An end to the myth..."QB is not the problem"

[Gordio]

I'm pretty sure that's why they've remained crappy for so long. They keep looking for the one position fix, the QB, when they needed to spend the money and draft picks on decent linemen! For example, you pick up a rookie QB who, over the course of his first nfl season, has less than 2 seconds to throw on every down due to virtually no blocking. He's not going to have very good numbers. It will lead to the defense not respecting the pass because receivers don't have time to get open. Which in turn can lead to defenses stopping the run by packing a bunch in the box as there is no pass offense.

 

That sounds kind of familiar doesn't it? The entire offense seems to be in disarray, but the line is the problem!

 

Poor QB play is a symptom of the bigger problem.

 

 

But that is simply not true of the bills teams last year. Go actually watch the games. Our qbs in most of the games had plenty of time to throw the ball last year. The poor qb play last year & Dick Jauron where the 2 biggest reasons the bills did not get into the playoffs last year.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

So, by this theory Daunte Culpepper is the guy that held the Lions back to 0-16 but was also the guy that was good enough to lead the Vikings to a #1 seed in the salary cap era. Trent Dilfer was the guy that held the Bucs back but led the Ravens to a Super Bowl victory. Brett Favre won a Super Bowl in Green Bay but also held them back in seasons they stunk as he held back the Jets. Jeff Garcia has been to 4 Pro Bowls and led the 49ers to the playoffs as well as Tampa but held back 5 teams including the 49ers and Tampa. Rex Grossman dragged the Bears to a Super Bowl and has also held the Bears back ever since. Neal O'Donnell led the Steelers and held back the Jets. Bledsoe led the Patriots and held back 3 teams including the Patriots. Kurt Warner led the Rams and Cardinals to the Super Bowl but held the New York Giants back. I can go on...

 

Football is a team game. The modern game is about coaching as much as it is about players. In the old NFL, teams lined up 11 on 11 and the better team prevailed. If you had Jim Brown, you had a guy that was physically dominant, you gave him the ball, he ran over everyone, and you won games and championships. Now, talent is much more evenly distributed and evolved. (If you don't believe it look at all the worst-to-firsts, late season runs, and teams that nobody predicts doing very well over the last few years -- indeed, the Bills are the anomaly in that they are one of the few dysfunctional organizations that seems to find a way to blow it each and every year.) Modern football is about match-ups, exploiting weaknesses, game planning, systems, play calling, sets, formations, packages, clock management, proper technique, keeping the team focused. And, guess what? The QB doesn't do any of that. That's why you see guys like Grossman, Johnson, Delhomme, Gannon, Dilfer, Collins, Chandler, McNair, Bledsoe, O'Donnell, and Humphries "drag their teams" all the way to the Super Bowl in the salary cap era. It's why winning teams and franchises that stay in the hunt invest in and pay for good front offices and coaches.

Good job.

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

But that is simply not true of the bills teams last year. Go actually watch the games. Our qbs in most of the games had plenty of time to throw the ball last year. The poor qb play last year & Dick Jauron where the 2 biggest reasons the bills did not get into the playoffs last year.

You are correct , However the receivers still need to get open. How many times have you seen the QB's looking, looking, and other than occasionally Josh Reed, the WR's are smothered. Whether that's talent or coaching (my opinion) you can't just throw the ball. Not to say your argument is false, just saying that maybe some clever coaching and we could see what our teams potential could be.

[BillsVet]

So, by this theory Daunte Culpepper is the guy that held the Lions back to 0-16 but was also the guy that was good enough to lead the Vikings to a #1 seed in the salary cap era. Trent Dilfer was the guy that held the Bucs back but led the Ravens to a Super Bowl victory. Brett Favre won a Super Bowl in Green Bay but also held them back in seasons they stunk as he held back the Jets. Jeff Garcia has been to 4 Pro Bowls and led the 49ers to the playoffs as well as Tampa but held back 5 teams including the 49ers and Tampa. Rex Grossman dragged the Bears to a Super Bowl and has also held the Bears back ever since. Neal O'Donnell led the Steelers and held back the Jets. Bledsoe led the Patriots and held back 3 teams including the Patriots. Kurt Warner led the Rams and Cardinals to the Super Bowl but held the New York Giants back. I can go on...

