Trent Edwards' Arm Strength

[Adam]

Sure they are, except that RJ had better touch, and was more accurate. JP is actually better at getting the ball away; where he throws it is another sad issue.

Show me what a QB does in tight situations in the fourth quarter, and I will show you what type of QB he is. I remember Johnson's second game as a Bill- against Miami. Don't remember the score, but the Bills were down by more than a FG and less than a TD. Johnson was slow in bringing the Bills in and out of the huddle and appeared confused at the line...time expired and we lost.

 

JP has been the opposite- he runs that late 2-minute drill well- maybe not always successfully, but he doesn't appear lost. At the stage of development he is at, I like that. He has his flaws, but he is much further ahead in that aspect than I expected. He was one of the greenest QB prospects I have ever seen when we drafted him, and I didn't expect him to be on the field for significant time until year 4- and I mean year 4 or practicing, not of his contract.

 

I like what I have seen of Edwards so far. He has his flaws, and he hasn't shown much in the 2-minute drill yet. Thats to be expected, he has no experience yet.

 

Which QB would I like in there? Personally, I don't care- I just want to stick with one guy, but I still want the other guy on the roster as long as we can keep him. Some fans think its a bad thing to have 2 good QB's...they are wrong.

[Ramius]

IMO, after watching every play and pass he made, in pre-season and the regular season, Trent Edwards did one thing very, very well. It's a very important thing, and some quarterbacks cannot and do not ever do it. But it's still one thing. And that one thing made people here assume WAY more than that one thing, because it showed a quality of other essential things, and because the vast majority of rookies coming into the league do not show that one thing so quickly, or so well. But that one thing is less than 20% of quarterbacking to me, hence the 80% comment. To me, 80% was a conservative estimate not an over estimate.

 

That one thing is as follows: Trent Edwards showed a great ability to walk into a game, call a play from the sidelines, step up to the line, look at the defense before the snap, decide where he is likely going to go with the ball, take the snap, drop back, quickly set up and make a quick decision (he had already made) and throw a very nice looking short pass usually right into the WRs arms. That's what he did, and he did it very well. But that's also MOST of what he did well.

 

What people extrapolated from that, was the dreaded "poise" word, because most young QBs cannot do that so quickly if ever. It's not something Losman is as good as Edwards is at 4 years later. It shows potential to be a very good quarterback in this league because that is one of the hardest things to do. But it's still less than 20% to me about the job of quarterbacking. POISE is something you show when THERE IS A RUSH not when you take a three step drop and immediately throw the ball. That shows poise for a rookie at that one thing, but that one thing does not translate to what poise really means for a quarterback, which is handling the rush and handling the plays late in the game.

 

When Edwards WAS rushed hard he looked VERY pedestrian the entire season. When he was asked to go deep or throw hard intermediate routes, he rarely looked good doing it. He looked good a couple times, in fact, he looked fabulous a couple times. But the vast, vast majority of his passes more than 15 yards in the air were very average to me.

 

He didn't look well late in the game, with very minimal exceptions. He didn't handle the rush well. He didn't really READ defenses except pre-snap. That is a HUGE thing, but it is stil less than 50% of what reading defenses means and he didn't show a capacity for that at all. He dumped the ball off far too quickly whenever the rush came and usually it gained a few yards before we punted. That isn't reading defenses the way people attribute that trait to him. He simply didn't do it that well, that much.

 

He didn't show the capacity to make huge plays. He didn't put points on the board. He did throw inopportune INTs at the end of the game. He didn't avoid the rush with an ability to scramble very well. He is VERY stubborn in the pocket, which is totally noble and he shows he's fearless, but it will get him killed in the NFL worse than it got him killed in college where he was killed by being stubborn in the pocket. It's the reason I will bet anyone he gets hurt this year and misses games. It's not because he isn't tough, he's enormously tough, he's just not smart in the pocket when it comes to sensing and avoiding hits.

 

So all those things in the last four paragraphs make up the 80% of what he hasn't shown very much at all to me. A lot of it CAN be learned and a lot of it is very hard to be learned. I am not saying he can't ever do those other things but he hasn't shown he can do them yet at all at this level. The fact that he can throw a long ball for a completion once does not mean he has the arm strength to be a solid quarterback in this league. He has to show he can do that consistently.

 

 

 

He has a chance to be very good in this league. OF COURSE I KNOW HE WAS A ROOKIE. But he hasn't shown most of those actual traits that make QBs very good in this league. He has consistently shown only one of them. It's a big one, without doubt. But it's only one.

 

Amen and excellent post as usual, Kelly.

