Keon Coleman success by route - Not pretty

[billsfan89]

32 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I said before last season, and repeat again before this season, the most important person on the offense other than Josh is Joe Brady.  He did well last year, and his philosophy of mixing the run and pass was very effective.  He needs to continue to improve and tweak things.  He needs to scheme effectively to use his new weapons in Palmer and Moore, and to maximize usage of guys like Coleman’s and Kincaid.

 

To me if there is any personnel thing that concerns me right now it is making sure they have Cook on the field in a proper mindset to have a big year.

 

Man football is so complex at the NFL level because what you are saying is true but it also comes down to players developing, staying healthy, and executing. While coaching has a big hand in how players do those things it also just comes down to the players themselves. It's a lot going on but I am hoping Brady continues to develop as a playcaller and coach as well because it is so vital to how this team operates offensively. 

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I’ll stay out of this one because I’ve said my piece on this many times. Are we now questioning the validity of PFF? While we might not always agree with them, we can’t act like they don’t have credibility because we don’t like the data. All 32 NFL teams use their data. We can argue that receivers not getting open didn’t play a role in Josh’s inaccuracy down the field. We can’t argue that the people producing the data aren’t credible.

The issue with PFF is people’s opinion changes on it on every piece of data it puts out based on their own confirmation bias.  When the data matches their views, then the data is great…when it doesn’t match their views, then PFF is a joke and sucks.  
 

I don’t say that about anything to do with this thread, just commenting on the convenient times PFF is good or bad depending on whether the data confirms or conflicts with one’s bias.  

[Kirby Jackson]

7 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

I wasn't questioning the validity of PFF data.   I was questioning the use of it by the OP as ammunition in his crusade.

Looks like the comment about amateur scouts or whatever it said was deleted. That was what I was asking about. When I read it, I was like, “wait now we are questioning if PFF knows that they’re doing?”
 

Lol, I studied journalism some in college. Watching what has happened over the last dozen or so years frustrates me. Everyone injects bias into their reporting. If someone doesn’t like the information, they attack the credibility of the source. There’s certainly a time for that but when I see people attack the credibility of an organization, with stellar credibility, I cringe. We may not always agree with PFF’s data but 32 teams accept it as real and important. That was my point. 

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

The issue with PFF is people’s opinion changes on it on every piece of data it puts out based on their own confirmation bias.  When the data matches their views, then the data is great…when it doesn’t match their views, then PFF is a joke and sucks.  
 

I don’t say that about anything to do with this thread, just commenting on the convenient times PFF is good or bad depending on whether the data confirms or conflicts with one’s bias.  

I think that’s a fair comment and kind of inline with my last post. We decide when we want to use data or believe a particular media outlet. We like them when they fit our agenda or narrative. That’s frustrating. 

[oldmanfan]

29 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Man football is so complex at the NFL level because what you are saying is true but it also comes down to players developing, staying healthy, and executing. While coaching has a big hand in how players do those things it also just comes down to the players themselves. It's a lot going on but I am hoping Brady continues to develop as a playcaller and coach as well because it is so vital to how this team operates offensively. 

I agree completely.  

[Alphadawg7]

31 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

 

I think that’s a fair comment and kind of inline with my last post. We decide when we want to use data or believe a particular media outlet. We like them when they fit our agenda or narrative. That’s frustrating.

 

 

Agreed

[BarleyNY]

On 5/22/2025 at 11:38 AM, billsfan89 said:

 

I rarely thought Brady made bad play calls designs, I think where he has to improve is having a few more layers to his offense and I think much like Andy Reid has his "S Level" stuff for the playoffs I think Brady has to develop that extra set of plays to keep in his back pocket. I feel like KC will probably keep 10% of their playbook off film during the regular season only to unleash it throughout the playoffs (likely I would assume practicing the plays in closed settings throughout the season to keep them sharp). I would like to see the Bills have that type of elite level plays that they save for key situations. 

 

McDermott is largely an excellent coach, but his issue has always been the change up plays. He does not have a feel for them and the team has not been prepared for them. It’s most evident against Reid, who knows him so well. How many times have we seen it in the playoffs against KC? Reid shows one thing all season and game, then hits the Bills with the change up in the playoffs. It’s been the difference in those games. 

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

I looked at some stats and I think think one important WR stat is WR targets. How much was Josh throwing Coleman the ball ?

 

Since Lions game when Coleman came back, he wasn't getting alot of targets

 

-Detroit 2 targets 

-NE 2 targets 

-Jets 7 targets for 27 yards

-NE game excluded, no Josh

-Den playoff 3 tgts for 5 yds

-Bal playoff 1 targets

-Chiefs 4 targets 12 yards

 

What is the cause of such few targets?

 

-Did Josh just have alot of other options in passing game ?

- too much running with Cook ?

- Brady not able to scheme him open

- Coleman not getting open ?

 

I'm starting to think more and more it's Brady not being able to counter move what DCs are showing him.

 

His schemes start off good but he doesn't know how to adjust after DCs adjust to his first set of plays

 

 

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

I looked at some stats and I think think one important WR stat is WR targets. How much was Josh throwing Coleman the ball ?

 

Since Lions game when Coleman came back, he wasn't getting alot of targets

 

-Detroit 2 targets 

-NE 2 targets 

-Jets 7 targets for 27 yards

-NE game excluded, no Josh

-Den playoff 3 tgts for 5 yds

-Bal playoff 1 targets

-Chiefs 4 targets 12 yards

 

What is the cause of such few targets?

