A Question To All TSW Posters

[crazyDingo]

we've seen enough bad football teams in the past 5 years to recognize one instantly.  it was nice of favre (and brad johnson) to come here and play so god-awful with the game on the line, but i don't think anyone was fooled into thinking there is much hope for this crew.

827037[/snapback]

Ding Ding Ding!

 

Congatulations. You are today's winner. Step up and select any prize on the middle shelf.

 

After so many years of losing and tasting the worst possible luck we have become connoisseurs of bad teams. I, for one, feel like I can tell after the first couple series how a game will go.

 

This team is bad. As bad as all the 5-11, 6-10 crap shoved down our throats for most of a decade.

 

I think, like every year, we can look forward to our annual losing record, followed by our annual scapegoat sacrifice ( who will it be this year--Offensive Coordinator? Defensive Coordinator? Special Teams, General Manager, Head Coach, Quarterback, Cornerback?) It really doesnt matter who gets the ax. Nothing changes but the names.

 

In the words of today's idiotic millionaire philosopher athlete, "It is what it is."

No kidding.

 

If your father beat the crap out of you every weekend for seven years, would you feel good he bought you a cake this weekend?

[1billsfan]

I just get the stronger feeling every day that, at this time next year, JP will still be the QB and will not look any better. The OL will have 1 or 2 new scrubs that no other team wants & still suck, and the Pollyannas will still be saying that it's not JP's fault, just give him time.

It's like the movie Groundhog Day.

827080[/snapback]

 

So you're saying that JP will still suck after the team gets 1 or 2 new offensive line scrubs that no other teams want? But it'd be his fault that he can't improve with new scrubs pass blocking in front of him? Please clarify this one because it makes absolutely no sense to me.

[JDG]

You do know it's a bit difficult to play QB with human turnstiles as passblockers. Don't you? But somehow it's all JP fault and his detractors will continue to say "well yes the pass blocking does suck but...". This constant ragging on JP like the offense problems are just his fault have become ridiculous.

828408[/snapback]

 

Yes, but when you are making a strong case to being the worst #1 QB in football - even if your excuse is that you also have the worst offensive line in football (debatable - c.f. Arizona), that excuse still rings kind of hollow.....

[5 Wide]

Buffalo is not playing good football right now. Buffalo has not been playing good football for years now. No one expected the Super Bowl this year. Everyone expected the level of on-field competency to rise. Is the competency on the rise...I'm not saying it is, but i'm not saying it isn't, and that's concerning. Break down the long TD to Evans. Losman recognized Evans was open after he broke 10 yards into the clear and was late with the Ball. NFL qb's cannot wait for a guy to get open to get him the ball. They have to get the ball out before the receiver shakes the DB. The window of being open is so small in this league that your timing and instincts have to be razor sharp. If you see a guy is open, by the time you go through your delivery that gap is closed. Those are the inate abilities that I'm not seeing right now. Losman needs the whole season and deserves the whole season, but it doesn't mean I can't be discouraged that he's not making crucial recognitions on the field.

[Bill from NYC]

You do know it's a bit difficult to play QB with human turnstiles as passblockers. Don't you? But somehow it's all JP fault and his detractors will continue to say "well yes the pass blocking does suck but...". This constant ragging on JP like the offense problems are just his fault have become ridiculous.

828408[/snapback]

 

I think that I have hammered this point home as much as anyone possibly could. The thing is.....the Bills Organization has ruined quarterbacks due to treating blocking as an afterthought.

 

Jim Kelly was forced to retire early rather than play behind the worthless scrubs who were "protecting" him. I am not fully convinced that Collins and RJ would have been as bad as they were if they were provided even a hint of blocking. Who truly knows?

Bledsoe was beaten within an inch of his life as well, and was cast aside because of the Pitt. game (and imo, to think otherwise is literally foolish).

Flutie had some success because he thrived on broken plays. Perhaps they thought JP could do the same, but it is painfully obvious that he cannot. JP is bigger that Flutie and has a better arm. They both can run, but Flutie was a much better player, and seemed twice as smart, probably due to experience.

 

Reading this board, my feeling is that others have come to agree with the above. Mr. Butler and TD cared painfully little about blocking. Marv imo is even more of a disgrace.

One could make a case that TD tried to address blocking, even if he did so in a stupid and egotistic manner (A fat, injured slob over 2 competent LTs at #4). Butler gave huge bucks to Ostroski and Fina, two players who actually sucked. He also took a chance with Panos, but he was half dead upon arrival. He tried, lame attempt notwithstanding.

 

Marv came in with guns blazing for defensive backs. Tell me, has one of our 2 3rd round picks been activated for a game yet? No? The other of course was pissed away in a stupid trade. Marv wanted Whitner SO bad, that he passed up multiple picks (by his own admission on Sirius) rather than trade down. Is he THAT great? I think not, especially for a #8.

 

In summary, JP might very well be shot. I truly hope not, but I am seeing him in an idiotic looking daze on the sidelines. He is making stupid plays and getting sacked. The sad part is that is just NOT his fault.

I care WAY more about the Bills and WNY than I do about JP.

The Bills will not win until they stop drafting little players and circus acts, and start drafting linemen and linebackers with their early picks. Will Marv be coherent enough to do so?

Time will tell.

[Reed83HOF]

I think that I have hammered this point home as much as anyone possibly could. The thing is.....the Bills Organization has ruined quarterbacks due to treating blocking as an afterthought.

 

Jim Kelly was forced to retire early rather than play behind the worthless scrubs who were "protecting" him. I am not fully convinced that Collins and RJ would have been as bad as they were if they were provided even a hint of blocking. Who truly knows?

Bledsoe was beaten within an inch of his life as well, and was cast aside because of the Pitt. game (and imo, to think otherwise is literally foolish).

