Coaches are heavily implying that Coleman isn’t trying on the field

[FireChans]

12 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

Starting with 2018, and only counting players who are still active:

Tremaine Edmunds LB of course.  Even OP acknowledges him.

Harrison Phillips DT.  Started 17 games for 3 years and all 10 this year for Vikes, 59-74% of the snaps.  Vikes #5 D last year, 14-3 and in 2022 13-4.  Solid.

Siran Neal CB.  Played 17 games for MIA and 11 so far for SF as a STer.  SF currently 7-4

Wyatt Teller G.  Starting for Cleveland at G since 2019.  Has been to 3 probowls and 2nd team AP twice.  Might remotely be any good.

Ray Ray McCloud WR.  Has played on 5 different teams since leaving the Bills, including 12-4 Steelers, Conf Champ and SB with the 49ers. Largely PR/KR Led the league in PR in 2021.  Also saw significant WR snaps with PIT in 2021 and ATL in 2024.  Ya kind of think he might remotely be good if he lead the league and played in 2 conf. champs and a superbowl.

2019
Devin Singletary RB.  Solid year for HOU in 2023 with more yards than he had in B'lo.  Currently playing for the Giants and his YPC has tanked.  

Cody Ford G.  Started every game at G for Cincy in 2023, all but 1 in 2024, all so far this season.  He ain't an all pro, but they haven't found better.

2020
Isaiah Hodgins WR.  For a player who was not "Remotely any good" there was a lot of heartburn here when we lost him to the Giants on waivers.  After an OK year in 2023, he lost playing time in 2024 and gained it back this year.  Played a lot and had a decent game last Sunday.  We'll see how he does now Daboll's gone

Dane Jackson.  Back with the Bills now.  Played ~40% of the snaps for CAR last year in 9 games and 3 starts so they might have thought he was remotely any good 

2021
Matt Araiza. P.  Punting and holding for the Chiefs.  Lots of heart burnings here about that.

Nick Broeker  G, Playing for Houston, mostly ST.  All 9 games this season

Alex Austin CB.  Has been in New England last 3 seasons, playing ST and CB.  Has started 5 games at CB in the last 2 years.

That's 11 players besides Edmunds who were drafted by the Bills, went elsewhere, and saw significant playing time.  Several STers, but when a guy is leading the league as an STer he might be above "remotely any good".  6 have been starting.

I know, @BuffaloBillyG, there I go with the facts again

 

Listing ST guys bouncing around the league without a shred of irony is so so so good.

 

a punter lmao

[Beck Water]

On 11/10/2025 at 4:02 PM, Bruffalo said:

It’s wild to me if that’s the case.

 

The guy has every opportunity right now to be a superstar. An MVP qb, no real WR competition or pressure around him, and the entire city looking for him to step up.

 

What more could you ask for to get some effort?

 

To transplant a 25 or 26 yr old brain into his 22 1/2 yr old body.  There just may be a reason why Sam Darnold started to really ball at age 26.

Honestly, think of the 21-23 yr old young men you know. Some of them have it together.  They pay attention, listen to what they're told, take feedback well, stay "humble and hungry".
Others make you wonder how the human race survived because they seem to have NO sense, including no sense of perspective or self-preservation.
 

Then you throw money into the mix.  A young guy from a financially limited background, now he's got a multi-million dollar signing bonus in the bank and is pocketing a the average starting salary for a 2025 college graduate, $70k - EVERY WEEK.  He walks into any bar with a hundred thou of bling around his neck.  Heads turn. Ladies want to "talk" to him.  This is the life!!! 

It may not be an accident that Coleman's crappiest games were in Atlanta and in Miami, both cities with good night life (caveat: I have NO info that Coleman is out there clubbing.  It's just a guess.)

 

That's basically why the "hit rate" in the first couple rounds of the draft is so low.   Occasionally players can't adapt to the league physically, but more often it's a mental and emotional thing.  It's hard to focus on what the coaches are telling you and be self-critical yet confident,  when the message given by the money you suddenly have is "I'm in the Big Time, I've Arrived!".  

Teams try to do their homework, get a sense of who the player is about, talk to their coaches and trainers and teammates.  But that doesn't always work.  And sometimes people just change when they get the Do-Re-Mi.


 

[Thurman#1]

On 11/12/2025 at 7:39 PM, SectionC3 said:

Where does it say "every" in the quote you provided?  It doesn't.  It also doesn't say "no."  That's the point.  If it wasn't an issue, then the answer would have been "no."

