated analyst would frame the issue, there can be % blame apportioned to several areas. I think most of us can agree that we have subpar weapons in the passing game. I think most of us can agree that we have an average offensive line. I think most of can agree that we had a first year offensive coordinator installing a slightly new system. I think most of can agree that Trent is a young quarterback. He has 23 career starts. I think most of us can agree that somewhere around 99% of all young quarterbacks struggle. So IMO blaming the poor offensive performance solely on quarterback play is a gross oversimplification. Why can't we say something like: 30% blame: poor receiving corp 25% blame: average offensive line 25% blame: Newer system/New offensive coordinator 20% blame: Poor quarterback play You can split hairs on the % of blame but to put it all on one factor is ridiculous to me. Lol, nice reply, and I respect your opinnion and thought you put into it... However, I disagree with 30% poor recieving corp...when JP was productive in 2006, so was Evans. Reed is the most underapprieciated player on our team and our ineptness at passing the ball keeps his stats modest as well as Evans. Offensive line is not great, but not terrible either. Center is our only glaring and big weak spot...but the O Line provided plenty of passing time this season that saw our QB's do literally nothing with it. Agree, newer system adds to it, but the system was simplified to account for the young QB problem. The issue I have is that all these posters who support Trent say he is young and that is why he struggles...then they go on to talk about him like he isnt struggling in other posts (not saying you do this, but many do). Do we have several holes, sure...but our biggest has been POOR QB play...the fact remains, how can a team win with this kind of production? Seriously, what has to happen for a team to win when your QB's combine for a measly 24 passing TD's, 40 turnovers, and 190 yards passing a game over 2 full seasons and 32 games? I will tell you...your D has to play out of this world and hold teams under 14 points, your D has to score points for you, your ST has to score points for you, your HC has to be perfect, your team has to have minimal injuries and none to key players, and your Run game has to dominate. So unless we are dominant and nearly perfect in all other areas of the game, we won't be able to over come such inept play at QB, and anyone who has ever played at a competitive level understands this. There is a reason the QB gets all the credit and all the blame, because his performance has more impact on the outcome of a game than any other single position. Also, I posted in caps that this thread is not to speculate on what Trent MAY become in the future, it is a direct recap and analysis of what held us back the most in 07 and 08...how anyone can argue differently after seeing the meesly production is shocking to say the least... One last thing, this isnt a thread about Trent, its about our QB's combined...thats both JP and Trent... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flbillsfan#1 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 How's this for a semi-intelligent reply? The woes of an eleven man unit which depends on choreography and precision for success usually cannot be reduced to one factor. As a sophisticated analyst would frame the issue, there can be % blame apportioned to several areas. I think most of us can agree that we have subpar weapons in the passing game. I think most of us can agree that we have an average offensive line. I think most of can agree that we had a first year offensive coordinator installing a slightly new system. I think most of can agree that Trent is a young quarterback. He has 23 career starts. I think most of us can agree that somewhere around 99% of all young quarterbacks struggle. So IMO blaming the poor offensive performance solely on quarterback play is a gross oversimplification. Why can't we say something like: 30% blame: poor receiving corp 25% blame: average offensive line 25% blame: Newer system/New offensive coordinator 20% blame: Poor quarterback play You can split hairs on the % of blame but to put it all on one factor is ridiculous to me. I would pretty much agree, however I would only put about 10% on the receivers & 40% on Trent. The Bills have good receivers. If Manning or Brady were at QB there would be no problem with the receivers. It has been well documented that there were receivers open a lot last year & Trent did not get them the ball. Fitzgerald & Bolden could have been on the field for the Bills last year & it wouldn't have mattered. A receiver has to have the ball thrown to them to make a play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 An even dumber response...but I would expect nothing else from you as your posts frequently mock others and offer no real intelligence to any conversation... I love how when someone provides you with actual facts and evidence you either dont reply anymore or reply with personal attacks that have no bearing to the topic becuase you have nothing intelligent to say... Your name says Billsvet but you post like you are 12 years old... First, my name is "BillsVet" because I am a military veteran and obviously a Bills fan. The only season since 1988 that I missed was 2004 when I was deployed. You got yourself off to a bad start on this board by quoting sources that you attempted in vain to prove. So much so that it came down to your "proof" being a pilot television show and whether or not it was on IMDB. Pretty lame if you ask me. Your inside source was allegedly Matt Cassel's mother, which isn't much of a source on anyone but her son. Regardless of whether you like it, Trent Edwards is the QB of this team. He doesn't miss on draft picks, he doesn't sign free agents, he doesn't hire lame duck coaches who never should have been hired after failing in Chicago. He doesn't hire OC's who've never been in the position and who never would have been without Buffalo. He doesn't put the game plan together, but he is an integral part of this team. You want a QB with less than 2 seasons of NFL starts to play like an All Pro. When you refer to QB play, you're making a veiled reference against TE and we all know it. In the short time you've been here, you've managed to alienate a lot of people, particularly those who don't wholeheartedly agree with your tired rationale. I'll be critical of TE when he has a bad game. The first quarter of the Cleveland MNF game was about as bad as a QB can play. He had a lack of confidence, but his rookie OC and rookie QB coach did nothing to react to the Browns defense. People criticize TE as the checkdown man, and there were guys open, but try playing QB with 6-7 guys in coverage on every down. I didn't care for the way you introduced yourself onto this board. Get over yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 I think people out here take pot shots at your personal info because we have no way of knowing if it is true or not So if you are posting stuff like "Matt Cassel is going to do this because I'm friends with his Mom and she told me so", you are just opening yourself up for ridicule. Nobody out here cares if you are friends with Mrs. Cassel, and those that do care, don't believe you anyway. I just enjoy posting my Bills' and NFL opinions, while keeping my personal info to myself. You would be smart to do the same from here on in. As far as your post about Lost-man and Edwards stats the past two seasons, they are facts, and indisputable, obviously. But I put more blame on the Bills' biggest, tallest, fattest and weakest OL in the NFL, both guys have had to play behind. If those overpaid, passionless fatties would figure out how to run block, Edwards or any decent QB (leaving Lost-man out), would have much better stats as Lynch and Jackson were averaging 4.5 yards per carry. I get ya...I got some insight from Barbara that I found interesting and shared it...I have talked to her a few times since, and trust me the contents of those conversations will never grace these boards again...it really wasnt worth it...I sent her a link to thread, she was rolling and we had a good laugh over it as she poked fun at how irritated I got... I dont really share personal info with the exception of that post...for instance, I played college ball for 4 years in the Pac 10 and been asked a few times where and when, but I leave it out, its not important and don't need people that much in my business... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Pretty much everyone except the wild-eyed slaverers who dream about Trent at night are aware that our QB situation is, at best, unproven. It has held us back. On the other hand, the QB is a part of a system, and while the QB affects the system, the system also affects the QB, and we really do have some major problems which affect the QB, most particularly a lack of a true #2 reciever, a good TE and particularly a center who is simply not of NFL starter caliber. And that's before you talk about our horrendous OC in 2007 and a rookie OC learning on the fly in 2008. QB is a problem. But it is not THE problem. It is one of several. Thing is that you have to expect that with such an inexperienced guy at QB. It's part of the deal when you decide to develop a young QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Nice insightful response... I find it amusing that when ever you present the delusional Trent is so great posters with actual facts and in game play, they either dont respond or come back with some lame post like this... Why is that? Maybe because you can't argue with the stats? QB is one of the few positions that stats tell the bulk of the story... Sorry, that dodge isn't going to work either. Arguing with your stats is like shooting fish in a barrel. And speaking of amusing, it doesn't get much better than someone preaching about facts and stats when they are so committed to their personal anti-Trent crusade. Unlike you, I'll root for whoever is playing for the Bills rather than screaming about how he should be replaced with an inferior player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Because defense is simpler than offense a team should always have an offensive minded coach. While I like DJ, he is a defensive coorinator and not a head coach. When you are losing games by 3-10 point margins you have to find a way to put those kind of