Flutie had some success because he thrived on broken plays. Perhaps they thought JP could do the same, but it is painfully obvious that he cannot. JP is bigger that Flutie and has a better arm. They both can run, but Flutie was a much better player, and seemed twice as smart, probably due to experience.

 

For the most part I tend to agree with most of your posts...no one can realistically argue that the line has been neglected for a real long time. As I have said in other posts; the OL does have a significant impact on how a QB turns out. I also think that consistent booing from fans does not help either..... JP is trying

 

Reading this board, my feeling is that others have come to agree with the above. Mr. Butler and TD cared painfully little about blocking. Marv imo is even more of a disgrace.

One could make a case that TD tried to address blocking, even if he did so in a stupid and egotistic manner (A fat, injured slob over 2 competent LTs at #4). Butler gave huge bucks to Ostroski and Fina, two players who actually sucked. He also took a chance with Panos, but he was half dead upon arrival. He tried, lame attempt notwithstanding.

 

Marv came in with guns blazing for defensive backs. Tell me, has one of our 2 3rd round picks been activated for a game yet? No? The other of course was pissed away in a stupid trade. Marv wanted Whitner SO bad, that he passed up multiple picks (by his own admission on Sirius) rather than trade down. Is he THAT great? I think not, especially for a #8.

 

If you read Marv's book, its quite apparent that he believes in building a Defense first and focusing on the offense later. Seeing that DJ was a D Coordinator and that's his area of expertise, they definately focused on that...not to mention they want to run a Cover 2...you need saftey's ....Ko Simpson fell into out laps in round 4; there is no way you could not take him..Kyle Williams, steal of the draft? McCargo, the jury is still out conversely so is he; Yobouty - did he really fall that far behind in camp that he is always inactive? Ellison, not a bad LB; Pennington might turn into something good...he has the physical tools

 

I would hope that when deciding on how the handle the 2006 draft they also took into account what to expect in the 2007 draft, as they have scouts assigned to each school to scour a team's roster...It could very well be that the scouting reports rate the defensive players next year lower than the 06 class and also that they anticipate the 07 OL class to be better...

 

In any event...I don't know how you can really criticize the selection of Whitner....there are only two players I would have rather have seen the Bills take @ #8...Vernon Davis...he is gonna be amazing and AJ Hawk...I like LBs...Whitner was a great selection and could end up an All-pro

 

In summary, JP might very well be shot. I truly hope not, but I am seeing him in an idiotic looking daze on the sidelines. He is making stupid plays and getting sacked. The sad part is that is just NOT his fault.

I care WAY more about the Bills and WNY than I do about JP.

The Bills will not win until they stop drafting little players and circus acts, and start drafting linemen and linebackers with their early picks. Will Marv be coherent enough to do so?

Time will tell.

 

I actually think one thing they need to do, is to give him a game or even a half off to watch (which will never happen - once it does if KH or CN actually play good; the fans will not let JP play with out hearing the boobirds)...I think the kid needs a break, he is not comfortable with what the coaches are trying to accomplish...the fans are getting on him...he gets hit like 20 times a game...when the ball is snapped he is thinking, "I wonder where I'm gonna get hit this time..." he staring down the WRs all game long...he has 0 confidence right now and he is getting down on himself...the coaches need to help him...

 

We'll know more about Marv the GM, our scouts and direction of this team during the offsesaon...we'll see what gets addressed or not...THe only hope I have in this franchsie right now is that they take a step to shore up a offensive offence in the offseason...if they aren't big in FA or its another Defense draft....

 

Bad things man...bad things

[apuszczalowski]

I think that I have hammered this point home as much as anyone possibly could. The thing is.....the Bills Organization has ruined quarterbacks due to treating blocking as an afterthought.

 

Jim Kelly was forced to retire early rather than play behind the worthless scrubs who were "protecting" him. I am not fully convinced that Collins and RJ would have been as bad as they were if they were provided even a hint of blocking. Who truly knows?

Bledsoe was beaten within an inch of his life as well, and was cast aside because of the Pitt. game (and imo, to think otherwise is literally foolish).

Flutie had some success because he thrived on broken plays. Perhaps they thought JP could do the same, but it is painfully obvious that he cannot. JP is bigger that Flutie and has a better arm. They both can run, but Flutie was a much better player, and seemed twice as smart, probably due to experience.

 

Reading this board, my feeling is that others have come to agree with the above. Mr. Butler and TD cared painfully little about blocking. Marv imo is even more of a disgrace.

One could make a case that TD tried to address blocking, even if he did so in a stupid and egotistic manner (A fat, injured slob over 2 competent LTs at #4). Butler gave huge bucks to Ostroski and Fina, two players who actually sucked. He also took a chance with Panos, but he was half dead upon arrival. He tried, lame attempt notwithstanding.

 

Marv came in with guns blazing for defensive backs. Tell me, has one of our 2 3rd round picks been activated for a game yet? No? The other of course was pissed away in a stupid trade. Marv wanted Whitner SO bad, that he passed up multiple picks (by his own admission on Sirius) rather than trade down. Is he THAT great? I think not, especially for a #8.

 

In summary, JP might very well be shot. I truly hope not, but I am seeing him in an idiotic looking daze on the sidelines. He is making stupid plays and getting sacked. The sad part is that is just NOT his fault.

I care WAY more about the Bills and WNY than I do about JP.

The Bills will not win until they stop drafting little players and circus acts, and start drafting linemen and linebackers with their early picks. Will Marv be coherent enough to do so?

Time will tell.