 

 

Yeah, um, no. No, it wouldn't. His answer works perfectly fine, and to assume it shows an issue says more about you and your feelings on this than it does about McDermott. 

 

Where does it say, "every," you ask? It says, "like any player." That's where "every" comes from though he used a synonym. "He has times, just like any player."

 

Clearly he's having problems making it to meetings. Which is unbelievable immaturity. I'm a lot less likely to support Keon now, but what McDermott said simply did not imply that he had bigger problems on the field than most.

 

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Thurman#1

[BuffaloBillyG]

40 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

Starting with 2018, and only counting players who are still active:

Tremaine Edmunds LB of course.  Even OP acknowledges him.

Harrison Phillips DT.  Started 17 games for 3 years and all 10 this year for Vikes, 59-74% of the snaps.  Vikes #5 D last year, 14-3 and in 2022 13-4.  Solid.

Siran Neal CB.  Played 17 games for MIA and 11 so far for SF as a STer.  SF currently 7-4

Wyatt Teller G.  Starting for Cleveland at G since 2019.  Has been to 3 probowls and 2nd team AP twice.  Might remotely be any good.

Ray Ray McCloud WR.  Has played on 5 different teams since leaving the Bills, including 12-4 Steelers, Conf Champ and SB with the 49ers. Largely PR/KR Led the league in PR in 2021.  Also saw significant WR snaps with PIT in 2021 and ATL in 2024.  Ya kind of think he might remotely be good if he lead the league and played in 2 conf. champs and a superbowl.

2019
Devin Singletary RB.  Solid year for HOU in 2023 with more yards than he had in B'lo.  Currently playing for the Giants and his YPC has tanked.  

Cody Ford G.  Started every game at G for Cincy in 2023, all but 1 in 2024, all so far this season.  He ain't an all pro, but they haven't found better.

2020
Isaiah Hodgins WR.  For a player who was not "Remotely any good" there was a lot of heartburn here when we lost him to the Giants on waivers.  After an OK year in 2023, he lost playing time in 2024 and gained it back this year.  Played a lot and had a decent game last Sunday.  We'll see how he does now Daboll's gone

Dane Jackson.  Back with the Bills now.  Played ~40% of the snaps for CAR last year in 9 games and 3 starts so they might have thought he was remotely any good 

2021
Matt Araiza. P.  Punting and holding for the Chiefs.  Lots of heart burnings here about that.

Nick Broeker  G, Playing for Houston, mostly ST.  All 9 games this season

Alex Austin CB.  Has been in New England last 3 seasons, playing ST and CB.  Has started 5 games at CB in the last 2 years.

That's 11 players besides Edmunds who were drafted by the Bills, went elsewhere, and saw significant playing time.  Several STers, but when a guy is leading the league as an STer he might be above "remotely any good".  6 have been starting.

I know, @BuffaloBillyG, there I go with the facts again

 

Actually, my friend that was an excellent bit of information. Haven't even thought about Siran Neal in years. 

 

You're on point. Once upon a time, when the Bills released someone they were out of the league not long after. I remember so many picks that we had that just flamed out of the league. Some would get second chances elsewhere (Ko Simpson springs to mind) but they wouldn't stick.

[Thurman#1]

43 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Listing ST guys bouncing around the league without a shred of irony is so so so good.

 

a punter lmao

 

 

Punters are players. Possible that's inconvenient for your argument, but it has the advantage that it's true. 

 

And guys who are on different teams ... are on teams because they're better than the millions who would like to be on teams but aren't good enough.

 

Plenty of guys leave one team for another for many different reasons that don't necessarily include quality. Look at Gabe Davis. He got a contract we didn't want to match but he's still plenty good enough to be in the league. 

 

You're talking about a 5th and two 6ths. Them being still in the league 6 or 7 years down the road absolutely does show something, it's not even a question.

 

I get it. When you want to throw guys out who don't fit your opinion, if you're the type that does that, any reason will do. It's something to say. Doesn't make it a good argument, but it's at least something to throw against the wall and see if it sticks.

 

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Thurman#1

[Beck Water]

29 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

He always has drafted lots of NFL caliber players 

 

We used to be the last stop for NFL players... 

 

Our cut draft picks or not re signed are usually picked up ... He has lots of guys on Rosters

 

What he hasn't really drafted is much pro bowl type players ... Lots of good , not lots of great

 

cole bishop is saying hello now.. I really liked the draft pick and he looks like the light is on

 

Valid points, although I would say that Tre White, Milano, and Edmunds were all pro-bowl type players in their prime, and of course Poyer and Hyde.

