Bills sign Jordan Poyer (to PS)

[Big Turk]

17 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

Let me articulate my problem better. It's another re-signing of a guy they are familiar with. If this were the only one, or one of a couple, fine, whatever. It has always been part of what Beane and McDermott do. We make fun of it with the Carolina thing and that has now continued with former Bills coming back. It's evidence that they have a fairly closed circle of people they are willing to give opportunities to. Brian Gaine gets fired in Houston and where does he end up? When Joe Schoen gets fired in NY in December is there any doubt that he will come back to Buffalo? Signing Dane Jackson this spring was inexpensive, but it cost them the opportunity to explore a different and potentially better player, and keeping him on the practice squad now does the same thing.  The pro scouting department couldn't find a single CB in the league that they rated more highly than Dane Jackson? He was the easy go-to because they know him. Same with Jordan Phillips. There were dozens of defensive tackles available and they reached for a guy who is pretty close to done, but is someone they know. Tre White seems like a great guy, it also seems like he's pretty close to physically done, but he was brought back. Cole Beasley was done but was brought back, ditto John Brown. AJ Klein was brought back after he was done, had to play in a key spot, and cost them big time. There was nobody else?

 

These back of the roster guys seem unimportant and they are, until they have to play. The NFL has injuries. That isn't going to stop.  The point of the PS for teams is to keep guys around and keep them prepared to play in an unexpected situation. They can choose to keep up to 6 veterans on the PS. These are the guys who would be the most likely to see action. The Bills are effectively choosing to only keep 5. Franklin, Feeney, Jackson, Wilkerson, and Phillips. The 6th is Poyer who as we saw the last 2 years, is done physically. Will that matter? Hopefully not. Rather than keeping a safety who can actually play safety that they can take the time to teach the defense if they need to play them (because apparently it's very difficult for a safety to learn) they kept a ST guy that the ST coach knows and the withered husk of another guy they know.

 

Obviously they don't do this with every hire and they've brought plenty of people in from the outside over the years, but they do it enough and over a long enough period of time that it gives me questions. Are they really open to all the potential solutions out there? Are they really listening to pro scouting or have they molded pro scouting into only giving them the answer they want to hear?

 

When your default choice is to go with what you know or who you know you aren't opening yourself up to other opportunities and you're locking yourself into a set of outcomes.  Think of it this way, if you had a group of players who weren't able to get it done when they were younger, healthier and better, why do you want to lock yourself into having those people back when they are older, more broken, and worse? Does it make your organization the best it can be or is it comfortable? Is Tre White here because he's the best option at CB2/3 or is it because you know he's good in the locker room and won't be a problem? Keep in mind, that doesn't mean that someone else you bring in to be that CB2/3 will necessarily be an issue, it's that you don't know.  Tre White doesn't have an upside to his development curve, the best he's going to be is what he is today and he will only get worse from here. Same with Dane Jackson, Jordan Phillips, Jordan Poyer etc. There isn't an upside to win. There is downside risk though. These guys are actually being counted on to provide key depth. When they are called on and can't deliver you've hurt yourself by keeping them around past their expiration dates. If you have to bring in Jordan Poyer to coach your safeties, maybe it's that your actual coach isn't getting it done. If you need to bring those guys back to teach the younger players your culture, you don't actually have a culture.

 

I'm sure this will get downvoted to hell. Whatever. When a safety gets hurt and the "Will Jordan Poyer play?" thread starts just remember why he's here and it's not because he was the best choice.

 

And those back of the roster guys are the ones who end up out of position for 85 yard TDs because they don't know where they should be.

 

The vets won't.

[That's No Moon]

2 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

And those back of the roster guys are the ones who end up out of position for 85 yard TDs because they don't know where they should be.

 

The vets won't.

Do you need me to post the video of Cook setting Poyer on fire, or of Poyer being wildly out of position on a TD pass in the Cincinnati playoff game right before they tried to get rid of him the first time?