828511[/snapback]

I agree with everything you say about drafting and the lines, except for your stanc on Marvs first draft. I don't think it was that bad of a draft because he did get some linemen (McCargo, Pennington) and brought in some very good other defensive players (Whitner is looking to be the 2nd best defensive player from this draft). They had a plan and according to their scouting and research, got the guy they wanted (instead of settling for lesser talent do to needs) The defence they play relies heavily on the DB's soit was a good idea to load up on DB's this offseason. As for the comments of Marv drafting DB's this year too just because he did last year, I highly doubt it. He is a very intellegent person and has already noticed that the lines are a problem. I would almost guarantee you will see some more drafted in this coming draft as their focus will be in that area (with possibly a CB, WR, and maybe a RB in their too) Technically he already has drafted one linemen this year, 5th round pick Hargrove from the Rams. Remember, this is Marvs first draft, and he only has a certain number of picks to work with and ALOT of Holes to fix. Right now the D looks like it is starting to click and his plan is starting to come together there and that was the main focus of this last draft. Build the D and then the offence (build a team like Baltimore)

[Bill from NYC]

I agree with everything you say about drafting and the lines, except for your stanc on Marvs first draft. I don't think it was that bad of a draft because he did get some linemen (McCargo, Pennington) and brought in some very good other defensive players (Whitner is looking to be the 2nd best defensive player from this draft). They had a plan and according to their scouting and research, got the guy they wanted (instead of settling for lesser talent do to needs) The defence they play relies heavily on the DB's soit was a good idea to load up on DB's this offseason. As for the comments of Marv drafting DB's this year too just because he did last year, I highly doubt it. He is a very intellegent person and has already noticed that the lines are a problem. I would almost guarantee you will see some more drafted in this coming draft as their focus will be in that area (with possibly a CB, WR, and maybe a RB in their too) Technically he already has drafted one linemen this year, 5th round pick Hargrove from the Rams. Remember, this is Marvs first draft, and he only has a certain number of picks to work with and ALOT of Holes to fix. Right now the D looks like it is starting to click and his plan is starting to come together there and that was the main focus of this last draft. Build the D and then the offence (build a team like Baltimore)

828599[/snapback]

 

Thank you for a well thought reply.

I readily admit that a steal with Williams and (even or) Pennington could make this a decent draft.

Assuming that one of them is a really good player, there is still WAY more work to do. The days of picking up quality free agents seem to be dwindling because teams can now afford to keep them. The days of signing quality UFA OTs never existed. It only could bring the likes of perpetual suckpumps, such as Gandy.

 

The Bills really have no choice ahead, or so I see it. They will either go all out to fix what is wrong (and the hardest thing to fix) or Marv will lead us down the sewer of incoherence, and chase dbs, which is his history.

 

Again, time will tell.

[jester43]

Ding Ding Ding!

 

Congatulations. You are today's winner. Step up and select any prize on the middle shelf.

828418[/snapback]

 

 

i want that funny little dog with the ears that stick straight out!

[apuszczalowski]

Thank you for a well thought reply.

I readily admit that a steal with Williams and (even or) Pennington could make this a decent draft.

Assuming that one of them is a really good player, there is still WAY more work to do. The days of picking up quality free agents seem to be dwindling because teams can now afford to keep them. The days of signing quality UFA OTs never existed. It only could bring the likes of perpetual suckpumps, such as Gandy.

 

The Bills really have no choice ahead, or so I see it. They will either go all out to fix what is wrong (and the hardest thing to fix) or Marv will lead us down the sewer of incoherence, and chase dbs, which is his history.

 

Again, time will tell.

828624[/snapback]

I'm with you on this all the way, I think this next draft is one you can start to place blame on Marv for because he has now seen what he has in his players, and what he still needs. There was such a huge turnover last season it was starting over from the begining basically. The team is now loaded in the DB department 9right now we can't even find places for Bowen and Youbouty to play. So now Marv has seen his defence nedds help stopping the run and his LB's are getting older so there is a spot to look into. He has now seen his o-line couldn't block a group of seniors mall walking (although the changes made during the Bye may help in eliminating a couple of spots that now won't require drafting (May not need a LT anymore if Peters can handle it, C seems to be pretty good, Gandy might be a better Guard, Maybe Pennington can be a RT in the NFL, so players can be brought in as upgrades or to provide depth on the line), his WR's aren't getting open and they could use a #2 to take some pressure off of Evans, and maybe a good TE (wish Davis would have lasted to 8, I heard Buffalo was interested in him) and a backup RB if talks with Willis of an extension start to break down. Even brining in a late round QB to be the #3 and learn the gamefrom the bench could be an option

 

Some of these holes can be filled by the draft, some by FA and some by having the rookies step up. Next year will definitly be a year where the coaching staff and GM will be watched closely and can be criticised more for the moves they make. This year is nothing more then an extended pre-season to see what we have and what we need

[Reed83HOF]

He has now seen his o-line couldn't block a group of seniors mall walking

 

 

In all Well put!!!!

[Fan in San Diego]

I don't remeber Sal Moriana dismissing every good thing the Bills as only because GB was doing something bad. Heh, give the Bills D some credit in this game. Give the offense some credit at least they scored 17 points again.

[ExiledInIllinois]

You do know it's a bit difficult to play QB with human turnstiles as passblockers. Don't you? But somehow it's all JP fault and his detractors will continue to say "well yes the pass blocking does suck but...". This constant ragging on JP like the offense problems are just his fault have become ridiculous.

828408[/snapback]

 

 

That is funny... I don't know why I thought of this... Did you see the YouTube thing somebody posted in regards to JP's TD throw to Roscoe Parrish during the Detroit game?

 

Check out the other clip showing the 2002 Hawaii Bowl with Tulane v. Hawaii... The long toss to his RB... Check out the human turnstile on the left end of his line...

 

The next play he (JP) did make a good TD run (2nd of that game)...

[PromoTheRobot]

Can anybody remember this much gloom after a Bills victory? My memory is admittedly cloudy and not what it used to be, but I just can't recall this type of reaction after a win for the Buffalo Bills.

The only explanation that comes to mind is that JP was SO bad, that his dismal performance caused concern for his future as an NFL quarterback, and even the short term future of the franchise in terms of reaching the playoffs.

 

What's up? 