I think it was Emmanuel Acho on some show talked about "Freakazoids".  He talked about how, in order to win, every team has to have at least 3-4 "freakazoids", players who can single-handedly change the course of the game.  

 

On offense, we have Allen, we have Cook.  We had Diggs, but no one who has stepped up and filled that role.

On defense, it's been my belief that McDermott has always felt he doesn't need "freakazoids" to field a top defense.  Instead he wants guys who will "buy in" and Do Their 1/11th.  And when everyone knows their role and executes, he's almost right.  But since the 2021 playoffs, I think Beane has believed that he definitely needs some freakazoids on the DL to put on a good pass rush.

 

Beane tried to draft a guy he could develop into a competent pass rusher in Epenesa and Rousseau and Basham, and 2 out of 3 being good NFL players isn't a bad hit rate, but they're not Game Changers.  Then he swung for the fences and tried to buy a Freakazoid in Von Miller and when that busted, the amount of dead money tied up in him has really tied Beane's hands.

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

Valid points, although I would say that Tre White, Milano, and Edmunds were all pro-bowl type players in their prime, and of course Poyer and Hyde.

I think it was Emmanuel Acho on some show talked about "Freakazoids".  He talked about how, in order to win, every team has to have at least 3-4 "freakazoids", players who can single-handedly change the course of the game.  

 

On offense, we have Allen, we have Cook.  We had Diggs, but no one who has stepped up and filled that role.

On defense, it's been my belief that McDermott has always felt he doesn't need "freakazoids" to field a top defense.  Instead he wants guys who will "buy in" and Do Their 1/11th.  And when everyone knows their role and executes, he's almost right.  But since the 2021 playoffs, I think Beane has believed that he definitely needs some freakazoids on the DL to put on a good pass rush.

 

Beane tried to draft a guy he could develop into a competent pass rusher in Epenesa and Rousseau and Basham, and 2 out of 3 being good NFL players isn't a bad hit rate, but they're not Game Changers.  Then he swung for the fences and tried to buy a Freakazoid in Von Miller and when that busted, the amount of dead money tied up in him has really tied Beane's hands.

Beane didn't draft tre or sign poyer and Hyde.. aren't you the one who told me yesterday he didn't sign poyer

 

But I agree that he has hit on players and he does draft some solid guys 

 

We do have good football players I've always been the one here to push back that it's just Allen and a bunch of bums 

 

We don't have a lot of top five or top 10 guys at their positions tho.. it's a bunch of solid football players who have bought in 

 

Clearly beane does want that freakazoid on the D line because we have put a lot into it.. including draft picks 

 

It stinks that some of our best players.. Ed and Kincaid are always dinged up

 

Ed does have blue chip talent.. and so does Dalton.. but my father always told me the best ability is availability 

 

[Beck Water]

On 11/11/2025 at 12:11 PM, MasterStrategist said:

Josh could throw from his a** and complete a 5 yard pass.

 

Actually, he couldn't.

 

One of the noteworthy things about Allen during the pre-draft process and his first 2 years in the league was that he struggled worst to complete the passes behind the LOS or in the 0-5 yd range.

 

When he changed up his mechanics in the 2020 off season he became able to hit those

When he's been injured and has back-slid towards old mechanics he can't

 

So if you're correct that his mechanics are off (and that would seem to be a matter of debate) then he would not, in fact, be able to throw from his a** and complete a 5 yd pass.

[FireChans]

26 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Punters are players. Possible that's inconvenient for your argument, but it has the advantage that it's true. 

 

And guys who are on different teams ... are on teams because they're better than the millions who would like to be on teams but aren't good enough.

 

Plenty of guys leave one team for another for many different reasons that don't necessarily include quality. Look at Gabe Davis. He got a contract we didn't want to match but he's still plenty good enough to be in the league. 

 

You're talking about a 5th and two 6ths. Them being still in the league 6 or 7 years down the road absolutely does show something, it's not even a question.

 

I get it. When you want to throw guys out who don't fit your opinion, if you're the type that does that, any reason will do. It's something to say. Doesn't make it a good argument, but it's at least something to throw against the wall and see if it sticks.

 

 

When I talk about the best GMs in football, I always start out with how many career STers and punters they have drafted over their careers.

 

I don’t know why we fired Doug Whaley, he drafted Marcus Easley!!!! 

[Buffalo716]

15 minutes ago, FireChans said:

When I talk about the best GMs in football, I always start out with how many career STers and punters they have drafted over their careers.

 

I don’t know why we fired Doug Whaley, he drafted Marcus Easley!!!! 