 

Football is a team game. The modern game is about coaching as much as it is about players. In the old NFL, teams lined up 11 on 11 and the better team prevailed. If you had Jim Brown, you had a guy that was physically dominant, you gave him the ball, he ran over everyone, and you won games and championships. Now, talent is much more evenly distributed and evolved. (If you don't believe it look at all the worst-to-firsts, late season runs, and teams that nobody predicts doing very well over the last few years -- indeed, the Bills are the anomaly in that they are one of the few dysfunctional organizations that seems to find a way to blow it each and every year.) Modern football is about match-ups, exploiting weaknesses, game planning, systems, play calling, sets, formations, packages, clock management, proper technique, keeping the team focused. And, guess what? The QB doesn't do any of that. That's why you see guys like Grossman, Johnson, Delhomme, Gannon, Dilfer, Collins, Chandler, McNair, Bledsoe, O'Donnell, and Humphries "drag their teams" all the way to the Super Bowl in the salary cap era. It's why winning teams and franchises that stay in the hunt invest in and pay for good front offices and coaches.

 

Excellent post...great assesment.

[reddogblitz]

You are correct , However the receivers still need to get open. How many times have you seen the QB's looking, looking, and other than occasionally Josh Reed, the WR's are smothered. Whether that's talent or coaching (my opinion) you can't just throw the ball. Not to say your argument is false, just saying that maybe some clever coaching and we could see what our teams potential could be.

 

If you go to the games, you can watch the receivers down field and see if guys are open or not. I went to 2 games this year. Seattle and Cleveland. In the Seattle game guys were open and Trent was actually throwing to them and they were catching them and we won big. In the Cleveland game guys were open down field and in the end zone all night long and our QB chose to throw to RBs and other people behind the line of scrimmage and Cleveland defenders instead. Others at other games, one guy at the first Patsies game, said the same thing.

 

It's not the WRs or the OLine. It's QB play that's hurting us the most. Bottom line. Would we have finished 7-9 if we had Big Ben or Jim Kelly in his prime as our QB?

[Gordio]

Excellent post...great assesment.

 

 

The problem with this assessment is most of the examples he gives he is comparing the qbs in their prime to same guys in the tail end of the careers. Comparing a young healthy culpepper in Minn to the old has been gimp that played in detroit, a mid 90s brett favre to the washed up version who played in NY & a young Jeff garcia in SF to the Jeff Garcia that played in Tampa.

 

Ask a Green Bay Packer fan who was the most important player on that Super Bowl team & ask a NYJ fan what was the single most thing that held the Jets back this year. I bet 9 out of 10 fans say Brett Favre in both scenerios.

[Alphadawg7]

So, by this theory Daunte Culpepper is the guy that held the Lions back to 0-16 but was also the guy that was good enough to lead the Vikings to a #1 seed in the salary cap era. Trent Dilfer was the guy that held the Bucs back but led the Ravens to a Super Bowl victory. Brett Favre won a Super Bowl in Green Bay but also held them back in seasons they stunk as he held back the Jets. Jeff Garcia has been to 4 Pro Bowls and led the 49ers to the playoffs as well as Tampa but held back 5 teams including the 49ers and Tampa. Rex Grossman dragged the Bears to a Super Bowl and has also held the Bears back ever since. Neal O'Donnell led the Steelers and held back the Jets. Bledsoe led the Patriots and held back 3 teams including the Patriots. Kurt Warner led the Rams and Cardinals to the Super Bowl but held the New York Giants back. I can go on...

 

Football is a team game. The modern game is about coaching as much as it is about players. In the old NFL, teams lined up 11 on 11 and the better team prevailed. If you had Jim Brown, you had a guy that was physically dominant, you gave him the ball, he ran over everyone, and you won games and championships. Now, talent is much more evenly distributed and evolved. (If you don't believe it look at all the worst-to-firsts, late season runs, and teams that nobody predicts doing very well over the last few years -- indeed, the Bills are the anomaly in that they are one of the few dysfunctional organizations that seems to find a way to blow it each and every year.) Modern football is about match-ups, exploiting weaknesses, game planning, systems, play calling, sets, formations, packages, clock management, proper technique, keeping the team focused. And, guess what? The QB doesn't do any of that. That's why you see guys like Grossman, Johnson, Delhomme, Gannon, Dilfer, Collins, Chandler, McNair, Bledsoe, O'Donnell, and Humphries "drag their teams" all the way to the Super Bowl in the salary cap era. It's why winning teams and franchises that stay in the hunt invest in and pay for good front offices and coaches.

 

This post doesnt even make sense...

 

First off...St Louis and AZ were doormats in this league until um, who? Kurt Warner...

 

Patriots were a doormat in this league until um, who? Bledsoe

 

Green Bay had been a long time door mat to barely average team in the mordern era until um who? Farve

 

Cowboys were one of the worst teams in the league until who? Aikman

 

Miami has been terrible since the lost of who? Marino

 

Indy struggled with relevancy until who? Manning

 

Seattle was an inrrelevant doormat for years until who? Hasselbeck

 

49ers were doormats until they got who? Joe Montanna

 

What did Miami do last year? Squeeked out 1 win...what happened this year? They brought in Pennington and won the division behind his solid play that saw him win comeback player of the year...we have more talent at WR than him, a lot more...