826956[/snapback]

 

Bill, it's like this every friggin year...and will be until we win a Super Bowl. Every year is the worst one ever.

 

PTR

[ACor58]

Bill, it's like this every friggin year...and will be until we win a Super Bowl.  Every year is the worst one ever.

 

PTR

829480[/snapback]

 

PTR - It will continue to get like this until this team shows us that they truly are building on something.

 

I felt better after the NE loss than I did after the GB win.

[jester43]

PTR - It will continue to get like this until this team shows us that they truly are building on something.

 

I felt better after the NE loss than I did after the GB win.

829492[/snapback]

i'd rather have an ugly win than a "good" loss, but i also can't be optimistic about the future if the team doesn't play well....which they haven't for a long time.

 

the same effort that beat green bay last sunday will get them BLOWN OUT this week!

[JDG]

Bill:

 

I have to disagree with this idea that the o-line has torpedoed every Bills QB for the past 11 years. Rob Johnson hasn't been seriously considered an NFL starter since leaving Buffalo. Drew Bledsoe had been benched by one team (one that ostensibly has a great offensive line) when we got him, and was subsequently benched by the team he went to after Buffalo. His understudy just went in to Carolina and produced a solid win after going down by 14 points. Can you even *imagine* Drew Bledsoe doing that in a road game? And without getting too much into the JP Losman debate, JP Losman is very arguably the very worst starting NFL QB in the League, and is putting up some abysmal numbers for a 3rd-year QB. You'd really have to argue that our offensive line is one of the all-time worst in NFL history to argue that Losman's performance is predominantly the o-lines fault, and then you'd still have to try and explain what Joey Harrington just did behind Miami's putrid offensive line against Green Bay last week and in Chicago this week. I think it is just as likely that JP Losman's poor play is making our o-line look worse than it is.

 

As far as Marv goes, our defense actually needed even more help than our offensive line. Last year, we had a "pick your cotton candy defense" (the opposite of "pick your poison." When teams decided that they wanted to run on us last year, they were able to run on us all day. When teams decided that they wanted to pass on us last year, they were able to pass on us all day. Our defense needed help.

 

More specifically, there was *not* a lot of 1st round offensive line talent available. Who would we have picked? Winston Justice? He slipped to the second round, and is planted firmly on the bench. I believe that he hasn't even been activated as a reserve on gamedays. The Bills were also absolutely desperate for a defensive tackle after losing out on Pickett, so the trade up for McCargo was a smart move, especially since one could not know that Kyle Williams would pan out as he did. As for Yobouty and Simpson, I am a firm believer that you need to let the draft come to you, and they were great "value" picks, filling positions of need. I can't believe that you can complain so much about a 4th rounder who is starting as a rookie and playing decent. Yobouty, meanwhile, is a disappointment so far, but he was always projected as a project that we'd be grooming to potentially replace Clements, or at least fill the very, very, important 3rd CB slot on the roster.

 

Finally, I have to completely disagree with you when you write:

" In summary, JP might very well be shot. I truly hope not, but I am seeing him in an idiotic looking daze on the sidelines. He is making stupid plays and getting sacked. The sad part is that is just NOT his fault."

 

Sorry, but I just can't sand this "anyone but JP" attitude. I'll say it again, JP Losman is very arguably the very worst starting QB in the League right now, and no matter how you cut it, a very large portion of that almost certainly has to be because right now he just plain isn't good enough.

 

JDG

[IDBillzFan]

...and is putting up some abysmal numbers for a 3rd-year QB.

829534[/snapback]

Again with this 'third-year quarterback' thing. You guys keep saying this like he's been the starter for the past three years. If that was the case, and after all that time he is what he is today, then yes, he needs to be canned. But to make that statement once again shows how much you and a few others are more interested in being right than being knowledgeable about the sport, conditions and position.

[Bill from NYC]

Bill:

 

I have to disagree with this idea that the o-line has torpedoed every Bills QB for the past 11 years.  Rob Johnson hasn't been seriously considered an NFL starter since leaving Buffalo.  Drew Bledsoe had been benched by one team (one that ostensibly has a great offensive line) when we got him, and was subsequently benched by the team he went to after Buffalo.  His understudy just went in to Carolina and produced a solid win after going down by 14 points.  Can you even *imagine* Drew Bledsoe doing that in a road game?    And without getting too much into the JP Losman debate, JP Losman is very arguably the very worst starting NFL QB in the League, and is putting up some abysmal numbers for a 3rd-year QB.    You'd really have to argue that our offensive line is one of the all-time worst in NFL history to argue that Losman's performance is predominantly the o-lines fault, and then you'd still have to try and explain what Joey Harrington just did behind Miami's putrid offensive line against Green Bay last week and in Chicago this week.  I think it is just as likely that JP Losman's poor play is making our o-line look worse than it is.

 

As far as Marv goes, our defense actually needed even more help than our offensive line.  Last year, we had a "pick your cotton candy defense" (the opposite of "pick your poison."    When teams decided that they wanted to run on us last year, they were able to run on us all day.  When teams decided that they wanted to pass on us last year, they were able to pass on us all day.  Our defense needed help.

 

More specifically, there was *not* a lot of 1st round offensive line talent available.  Who would we have picked?  Winston Justice?    He slipped to the second round, and is planted firmly on the bench.  I believe that he hasn't even been activated as a reserve on gamedays.    The Bills were also absolutely desperate for a defensive tackle after losing out on Pickett, so the trade up for McCargo was a smart move, especially since one could not know that Kyle Williams would pan out as he did.    As for Yobouty and Simpson, I am a firm believer that you need to let the draft come to you, and they were great "value" picks, filling positions of need.  I can't believe that you can complain so much about a 4th rounder who is starting as a rookie and playing decent.    Yobouty, meanwhile, is a disappointment so far, but he was always projected as a project that we'd be grooming to potentially replace Clements, or at least fill the very, very, important 3rd CB slot on the roster.