points on the board. A defensive, conservative minded coach just can't do that. Yeah, nobody wants those defensively oriented coaches like Landry, Parcells and Belichick. Losers. Not to mention (cough) Super Bowl champion coach Tomlin. This argument makes no sense whatsoever, seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Pretty much everyone except the wild-eyed slaverers who dream about Trent at night are aware that our QB situation is, at best, unproven. It has held us back. On the other hand, the QB is a part of a system, and while the QB affects the system, the system also affects the QB, and we really do have some major problems which affect the QB, most particularly a lack of a true #2 reciever, a good TE and particularly a center who is simply not of NFL starter caliber. And that's before you talk about our horrendous OC in 2007 and a rookie OC learning on the fly in 2008. QB is a problem. But it is not THE problem. It is one of several. Thing is that you have to expect that with such an inexperienced guy at QB. It's part of the deal when you decide to develop a young QB. There are so many variables that it is very difficult to isolate them. I don't especially like any of our offensive lineman other than Peters, although many seem to like Butler- he is young, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. We don't have anyone who will be mistaken for Bruce Smith, much less, Michael Strahan on the defensive line. Stroud is the best we've got, and at best, he's a very good player. Having some of the worst weather in the league, the Bills should focus on building a defense and a running game- we don't have a fullback that could block me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 First, my name is "BillsVet" because I am a military veteran and obviously a Bills fan. The only season since 1988 that I missed was 2004 when I was deployed. You got yourself off to a bad start on this board by quoting sources that you attempted in vain to prove. So much so that it came down to your "proof" being a pilot television show and whether or not it was on IMDB. Pretty lame if you ask me. Your inside source was allegedly Matt Cassel's mother, which isn't much of a source on anyone but her son. Regardless of whether you like it, Trent Edwards is the QB of this team. He doesn't miss on draft picks, he doesn't sign free agents, he doesn't hire lame duck coaches who never should have been hired after failing in Chicago. He doesn't hire OC's who've never been in the position and who never would have been without Buffalo. He doesn't put the game plan together, but he is an integral part of this team. You want a QB with less than 2 seasons of NFL starts to play like an All Pro. When you refer to QB play, you're making a veiled reference against TE and we all know it. In the short time you've been here, you've managed to alienate a lot of people, particularly those who don't wholeheartedly agree with your tired rationale. I'll be critical of TE when he has a bad game. The first quarter of the Cleveland MNF game was about as bad as a QB can play. He had a lack of confidence, but his rookie OC and rookie QB coach did nothing to react to the Browns defense. People criticize TE as the checkdown man, and there were guys open, but try playing QB with 6-7 guys in coverage on every down. I didn't care for the way you introduced yourself onto this board. Get over yourself. First off, the topic of the thread was 100% about Matt Cassel when I posted a conversation about with his mom...so your point of "she isnt much of a source other than on her son" is a mute point, becuase the info I got from her only pertained to her son... Second...the way I introduced myself? First off, I posted over 700 other posts and threads and had been on here for months before I started that thread...On top of that, I said take it for what its worth, as all I did was share what at the time was something I found interesting that I got from her. I didnt come out and say "look at me, I know her"... who the f*ck cares if I know her...and why would I try and name drop someones mom? I only included her in the post because as soon as someone says you heard something from a source all the posters start screaming for a link or source...so I provided it for their benefit, but unfortunatley some posters on this board, your self included, are incapable of accepting that...oh well, who really gives a damn what you believe... Third...Prior to that post and since that post I have made no such posts even remotely close. I actually have friends in the NFL from my playing days and from other friends, and I hear things all the time, but I dont come running on here and post them because usually they are not close enough to the situation for me to give them enough credit, so why bother. I am not interested in posting speculation I hear, I only posted the one on Cassel because of how close she is to the situation and I found it quite interesting...plus she's my friend, so I trust her. Congrats Billsvet for being a veteran, I commend you on that. But to be honest, I dont know what your deal is that makes you feel necessary to try and break me down when all I did was share some info I got that was interesting at the time. In fact, all you do is follow me around this board and bring that up in every thread...its old...its sad that you feel the need to prop yourself up by mocking others. You mock my career and doubt I even work in film and TV...come to LA, just about everyone here, especially waiters, has worked in the industry at some point...its nothing special... I mean seriously, I dont go around this board posting BS crap...just about every topic I start or post I make deals directly with football info and has nothing to do with hear say...look at how many posts I have, and the only one you can focus on is Cassel... Let it go dude...geezus... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 Sorry, that dodge isn't going to work either. Arguing with your stats is like shooting fish in a barrel. And speaking of amusing, it doesn't get much better than someone preaching about facts and stats when they are so committed to their personal anti-Trent crusade. Unlike you, I'll root for whoever is playing for the Bills rather than screaming about how he should be replaced with an inferior player. Dude, seriously... First off, I will support Trent and I hope he develops...I didnt say get rid of him...the fact remains UNTIL he becomes what you THINK he already is we will NOT go very far. The point is, everyone blames DJ for our 7-9 record, but how can he do any better if our QB's play this bad? Same with baseball...you can not consistently win if you pitchers give up 5 runs every game...like it or not, our QB play has been BEYOND subpar in the last 2 years, and this post DIRECTLY addresses the RESULTS of the last 2 years, not what Trent may become... Add in his severe regression and injury history and his potential looks more questionable. My analysis has nothing to do with my opinnion of Trent, it is a cold hard look at what has transpired the last 2 seasons that led us to 7-9, and it wasnt just Trent, it was JP too. I am whole heartedly pulling for Trent and this thread was not meant to bash him but meant to highlight how we got to back to back 7-9 seasons... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 To repeat from another post: If you actually factor of injury situation which completely misrepresent the whole body of work, TE's stats are pretty decent. Take out Edwards playing a half against SF or 3 plays against the Cards didn't hurt Trent's average. It would lead to Trent passing for an average of 214 yards/game which was a yard below Matt Ryan and 8 yards ahead of Big Ben. http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?arc...mp;d-447263-p=1 I will say that Jauron gets blamed a little to harshly because he has had a lot of crap to coach at the QB position (McNown, Jim miller, Shane Matthews, Kordell Stewart, Losman). How many coaches would have won with those guys under center? you really think the guy who steal clothes from the homeless and coaches NE would have won any Super Bowl with that crap platter. i don't know if Edwards will be the franchise guy that we badly need. I do, however, think TE entering his 3rd season is the best QB Jauron has ever had. Of course, that isn't really saying much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 To repeat from another post: If you actually factor of injury situation which completely misrepresent the whole body of work, TE's stats are pretty decent. Take out Edwards playing a half against SF or 3 plays against the Cards didn't hurt Trent's average. It would lead to Trent passing for an average of 214 yards/game which was a yard below Matt Ryan and 8 yards ahead of Big Ben. http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?arc...mp;d-447263-p=1 I will say that Jauron gets blamed a little to harshly because he has had a lot of crap to coach at the QB position (McNown, Jim miller, Shane Matthews, Kordell Stewart, Losman). How many coaches would have won with those guys under center? you really think the guy who steal clothes from the homeless and coaches NE would have won any Super Bowl with that crap platter. i don't know if Edwards will be the franchise guy that we badly need. I do, however, think TE entering his 3rd season is the best QB Jauron has ever had. Of course, that isn't really saying much. I agree with your post, and unlike the others, you see that this wasnt a Trent sucks post, it was a poor OVERALL production from out QB's, which include JP post. Trent still is a big contibutor to that, but it doesnt mean he wont take a big step forward this year. The whole reason I started this was because I was tired of the DJ is the reason, Ralph is the reason, Peters is the reason, and DE is the reason posts that all completely ignore our overall sagging QB play... I hope the kid pans out...I still wore his jersey all year and even during the playoffs and SB...but my hope in him doesnt change the facts of how he has played until now, and JP played even worse...the fact we got 7 wins both seasons while going through these growing pains at QB is a minor miracle... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Oh look, it's another Trent bash thread from Betadog. Yawn. My thoughts exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 First off, the topic of the thread was 100% about Matt Cassel when I posted a conversation about with his mom...so your point of "she isnt much of a source other than on her son" is a mute point, becuase the info I got from her only pertained to her son... Let it go dude...geezus... You're telling me to "let it go" after the discussions you've engaged in? If you come onto a message board and make claims which could be true but can't find a way to prove them, prepare to take a heat round. Have a little humility and admit when you're wrong. No one on this board is right all the time, though some get it right more often than you. Alpha Topic 1 Read macaroni's post. He says what many posters have tried to tell you already. Just because this board doesn't kneel when you post doesn't mean that's a bad thing. You started making posts after the AZ game when JP subbed for the concussed TE. You went to significant effort to explain why Adrian Wilson should not have been fined. You know, with all this TE bashing, I've got to believe Edwards thrashed your team in the PAC 10 and you haven't gotten over it. I mean, relax dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lets_go_bills Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 How's this for a semi-intelligent reply? The woes of an eleven man unit which depends on choreography and precision for success usually cannot be reduced to one factor. As a sophisticated analyst would frame the issue, there can be % blame apportioned to several areas. I think most of us can agree that we have subpar weapons in the passing game. I think most of us can agree that we have an average offensive line. I think most of can agree that we had a first year offensive coordinator installing a slightly new system. I think most of can agree that Trent is a young quarterback. He has 23 career starts. I think most of us can agree that somewhere around 99% of all young quarterbacks struggle. So IMO blaming the poor offensive performance solely on quarterback play is a gross oversimplification. Why can't we say something like: 30% blame: poor receiving corp 25% blame: average offensive line 25% blame: Newer system/New offensive coordinator 20% blame: Poor quarterback play You can split hairs on the % of blame but to put it all on one factor is ridiculous to me. I like your post. One thing I would like to add is that we have two great RBs. And yet we under-use them. We need to find our offensive identity and it clearly is our run game. We need to be a run first offense that runs to set up the pass. By playing to our strengths we will have the most success. Saying QB is our problem is an incorrect statement. I feel our offense as a whole is the problem. Our OC needs to be a better play caller. We have turned away from the run attack when it was working in games. If we can come out and run well these four things happen: 1. Long, sustained, drives that eat clock. 2. Defenses getting tired and worn out, making running AND passing easier. 3. A successful run game means teams are cheating up which opens up deep passes and more single coverage. 4. Play action passes become an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Ok, I am just so baffled by those who claim QB is not the problem and blame everything on DJ, Ralph, Peters, or DE...So I am going to spell it out for you right here in black and white...QB PRODUCTION...of should I say LACK of production has been the biggest factor to our losing seasons the last 2 years. Not saying, DE isnt a major need, or that DJ didnt make mistakes, but no other factor has held this club back as much as QB production... Seriously look at these stats. These are the combined stats of JP and Trent for the last 2 seasons where all the blame is being put on DJ...Once you see these stats, ask yourself "How can a coach win in the NFL with this little producton and insane amount of turnovers from his QB's, the most important position on the field?" Not to mention, this is with our staff being incredibly cautious with our QB's and limiting the risks they take, yet they still turn the ball over an embarrasing amount of times... 2007: Yards: 2834 = 177 yards per game TD's: 11 INT's 14 TD:INT ratio: .79:1 Sacks: 26 2008: Yards: 3283 = 205 yards per game TD's: 13 INT's: 15 TD:INT ratio: .87:1 Sacks: 38 Summary, in 32 games our QB's have passed for only 24 TD's total (unbelievably pathetic), 29 INT's (awful), have a TD:INT ratio less than 1:1 at .83:1, average ONLY 191.16 yards per game (incredibly pathetic) and have been sacked 64 times (or twice a game, not terrible, but not very good). Also, during that span, Trent has 5 LOST fumbles and JP has 6 LOST fumbles for another 11 turnovers...so TD to turnover ratio plummets to .60:1 when you factor that in...