 

How did Denver do after Elway retired? What about Buffalo, how have we done since Kelly left?

 

We can go on and on about teams who were bottom feeders in the league until they developed a productive QB. The lengths people will go to validate Trents lack of production is astounding...even trying to down play the one position that touches the ball EVERY single snap when in the game.

 

I mean come on, the way you down play the significance of a QB is mind boggling. Sure teams like the Ravens won a SB with Dilfer, but it wasnt because of Dilfer, they won in spite of Dilfer with one of the greatest D's of all time allowing the Ravens to pass a low amount of times and pound the ball with Jamal Lewis. Same goes for the Bucs who won with an slightly above average QB in Johnson and a sufficating D that dominated the SB and the NFL that year.

 

Look at the last 20 years of SB winners...tell me how many of those teams didnt have good QB's that year. You will NOT win in the NFL with kind of production we have had...there is no denying that no matter how much you want to. Doesnt mean Trent doesnt make a big leap, this thread had NOTHING to do with what he may become...just what plagued us to a back to back 7-9 record, and it wasnt about just Trent, it was about the overall QB play from him and JP...

[The Senator]

Good job.

Fine post.

[Gordio]

This post doesnt even make sense...

 

First off...St Louis and AZ were doormats in this league until um, who? Kurt Warner...

 

Patriots were a doormat in this league until um, who? Bledsoe

 

Green Bay had been a long time door mat to barely average team in the mordern era until um who? Farve

 

Cowboys were one of the worst teams in the league until who? Aikman

 

Miami has been terrible since the lost of who? Marino

 

Indy struggled with relevancy until who? Manning

 

Seattle was an inrrelevant doormat for years until who? Hasselbeck

 

49ers were doormats until they got who? Joe Montanna

 

What did Miami do last year? Squeeked out 1 win...what happened this year? They brought in Pennington and won the division behind his solid play that saw him win comeback player of the year...we have more talent at WR than him, a lot more...

 

How did Denver do after Elway retired? What about Buffalo, how have we done since Kelly left?

 

We can go on and on about teams who were bottom feeders in the league until they developed a productive QB. The lengths people will go to validate Trents lack of production is astounding...even trying to down play the one position that touches the ball EVERY single snap when in the game.

 

I mean come on, the way you down play the significance of a QB is mind boggling. Sure teams like the Ravens won a SB with Dilfer, but it wasnt because of Dilfer, they won in spite of Dilfer with one of the greatest D's of all time allowing the Ravens to pass a low amount of times and pound the ball with Jamal Lewis. Same goes for the Bucs who won with an slightly above average QB in Johnson and a sufficating D that dominated the SB and the NFL that year.

 

Look at the last 20 years of SB winners...tell me how many of those teams didnt have good QB's that year. You will NOT win in the NFL with kind of production we have had...there is no denying that no matter how much you want to. Doesnt mean Trent doesnt make a big leap, this thread had NOTHING to do with what he may become...just what plagued us to a back to back 7-9 record, and it wasnt about just Trent, it was about the overall QB play from him and JP...

 

I really think the problem is that we have been dealt such lousy qb play ever since Kelly retired that people have forgotten how much a franchise qb means to a team. I laugh when I hear people say "oh we just need a guy to manage a game". I do not want to settle for a game manager as my qb, I want a qb that will go into a hostile environment like Foxboro & make a play to win the game. Eventually, in the NFL you are going to need your qb to step up & win a game or two. You are kidding yourself if you do not think that.

[Neuf]

Ok, I am just so baffled by those who claim QB is not the problem and blame everything on DJ, Ralph, Peters, or DE...So I am going to spell it out for you right here in black and white...QB PRODUCTION...of should I say LACK of production has been the biggest factor to our losing seasons the last 2 years. Not saying, DE isnt a major need, or that DJ didnt make mistakes, but no other factor has held this club back as much as QB production...

 

Seriously look at these stats. These are the combined stats of JP and Trent for the last 2 seasons where all the blame is being put on DJ...Once you see these stats, ask yourself "How can a coach win in the NFL with this little producton and insane amount of turnovers from his QB's, the most important position on the field?" Not to mention, this is with our staff being incredibly cautious with our QB's and limiting the risks they take, yet they still turn the ball over an embarrasing amount of times...