[Fan in Chicago]

Of course he did. He was much better. 5, or even 4 wins as a starter is a couple of years worth for Losman.

 

Care to explain that sentence ?

[1billsfan]

Of course he did. He was much better. 5, or even 4 wins as a starter is a couple of years worth for Losman. Instead of tossing infield practice or throwing 30 yards in altitude sideline quick outs that wound up in the seats, Edwards sustained drives, this as a rookie. Do you think that Jauron benched JP for no reason? Please be serious.

 

I did the exact same thing that you are doing now. I watched RJ, saw his talent, and was convinced that he would be a great quarterback. I readily admit this, and I was flat out wrong. It doesn't work in itself. It takes more than raw talent to quarterback an NFL Team. Otherwise, Ryan Leif and Jeff George would be in the Hall of Fame instead of Len Dawson and Joe Montana.

 

Forget about JP. He is second rate. At least Trent has a chance to be a winner. I like his odds myself.

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I'm getting sick of this needless JP Losman bashfest you're currently on. JP Losman had 12 freaking touchdown passes his last seven games of the 2006 season. Not since Bledsoe's off the hook first seven games (15 TDs) of 2002 have we seen that kind of QB output from a Bills QB since our hero Jim Kelly. Yet you are so quick to dismiss him as a second rate loser. A guy who clearly was a development project who actually showed on the field for an extended stretch that he could be the dangerous QB we've been waiting for. 2007 was a FUBAR situation that was mainly the result of a fearful coach and his trusty noodle-brained side kick Little Stevie Fairchild who wouldn't know an unpredictable and creative gameplan if it hit them in their dim-witted faces. Marshawn Lynch's pitiful 18 reception total is all you need to know about how good they are as coaches and gameplanners.

 

I happen to think that where ever Losman ends up, he's going to have a hell of a second act. I think that we as Bills fans are probably going to have front seats too, when he lands on the Jets squad in 2009 and takes it to his former team for not going the distance on his development. What is your beef with JP and those who still believe that his development is nearly complete and he's ready to roll over opposing defenses? Do we have to apologize to you because we want to see him compete for a starting job? As long as he's a Bill I can still root for him to do well, right? Losman has many faults, but I think that they're the kind that would disapate once the line, receiver and bad coaching situations had settled.

 

If Trent is indeed light-years ahead of Losman then shouldn't he be able to net 12 touchdown passes in a seven game span? That would be a cool trick, wouldn't it? Too bad I don't think he has the arm to do it. I think that the rest of the NFL already knows that Trent throws a lousy long ball and to just flood the checkdown areas. Those last three games tell me that it's not just a theory, but a reality that Trent will have to dispell with passes over the top of the DBs heads early on in '08. Let's see who's right and who's wrong. But stop with the overreaching statements on Losman's abilities. You sound ridiculous and setting Edwards up for a bigtime fall from grace. I cannot wait to see this touchdown barrage from Trent in 2008! Light-years ahead, huh?

[Kelly the Dog]

He was reaching with the 80%, I think that even he will admit that.

Much of the rest was to provide a safety net for JP in case Trent plays well. It will be because the entire team is better, not because Trent, even in his rookie season, was better than Losman.

 

In other words.....a new JP excuse. A long term, original one at that.

Actually, 80% was an under-estimate. See above post.

 

As far as your safety net comment goes, I hadn't even considered Losman at all in my post. And Edwards play has nothing to do with Losman, IMO. But feel free to keep on reading other people's posts and then saying, "Since you weren't talking one iota about Losman, never considered talking about Losman or referred or implied anything about Losman whatsoever, I will.... and he sucks."

[Dan III]

It's not about his arm, but Vic writes about Trent today.. http://www.nfl.com/news/story;jsessionid=4...mp;confirm=true

[Bill from NYC]

Actually, 80% was an under-estimate. See above post.

 

As far as your safety net comment goes, I hadn't even considered Losman at all in my post. And Edwards play has nothing to do with Losman, IMO. But feel free to keep on reading other people's posts and then saying, "Since you weren't talking one iota about Losman, never considered talking about Losman or referred or implied anything about Losman whatsoever, I will.... and he sucks."

 

We both know that if it were up to you, Losman would be starting. That would be it, because unlike the Bills coaches, and most of the NFL community, you think that Losman is a good qb.

 

Keep those excuses coming! At least this latest one was both long term and original.

[Kelly the Dog]

We both know that if it were up to you, Losman would be starting. That would be it, because unlike the Bills coaches, and most of the NFL community, you think that Losman is a good qb.

 

Keep those excuses coming! At least this latest one was both long term and original.