 

Finally, I have to completely disagree with you when you write:

" In summary, JP might very well be shot. I truly hope not, but I am seeing him in an idiotic looking daze on the sidelines. He is making stupid plays and getting sacked. The sad part is that is just NOT his fault."

 

Sorry, but I just can't sand this "anyone but JP" attitude.  I'll say it again, JP Losman is very arguably the very worst starting QB in the League right now, and no matter how you cut it, a very large portion of that almost certainly has to be because right now he just plain isn't good enough.

 

JDG

829534[/snapback]

 

You are telling this to the wrong person. I was against drafting him, and didn't like it when he was handed the starting job for no reason.

That said, your hate for this kid disqualifies you from making a pertinent comment on him, nor the entire situation, or so I see it.

 

JP stands behind a promising LT, a vagabond trash heap LG, a questionable center, a washed up, horrible RG, and a 7th round pick with 1 game under his belt. He has one scrap heap TE who arrived in town with a reputation for dropping passes, another (Everett) who never has produced anything, and probably never will. He has 1 good receiver, and 2 more than nobody else really wanted, along with a good running back. Sounds OK to you?

 

Well, your hero Marv looked at this mess and decided to bring him in some help, which consisted of a very small 5th round OT, and a 7th round OT. He took a safety at #8, traded away a pick, and continued to chase dbs, leaving his inexperienced qb to virtually fend for himself.

 

JP deserves his share of the blame, no doubt. He doesn't seem to be improving, and this is a sad thing for the team and the fans.

Still, what I will not do is lay all of the blame on him. This team was poorly constructed, and Levy hit the ground running.

You seem to be so consumed by hating Losman that it makes you unable to see a clear, ongoing trend.

[JDG]

Again with this 'third-year quarterback' thing. You guys keep saying this like he's been the starter for the past three years.

829571[/snapback]

 

Not at all..... care to take a look at the history of QB's in their third year, whether they started as rookies and 2nd year players or not? Some names like Pennington and Rivers immediately come to mind.....

[JDG]

That said, your hate for this kid disqualifies you from making a pertinent comment on him, nor the entire situation, or so I see it.

829628[/snapback]

 

Right. I guess that its just impossible in the group-think world of TBD to think that Losman is a bad NFL QB without hating him.

 

Nevermind that I personally like Losman's attitude, that I like the way that he handles himself in press Conferences, and I like his occasionally flashes of brilliance in making something happen out of a broken play. No, nevermind all that, because if I just happen to think that there are about 30 QBs in the NFL that are playing better than Losman right now, and if I just happen to think that Losman is in the lowest tier of all recent first-round NFL QB's in their third season (whether they had played before then or not), well then, that must mean that I hate him. Observations of on-the-field performance be damned......

 

Whatever.

 

JDG

[IDBillzFan]

Not at all.....  care to take a look at the history of QB's in their third year, whether they started as rookies and 2nd year players or not?  Some names like Pennington and Rivers immediately come to mind.....

829777[/snapback]

Oh, you're absolutely right. Especially because Pennington and Rivers went through a bunch of coaching, scheme and management changes during their years with their respective teams. I believe Pennington went through five years of having Edwards his coach, then Edwards his coach, then Edwards again followed by Edwards two more times. In fact, Rivers went through the exact same problem since Marty was his first coach before he was replaced with Marty, and then Marty again for three more years. And that's really rough since Rivers is in his THIRD year.

 

When a guy like me can poke holes in your thinking, it's really time to stop thinking out loud.

[Bungee Jumper]

I believe Pennington went through five years of having Edwards his coach, then Edwards his coach, then Edwards again followed by Edwards two more times.

829841[/snapback]

 

Of course, you're talking about Herm Edwards. So that may very well be three coaching changes.

[1billsfan]

Not at all.....  care to take a look at the history of QB's in their third year, whether they started as rookies and 2nd year players or not?  Some names like Pennington and Rivers immediately come to mind.....

829777[/snapback]

 

Care to look at the starting offensive lines of said NYJ and SD teams when these guys took over in their third years? Of course you don't care to do that.

[JDG]

Har, har har..... Everyone is very good at finding excuses for why JP Losman's expectations should be lower than those of every other QB that has been successful in the NFL......

 

Of course, while everyone is coming with excuses, everyone seems a lot less good with coming up with examples of QB's who performed as badly as JP Losman in their third year in the NFL. (crickets chirping)

 

That's the beautiful thing about excuses, you come up with enough of them, and you eventually conclude that in the last 20 years in the NFL, JP Losman is the first third-year QB who was mobile, AND who had a below-average offensive line, AND who had an offensive coordinator change, AND who was handed a starting job in training camp, AND who was benched for performance, AND who played college at a non-BCS school, AND who played high school in California, AND who played in an outdoor stadium, AND.... eventually you get enough excuses so that there aren't *any* comparable QB's to JP Losman at all! Thus, you end up perfectly happy trotting out the worst starting QB in the NFL under center each Sunday, because at least he's the *BESTEST* QB with all of your excuses!

 

Yippee!

 

Is it so wrong for a Bills fan to think that *even despite all the excuses* that maybe, just maybe, JP Losman should be a little better of a starting NFL QB by now than he already is if he was truly likely to turn into "the franchise" for us at some point in the future? I'm not even saying that you have to agree with me... just wondering why it is so wrong to even think that...

 

JDG

Edited November 9, 2006 by JDG

[Ramius]

Har, har har..... Everyone is very good at finding excuses for why JP Losman's expectations should be lower than those of every other QB that has been successful in the NFL......