[JGMcD2]

17 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

Let me articulate my problem better. It's another re-signing of a guy they are familiar with. If this were the only one, or one of a couple, fine, whatever. It has always been part of what Beane and McDermott do. We make fun of it with the Carolina thing and that has now continued with former Bills coming back. It's evidence that they have a fairly closed circle of people they are willing to give opportunities to. Brian Gaine gets fired in Houston and where does he end up? When Joe Schoen gets fired in NY in December is there any doubt that he will come back to Buffalo? Signing Dane Jackson this spring was inexpensive, but it cost them the opportunity to explore a different and potentially better player, and keeping him on the practice squad now does the same thing.  The pro scouting department couldn't find a single CB in the league that they rated more highly than Dane Jackson? He was the easy go-to because they know him. Same with Jordan Phillips. There were dozens of defensive tackles available and they reached for a guy who is pretty close to done, but is someone they know. Tre White seems like a great guy, it also seems like he's pretty close to physically done, but he was brought back. Cole Beasley was done but was brought back, ditto John Brown. AJ Klein was brought back after he was done, had to play in a key spot, and cost them big time. There was nobody else?

 

These back of the roster guys seem unimportant and they are, until they have to play. The NFL has injuries. That isn't going to stop.  The point of the PS for teams is to keep guys around and keep them prepared to play in an unexpected situation. They can choose to keep up to 6 veterans on the PS. These are the guys who would be the most likely to see action. The Bills are effectively choosing to only keep 5. Franklin, Feeney, Jackson, Wilkerson, and Phillips. The 6th is Poyer who as we saw the last 2 years, is done physically. Will that matter? Hopefully not. Rather than keeping a safety who can actually play safety that they can take the time to teach the defense if they need to play them (because apparently it's very difficult for a safety to learn) they kept a ST guy that the ST coach knows and the withered husk of another guy they know.

 

Obviously they don't do this with every hire and they've brought plenty of people in from the outside over the years, but they do it enough and over a long enough period of time that it gives me questions. Are they really open to all the potential solutions out there? Are they really listening to pro scouting or have they molded pro scouting into only giving them the answer they want to hear?

 

When your default choice is to go with what you know or who you know you aren't opening yourself up to other opportunities and you're locking yourself into a set of outcomes.  Think of it this way, if you had a group of players who weren't able to get it done when they were younger, healthier and better, why do you want to lock yourself into having those people back when they are older, more broken, and worse? Does it make your organization the best it can be or is it comfortable? Is Tre White here because he's the best option at CB2/3 or is it because you know he's good in the locker room and won't be a problem? Keep in mind, that doesn't mean that someone else you bring in to be that CB2/3 will necessarily be an issue, it's that you don't know.  Tre White doesn't have an upside to his development curve, the best he's going to be is what he is today and he will only get worse from here. Same with Dane Jackson, Jordan Phillips, Jordan Poyer etc. There isn't an upside to win. There is downside risk though. These guys are actually being counted on to provide key depth. When they are called on and can't deliver you've hurt yourself by keeping them around past their expiration dates. If you have to bring in Jordan Poyer to coach your safeties, maybe it's that your actual coach isn't getting it done. If you need to bring those guys back to teach the younger players your culture, you don't actually have a culture.

 

I'm sure this will get downvoted to hell. Whatever. When a safety gets hurt and the "Will Jordan Poyer play?" thread starts just remember why he's here and it's not because he was the best choice.

You’re hyper-focused on Buffalo as if this is some kind of problem, but the Chiefs do the exact same thing - and it’s widely accepted as smart roster management. Mecole Hardman walked away for two years, and KC traded a draft pick to bring him back. Derrick Nnadi left this offseason, and they traded to get him back almost immediately. Steven Nelson came out of retirement in late 2024 because they needed secondary depth. Even on the staff side, Matt Nagy left KC to be the Bears’ head coach, had an underwhelming tenure, and who called him back to serve as Offensive Coordinator? The Chiefs.

 

The point isn’t that Buffalo or KC is blindly keeping people around - it’s that bringing back familiar players or staff is a calculated, situational move, not evidence of a closed circle. KC does it; Buffalo does it. That’s smart roster and staff management, not a flaw.