I also think that Jessica Alba has a great ass, but I wasn't talking or mentioning or implying anything about Jessica Alba's ass, any more than I was talking about Losman's ability or lack thereof. I was ONLY talking about Trent Edwards. You, on the other hand, when confronted with the comment, "Doesn't Jessica Alba have a great ass?", invariably reply, "J.P. Losman sucks!

[Adam]

We both know that if it were up to you, Losman would be starting. That would be it, because unlike the Bills coaches, and most of the NFL community, you think that Losman is a good qb.

 

Keep those excuses coming! At least this latest one was both long term and original.

Bill- thinking Losman is/will be a good QB doesn't mean that you think he should start. It is not healthy for the psyche of a team to continue to change QB's. I hope Trent keeps the job, but I think Losman is developing into a good QB, and I am glad we still have him.

 

Losman will continue to develop at his pace and so will Edwards. The fans can act as impatient as they want, but they will wait until Edwards develops because there aren't many options other than the Bills. Be glad you have a football team

[keepthefaith]

I also think that Jessica Alba has a great ass, but I wasn't talking or mentioning or implying anything about Jessica Alba's ass, any more than I was talking about Losman's ability or lack thereof. I was ONLY talking about Trent Edwards. You, on the other hand, when confronted with the comment, "Doesn't Jessica Alba have a great ass?", invariably reply, "J.P. Losman sucks!

 

I'll second the observation about Jessica Alba.

[MDH]

We both know that if it were up to you, Losman would be starting. That would be it, because unlike the Bills coaches, and most of the NFL community, you think that Losman is a good qb.

 

Keep those excuses coming! At least this latest one was both long term and original.

 

What excuses Bill? He didn't make a single excuse for Losman, he actually spoke almost solely about Edwards. Of course, you have yet to speak to anybody's points about Edwards and continue on your inane Losman crusade despite the fact that Losman isn't the subject of this thread.

[ax4782]

It's not about his arm, but Vic writes about Trent today.. http://www.nfl.com/news/story;jsessionid=4...mp;confirm=true

 

I hope a lot of people here read that post too. I did. I particularly liked the part where Vic explains that most of the NFL community sees the Bills as an up and coming team with the potential to be very good this year, contrary to what the Marshall Faulk's and some people on this board seem to think. I was really impressed by Trent's comments over the past two weeks and about the offensive changes they are making this offseason. I see Trent taking the time to stick around after practice to work on routes with his receivers, going to Florida to work specifically with Lee Evans, and to Arizona to work with Robert Royal. I NEVER once heard of a QB on the Bills squad doing this since Jim Kelly in the early and mid-90's. That type of talk the talk AND walk the walk attitude is what we have been missing for a long time. As for comments about Trent's arm, anyone who comments that he throws a horrible long ball, wasn't watching any games last season. Trent actually threw a very good and technically sound long ball in a number of games last season. And the fact that two of the Bills' last three games were played in conditions where the winds were so high that any pass over six yards was hitting nothing but wind and turf apparently doesn't factor into the thought process. Kelly took a couple of years to get used to the winds at then Rich Stadium, as does any passer. IIRC even when the weather was good, too many of JP's passes were hitting the ground before they got to wide open receivers. I would rather have a guy with an arm that is accurate at short and intermediate distance, but can throw the long ball when required, than a guy with a cannon who is extremely inaccurate (a la Michael Vick and JP Losman). I supported Losman, I bought his jersey, I cheered for him long after many gave up and wanted Edwards. I can't give him another shot. He said it himself. Last year at Jacksonville was his make or break game and his ship broke in half and sank like the Titanic. When his "two minute leadership" was most needed and we were down six in the fourth, he promptly walked up to the line threw a HORRIBLE pass that was picked off and lost us the game. Sorry, but he had his chance. He had parts of four seasons to show that he could get the job done. In thirty two starts he won TEN games. That is abysmal even for a guy who is as green as some people claim. I wanted him to be good too. Everyone here did. But like almost every other TD prospect, he was a poor selection.