Beck gave you over 10 examples tho

 

But you responded with sarcasm 

 

 

 

 

[Sierra Foothills]

2 hours ago, Beck Water said:

People forget that when it comes to football, NFL players are a lot smarter than many give them credit for.  They don't have to be explicitly told they are running a clearing route, they understand the play design, they know what the reads are given what the defense shows.  They know when it's a run play. They know when they aren't getting the ball.   Remember Bishop (I think) saying he could read Worthy's body language and tell when it was gonna be a run play? But it doesn't help the offense disguise anything if all the players on the field don't at least give a plausible FAKE of effort.

 

Back to the allegations that Coleman doesn't give full effort on some plays... as I've said before, if you watch the All-22 even occasionally you'll see plenty of WRs NOT running full speed and you'll see lots of pass rushers quickly throttle down when they calculate that the pursuit probably isn't worth it... kind of like a lion will know early on whether it's worth continuing to chase the zebra.

 

Stevie Johnson was asked about Coleman's effort last week and said "And people talking about effort, they show one play that I saw on effort. And I mean, you got to really know the game is a must outside release, you know, backside of the play, not involved. Everybody knows that. And, you know, they eyed that one play on Keon. Now, I'm not here to defend like that, but I'm here to be equal with everybody. You know what I'm saying? And, you know, just calling that part out, you know, that wasn't his play to be running hard on. You know, you got to bypass that."

 

Now I understand McDermott didn't exactly come to the defense of Coleman but remember this was in the context of McDermott feeling tons of heat after the loss to Miami and he may have found it convenient to be able to throw some different meat to the media corps for them to chew on.

 

[SectionC3]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, um, no. No, it wouldn't. His answer works perfectly fine, and to assume it shows an issue says more about you and your feelings on this than it does about McDermott. 

 

Where does it say, "every," you ask? It says, "like any player." That's where "every" comes from though he used a synonym. "He has times, just like any player."

 

Clearly he's having problems making it to meetings. Which is unbelievable immaturity. I'm a lot less likely to support Keon now, but what McDermott said simply did not imply that he had bigger problems on the field than most.

 

 

Any doesn’t mean every, no matter how hard you try to make it so.  
 

Coleman is hardly the first player, let alone the first wideout, to be late to or to miss a meeting.  Diggs, for example,  was chronically late,  so much so he had a dedicated parking spot next to the door.  Coleman’s on-field performance has been so abysmal that he didn’t get the Diggs treatment and was “outed” by the Bills for his immaturity.  So I’d say he has some pretty big problems.  
 

I’ll add another nugget.  I overhead, at the stadium on Sunday, a prominent member of the organization absolutely destroying Coleman.  I wasn’t part of the conversation, but I heard it well, and I was taken aback by the blunt and critical tone.  Lots of frustration with him.  

[Richard Noggin]

12 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

Back to the allegations that Coleman doesn't give full effort on some plays... as I've said before, if you watch the All-22 even occasionally you'll see plenty of WRs NOT running full speed and you'll see lots of pass rushers quickly throttle down when they calculate that the pursuit probably isn't worth it... kind of like a lion will know early on whether it's worth continuing to chase the zebra.

 

Stevie Johnson was asked about Coleman's effort last week and said "And people talking about effort, they show one play that I saw on effort. And I mean, you got to really know the game is a must outside release, you know, backside of the play, not involved. Everybody knows that. And, you know, they eyed that one play on Keon. Now, I'm not here to defend like that, but I'm here to be equal with everybody. You know what I'm saying? And, you know, just calling that part out, you know, that wasn't his play to be running hard on. You know, you got to bypass that."

 

Now I understand McDermott didn't exactly come to the defense of Coleman but remember this was in the context of McDermott feeling tons of heat after the loss to Miami and he may have found it convenient to be able to throw some different meat to the media corps for them to chew on.

 

 

Totally fair argument from Stevie within the scope of that primary play example being broadly leveraged in the media. The really unfortunate part probably ended up being Coleman's admitted tardiness after knowing full well the spotlight is on him (externally for sure, but more importantly, internally). He just kept digging. And handed the hounds another bone to chew on. 

[Beck Water]

3 hours ago, FireChans said:

Listing ST guys bouncing around the league without a shred of irony is so so so good.

 

a punter lmao

 

I know this is hard, but try to stay with me:

1) OP poster says "There hasn't been one player that they drafted that is no longer on this team that is remotely any good,  outside of Edmunds,"
(exact quote)
2) This contention could be disproved by listing one player other than Edmunds who is remotely any good

3) I listed 11 players who should be considered at least "any good" because they have continued to play in the NFL for years after the Bills released or traded them, despite the yearly influx of cheaper rookies.  Some have started for years.  