(horrendous) How is DJ supposed to win when in the last 32 games his QB's passed pathetically for: 1. ONLY 24 TD's 2. ONLY 191 yards per game 3. Turned the ball over 40 times with 29 INT's 4. Have TD:INT ratio of a pathetic .83:1 5. Have been sacked 64 times Seriously? How? I know someone is going to argue that the coaching scheme was too predicatable and simple...well what the h*ll do you expect them to do with the passing scheme when the QB's are performing so poorly? Make it more complicated? Everytime they start showing confidence in the QB's and expand, they let the staff down and regress...therefore the scheme stays simple... So, please expalin to me how that HORRIBLE production is less of a factor than our sack total or our coaching staff... The fact we won 7 games both years is a MIRACLE when you also factor in the massive injuries in 2007 and the critical losses of Crowell and Schobel this year as well as the injuries to other players...Even if we had no injuries, winning 7 games either year with this pathetic QB production is still a miracle. Now for you Trent supporters...read carefully...THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION OF WHAT TRENT WILL BE ONE DAY, ITS A DISCUSSION OF WHAT OUR BIGGEST PROBLEM WAS IN 2007 AND 2008. Potential has ZERO relevance when analyzing actual play on the field as potential is based on something that HAS NOT HAPPENED YET...and this discussion is on what has already happened. I think people are perhaps getting confused in this thread. This is a "the sky is blue" type of post. Everyone(pretty much) knows that the QB production has been terrible(which is your point). The difference is that we all know that we are pretty much locked in with TE for at least another season based upon his potential. There is no 'quick fix' for the passing situation......as opposed to perhaps the pass rush situation, the OL situation or the pass receiving situation where we could conceivably bring in FA help or have hopes for good production from a rookie. There is nothing realistically that can be done about the QB situation at the moment......we sit & wait & hope. Unless you have some sort of theory which could fix things.......all you have said is "the sky is blue". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 You're telling me to "let it go" after the discussions you've engaged in? If you come onto a message board and make claims which could be true but can't find a way to prove them, prepare to take a heat round. Have a little humility and admit when you're wrong. No one on this board is right all the time, though some get it right more often than you. Alpha Topic 1 Read macaroni's post. He says what many posters have tried to tell you already. Just because this board doesn't kneel when you post doesn't mean that's a bad thing. You started making posts after the AZ game when JP subbed for the concussed TE. You went to significant effort to explain why Adrian Wilson should not have been fined. You know, with all this TE bashing, I've got to believe Edwards thrashed your team in the PAC 10 and you haven't gotten over it. I mean, relax dude. Huh? Humility when I am wrong? I often praise others post, in fact I do it all the time, even when we are on opposite sides...I have even posted several times about being wrong or someone making a good point... But you are right about one thing, I will NEVER share any info I get from any sources I still have contact with, especially Barbara. I never posted like that before and havent since. It was a mistake and have said numerous times I shouldnt have done it as I should have known this board would focus on the source rather than the topic. FYI: I still dont think Adrian should have been fined...maybe it has to do with the fact I played LB in college and that is exactly how we were taught to hit and it looked clean to me...just a hard hit. And I was pissed we lost Trent, but I kept my dissapointment out of that discussion and focused on whether I felt it was a clean hit. I was not even close to the only one who felt that way... But who really cares...I mean seriously...why do you feel the need to follow me around and bring up old posts constantly? I keep my discussions mostly to football matters...whether you agree with them or not is your perogative and you are fully entitled to your opinnion, but seriously, the following me around and bringing up my profession or friendship with Barbara is not only getting old, but its creepy... Move on...please...if you have somethng related to the bills you want to discuss, fine...even if you dont agree...but enough already with the old posts stuff. I have never made any outlandish claims or boasts...I let myself get baited in by posters lilke you in the Cassel thread, and I regret that, but at this point I could give a rats azz what you believe or dont believe...and its the fact you are vet and I have a great deal of respect for the armed forces that has kept my responses with you as civil as I have... And even though you havent been very respectful in your posts to me, you dont see me arguing on whether you are a vet or not...I give you the benefit of the doubt...I mean, if someone needs to come on to a message board to make stuff up to make themselves feel better, than they have bigger issues, so might as well give them the benefit of the doubt than spend the amount of time you do trying to discredit them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2o Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Last year the Cleveland O Line struggled, however, Dereks better stats did come when the O Line was playing much better, so you are right about the O Line. Like I said though, QB isnt the only factor, however, its been the biggest factor. Our O Line has played good enough for our QB's to produce better than they have. In fact, in 2007, Peters had a dominating year and our QB production was still terrible even though he was the one protecting his back. There are a lot of reasons we dont win, but QB has been the biggest factor by far...someone posted if DJ wasnt on the sidelines we win 9 games instead of 7...guess what, NE won 11 games and didnt make the playoffs, so winning 9 only gets us a lower draft pick...BETTER QB play wins us 5 more games and the division crown...