 

2007:

Yards: 2834 = 177 yards per game

TD's: 11

INT's 14

TD:INT ratio: .79:1

Sacks: 26

 

2008:

Yards: 3283 = 205 yards per game

TD's: 13

INT's: 15

TD:INT ratio: .87:1

Sacks: 38

 

Summary, in 32 games our QB's have passed for only 24 TD's total (unbelievably pathetic), 29 INT's (awful), have a TD:INT ratio less than 1:1 at .83:1, average ONLY 191.16 yards per game (incredibly pathetic) and have been sacked 64 times (or twice a game, not terrible, but not very good).

 

Also, during that span, Trent has 5 LOST fumbles and JP has 6 LOST fumbles for another 11 turnovers...so TD to turnover ratio plummets to .60:1 when you factor that in...(horrendous)

 

How is DJ supposed to win when in the last 32 games his QB's passed pathetically for:

1. ONLY 24 TD's

2. ONLY 191 yards per game

3. Turned the ball over 40 times with 29 INT's

4. Have TD:INT ratio of a pathetic .83:1

5. Have been sacked 64 times

 

Seriously? How? I know someone is going to argue that the coaching scheme was too predicatable and simple...well what the h*ll do you expect them to do with the passing scheme when the QB's are performing so poorly? Make it more complicated? Everytime they start showing confidence in the QB's and expand, they let the staff down and regress...therefore the scheme stays simple...

 

So, please expalin to me how that HORRIBLE production is less of a factor than our sack total or our coaching staff...

 

The fact we won 7 games both years is a MIRACLE when you also factor in the massive injuries in 2007 and the critical losses of Crowell and Schobel this year as well as the injuries to other players...Even if we had no injuries, winning 7 games either year with this pathetic QB production is still a miracle.

 

Now for you Trent supporters...read carefully...THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION OF WHAT TRENT WILL BE ONE DAY, ITS A DISCUSSION OF WHAT OUR BIGGEST PROBLEM WAS IN 2007 AND 2008. Potential has ZERO relevance when analyzing actual play on the field as potential is based on something that HAS NOT HAPPENED YET...and this discussion is on what has already happened.

[Sisyphean Bills]

This post doesnt even make sense...

 

First off...St Louis and AZ were doormats in this league until um, who? Kurt Warner...

Dick Vermeil came in and turned the organization inside out.

Patriots were a doormat in this league until um, who? Bledsoe

Bill Parcells came to town, new ownership, and they got Bill Belichick to come back.

Green Bay had been a long time door mat to barely average team in the mordern era until um who? Farve

Mike Holmgren and Ron Wolf came to town. Holmgren taught Favre how to be a QB and to play in the WCO.

What did Miami do last year? Squeeked out 1 win...what happened this year? They brought in Pennington and won the division behind his solid play that saw him win comeback player of the year.

Are you serious? The only reason Miami won last year was Pennington?! So, football is an individual sport where success is defined simply by who is under center. Good. Drew Brees is a great QB, and how's that working out for ya?

 

Yes, having a good QB is a good thing. But there are numerous counterexamples of teams that did very well with less than exceptional QBing and teams that failed in spite of great QBing (like Marino and Kelly), so your correlation has vanished before you started say nothing of your previously disproven causality.

[Gordio]

Dick Vermeil came in and turned the organization inside out.Bill Parcells came to town, new ownership, and they got Bill Belichick to come back.Mike Holmgren and Ron Wolf came to town. Holmgren taught Favre how to be a QB and to play in the WCO.Are you serious? The only reason Miami won last year was Pennington?! So, football is an individual sport where success is defined simply by who is under center. Good. Drew Brees is a great QB, and how's that working out for ya?

 

 

It might not be an individual sport, but the QB position is a hell of alot more important then you & a few other posters on this board would like to have everybody believe. BTW, Dree Brees did lead the Saints to their only appearance in the NFC championship game a few years back.

[Alphadawg7]

It might not be an individual sport, but the QB position is a hell of alot more important then you & a few other posters on this board would like to have everybody believe. BTW, Dree Brees did lead the Saints to their only appearance in the NFC championship game a few years back.

 

Exactly...funny thing was if JP had QB'd most of those games instead of Trent, they would all be trying to hang JP and blaming the QB as everyone did, even though JP's 2006 season is better than anything Trent has done thus far...

[Alphadawg7]

Dick Vermeil came in and turned the organization inside out.Bill Parcells came to town, new ownership, and they got Bill Belichick to come back.Mike Holmgren and Ron Wolf came to town. Holmgren taught Favre how to be a QB and to play in the WCO.Are you serious? The only reason Miami won last year was Pennington?! So, football is an individual sport where success is defined simply by who is under center. Good. Drew Brees is a great QB, and how's that working out for ya?