[Ramius]

I hope a lot of people here read that post too. I did. I particularly liked the part where Vic explains that most of the NFL community sees the Bills as an up and coming team with the potential to be very good this year, contrary to what the Marshall Faulk's and some people on this board seem to think. I was really impressed by Trent's comments over the past two weeks and about the offensive changes they are making this offseason. I see Trent taking the time to stick around after practice to work on routes with his receivers, going to Florida to work specifically with Lee Evans, and to Arizona to work with Robert Royal. I NEVER once heard of a QB on the Bills squad doing this since Jim Kelly in the early and mid-90's. That type of talk the talk AND walk the walk attitude is what we have been missing for a long time. As for comments about Trent's arm, anyone who comments that he throws a horrible long ball, wasn't watching any games last season. Trent actually threw a very good and technically sound long ball in a number of games last season. And the fact that two of the Bills' last three games were played in conditions where the winds were so high that any pass over six yards was hitting nothing but wind and turf apparently doesn't factor into the thought process. Kelly took a couple of years to get used to the winds at then Rich Stadium, as does any passer. IIRC even when the weather was good, too many of JP's passes were hitting the ground before they got to wide open receivers. I would rather have a guy with an arm that is accurate at short and intermediate distance, but can throw the long ball when required, than a guy with a cannon who is extremely inaccurate (a la Michael Vick and JP Losman). I supported Losman, I bought his jersey, I cheered for him long after many gave up and wanted Edwards. I can't give him another shot. He said it himself. Last year at Jacksonville was his make or break game and his ship broke in half and sank like the Titanic. When his "two minute leadership" was most needed and we were down six in the fourth, he promptly walked up to the line threw a HORRIBLE pass that was picked off and lost us the game. Sorry, but he had his chance. He had parts of four seasons to show that he could get the job done. In thirty two starts he won TEN games. That is abysmal even for a guy who is as green as some people claim. I wanted him to be good too. Everyone here did. But like almost every other TD prospect, he was a poor selection.

 

Anytime you basically tell a young QB, or make it blatantly obvious, that his career comes down to a single start, it a sure sign that your team's QB (and offensive) situation is FUBAR'ed.

[Ramius]

I'm getting sick of this needless JP Losman bashfest you're currently on. JP Losman had 12 freaking touchdown passes his last seven games of the 2006 season. Not since Bledsoe's off the hook first seven games (15 TDs) of 2002 have we seen that kind of QB output from a Bills QB since our hero Jim Kelly. Yet you are so quick to dismiss him as a second rate loser. A guy who clearly was a development project who actually showed on the field for an extended stretch that he could be the dangerous QB we've been waiting for. 2007 was a FUBAR situation that was mainly the result of a fearful coach and his trusty noodle-brained side kick Little Stevie Fairchild who wouldn't know an unpredictable and creative gameplan if it hit them in their dim-witted faces. Marshawn Lynch's pitiful 18 reception total is all you need to know about how good they are as coaches and gameplanners.

 

I happen to think that where ever Losman ends up, he's going to have a hell of a second act. I think that we as Bills fans are probably going to have front seats too, when he lands on the Jets squad in 2009 and takes it to his former team for not going the distance on his development. What is your beef with JP and those who still believe that his development is nearly complete and he's ready to roll over opposing defenses? Do we have to apologize to you because we want to see him compete for a starting job? As long as he's a Bill I can still root for him to do well, right? Losman has many faults, but I think that they're the kind that would disapate once the line, receiver and bad coaching situations had settled.

 

If Trent is indeed light-years ahead of Losman then shouldn't he be able to net 12 touchdown passes in a seven game span? That would be a cool trick, wouldn't it? Too bad I don't think he has the arm to do it. I think that the rest of the NFL already knows that Trent throws a lousy long ball and to just flood the checkdown areas. Those last three games tell me that it's not just a theory, but a reality that Trent will have to dispell with passes over the top of the DBs heads early on in '08. Let's see who's right and who's wrong. But stop with the overreaching statements on Losman's abilities. You sound ridiculous and setting Edwards up for a bigtime fall from grace. I cannot wait to see this touchdown barrage from Trent in 2008! Light-years ahead, huh?

 

Where does it come from? Go back and check the archives. Bill was a huge Bledsoe supporter (and giant Drew apologist) and was against JP from day 1. He never even gave JP a chance to succeed, because JP got the job after Bledsoe had painfully demonstrated he didnt have what it takes anymore. Whether it was trashing him about his haircut or trashing him for giving high-fives to his teammates after a good play.

 

That, and toss in the fact that Bill hated the trade up for JP. So obviously, its JP's fault that TD traded up for and drafted him, and another reason to hate him.