(cle, Jets, Mia, NE and SF)... QB play is definitely a huge factor, I agree. This is what I saw from JP. In '06 it seemed like the light switch was flipped on. He had his best season in a Bills' uni with 3,000+ yards and 19 TD's versus 12 INT's. It seemed like he "clicked" with Fairchild and I thought we had finally found our guy. In '07 the wheels fell off. I never will understand how he took such a step back. He clearly showed he didn't have the mental make-up or the poise to play QB for our team. Enter TrINT Edwards. He comes in and shows some flashes, but never really a vertical passing threat. He guides us to a 4-0 and then 5-1 record garnering praise from all media outlets possible. He leads a couple of comebacks against some BAD football teams. ESPN, NFL Network, and everyone else is singing his praise. He's reading the defense and getting the ball out with timing to his WR's. Next comes Adrian Wilson on a safety blitz like a freight train. That train may have wrecked our "QB of the future". After that hit, Edwards was a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT QB. No longer was he getting the ball out to a space where he trusted the WR would be, but he was now "waiting for somebody to get open". You can't do that in the NFL. Just when you think your guy has found space, the QB throws, and it's picked off by a player watching him the whole time. Go find the Cleveland game from MNF and watch it again. You could've yelled "BOO!!!" at TrINT after the AW hit and he was getting rid of the ball, it didn't matter what color jersey the player was wearing. He was looking for the blitz as not to take another crucial hit instead of reading the defense and throwing the ball to a spot where the WR would be by the time the ball got there. People want to blame it on all kinds of things. He's still not recovered from the concussion, he doesn't have the supporting cast, he's homesick, he's soft, he's too fragile, he's not that good in the cold, and so on and so on and so on. I think he's just scared. You can't be scared and play QB in the NFL. It, the fear, just won't allow you to focus enough to get the job done on the field. Hopefully I'm wrong and he shakes it off. But I think he'll always hear footsteps, he'll always be focused on who's coming after him, and he'll always be scared of taking another "big hit". About Anderson, I was speaking of the year he was fantastic and they were 10-6. That's the year he put up the big #'s and the OL was simply dominant. This past season he struggled mightily. His best game came against the NY Giants on Monday Night Football. Other than that, he fell apart totally. Reminded me of JP in '07. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Michael Koenen's mom called my brother and told him that the Falcons were going to franchise tag her son because she remembered he was a Bills fan from a chance meeting at the Ferndale Starbucks. I guess there weren't many guys named Oedipus in the phone book. Oedipus was 9th string on the Trojans too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynical Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Dude, seriously... First off, I will support Trent and I hope he develops...I didnt say get rid of him...the fact remains UNTIL he becomes what you THINK he already is we will NOT go very far. The point is, everyone blames DJ for our 7-9 record, but how can he do any better if our QB's play this bad? Same with baseball...you can not consistently win if you pitchers give up 5 runs every game...like it or not, our QB play has been BEYOND subpar in the last 2 years, and this post DIRECTLY addresses the RESULTS of the last 2 years, not what Trent may become... Add in his severe regression and injury history and his potential looks more questionable. My analysis has nothing to do with my opinnion of Trent, it is a cold hard look at what has transpired the last 2 seasons that led us to 7-9, and it wasnt just Trent, it was JP too. I am whole heartedly pulling for Trent and this thread was not meant to bash him but meant to highlight how we got to back to back 7-9 seasons... The fact you readily admit your post deals with the RESULT reveals a flaw in your theory. You make a valid correlation between wins/losses and QB production, but your "facts" provide zero causation. Results only tell you what happened, and not how they happened. The biggest reason the Bills are 7-9 the past three seasons is because of DJ. How many times during this past season did you hear/read the comments of players stating they were not properly prepared? How many times during this past season did you watch the Bills coaching staff get out coached by the other team? How many times during this