 

Of course, while everyone is coming with excuses, everyone seems a lot less good with coming up with examples of QB's who performed as badly as JP Losman in their third year in the NFL.    (crickets chirping)

 

That's the beautiful thing about excuses, you come up with enough of them, and you eventually conclude that in the last 20 years in the NFL, JP Losman is the first third-year QB who was mobile, AND who had a below-average offensive line, AND who had an offensive coordinator change, AND who was handed a starting job in training camp, AND who was benched for performance, AND who played college at a non-BCS school,  AND who played high school in California, AND who played in an outdoor stadium, AND....  eventually you get enough excuses so that there aren't *any* comparable QB's to JP Losman at all!  Thus, you end up perfectly happy trotting out the worst starting QB in the NFL under center each Sunday, because at least he's the *BESTEST* QB with all of your excuses!

 

Yippee!

 

Is it so wrong for a Bills fan to think that *even despite all the excuses* that maybe, just maybe, JP Losman should be a little better of a starting NFL QB by now than he already is if he was truly likely to turn into "the franchise" for us at some point in the future?  I'm not even saying that you have to agree with me... just wondering why it is so wrong to even think that...

 

JDG

830171[/snapback]

 

One would think, after 5 years registered, that you;d at least be a halfway decent poster with a rational point to make once in a while. Once again, we are proven wrong.

[JDG]

One would think, after 5 years registered, that you;d at least be a halfway decent poster with a rational point to make once in a while. Once again, we are proven wrong.

830332[/snapback]

 

Gosh, that must mean that you have over two more years to go, then!

[Dibs]

.....and is putting up some abysmal numbers for a 3rd-year QB......

829534[/snapback]

Since the QBR is a figure based on the overall 'numbers' of a QB.....

Brady 83.5 QBR

Hasselbeck 82.8 QBR

Pennington 82.3 QBR

Rex Grossman 81.1 QBR

Delhomme 80.3 QBR

(18th)JPL 80.2 QBR

Favre 78.8 QBR

McNair 73.8 QBR

Johnson 73.1 QBR

Plummer 72.5 QBR

BIG BEN 72.2 QBR

 

and just because.....

Leinart 66.9 QBR

Gradkowski 73.7 QBR

Smith 79.7 QBR

 

His 'numbers' are actually OK.....considering everything, if you added just 3 40 yard TD passes(which should come with better experience/OL/etc) & JPs 'numbers' would be up there inside the top 10. I'm not saying the 'numbers' make him good(they are just numbers) but if you bring up a factor......make sure you are right or prepare to be proven wrong.

[JDG]

His 'numbers' are actually OK.....considering everything, if you added just 3 40 yard TD passes(which should come with better experience/OL/etc) & JPs 'numbers' would be up there inside the top 10.  I'm not saying the 'numbers' make him good(they are just numbers) but if you bring up a factor......make sure you are right or prepare to be proven wrong.

830363[/snapback]

 

How man QB's have passed for 105 or less meaningful yards in three games????

 

All you've proven is that average QB rating really can't tell you the whole story.....

 

JDG

[RkFast]

How man QB's have passed for 105 or less meaningful yards in three games????

 

All you've proven is that average QB rating really can't tell you the whole story.....

 

JDG

830465[/snapback]

 

Come on, JDG...you KNOW around here that if you have a different opinion that marching in lockstep with the company line, youre a "bad fan."

[mead107]

How man QB's have passed for 105 or less meaningful yards in three games????

 

All you've proven is that average QB rating really can't tell you the whole story.....

 

JDG

830465[/snapback]

so what you are saying is that any QB that you think looks like sh-- ( and i say you think ) we should send down the road packing . lets ask you this , if we had drafted DB instead of san diego you would be sending him packing after his 3rd season . not all QBs have good first or 2nd seasons or 3rd you have to give QBs time .

[JDG]

so what you are saying is that any QB that you think looks like sh-- ( and i say you think ) we should  send down the road packing . 

lets ask you this , if we had drafted DB instead of san diego you would be sending him packing after his 3rd season . not all QBs have good first or 2nd seasons or 3rd you have to give QBs time .

830492[/snapback]

 

Except for the fact that Drew Brees had a pretty good first season - or at least a better first season than either of JP Losman's seasons so far.

 

I obviously spent a lot less time observing Drew Brees than I have JP Losman. His second season was certainly pretty bad. But I think that you can have more patience for sitting through a "bad spell" by a QB when that QB has already had some "good spells." I think it is very arguable that Drew Brees would fit into the category, based on what I remember of his first season, looking at what he did that year....

 

The other problem is that while Drew Brees had a bad second season in his third year, plenty other QB's also struggled early - Cade McNown, Akili Smith, Heath Shuler, David Klingler, etc. Some guys, like Dan McGwire and Tommy Maddox, were drafted in the first round and never even got as far as JP Losman has in terms of starting experience. Moreover, I wouldn't be surprised if JP Losman's track record in his first 16 games isn't perhaps even slightly worse than those of some of the above QB's. It's like the old line "You know they called Jesus crazy" and "Yes, but they also called about a billion other guys who really were crazy, 'crazy' too..."

 

You say that you "have to QB's time", but I personally think that there are scant few examples of QB's who have had as bad years in their 2nd and 3rd seasons, and who went on to become productive NFL starters. That's not necessarily to aruge that no QB has ever had a bad 2nd and 3rd year in the League and gone on to be successful, but just that JP Losman is at a level right now that I would describe as being "worse than bad." In my mind the Qb's that "you have to give time" to are those that show a minimum level of basic competency, and the one's that fail that level of basic competency you cut your losses on and move on.

 

Thus, All I'm saying is that we should call a spade a spade, and that JP Losman is not at the level right now that we need him to be at this stage of his development, and if he can't at least get to that minimum level of development in the next couple weeks, we aught to start thinking about our options...

 

JDG

[mead107]

Except for the fact that Drew Brees had a pretty good first season - or at least a better first season than either of JP Losman's seasons so far.   