[1billsfan]

I hope a lot of people here read that post too. I did. I particularly liked the part where Vic explains that most of the NFL community sees the Bills as an up and coming team with the potential to be very good this year, contrary to what the Marshall Faulk's and some people on this board seem to think. I was really impressed by Trent's comments over the past two weeks and about the offensive changes they are making this offseason. I see Trent taking the time to stick around after practice to work on routes with his receivers, going to Florida to work specifically with Lee Evans, and to Arizona to work with Robert Royal. I NEVER once heard of a QB on the Bills squad doing this since Jim Kelly in the early and mid-90's. That type of talk the talk AND walk the walk attitude is what we have been missing for a long time. As for comments about Trent's arm, anyone who comments that he throws a horrible long ball, wasn't watching any games last season. Trent actually threw a very good and technically sound long ball in a number of games last season. And the fact that two of the Bills' last three games were played in conditions where the winds were so high that any pass over six yards was hitting nothing but wind and turf apparently doesn't factor into the thought process. Kelly took a couple of years to get used to the winds at then Rich Stadium, as does any passer. IIRC even when the weather was good, too many of JP's passes were hitting the ground before they got to wide open receivers. I would rather have a guy with an arm that is accurate at short and intermediate distance, but can throw the long ball when required, than a guy with a cannon who is extremely inaccurate (a la Michael Vick and JP Losman). I supported Losman, I bought his jersey, I cheered for him long after many gave up and wanted Edwards. I can't give him another shot. He said it himself. Last year at Jacksonville was his make or break game and his ship broke in half and sank like the Titanic. When his "two minute leadership" was most needed and we were down six in the fourth, he promptly walked up to the line threw a HORRIBLE pass that was picked off and lost us the game. Sorry, but he had his chance. He had parts of four seasons to show that he could get the job done. In thirty two starts he won TEN games. That is abysmal even for a guy who is as green as some people claim. I wanted him to be good too. Everyone here did. But like almost every other TD prospect, he was a poor selection.

 

So you want a pat on the back because you gave up on a "project" qb when he in fact turned into a project? The same guy who by the way threw 12 touchdown passes in the last seven games of 2006? Sorry, quitters don't deserve pats on the back. Sometime in the future we will ALL find out who the better QB ends up being. One game doesn't define Losman's still young career. What you stated is merely an opinion. I see little of Jim Kelly in Trent's "checkdown" game. Kelly was a guy who knew how to get the ball into the endzone, something the poised Trent still has yet to prove he can do on any sort of consistent basis. Losman proved he has this ability.

[C.Biscuit97]

I know, right?

 

Since I actually kind-of agreed with with you, I took some extra time to evaluate whether or not I was actually being objective or if I was just blindly spewing optimism, as you have done each and every offseason that preceded abysmally mediocre football by the Bills.

 

 

Yeah because we all know how terrible it is to be optimist about your favorite team. How dare I?

 

Btw, is Dusty Dvoracek still dominating offensive lines for the Bears???

[Dawgg]

Yeah because we all know how terrible it is to be optimist about your favorite team. How dare I?

 

Btw, is Dusty Dvoracek still dominating offensive lines for the Bears???

 

Touche!

Hey, I'm too much of a realist/pessimist for my own good. We'll see about good ole Dusty, as he's starting alongside Tommie Harris this year (who should be a Bill, btw!)

[C.Biscuit97]

Touche!

Hey, I'm too much of a realist/pessimist for my own good. We'll see about good ole Dusty, as he's starting alongside Tommie Harris this year (who should be a Bill, btw!)

 

 

Dusty "2 career tackles" Dvoracek is starting this year? I think that's an indication of how bad the Bears are. They may be the worst team in football this year.

[obie_wan]

That one thing is as follows: Trent Edwards showed a great ability to walk into a game, call a play from the sidelines, step up to the line, look at the defense before the snap, decide where he is likely going to go with the ball, take the snap, drop back, quickly set up and make a quick decision (he had already made) and throw a very nice looking short pass usually right into the WRs arms. That's what he did, and he did it very well. But that's also MOST of what he did well.

 

The ONE thing you give credit to Trent for is actually 3 things, which all by themselves is probably good enough without further improvement for a .500 record. This is much more than 20% of what a QB needs to be successful in the NFL.

 

1. pre-snap read He has shown the ability to identify the defense shown pre-snap and to recognize which WR will be the best to exploit the coverage. Does not lock onto 1 WR.

 

2. post-snap read - After the snap, he is able to recognize what the defense is actually doing and to confirm that his pre-snap read was proper. Remains to be seen if he will be able to identify various stunts and tricks while under heavy pressure, but experience will help greatly in this regard.

 

3. hit WR in stride to generate yards after catch This is a huge plus which allows those short passes to become threats to turn into long gainers and 1st downs. No defesne is scared of an offense which is limted to throwing come backs and hitches due to the inaccuracy of its QB. This skill will allow the Bills to incorporate the seam pass to the TE and the slant pass back in to the offense.

[Bmwolf21]

Don't forget Trent's uncanny ability to wave his arms frantically and fake audible so well that Rich Gannon picked it up after two plays...