[Doc Brown]

1 hour ago, That's No Moon said:

It's costing the Bills a slot they could use on a veteran that they could keep up to speed to plug in if needed.

What veteran? 

[That's No Moon]

Just now, Doc Brown said:

What veteran? 

They pay an entire scouting department to answer that question. You're telling me that group came up with Poyer as the top option? If that's the case, that's a different problem.

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

What veteran? 

[Shaw66]

12 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

Let me articulate my problem better. It's another re-signing of a guy they are familiar with. If this were the only one, or one of a couple, fine, whatever. It has always been part of what Beane and McDermott do. We make fun of it with the Carolina thing and that has now continued with former Bills coming back. It's evidence that they have a fairly closed circle of people they are willing to give opportunities to. Brian Gaine gets fired in Houston and where does he end up? When Joe Schoen gets fired in NY in December is there any doubt that he will come back to Buffalo? Signing Dane Jackson this spring was inexpensive, but it cost them the opportunity to explore a different and potentially better player, and keeping him on the practice squad now does the same thing.  The pro scouting department couldn't find a single CB in the league that they rated more highly than Dane Jackson? He was the easy go-to because they know him. Same with Jordan Phillips. There were dozens of defensive tackles available and they reached for a guy who is pretty close to done, but is someone they know. Tre White seems like a great guy, it also seems like he's pretty close to physically done, but he was brought back. Cole Beasley was done but was brought back, ditto John Brown. AJ Klein was brought back after he was done, had to play in a key spot, and cost them big time. There was nobody else?

 

These back of the roster guys seem unimportant and they are, until they have to play. The NFL has injuries. That isn't going to stop.  The point of the PS for teams is to keep guys around and keep them prepared to play in an unexpected situation. They can choose to keep up to 6 veterans on the PS. These are the guys who would be the most likely to see action. The Bills are effectively choosing to only keep 5. Franklin, Feeney, Jackson, Wilkerson, and Phillips. The 6th is Poyer who as we saw the last 2 years, is done physically. Will that matter? Hopefully not. Rather than keeping a safety who can actually play safety that they can take the time to teach the defense if they need to play them (because apparently it's very difficult for a safety to learn) they kept a ST guy that the ST coach knows and the withered husk of another guy they know.

 

Obviously they don't do this with every hire and they've brought plenty of people in from the outside over the years, but they do it enough and over a long enough period of time that it gives me questions. Are they really open to all the potential solutions out there? Are they really listening to pro scouting or have they molded pro scouting into only giving them the answer they want to hear?

 

When your default choice is to go with what you know or who you know you aren't opening yourself up to other opportunities and you're locking yourself into a set of outcomes.  Think of it this way, if you had a group of players who weren't able to get it done when they were younger, healthier and better, why do you want to lock yourself into having those people back when they are older, more broken, and worse? Does it make your organization the best it can be or is it comfortable? Is Tre White here because he's the best option at CB2/3 or is it because you know he's good in the locker room and won't be a problem? Keep in mind, that doesn't mean that someone else you bring in to be that CB2/3 will necessarily be an issue, it's that you don't know.  Tre White doesn't have an upside to his development curve, the best he's going to be is what he is today and he will only get worse from here. Same with Dane Jackson, Jordan Phillips, Jordan Poyer etc. There isn't an upside to win. There is downside risk though. These guys are actually being counted on to provide key depth. When they are called on and can't deliver you've hurt yourself by keeping them around past their expiration dates. If you have to bring in Jordan Poyer to coach your safeties, maybe it's that your actual coach isn't getting it done. If you need to bring those guys back to teach the younger players your culture, you don't actually have a culture.

 

I'm sure this will get downvoted to hell. Whatever. When a safety gets hurt and the "Will Jordan Poyer play?" thread starts just remember why he's here and it's not because he was the best choice.

This is really good but I don't think it's completely correct.  What you are correct about is that sometimes when these guys are called on to play, they can be liabilities. 