 

I obviously spent a lot less time observing Drew Brees than I have JP Losman.  His second season was certainly pretty bad.  But I think that you can have more patience for sitting through a "bad spell" by a QB when that QB has already had some "good spells."    I think it is very arguable that Drew Brees would fit into the category, based on what I remember of his first season, looking at what he did that year.... 

 

The other problem is that while Drew Brees had a bad second season in his third year, plenty other QB's also struggled early - Cade McNown, Akili Smith, Heath Shuler, David Klingler, etc.  Some guys, like Dan McGwire and Tommy Maddox, were drafted in the first round and never even got as far as JP Losman has in terms of starting experience.    Moreover, I wouldn't be surprised if JP Losman's track record in his first 16 games isn't perhaps even slightly worse than those of some of the above QB's.  It's like the old line "You know they called Jesus crazy" and "Yes, but they also called about a billion other guys who really were crazy, 'crazy' too..."   

 

You say that you "have to QB's time", but I personally think that there are scant few examples of QB's who have had as bad years in their 2nd and 3rd seasons, and who went on to become productive NFL starters.  That's not necessarily to aruge that no QB has ever had a bad 2nd and 3rd year in the League and gone on to be successful, but just that JP Losman is at a level right now that I would describe as being "worse than bad."  In my mind the Qb's that "you have to give time" to are those that show a minimum level of basic competency, and the one's that fail that level of basic competency you cut your losses on and move on. 

 

Thus, All I'm saying is that we should call a spade a spade, and that JP Losman is not at the level right now that we need him to be at this stage of his development, and if he can't at least get to that minimum level of development in the next couple weeks, we aught to start thinking about our options...

 

JDG

830584[/snapback]

why do you put JDG on the bottom of every post ??? just asking

[Bungee Jumper]

why do you put JDG on the bottom of every post ??? just asking

830594[/snapback]

 

The same reason you put drool over every post. He's got to be himself.

[1billsfan]

Har, har har..... Everyone is very good at finding excuses for why JP Losman's expectations should be lower than those of every other QB that has been successful in the NFL......

 

Of course, while everyone is coming with excuses, everyone seems a lot less good with coming up with examples of QB's who performed as badly as JP Losman in their third year in the NFL.    (crickets chirping)

830171[/snapback]

 

Maybe if you read some posts supporting JP you'd see that you're in fact wrong. But seeing how you don't, here you go with some examples of QB's third year numbers...

 

NAME / PCT / TD / INT

Phil Simms 50.6 / 11 / 9

Drew Brees 57.6 / 11 / 15

Terry Bradshaw 47.7 / 12 / 12

Dan Fouts 54.4 / 2 / 10

Warren Moon 52.5 / 13 / 26

Steve McNair 52.0 / 14 / 13

Matt Hasselback 54.8 / 7 / 8

 

JP Losman 61.3 / 14 / 12

(approx. by doubling numbers of first eight games)

 

Sorry to let some silly facts get in the way of your misguided theory. But you have no clue what kind of QB Losman will turn out to be at this point. You can pretend all you want, but that's all you'd be doing.

[Dibs]

How man QB's have passed for 105 or less meaningful yards in three games????

 

All you've proven is that average QB rating really can't tell you the whole story.....

 

JDG

830465[/snapback]

Which is why I even stated...."I'm not saying the 'numbers' make him good(they are just numbers)".

 

What I was pointing out to you though was the QBR is a combination of all his numbers(except sacks). He is 18th in QBR.....20th in YPA.....14th in completion percentage. Your statement of him having "abysmal numbers" is not warranted. Sure he has had some bad games(in regards to the numbers), but so too has most QBs in the league. Overall, his numbers are comparable to a majority of his peers.

I do not think he is playing as well as a majority of his peers.....but his numbers (for the most of it) do not reflect this. YPA is a better indicator of a QB than YPG.

 

BTW, it is 3 games of 115 & under not 105.

Vick....6 games of 163 & under

Plummer 3 games of 138 & under

McNair 4 games of 165 & under

Pennington 2 games of 108 & under

Smith 3 of 135 & under(4 under 165)

Carr 2 of 128 & under

Frye 3 of 149 & under

[Yoho]

Maybe if you read some posts supporting JP you'd see that you're in fact wrong. But seeing how you don't, here you go with some examples of QB's third year numbers...

 

NAME          /          PCT    /  TD    / INT

Phil Simms          50.6    /  11  /    9

Drew Brees          57.6    /  11  /  15

Terry Bradshaw    47.7  /    12    /  12

Dan Fouts            54.4    /    2  /  10

Warren Moon        52.5  /  13  /  26

Steve McNair        52.0  /    14  /  13

Matt Hasselback    54.8  /    7    /    8

 

JP Losman              61.3  /  14  /  12

(approx. by doubling numbers of first eight games)

 

Sorry to let some silly facts get in the way of your misguided theory. But you have no clue what kind of QB Losman will turn out to be at this point. You can pretend all you want, but that's all you'd be doing.

830657[/snapback]

 

Wow, this is the precise kind of factual post that requires a response from those who "know" that J.P. is one of the worst. But it is also the type of post that will be ignored by those making the opposite case.

 

Please, if you believe that JP is a bust, refute this email and prove to me why he is different than these guys.

[Dibs]

Maybe if you read some posts supporting JP you'd see that you're in fact wrong. But seeing how you don't, here you go with some examples of QB's third year numbers...

 

NAME          /          PCT    /  TD    / INT

Phil Simms          50.6    /  11  /    9

Drew Brees          57.6    /  11  /  15

Terry Bradshaw    47.7  /    12    /  12

Dan Fouts            54.4    /    2  /  10

Warren Moon        52.5  /  13  /  26

Steve McNair        52.0  /    14  /  13

Matt Hasselback    54.8  /    7    /    8

 

JP Losman              61.3  /  14  /  12

(approx. by doubling numbers of first eight games)

 

Sorry to let some silly facts get in the way of your misguided theory. But you have no clue what kind of QB Losman will turn out to be at this point. You can pretend all you want, but that's all you'd be doing.