 

Yes, having a good QB is a good thing. But there are numerous counterexamples of teams that did very well with less than exceptional QBing and teams that failed in spite of great QBing (like Marino and Kelly), so your correlation has vanished before you started say nothing of your previously disproven causality.

 

LMAO...ok, so Farve would have stunk without Holmgren...and Vermiel is why the rams won...lol...

 

geezus...this is just getting hysterically bizarre...

 

Is that you Joaquin Phoenix?

[Magox]

LMAO...ok, so Farve would have stunk without Holmgren...and Vermiel is why the rams won...lol...

 

geezus...this is just getting hysterically bizarre...

 

Is that you Joaquin Phoenix?

You are combative, argumentative and you believe that you have to prove your point that your right every single time and if people don't agree with you, then you pout and argue some more.

 

I think your popularity rating in here is just as impressive as G.W Bush

[The Senator]

You are combative, argumentative and you believe that you have to prove your point that your right every single time and if people don't agree with you, then you pout and argue some more.

 

I think your popularity rating in here is just as impressive as G.W Bush

that's 'cause he's 12.

 

good post, though...LMAO...hahaha

[Heels20X6]

LMAO...ok, so Farve would have stunk without Holmgren...and Vermiel is why the rams won...lol...

 

geezus...this is just getting hysterically bizarre...

 

Is that you Joaquin Phoenix?

 

 

The sheer idiocy of everything you post would make a much better documentary than the one they are doing about Joaquin...

 

We can call it: "The Moron Who Spends His Entire Day on a Message Board Trying to Convince People That There Is Only One Legitimate Factor in a Football Game - QB Play. Too bad Everyone Stopped Listening to him after Post# 3"

 

The title is a little long, but it seems to be testing well with our intended demographic.

[thebug]

Exactly...funny thing was if JP had QB'd most of those games instead of Trent, they would all be trying to hang JP and blaming the QB as everyone did, even though JP's 2006 season is better than anything Trent has done thus far...

 

So the truth finally comes out.

[timba]

But that is simply not true of the bills teams last year. Go actually watch the games. Our qbs in most of the games had plenty of time to throw the ball last year. The poor qb play last year & Dick Jauron where the 2 biggest reasons the bills did not get into the playoffs last year.

 

I did watch the games, and it was the lack of consistency that killed us. That includes the O-Line, it was anybody's guess who would miss a block on the next play. They did have their stretches where they looked solid, but most of the games? who are you trying to fool? Our 'pro bowl' tackle gave up something like 11 sacks this year and he's supposed to be our best lineman.

 

I'm not trying to defend the QB play and say there is no fault on them, the Cleveland game gave us all plenty evidence there is work to be done. I am saying that if there were some guys that the QB could actually rely on, we could really see what we've got. That is the very reason that the loss of Josh Reed was so big - Trent lost the guy he could rely on.

[BillsVet]

The problem with this assessment is most of the examples he gives he is comparing the qbs in their prime to same guys in the tail end of the careers. Comparing a young healthy culpepper in Minn to the old has been gimp that played in detroit, a mid 90s brett favre to the washed up version who played in NY & a young Jeff garcia in SF to the Jeff Garcia that played in Tampa.

 

Ask a Green Bay Packer fan who was the most important player on that Super Bowl team & ask a NYJ fan what was the single most thing that held the Jets back this year. I bet 9 out of 10 fans say Brett Favre in both scenerios.

 

Great post...excellent assessment.

[Alphadawg7]

Great post...excellent assessment.

 

But you posted great post to the very post he is disputing and now you are saying his disagreement is the excellent post?

[timba]

I really think the problem is that we have been dealt such lousy qb play ever since Kelly retired that people have forgotten how much a franchise qb means to a team. I laugh when I hear people say "oh we just need a guy to manage a game". I do not want to settle for a game manager as my qb, I want a qb that will go into a hostile environment like Foxboro & make a play to win the game. Eventually, in the NFL you are going to need your qb to step up & win a game or two. You are kidding yourself if you do not think that.

 

How many 4th quarter wins did Trent have to start the year? Question posed, I agree that a more cut throat QB [EDIT - wow me way to finish a thought...] would be great; however, the OP is about whether or not QB was our biggest problem.

[Alphadawg7]

You are combative, argumentative and you believe that you have to prove your point that your right every single time and if people don't agree with you, then you pout and argue some more.

 

I think your popularity rating in here is just as impressive as G.W Bush

 

Oh please...its a topic discussion thread, so because I DISCUSS the topic you want to label it as combative...sorry I dont just resort to the style of you "Magot", "The Janitor", and "Jillspet" and start slandering peeps on here and then move on to the next thread and do it all over again...