 

Where you're incorrect is when you say the reason those guys get signed is because McDermott and Beane know them, in the sense that they're bringing their buddies back.  That is not why these guys get signed. 

 

McDermott has things that he values above everything else. Not in any order, but they are teamwork, competitiveness, continuous improvement, growth mindset. He dislikes above almost everything failure to execute a play as designed. 

 

Notice that all these people we're talking about are on the defense.  That's because McDermott's defensive philosophy is an integrated team philosophy. The defense has to work as a unit, and when it works as a unit, he believes it can be most effective. It's a human machine. Working as a unit means each player does his job and relies on the other 10 to do theirs. When one guy doesn't do his job, when he makes the wrong read, takes the wrong first step, doesn't drop properly into his zone, whatever, then the machine malfunctions.  If a guy does his job but simply isn't quick enough to play the position really well, McDermott is okay with that, because the machine is still functioning properly, just not at peak effectiveness. (Notice that the Bills don't do this on offense, at least not at the skill positions. Gabe Davis came in for a talk, but the Bills didn't sign him.  What wideouts have to know to fit into the offense is much easier for a stranger to the system to execute, so the Bills didn't value his experience.  Davis was like Hyde, White, Poyer, Phillips - a multi-year starter in this system, but that just isn't as important on offense than defense.)

 

It isn't easy for players to learn their roles in this defense and execute them regularly. That's why we see so few rookies start in this defense.  Benford got rookie playing time out of necessity. Bernard barely saw the field. Because it isn't easy to execute the defense, when the Bills need a defender on an emergency basis, the best guy available from the Bills' point of view is a guy who's already done it.  That's why White and Jackson and Lewis and Phillips and Poyer and others. 

 

On top of that, as others have pointed out McBeane want those guys because they can help the young players get up the learning curve faster, which means that a talented guy may be able to get on the field faster. We've heard, and we saw on Hardknocks, that White was spending a lot of time with Hairston at training camp. White understood that if he could actually play, the Bills would be happy about it, but whether he could play or not, he had an important role getting Hairston up to speed. 

 

So, yes, McDermott and Beane know these guys they sign, but they don't sign them because they know them. They sign them because the guys they've had on the team before know how McDermott wants them to play and have shown they can do it. 

 

[Doc Brown]

4 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

They pay an entire scouting department to answer that question. You're telling me that group came up with Poyer as the top option? If that's the case, that's a different problem.

I figured you couldn't come up with one.  It's quite possible that Poyer was the best veteran safety on the market that wasn't on a team's 53 man roster already.  Plus, he knows the playbook in Latin and you get the benefit of him teaching a guy who really needs it like Cole Bishop.

[Mr. WEO]

As always, he’s the last to jump on the pile…

 

Bills need a FO that runs a business, not a charity

[That's No Moon]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

So, yes, McDermott and Beane know these guys they sign, but they don't sign them because they know them. They sign them because the guys they've had on the team before know how McDermott wants them to play and have shown they can do it. 

 

I don't mean know them as in personally, I mean know them in the ways you listed. 

 

Let me throw out another hand grenade. If your defense is so complex that it's prohibitively difficult for defensive backs to learn, the league is geared towards the proliferation of passing, and this defense continually fails you in the same way in key moments, is the defense the problem?  Particularly in a league where injuries are inevitable, you have a salary cap, and a low roster count.

 

That's a discussion for a different thread though.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

I figured you couldn't come up with one.  It's quite possible that Poyer was the best veteran safety on the market that wasn't on a team's 53 man roster already.  Plus, he knows the playbook in Latin and you get the benefit of him teaching a guy who really needs it like Cole Bishop.

This is BS, it doesn't matter who I threw out there you'd shoot it down. He knows the playbook in Latin because he went to grade school with Jesus of Nazareth.

[Big Turk]

32 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

Do you need me to post the video of Cook setting Poyer on fire, or of Poyer being wildly out of position on a TD pass in the Cincinnati playoff game right before they tried to get rid of him the first time?