830657[/snapback]

Well said.....here is some more....

 

NAME / PCT / TD / INT

Jim Kelly 59.5 / 15 / 17

Ben Roethilberger 64.1 / 14 / 28(approx. by doubling numbers of first eight games)

Bart Starr 49.7 / 3 / 12

Y.A.Title 51.0 / 11 / 12

Bob Griese 48.0 / 10 / 16

Bobby Layne 45.2 / 16 / 18

[JDG]

quote]

What I was pointing out to you though was the QBR is a combination of all his numbers(except sacks). He is 18th in QBR.....20th in YPA.....14th in completion percentage.

 

Yes, QB Rating is a combination of a variety of numbers. Yet, it is a completely arbitrary combination of these numbers, and I'm not at all convinced that it is a particularly good one. Among other criticisms, the QB Rating rewards passing touchdowns, but if you pass the ball to the one and then run it in, you get no credit.

 

Your statement of him having "abysmal numbers" is not warranted. 

 

If we're going to get into a round-about of whether or not JP Losman's numbers this year are "abysmal", I'd just as soon drop the subject, as something that I just said a little too heatedly in the context of a long discussion. I do think that Losman's numbers from Sunday are particularly abysmal considering the opponent (one of the very worst passing defenses in the League) and the situation (coming off a bye after several bad performances, and playing at home.)

 

Sure he has had some bad games(in regards to the numbers), but so too has most QBs in the league.  Overall, his numbers are comparable to a majority of his peers.

 

This is where I completely disagree - and it is a classic tactic of Losman's defenders, to simply define a single category of "bad", and not look deeper at the situation.

 

I do not think he is playing as well as a majority of his peers.....but his numbers (for the most of it) do not reflect this.  YPA is a better indicator of a QB than YPG.

 

BTW, it is 3 games of 115 & under not 105.

 

Its three games of *meaningful* yards under 105. JP Losman managed to get to 115 against to Chicago only thanks to 26 yards on a completely garbage-time drive against the backups at the end of the 4th quarter. Even with the standard of 115 yards, those numbers are *still* below those of many of the examples you provided.

 

I don't think that you can sum up a QB in any one number. I think you need to look at a portfolio. Sure, YPA is better than YPG in some respects - on the other hand, YPG also takes into account failure to complete passes on 3rd downs, and thus generate additional passing attempts by sustaining drives. QB rating, as I mentioned above, is a completely arbitrary combination of several factors. Again, I prefer to look at a portfolio of performance in judging a QB, and not just try and turn a player into a single number....

 

Vick....6 games of 163 & under

Plummer 3 games of 138 & under

McNair 4 games of 165 to 143 yards

Pennington 2 games of 108 & under

Smith 3 of 135 & under

Carr 1 full game of 128

Frye 3 of 149 to 132 yards

831228[/snapback]

 

In my mind, Vick is a complete asterisk.... if you look at the offense Atlanta is running, Vick is playing a position that is essentially unique within the NFL. If Losman is going to run for 70 yards a game, I'll hold him to a different standard too.

 

Additionally, if we are just going to talk numbers, I think that you have adequately demonstrated that 130 or 150 yards for a QB in a game is eminently reasonable. Less than 100 yards is not reasonable. In 17 career starts, Losman has been under 115 yards passing on six occasions. That is at a level worse than any of the QB's that you mentioned.

 

Just on a numbers basis, the only real cases you have here, in my mind, are Alex Smith and Pennington. And with Pennington, I think that the whole NFL is seeing the difference between a really good coach like Herman Edwards, and a not so good coach. Until this year, Pennington had been one of the most accurate and effective QB's in the League, and the new regime there in New York is trying to get him to play a throw-it-around style of offense for which he is unsuited. I'm sure that not having Curtis Martin hurts a little bit too, but I'm also suspicious of what that coaching staff is doing.... And in any event, Chad Pennington has *done* it in the NFL (cf. 41-0 vs. Peyton Manning in the playoffs.)

 

A large part of passing yards is admittedly determined by how you want to play. There's definitely cases where say you have a good defense and running game, or when your opponent is offensive incompetent (i.e. the Oakland Raiders), where teams will take the attitude that so long as they don't throw interceptions, they don't think they can lose, and so play very conservatively.

 

I don't think that we have that here in Buffalo. The one exception is that we did come out to play that way in Miami - but since then, for whatever reason, the coaches have gotten away from that. Since then, they have taken the handcuffs off the offense, gotten away from the WR swing passes and screens, and JP Losman has not been up to the challenge.

 

Plain and simple, it doesn't take numbers to see that JP Losman was abysmal against Green Bay last week. We simply were not able to generate anything in the way of offense, and were it not for a Brett Favre implosion on offense to the tune of four turnovers, and a ridiculous defensive breakdown in a 2nd and 20 situation, the Bills in all likelihood would have lost that game. JP Losman wasn't capable of winning that game against a competent team on Sunday, even if he at least didn't blow it.

 

But when you combine JP Losman's performance against Green Bay with his non-existant showing against Chicago, his ineffectual showings against New England and the NY Jets at home, and I think you get plenty of reason to be concerned..... and plenty of reason to think that if Losman doesn't get better than this by the end of the season, that we made to take a long hard look at our options after the season.

 

JDG

[Dibs]

quote]

Yes, QB Rating is a combination of a variety of numbers......JDG

831378[/snapback]

His numbers were not good against GB last week....totally agree(apart from his turnover numbers). I was simply responding to your statement that his numbers are abysmal for a 3rd year player. If you mean in an individual game then I say "hang on, the best Qbs have abysmal individual games"....you meant for the season & I believe...all things considered his actual numbers this season(overall) are not abysmal....they are in fact in the 'average' bracket. His play leaves a lot to be desired but I'm afraid you cannot use the stats to back the point.