 

Many times on here I have said great post to those who thought differently, I dont care if its right or wrong, just enjoy talking football...its the other posters who start the insults and combative approach...and guess what, it only happens when someone dare question the performance of the beloved Trent Edwards...its like blasphemy on here.

 

I only get annoyed with jackoff posts like your usual...

 

Funny, how my threads usually keep going and are generally full of football discussion with a few select trolls here and there...

[Sisyphean Bills]

The problem with this assessment is most of the examples he gives he is comparing the qbs in their prime to same guys in the tail end of the careers. Comparing a young healthy culpepper in Minn to the old has been gimp that played in detroit, a mid 90s brett favre to the washed up version who played in NY & a young Jeff garcia in SF to the Jeff Garcia that played in Tampa.

 

Ask a Green Bay Packer fan who was the most important player on that Super Bowl team & ask a NYJ fan what was the single most thing that held the Jets back this year. I bet 9 out of 10 fans say Brett Favre in both scenerios.

Actually, it was just easier to find some obvious examples that way. There are examples like Gannon and Elway that don't fit your simplistic explanation. Bledsoe had success very early and struggled in the middle and late. The landscape is endlessly varied and the terms are piss poorly defined, so I'm not going to argue with your obtuseness.

[Ramius]

So, by this theory Daunte Culpepper is the guy that held the Lions back to 0-16 but was also the guy that was good enough to lead the Vikings to a #1 seed in the salary cap era. Trent Dilfer was the guy that held the Bucs back but led the Ravens to a Super Bowl victory. Brett Favre won a Super Bowl in Green Bay but also held them back in seasons they stunk as he held back the Jets. Jeff Garcia has been to 4 Pro Bowls and led the 49ers to the playoffs as well as Tampa but held back 5 teams including the 49ers and Tampa. Rex Grossman dragged the Bears to a Super Bowl and has also held the Bears back ever since. Neal O'Donnell led the Steelers and held back the Jets. Bledsoe led the Patriots and held back 3 teams including the Patriots. Kurt Warner led the Rams and Cardinals to the Super Bowl but held the New York Giants back. I can go on...

 

Football is a team game. The modern game is about coaching as much as it is about players. In the old NFL, teams lined up 11 on 11 and the better team prevailed. If you had Jim Brown, you had a guy that was physically dominant, you gave him the ball, he ran over everyone, and you won games and championships. Now, talent is much more evenly distributed and evolved. (If you don't believe it look at all the worst-to-firsts, late season runs, and teams that nobody predicts doing very well over the last few years -- indeed, the Bills are the anomaly in that they are one of the few dysfunctional organizations that seems to find a way to blow it each and every year.) Modern football is about match-ups, exploiting weaknesses, game planning, systems, play calling, sets, formations, packages, clock management, proper technique, keeping the team focused. And, guess what? The QB doesn't do any of that. That's why you see guys like Grossman, Johnson, Delhomme, Gannon, Dilfer, Collins, Chandler, McNair, Bledsoe, O'Donnell, and Humphries "drag their teams" all the way to the Super Bowl in the salary cap era. It's why winning teams and franchises that stay in the hunt invest in and pay for good front offices and coaches.

 

Excellent post.

 

While i wont take away that you need good QB play (note, i said good QB play, not necessarily a good QB) to win a Super Bowl, it is much mroe important to build a team before searching for the elusive "franchise QB." Some QBs are simply that damn good out of college. Most aren't. So build a solid team and then go QB chasing.

[Stenbar]

LMAO...ok, so Farve would have stunk without Holmgren...and Vermiel is why the rams won...lol...

geezus...this is just getting hysterically bizarre...

 

Is that you Joaquin Phoenix?

That and MArshall Faulk, Torry Holt, Isac Bruce, Orlando Pace....All better than MOST anyone else int the NFL at that time....The Qb is a key component but hardly THE reason...

[Sisyphean Bills]

Excellent post.

 

While i wont take away that you need good QB play (note, i said good QB play, not necessarily a good QB) to win a Super Bowl, it is much mroe important to build a team before searching for the elusive "franchise QB." Some QBs are simply that damn good out of college. Most aren't. So build a solid team and then go QB chasing.

Thanks, Ram. I think it is a better approach to fix what you can and transition where you have to. Chasing QBs is what the Bills have done since Jim Kelly retired and it has been a foolish strategy as evidenced by the results.

[Alphadawg7]

Excellent post.

 

While i wont take away that you need good QB play (note, i said good QB play, not necessarily a good QB) to win a Super Bowl, it is much mroe important to build a team before searching for the elusive "franchise QB." Some QBs are simply that damn good out of college. Most aren't. So build a solid team and then go QB chasing.