past season did you see the Bills coaching staff looking/acting confused by a given situation? I hate to break the news to you, but those problems are not caused by poor QB play. Those problems cause your QB to play poorly. Get rid of the incompetent DJ, and hire a competent HC. Then watch all the bs problems go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 The fact you readily admit your post deals with the RESULT reveals a flaw in your theory. You make a valid correlation between wins/losses and QB production, but your "facts" provide zero causation. Results only tell you what happened, and not how they happened. The biggest reason the Bills are 7-9 the past three seasons is because of DJ. How many times during this past season did you hear/read the comments of players stating they were not properly prepared? How many times during this past season did you watch the Bills coaching staff get out coached by the other team? How many times during this past season did you see the Bills coaching staff looking/acting confused by a given situation? I hate to break the news to you, but those problems are not caused by poor QB play. Those problems cause your QB to play poorly. Get rid of the incompetent DJ, and hire a competent HC. Then watch all the bs problems go away. Who is your magic coach who will not only want to live in Buffalo, but can turn Ryan Denney, Chris Kelsay, Duke Preston, Langston Walker and Roscoe Parrish into NFL caliber players? I say go get Cinderella's fairy godmother and the glass slipper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 My breakdown: 5% blame: poor receiving corp 15% blame: average offensive line 20% blame: Newer system/New offensive coordinator 60% blame: Poor quarterback play Why does everyone say that Trent is for sure the guy next year and is the future of the franchise and is entrenched in the starting spot? Gosh, I hope this is not true. We're not married to Trent. We should actively pursue getting the best QB we can possibly get in the off season. Then open it up in training camp and let the best QB win. I really don't care if it hurts Trent's feelings or not. This is the big leagues. I've seen some good things from him, sure. I've also seen tons of bad. I know he got creamed in the Cardinals game and people say he wasn't the same. He sure looked OK against the Chargers 2 weeks later and the Chiefs. Kind of blows that theory. How do we know that his receiving corps was weak when he wouldn't throw to them? They looked great in the first 6 games when Trent was on his game. And don't even say they weren't open. I was at the Clowns game, and there were guys open 10 yards and longer all night long. But Trent was playing like a scared rabbit and threw a lot of passes to guys behind the line of scrimmage. The offensive line was not great, but in many games I watched our QBs had a lot of time to throw the ball. Enough for a decent QB to get by with. If he is the the guy next year, then great. Go Bills. But, the off season is the time to question these things. If we could get decent QB play, we'd be a pretty decent team. I'll say it is our #1 problem by far. Others exist for sure, but QB is #1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bizell Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Oh look, it's another Trent bash thread from Betadog. Yawn. yeah, except for the fact that he specifically mentioned that JP was part of the equation. Oops! Try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 My breakdown: 5% blame: poor receiving corp 15% blame: average offensive line 20% blame: Newer system/New offensive coordinator 60% blame: Poor quarterback play Why does everyone say that Trent is for sure the guy next year and is the future of the franchise and is entrenched in the starting spot? Gosh, I hope this is not true. We're not married to Trent. We should actively pursue getting the best QB we can possibly get in the off season. Then open it up in training camp and let the best QB win. I really don't care if it hurts Trent's feelings or not. This is the big leagues. I've seen some good things from him, sure. I've also seen tons of bad. I know he got creamed in the Cardinals game and people say he wasn't the same. He sure looked OK against the Chargers 2 weeks later and the Chiefs. Kind of blows that theory. How do we know that his receiving corps was weak when he wouldn't throw to them? They looked great in the first 6 games when Trent was on his game. And don't even say they weren't open. I was at the Clowns game, and there were guys open 10 yards and longer all night long. But Trent was playing like a scared rabbit and threw a lot of passes to guys behind the line of scrimmage. The offensive line was not great, but in many games I watched our QBs had a lot of time to throw the ball. Enough for a decent QB to get by with. If he is the the guy next year, then great. Go Bills. But, the off season is the time to question these things. If we could get decent QB play, we'd be a pretty decent team. I'll say it is our #1 problem by far. Others exist for sure, but QB is #1. Great post...my whole point exactly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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