 

And you are claiming that other players never allow bad plays against them or are we going to live in reality?

 

Safety is THE most important position in McDermott's D due to how they use them to disguise coverages and it's very hard to learn in a short time.

 

Which is why almost nobody has come in as a free agent or draft pick at safety and started right away. Hyde and Poyer both said it took them 2 years to feel comfortable there.

 

So if they are forced to use a safety that isn't familiar with how they do things and can't assimilate quickly, it means they have to greatly simplify their defense, which means their overall effectiveness goes down significantly.

 

So if I had to choose between a guy who can mentor the safeties, especially Bishop, on the team to help them become better, faster or some random bum who is going to get in a game and suck anyway and get maybe 10 snaps, I'm taking the mentor...he will be useful 24/7, the other guy won't be useful much at all, even when on the field.

[hondo in seattle]

34 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

Do you need me to post the video of Cook setting Poyer on fire, or of Poyer being wildly out of position on a TD pass in the Cincinnati playoff game right before they tried to get rid of him the first time?

 

Name any defensive player in the NFL and you can find video of them making bad plays.  You can't judge any player on their worst plays; it's the totality of their work that matters.  And according to PFF, which admittedly is flawed but does evaluate every play, Poyer had a better season last year than any safety currently on our roster. 

 

In any case, Poyer's role is not to be a starting safety.  His role is primarily to be a positive presence in meeting rooms, on the practice field, in the locker room, and on the sideline.  He'll excel in that role while also being a break-in-case-of-emergency backup.  

[Doc Brown]

53 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

This is BS, it doesn't matter who I threw out there you'd shoot it down. He knows the playbook in Latin because he went to grade school with Jesus of Nazareth.

It's not BS.  Any chance they had of upgrading safety with a veteran was shot once free agency and the draft was over with.  I thought they should've been in on Jevon Holland.  If the Bills felt they needed to add a veteran safety for the practice squad there wasn't a better option at this point unless I'm missing somebody.  

[3rdand12]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

And those back of the roster guys are the ones who end up out of position for 85 yard TDs because they don't know where they should be.

 

The vets won't.

That's no excuse. 

 They should know where tf they should be. 

Simplify enough for the players , and that opens up your ability to draft and FA

 

It's Coaching. to the bolded.

 

and thats the shame of bringing in a player who is physically washed.

Play fast hit people. know your assignments.

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

I mean even the most staunch Beane and McDermott defenders on this board, can't support this right?  

[3rdand12]

3 hours ago, Prospector said:

Poyer is always well groomed, so maybe he wants to groom the young guys too

is this like the "pouring himself" thing ?

[HIT BY SPIKES]

 

OH NOOOOOOOOO.....

 

 

[3rdand12]

1 hour ago, That's No Moon said:

I don't mean know them as in personally, I mean know them in the ways you listed. 

 

Let me throw out another hand grenade. If your defense is so complex that it's prohibitively difficult for defensive backs to learn, the league is geared towards the proliferation of passing, and this defense continually fails you in the same way in key moments, is the defense the problem?  Particularly in a league where injuries are inevitable, you have a salary cap, and a low roster count.

 

That's a discussion for a different thread though.

 

 

This is BS, it doesn't matter who I threw out there you'd shoot it down. He knows the playbook in Latin because he went to grade school with Jesus of Nazareth.

Well that might be Hebrew

 or Aramaic actually

May your  Deus benedicat tibi , and me too !

 

 I was honestly more worried about the running game in the playoffs

 Those chunks we gave up

 

[BringBackFergy]

2 hours ago, That's No Moon said:

Let me articulate my problem better. It's another re-signing of a guy they are familiar with. If this were the only one, or one of a couple, fine, whatever. It has always been part of what Beane and McDermott do. We make fun of it with the Carolina thing and that has now continued with former Bills coming back. It's evidence that they have a fairly closed circle of people they are willing to give opportunities to. Brian Gaine gets fired in Houston and where does he end up? When Joe Schoen gets fired in NY in December is there any doubt that he will come back to Buffalo? Signing Dane Jackson this spring was inexpensive, but it cost them the opportunity to explore a different and potentially better player, and keeping him on the practice squad now does the same thing.  The pro scouting department couldn't find a single CB in the league that they rated more highly than Dane Jackson? He was the easy go-to because they know him. Same with Jordan Phillips. There were dozens of defensive tackles available and they reached for a guy who is pretty close to done, but is someone they know. Tre White seems like a great guy, it also seems like he's pretty close to physically done, but he was brought back. Cole Beasley was done but was brought back, ditto John Brown. AJ Klein was brought back after he was done, had to play in a key spot, and cost them big time. There was nobody else?

 

These back of the roster guys seem unimportant and they are, until they have to play. The NFL has injuries. That isn't going to stop.  The point of the PS for teams is to keep guys around and keep them prepared to play in an unexpected situation. They can choose to keep up to 6 veterans on the PS. These are the guys who would be the most likely to see action. The Bills are effectively choosing to only keep 5. Franklin, Feeney, Jackson, Wilkerson, and Phillips. The 6th is Poyer who as we saw the last 2 years, is done physically. Will that matter? Hopefully not. Rather than keeping a safety who can actually play safety that they can take the time to teach the defense if they need to play them (because apparently it's very difficult for a safety to learn) they kept a ST guy that the ST coach knows and the withered husk of another guy they know.

 

Obviously they don't do this with every hire and they've brought plenty of people in from the outside over the years, but they do it enough and over a long enough period of time that it gives me questions. Are they really open to all the potential solutions out there? Are they really listening to pro scouting or have they molded pro scouting into only giving them the answer they want to hear?

 

When your default choice is to go with what you know or who you know you aren't opening yourself up to other opportunities and you're locking yourself into a set of outcomes.  Think of it this way, if you had a group of players who weren't able to get it done when they were younger, healthier and better, why do you want to lock yourself into having those people back when they are older, more broken, and worse? Does it make your organization the best it can be or is it comfortable? Is Tre White here because he's the best option at CB2/3 or is it because you know he's good in the locker room and won't be a problem? Keep in mind, that doesn't mean that someone else you bring in to be that CB2/3 will necessarily be an issue, it's that you don't know.  Tre White doesn't have an upside to his development curve, the best he's going to be is what he is today and he will only get worse from here. Same with Dane Jackson, Jordan Phillips, Jordan Poyer etc. There isn't an upside to win. There is downside risk though. These guys are actually being counted on to provide key depth. When they are called on and can't deliver you've hurt yourself by keeping them around past their expiration dates. If you have to bring in Jordan Poyer to coach your safeties, maybe it's that your actual coach isn't getting it done. If you need to bring those guys back to teach the younger players your culture, you don't actually have a culture.

 

I'm sure this will get downvoted to hell. Whatever. When a safety gets hurt and the "Will Jordan Poyer play?" thread starts just remember why he's here and it's not because he was the best choice.

[Sierra Foothills]

9 hours ago, Roundybout said:

I think people were initially upset that Poyer would be on the active roster. I don’t think it was clarified until later on that it was a PS signing.

 

The same thing happened in the Jordan Phillips topic as happened here.

 

You could almost change the last name and position and there wouldn't be any difference. In fact both topics stand right now at 17 pages.

 

 

9 hours ago, zow2 said:

Poyer is more washed than the 1991 Super Bowl t-shirt at the bottom of my drawer. The management here is really letting me down in that they cannot draft young difference makers back there and develop them.  

 

I'm sorry the Bills let you down... how dare they... 😆

 

8 hours ago, Andrew Son said:

It’s crazy.

 

i had the same criticism when we signed Von.  We draft all these DE’s early- Groot, AJ, Boogie- and then have to go out and spend $100M on an old player to get any impact 

 

7 hours ago, Gunsgoodtime said:

Me too.  The Von signing was an attempt to fix all the failed defensive draft picks and fa, and was yet another failure 

 

So... signing Von to a huge contract is the same as signing Jordan Poyer to the veteran minimum?