[K-9]

name='1billsfan' date='Jun 23 2008, 05:21 PM' post='1062212']

...I'm getting sick of this needless JP Losman bashfest you're currently on. JP Losman had 12 freaking touchdown passes his last seven games of the 2006 season... .

 

... 2007 was a FUBAR situation that was mainly the result of a fearful coach and his trusty noodle-brained side kick Little Stevie Fairchild who wouldn't know an unpredictable and creative gameplan if it hit them in their dim-witted faces...

 

These two statements seem at odds. Weren't the same clueless HC and OC at the helm when JP tore it up those last 7 games in '06? What happened? Did the coaches just decide they didn't want anymore of that good thing in '07?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[keepthefaith]

name='1billsfan' date='Jun 23 2008, 05:21 PM' post='1062212']

 

 

These two statements seem at odds. Weren't the same clueless HC and OC at the helm when JP tore it up those last 7 games in '06? What happened? Did the coaches just decide they didn't want anymore of that good thing in '07?

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Three people that need to show me a lot this year.

 

Jauron

Turk

Trent

 

Show me that each of you is competent at what you're paid to do. None of them have done this yet.

[Kelly the Dog]

The ONE thing you give credit to Trent for is actually 3 things, which all by themselves is probably good enough without further improvement for a .500 record. This is much more than 20% of what a QB needs to be successful in the NFL.

 

1. pre-snap read He has shown the ability to identify the defense shown pre-snap and to recognize which WR will be the best to exploit the coverage. Does not lock onto 1 WR.

 

2. post-snap read - After the snap, he is able to recognize what the defense is actually doing and to confirm that his pre-snap read was proper. Remains to be seen if he will be able to identify various stunts and tricks while under heavy pressure, but experience will help greatly in this regard.

 

3. hit WR in stride to generate yards after catch This is a huge plus which allows those short passes to become threats to turn into long gainers and 1st downs. No defesne is scared of an offense which is limted to throwing come backs and hitches due to the inaccuracy of its QB. This skill will allow the Bills to incorporate the seam pass to the TE and the slant pass back in to the offense.

Not really. The pre-snap read I gave him credit for, and that cannot be under-estimated, which I don't think I did. He doesn't at all excel in the post-snap read, which to me, is at least 2/3 of the factor in the category of "reading defenses". Trent even said himself on most plays he had already decided where he was going to go with the ball before the snap. He wasn't really reading defenses post-snap at all. Again, I am not denigrating his ability on the pre-snap SHORT PASS play, because it is a talent. But post snap is more important because many more things change and can go wrong. On short quick pass plays, it's not as big an issue. But on five and seven step drops, on plays more than 5 yards downfield, on all patterns that don't go to your first primary look, he didn't look or fare nearly as well. Reading defenses is a big QB category but it's still only a relative small percentage of it compared to wins, scoring points, limiting turnovers, making first downs and drives, hitting all kinds of passes at various lengths, knowing when to hold'em and when to fold 'em. knowing when to gamble and when to go for the jugular, managing the clock, scrambling, avoiding the rush, handing the ball off ( a hugely discounted essential trait), ballhandling, touch on passes, making the big play, shrugging off bad plays, utilizing the strengths of your teammates, etc.

 

Short passes at 5 yards in stride he did that very well, as I said. Hitting receivers in stride more than 5 he didn't do as well. More than 10 he did worse. 15 and more he was average at best. Long balls overall he was poor.

[K-9]

The ONE thing you give credit to Trent for is actually 3 things, which all by themselves is probably good enough without further improvement for a .500 record. This is much more than 20% of what a QB needs to be successful in the NFL.

 

1. pre-snap read He has shown the ability to identify the defense shown pre-snap and to recognize which WR will be the best to exploit the coverage. Does not lock onto 1 WR.

 

2. post-snap read - After the snap, he is able to recognize what the defense is actually doing and to confirm that his pre-snap read was proper. Remains to be seen if he will be able to identify various stunts and tricks while under heavy pressure, but experience will help greatly in this regard.

 

3. hit WR in stride to generate yards after catch This is a huge plus which allows those short passes to become threats to turn into long gainers and 1st downs. No defesne is scared of an offense which is limted to throwing come backs and hitches due to the inaccuracy of its QB. This skill will allow the Bills to incorporate the seam pass to the TE and the slant pass back in to the offense.