 

Ok, if QB is so hard to fill, and we can all agree it usally takes 2 to 3 years for a QB to really progress, how does builiding a team first, then developing a QB make sense? Unless your only goal is to be a mediocre team during that stretch and be a mild thought to maybe make the playoffs (sound familiar), you are going to need a QB. You dont want your team peaking in other areas and then go and try and fill the hardest position on the field to fill...

 

In todays Free Agency and salary cap era, a teams window of opportunity is generally 3 to 4 years...so if we spend 2 or 3 seasons building up a team and then finally go out and try to find the QB and develop him, then by the time we finally develop a QB over a few seasons, the window is likely closed...

[Magox]

Oh please...its a topic discussion thread, so because I DISCUSS the topic you want to label it as combative...sorry I dont just resort to the style of you "Magot", "The Janitor", and "Jillspet" and start slandering peeps on here and then move on to the next thread and do it all over again...

 

Many times on here I have said great post to those who thought differently, I dont care if its right or wrong, just enjoy talking football...its the other posters who start the insults and combative approach...and guess what, it only happens when someone dare question the performance of the beloved Trent Edwards...its like blasphemy on here.

 

I only get annoyed with jackoff posts like your usual...

 

Funny, how my threads usually keep going and are generally full of football discussion with a few select trolls here and there...

awww

 

sounds like someone's little feelings got hurt

 

get upset, and pout, then call some one infantile names.

 

ok junior, I think mommy needs to use the computer, it's time to clean your room.

[Alphadawg7]

awww

 

sounds like someone's little feelings got hurt

 

get upset, and pout, then call some one infantile names.

 

ok junior, I think mommy needs to use the computer, it's time to clean your room.

 

Please, youre the king of obnoxious and insultive...actually, its a tie between you and senator...you two can figure out which of you is the Queen and which is the King...

 

Thats like Courtney Love ragging on Amy Whinehouse for substance abuse...or Rob Johnson coaching JP on how not to take a sack...

[Pneumonic]

Of course it is a team game but those who disregard the importance of a top QB in this league must not watch the same football games that I do.

 

This is indeed a QB driven league and teams without a top QB will go years, decades even, without even sniffing a shot at winning anything of significance.

 

Sure there are exceptions but in today's NFL it's all about the QB position .... and defense.

[reddogblitz]

Of course it is a team game but those who disregard the importance of a top QB in this league must not watch the same football games that I do.

 

This is indeed a QB driven league and teams without a top QB will go years, decades even, without even sniffing a shot at winning anything of significance.

 

Sure there are exceptions but in today's NFL it's all about the QB position .... and defense.

 

I agree. You need a QB that's going to make things happen and big plays. Look back at SB XLIII. One play I think it was 3rd and long and the Cardinals had Big Ben trapped in the backfield. He was able to get loose, run around, and find a receiver for the first down. Or the TD to Santonio Holmes at the very end.

 

To think that if you have a QB that "manages the game" and "doesn't make mistakes" and will go much over .500 is, IMHO, just plain wrong and delusional. You can coun't the teams on one hand who've won with this approach. I'm having a hard time thinking of any.

 

If you're QB play sucks, then you suck. Right now, our QB play sucks, and we suck.

[renfruzetz]

Using your stats: we are looking at 191 ypg passing, 12 TD's, 14.5 INT's and 32 sacks as a basic average?

 

Compare that to QB "X" who compiled 206 ypg, 17 TD's, 15 INT's and 46 sacks. The sacks would nearly offset the ypg difference and INT's are virtually identical. Trent has a QB rating five points higher while not having as many TD's.

 

Great argument except this mythical QB just won the Super Bowl.

[Gordio]

Using your stats: we are looking at 191 ypg passing, 12 TD's, 14.5 INT's and 32 sacks as a basic average?

 

Compare that to QB "X" who compiled 206 ypg, 17 TD's, 15 INT's and 46 sacks. The sacks would nearly offset the ypg difference and INT's are virtually identical. Trent has a QB rating five points higher while not having as many TD's.

 

Great argument except this mythical QB just won the Super Bowl.

 

 

Decent point but I will say this. If you watch Pittsburgh there are usually one or two plays in the game where big ben will make a play to keep the chains moving, keep a scoring drive going. You do not need your qb to throw for 300 yards every game but you will need a guy under center that needs to step up when the game is on the line. Tenn is a perfect example of this. All year I think everyone could agree that they had a game manager under center in Collins. They never asked him to make a play. What happens? In the playoffs, when they needed him to make a play it just was not there. They got bounced in the divisional round.