4) Therefore OP poster's contention is disproved.  QED.

 

It must be highly disconcerting to lose your ass by laughing.  Perhaps you should hold onto it with both hands; only think how inconvenient to lose it!  Without an ass, from what orifice would your poo emerge?  It could be detrimental to your social life or enjoyment of meals.

 

Punters are players.  Every team has one because they fill a critical role.  ST can turn a game and we all howl when it does.  However,

if you wish to exclude the punter and the primarily ST guys (even the one who led the league in punt return yardage)  it still leaves sufficient players to disprove OP poster's contention (since one would suffice)

We do understand that players who "bounce around the league" (get picked up by different teams) are in fact "any good", because otherwise the teams who sign them would take younger and cheaper guys hot out of college and undrafted.  We understand that, right?

 

I'd say I eagerly await the contortions you'll undergo to avoid acknowledging a point, but Truth: I'd be lying.

Edited 8 hours ago by Beck Water

[FireChans]

6 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I know this is hard, but try to stay with me:

1) OP poster says "There hasn't been one player that they drafted that is no longer on this team that is remotely any good,  outside of Edmunds,"
(exact quote)
2) This contention could be disproved by listing one player other than Edmunds who is remotely any good

3) I listed 11 players who should be considered at least "any good" because they have continued to play in the NFL for years after the Bills released or traded them, despite the yearly influx of cheaper rookies.  Some have started for years.  

4) Therefore OP poster's contention is disproved.  QED.

 

It must be highly disconcerting to lose your ass by laughing.  Perhaps you should hold onto it with both hands; only think how inconvenient to lose it!  Without an ass, from what orifice would your poo emerge?  It could be detrimental to your social life or enjoyment of meals.

 

Punters are players.  Every team has one because they fill a critical role.  ST can turn a game and we all howl when it does.  However,

if you wish to exclude the punter and the primarily ST guys (even the one who led the league in punt return yardage)  it still leaves sufficient players to disprove OP poster's contention (since one would suffice)

We do understand that players who "bounce around the league" (get picked up by different teams) are in fact "any good", because otherwise the teams who sign them would take younger and cheaper guys hot out of college and undrafted.  We understand that, right?

 

I'd say I eagerly await the contortions you'll undergo to avoid acknowledging a point, but Truth: I'd be lying.

1. He was absolutely wrong factually wrong with his example. The Bills GM has drafted more than one good player. you are factually correct.

 

2. The fact that you had to bring up a bunch of KR/PR’s, gunners, kick team specialists and punters to prove him wrong really just served the spirit of his argument and highlighted how low the bar truly has gotten.

 

It’s silly to say things like “not one.” You won that fight, easily. But I’m afraid your 11 examples lost the war lol.

[thenorthremembers]

When Keon finally matures he will still have the same amount of talent on the field.   His brain is part of the issue but not the bulk of it.  George Pickens has a smooth brain too.  He also can run and catch really well.   Plenty of immature wideouts have been incredible in the league.   Keon isnt going to start being great at 25 because he becomes mature.

[CNYfan]

Random, but some of the above reminded me that this current punter has been pretty good. 

[Augie]

9 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Beck gave you over 10 examples tho

 

But you responded with sarcasm 

 

 

 

 

 

That’s what you do when that’s all you got…..

[yall]

9 hours ago, SectionC3 said:

Any doesn’t mean every, no matter how hard you try to make it so.  
 

Coleman is hardly the first player, let alone the first wideout, to be late to or to miss a meeting.  Diggs, for example,  was chronically late,  so much so he had a dedicated parking spot next to the door.  Coleman’s on-field performance has been so abysmal that he didn’t get the Diggs treatment and was “outed” by the Bills for his immaturity.  So I’d say he has some pretty big problems.  
 

I’ll add another nugget.  I overhead, at the stadium on Sunday, a prominent member of the organization absolutely destroying Coleman.  I wasn’t part of the conversation, but I heard it well, and I was taken aback by the blunt and critical tone.  Lots of frustration with him.  

Always appreciate your insight here.

 

Without tipping your hand too much, can you be any more specific on the nature of their frustration? Ability, maturity, etc,?

[SectionC3]

5 minutes ago, yall said:

Always appreciate your insight here.

 

Without tipping your hand too much, can you be any more specific on the nature of their frustration? Ability, maturity, etc,?

Show up to friggin work.  Grow up.  Take it seriously.  Nobody else does this crap. Stuff like that.