 

Edwards could be the Evelyn Wood of pre/post snap reads and it won't make a damn bit of difference if his skill players aren't on the same page. Are you listening Roscoe? When you look at some of the coaches tape from last year it's painfully obvious that Parrish and Royal were the biggest idiots out there. Makes sense since they saw all the single coverage with Evans doubled most of the time. They were equal opportunity dimwits; they screwed up a fair share of JP's plays as well. Edwards is just more adept at finding his last options.

 

disclaimer: the above reference to TE's ability to find his last options is in no way meant to impugn the ability of JP Losman.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[K-9]

Three people that need to show me a lot this year.

 

Jauron

Turk

Trent

 

Show me that each of you is competent at what you're paid to do. None of them have done this yet.

 

Agree 100%.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Dawgg]

Short passes at 5 yards in stride he did that very well, as I said. Hitting receivers in stride more than 5 he didn't do as well. More than 10 he did worse. 15 and more he was average at best. Long balls overall he was poor.

 

The vast majority of his pass attempts were short dink-and-dunk routes.

 

When the Bills did go long, it was when defenses knew it was coming -- 3rd and long situations; at the end of the game with no time outs, etc...

[Kelly the Dog]

The vast majority of his pass attempts were short dink-and-dunk routes.

 

When the Bills did go long, it was when defenses knew it was coming -- 3rd and long situations; at the end of the game with no time outs, etc...

The majority of his passes were short. The "vast "majority were not 5 yards or less, even if you count plays that weren't designed to go five yards or less like his overly quick dump offs (not all of them, of course, were overly quick, sometimes his dumps off were very well timed). But what I was saying was that his immediate drop and fire passes he was very good on. As he went longer they were less right on the money overall. Most passers of course that is true, but he wasnt an accurate passer more than about 7 yards. Passes thrown 11 yards and longer he was 31-68 for 46%. Passes thrown over 21 yards he was 6-23 for 26%. This is just anecdotal but to me he was almost always very accurate when he dropped back and immediately threw. He was A LOT less accurate when he had to look before he threw.

[ieatcrayonz]

Record-wise (which is the main thing that matters), yes Holcomb and Edwards out perform JP.

Trent beat the Jets in both starts last year. Let's see Clean up the city boy do that. Plus, Holcomb has a great record against AFC opponents likes the Chiefs. Stats don't lie.

[ieatcrayonz]

I'll second the observation about Jessica Alba.

It's fat.

[ieatcrayonz]

It's not about his arm, but Vic writes about Trent today.. http://www.nfl.com/news/story;jsessionid=4...mp;confirm=true

Be honest.

 

In that picture does his throwing style resemble Lamar from "Revenge of the Nerds"?

 

I said be honest.

[dave mcbride]

The majority of his passes were short. The "vast "majority were not 5 yards or less, even if you count plays that weren't designed to go five yards or less like his overly quick dump offs (not all of them, of course, were overly quick, sometimes his dumps off were very well timed). But what I was saying was that his immediate drop and fire passes he was very good on. As he went longer they were less right on the money overall. Most passers of course that is true, but he wasnt an accurate passer more than about 7 yards. Passes thrown 11 yards and longer he was 31-68 for 46%. Passes thrown over 21 yards he was 6-23 for 26%. This is just anecdotal but to me he was almost always very accurate when he dropped back and immediately threw. He was A LOT less accurate when he had to look before he threw.

That's good info, and thanks. I will add, though, that the Cleveland and Giants games make a lot of these stats unreliable. Two unbelievably poor weather games accounted for 1/5 of his playing time, and that affects stats in weird ways. I can't remember the Bills ever playing two weather games like that in one season, much less in a 10 game starting period for a QB. When the weather was half decent, he was significantly more accurate than any reasonable person could have expected. One other thing -- his only decent receiver was out for most of the final game against Philly. Yeah, everyone deals with injuries and bad weather, but it really skewed his stats given the relatively small number of starts. Lest we forget, Kelly played badly in some poor-weather games as well. Indeed, that loss to the Pats that blew their playoff chances -- at home -- in 1987 comes to mind. He was flat out awful in that game.

[Sisyphean Bills]

I'll second the observation about Jessica Alba.

http://thetrawbros.files.wordpress.com/200...a-bikini-07.jpg

[Kelly the Dog]

That's good info, and thanks. I will add, though, that the Cleveland and Giants games make a lot of these stats unreliable. Two unbelievably poor weather games accounted for 1/5 of his playing time, and that affects stats in weird ways. I can't remember the Bills ever playing two weather games like that in one season, much less in a 10 game starting period for a QB. When the weather was half decent, he was significantly more accurate than any reasonable person could have expected. One other thing -- his only decent receiver was out for most of the final game against Philly. Yeah, everyone deals with injuries and bad weather, but it really skewed his stats given the relatively small number of starts. Lest we forget, Kelly played badly in some poor-weather games as well. Indeed, that loss to the Pats that blew their playoff chances -- at home -- in 1987 comes to mind. He was flat out awful in that game.