 

-Did Josh just have alot of other options in passing game ?

- too much running with Cook ?

- Brady not able to scheme him open

- Coleman not getting open ?

 

I'm starting to think more and more it's Brady not being able to counter move what DCs are showing him.

 

His schemes start off good but he doesn't know how to adjust after DCs adjust to his first set of plays

 

 

 

Why didn't Keon get open in college then if it's all Brady's fault?

[nedboy7]

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Why didn't Keon get open in college then if it's all Brady's fault?

You don’t understand Brady’s influence in the quantum field.  

[Logic]

1 hour ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

I looked at some stats and I think think one important WR stat is WR targets. How much was Josh throwing Coleman the ball ?

 

Since Lions game when Coleman came back, he wasn't getting alot of targets

 

-Detroit 2 targets 

-NE 2 targets 

-Jets 7 targets for 27 yards

-NE game excluded, no Josh

-Den playoff 3 tgts for 5 yds

-Bal playoff 1 targets

-Chiefs 4 targets 12 yards

 

What is the cause of such few targets?

 

-Did Josh just have alot of other options in passing game ?

- too much running with Cook ?

- Brady not able to scheme him open

- Coleman not getting open ?

 

I'm starting to think more and more it's Brady not being able to counter move what DCs are showing him.

 

His schemes start off good but he doesn't know how to adjust after DCs adjust to his first set of plays

 

 

Keon wasn't the same player after injury.

Not the same level of intensity nor effectiveness.

The coach and GM both publicly stated this.
 

[BillsVet]

5 minutes ago, Logic said:

Keon wasn't the same player after injury.

Not the same level of intensity nor effectiveness.

The coach and GM both publicly stated this.

 

Thankfully, McBeane are exonerated from the Coleman pick because team media told us it was Josh who wanted him. 

 

In all seriousness, if you're trying to motivate words alone typically don't get it done.  Get some competition if the investment is as significant as they make it out to be.

[Robert Paulson]

2 hours ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

I looked at some stats and I think think one important WR stat is WR targets. How much was Josh throwing Coleman the ball ?

 

Since Lions game when Coleman came back, he wasn't getting alot of targets

 

-Detroit 2 targets 

-NE 2 targets 

-Jets 7 targets for 27 yards

-NE game excluded, no Josh

-Den playoff 3 tgts for 5 yds

-Bal playoff 1 targets

-Chiefs 4 targets 12 yards

 

What is the cause of such few targets?

 

-Did Josh just have alot of other options in passing game ?

- too much running with Cook ?

- Brady not able to scheme him open

- Coleman not getting open ?

 

I'm starting to think more and more it's Brady not being able to counter move what DCs are showing him.

 

His schemes start off good but he doesn't know how to adjust after DCs adjust to his first set of plays

 

 

Coleman looked lazy and disinterested when he came back. I still think he hit the rookie wall and was physically, mentally, emotionally exhausted.

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

Keon wasn't the same player after injury.

Not the same level of intensity nor effectiveness.

The coach and GM both publicly stated this.
 

How do we know for sure ?

 

In games after the injury he was only targeted 1-2 times a game so he wasn't even getting any opportunities to even catch the ball.

 

You could make the argument that since his injury he wasn't getting open and therefore Josh was targeting him far less.

 

If he had an ankle injury, that would make sense. With an ankle injury he would be slower and not running routes as effectively.

 

But he had a wrist injury which shouldn't affect his ability to run routes at all.

 

With his wrist injury, if Josh was targeting him and he had alot of drops, that would make sense. You could make the argument that Josh stopped targeting him because he had too many drops.

 

But Coleman is not even getting opportunities to even drop the ball.

 

He's getting almost no opportunities at all.

 

To me this points to offensive scheme.

 

DCs adjusted to what Brady was doing with Coleman and Brady could not counter it

[Logic]

1 hour ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

How do we know for sure ?

 

In games after the injury he was only targeted 1-2 times a game so he wasn't even getting any opportunities to even catch the ball.

 

You could make the argument that since his injury he wasn't getting open and therefore Josh was targeting him far less.

 

If he had an ankle injury, that would make sense. With an ankle injury he would be slower and not running routes as effectively.

 

But he had a wrist injury which shouldn't affect his ability to run routes at all.

 

With his wrist injury, if Josh was targeting him and he had alot of drops, that would make sense. You could make the argument that Josh stopped targeting him because he had too many drops.

 

But Coleman is not even getting opportunities to even drop the ball.

 

He's getting almost no opportunities at all.

 

To me this points to offensive scheme.

 

DCs adjusted to what Brady was doing with Coleman and Brady could not counter it

I don't find it particularly reasonable to, on the one hand, suggest that it's not possible to deduce that Keon's reduced effectiveness in getting open and executing his plays was responsible for his getting less targets....while on the other hand deducing that Brady's scheme and opposing DC's ability to counter-act it was to blame.

There are all sorts of charts, metrics, and analytics measuring receiver performance -- some of which form the basis for the very thread in which you're replying. None of them paint a very flattering picture for Keon Coleman. There's also the eye test, and for me, that test indicated that Coleman didn't look like the same guy after injury that he was before it. And again, his head coach and GM literally SAID as much after the season. 

If you want to blame scheme, that's certainly your prerogative.

I choose to lean more toward the idea that the young, raw, not-so-great-at-separating-to-begin-with WR who dealt with maturity, work ethic, and injury rehab issues was more to blame for his own waning effectiveness than the OC who coordinated the second highest scoring offense in the league.

Edited 38 minutes ago by Logic