[bizell]

Decent point but I will say this. If you watch Pittsburgh there are usually one or two plays in the game where big ben will make a play to keep the chains moving, keep a scoring drive going. You do not need your qb to throw for 300 yards every game but you will need a guy under center that needs to step up when the game is on the line. Tenn is a perfect example of this. All year I think everyone could agree that they had a game manager under center in Collins. They never asked him to make a play. What happens? In the playoffs, when they needed him to make a play it just was not there. They got bounced in the divisional round.

 

Excellent point about numbers not always telling the full story.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Excellent point about numbers not always telling the full story.

Kerry Collins is not a great "franchise QB," but he is better than many and good enough to win games including playoff games. He's started in a Super Bowl for crying out loud. As for this past year, the Titans were dominating the game up until Chris Johnson went down with an injury and left the game. Laying the blame on Kerry Collins for that is a coach potato view of the game where all one watches is the football and the guy holding it. Also, it is not true that Collins never made a play last year.

[bizell]

Kerry Collins is not a great "franchise QB," but he is better than many and good enough to win games including playoff games. He's started in a Super Bowl for crying out loud. As for this past year, the Titans were dominating the game up until Chris Johnson went down with an injury and left the game. Laying the blame on Kerry Collins for that is a coach potato view of the game where all one watches is the football and the guy holding it.

 

Imo he wasn't 'blaming him', he was pointing out the differences between a guy like BenRo and Kerry Collins.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Imo he wasn't 'blaming him', he was pointing out the differences between a guy like BenRo and Kerry Collins.

Yes, but what are the differences? Big Ben has won 2 Super Bowls and Collins hasn't. So, Ben makes plays and Collins doesn't.

 

That's dumb. Of course, Collins made plays. Collins had bad luck in that his primary weapon went lame in the playoffs. If not for that, this whole argument is probably turned upside down and we're talking about how Collins is a better QB than Ben because the Titans won a Super Bowl.

 

It just boils down to the same argument over and over. Not so long ago, the problem with this team was the QB. He was no good and got sacked too much and ran around too much and should just throw the ball away. On the other hand, if he didn't complete enough passes, he was no good either. How does one take this? Is the QB supposed to block for himself? Is he supposed to create a running game by wishful thinking? Is he supposed to teach the coaches how to design plays and correct their bad calls with audibles every snap? Is he supposed to run the routes and catch his own passes? Is he in the war room on draft day selecting defensive backs?

 

But, to raise a doubt about this QB myopic view of football opens the door to straw men arguments, posturing, and wishful misrepresentation. For apparently, if you see more problems than simply the kid under center, you can't see that the kid under center has issues even if you've never stopped saying he had those issues even when the Polyannas were running around calling him Savior. Last offseason, some of the same people claiming QB play -- Trent Edwards is the QB -- is holding the team back now where throwing homophobic rhetoric around in defense of Edwards.

[Gordio]

Yes, but what are the differences? Big Ben has won 2 Super Bowls and Collins hasn't. So, Ben makes plays and Collins doesn't.

 

That's dumb. Of course, Collins made plays. Collins had bad luck in that his primary weapon went lame in the playoffs. If not for that, this whole argument is probably turned upside down and we're talking about how Collins is a better QB than Ben because the Titans won a Super Bowl.

 

 

The point I am trying to make is that when the Titans needed Collins to make a play in the biggest game of the year he did not come thru. & once again you are comparing a younger Collins when he played for the Giants to a much older version of Collins in Tenn. Anybody that has a clue about football would never mistake Collins as a better qb then Big Ben. & they were up 10-7 when Johnson went down, I highly call that dominating the game although certainly having Johnson healthy would of increased the chances of a titans victory.

[Alphadawg7]

Using your stats: we are looking at 191 ypg passing, 12 TD's, 14.5 INT's and 32 sacks as a basic average?

 

Compare that to QB "X" who compiled 206 ypg, 17 TD's, 15 INT's and 46 sacks. The sacks would nearly offset the ypg difference and INT's are virtually identical. Trent has a QB rating five points higher while not having as many TD's.

 

Great argument except this mythical QB just won the Super Bowl.

 

The difference you are ignoring here as well as the poster who brought up Collins is that Pitt and Tenn have ELITE, dominating defenses coupled with a powerful running attack that can keep the score close where a few plays from the QB can pull out a win. Ben isnt asked to win games...he is there to balance the run game out and make plays when needed so his D and run game can run the clock out.

 

The only way you can win in this league with such little production from your QB is with a dominating defense...we dont have that either...so we are not going to get very far unless Trent either takes a big leap forward or our D suddenly becomes a top 3 D....

 

And the idea of comparing Big Ben to Trent as if they are similar is just crazy...there isnt a team in the league that would even consider Trent over Ben...