In the Giants game he was 60% on balls 11 yards or longer, 3-5 for 81 yards, with one INT. One of his best games on balls more than 11 yards.

[Sisyphean Bills]

In the Giants game he was 60% on balls 11 yards or longer, 3-5 for 81 yards, with one INT. One of his best games on balls more than 11 yards.

Clearly, it was weather aided.

[dave mcbride]

In the Giants game he was 60% on balls 11 yards or longer, 3-5 for 81 yards, with one INT. One of his best games on balls more than 11 yards.

I know I'm stepping away from your stat-based argument, but he was terrible throwing into the wind in that game. He hit a few deep throws early on with the wind at his back, including a bomb TD to Evans. In fact, I would bet that the three completions were with the wind, and the incompletions against it. The point is, he played badly when the conditions were tough. The Cleveland game was ridiculous.

[dave mcbride]

I know I'm stepping away from your stat-based argument, but he was terrible throwing into the wind in that game. He hit a few deep throws early on with the wind at his back, including a bomb TD to Evans. In fact, I would bet that the three completions were with the wind, and the incompletions against it. The point is, he played badly when the conditions were tough. The Cleveland game was ridiculous.

Plus this, which sheds some light:

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play...aTr01_games.htm

[Adam]

Trent beat the Jets in both starts last year. Let's see Clean up the city boy do that. Plus, Holcomb has a great record against AFC opponents likes the Chiefs. Stats don't lie.

Ok now, I do stats for a living, and I can tell you for sure- stats CAN lie- they can say whatever you want them too. And another thing- there is no level of football where they track wins for quarterbacks like they do for pitchers. And I hate to take anything away from Trent, as he had an outstanding year, considering he was a rookie, but when he left the Jets game with an injury, the score was tied, and we had been abysmal on offense.

 

When JP came in, everything changed- does that define which QB is better? Absolutely not- both QB's have done well in relief for the other. They are opposites and compliment each other well. Both have a real good shot at being quality starters> I may be the only one, but I am glad we have both on the roster

[Flbillsfan#1]

Well you are saying that Trent will have to find the endzone for the Bills to make the playoffs but, if he does it's not because of him? You can't have it both ways. Maybe the offense has to find the endzone more?

Yes the offense has to find the endzone MORE, for the Bills to make the playoffs. What I am saying is it STARTS with the QB, Trent in this case. He has to make the throw, trust his receivers to catch the ball & not constantly check down for little or no gain. If Trent plays well, he will play a PART of the Bills going to the playoffs. I am not trying to have it both ways, Marino, Favre, Elway............ NO QB wins by himself that is what I am saying. If the Bills make the playoffs it will be because the ENTIRE team is better....... including Trent.

[keepthefaith]

Yes the offense has to find the endzone MORE, for the Bills to make the playoffs. What I am saying is it STARTS with the QB, Trent in this case. He has to make the throw, trust his receivers to catch the ball & not constantly check down for little or no gain. If Trent plays well, he will play a PART of the Bills going to the playoffs. I am not trying to have it both ways, Marino, Favre, Elway............ NO QB wins by himself that is what I am saying. If the Bills make the playoffs it will be because the ENTIRE team is better....... including Trent.

 

I say it STARTS with the head coach and I hold him entirely accountable for the dismal offensive production and the stunting of JP's growth as a QB. Trent may be on the same path unfortunately.

[Flbillsfan#1]

Of course he did. He was much better. 5, or even 4 wins as a starter is a couple of years worth for Losman. Instead of tossing infield practice or throwing 30 yards in altitude sideline quick outs that wound up in the seats, Edwards sustained drives, this as a rookie. Do you think that Jauron benched JP for no reason? Please be serious.

 

I did the exact same thing that you are doing now. I watched RJ, saw his talent, and was convinced that he would be a great quarterback. I readily admit this, and I was flat out wrong. It doesn't work in itself. It takes more than raw talent to quarterback an NFL Team. Otherwise, Ryan Leif and Jeff George would be in the Hall of Fame instead of Len Dawson and Joe Montana.

 

Forget about JP. He is second rate. At least Trent has a chance to be a winner. I like his odds myself.

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I notice you IGNORED the rest of that post. GO back & watch the Redskin game. Trent UNDERTHREW & OVERTHREW his receivers ALL GAME just what you are accusing JP of. He did NOT sustain drives long enough to REACH the ENDZONE.