The Worthy Trade Keeps Looking Worse and Worse

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

2 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

The idea that a lighter guy can take as much punishment as a larger guy is an extreme minority take.   People upstream in this thread mentioned durability as a huge reason to pass on Worthy.

 

Most rational people realize that Worthy's increased risk of injury factored into the FO's decision not to take him.  And while, of course, wishing injury on anyone is a bad look, it does help support the decision made by the FO/Beane.

There’s definitely small guys that play bigger than their size I just don’t think worthy is one of them.  He doesn’t really seem proficient at fighting for contested catches and it feels like he’s not really great at making adjustments to his speed when tracking a ball. Someone like Devonta smith is thin also and not very strong but seems a lot more feisty 

 

im just not buying the worthy hype yet…I feel like he’s got a shot to develop into the player that people seem to think he is right now he just doesn’t look there yet to me 

[Augie]

6 hours ago, SirAndrew said:

Davonta Smith is 170lbs and seems to be doing just fine. Cole Beasley had a nice career at 174. I just think it’s false to assume these guys are going to injured anymore than the next guy. 

I hear you, but it reminds me of the DaVonta Smith argument when Philly drafted him. I didn’t understand, because if a 170 pound guy survives high level college football, why are we assuming he’ll be injured in the NFL? Yes, NFL players are more physically gifted, but SEC football players are big dudes too. 

 

Oh, I’m certainly not trying to say it can’t happen, because it obviously does. I’m just pointing out that it is the rare exception and not the rule. I didn’t see the game last night, but apparently he was injured by a teammate who had zero intention of hurting him.  Imagine some guys with bad intent getting ahold of him. Anyone can get hurt, but that small size that makes him fast also makes him much more vulnerable to injury and less effective in the run game. 

 

There, I said it, so now he’s heading to the Hall of Fame. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

3 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

The idea that a lighter guy can take as much punishment as a larger guy is an extreme minority take.   People upstream in this thread mentioned durability as a huge reason to pass on Worthy.

 

Most rational people realize that Worthy's increased risk of injury factored into the FO's decision not to take him.  And while, of course, wishing injury on anyone is a bad look, it does help support the decision made by the FO/Beane.

 

Taking a guy like Worthy for gimic like plays isn't a bad idea, but taking him in 1st round, and then using him as an every down player is risky.

 

Could turn out this is the only injury of his career or was just lucky last year.

 

Was funny injury happened right after  announcers said KC plans to use him more this year

[TBBills Fan]

7 hours ago, muppy said:

this is a great post and something I have wondered about. You would think that as a simple matter of physics a guy 150 soaking wet would do poorly when colliding with someone of much larger size. 

 

But  what you wrote made me think twice and realize it's not as simple as that

I always equated small size with fragile in the NFL

 

the punishment on a smaller frame is the same as a larger at the physical level NFL players play?

 

Its an interesting discussion

yeah injuries are the bane of ALL NFL teams.

 

wishing injury on someone is a bad look. It invokes dare I say karma

 

yeah Its an unfortunate part of the game but next man UP right? right.

I figured this thread would be bumped after last night. KC losing was a nice way to spend a Friday night not gonna lie

Regarding what you said above and I'm no scientist but I think the math would back me up

 

The force hitting NFL players does remain the same regardless of the players size (meaning the impact of the blow delivered is the the same regardless of the size of the guy being hit) however I would think the potential impact damage in the force being hit would be greater as you lower weight. 

Edited Sunday at 12:37 AM by TBBills Fan

[SirAndrew]

1 hour ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Taking a guy like Worthy for gimic like plays isn't a bad idea, but taking him in 1st round, and then using him as an every down player is risky.

 

Could turn out this is the only injury of his career or was just lucky last year.

 

Was funny injury happened right after  announcers said KC plans to use him more this year

KC was in the position where they have the luxury of drafting a player with a limited skillset. It was toward the end of the first round, and I’m sure they viewed him as a role player, but one who could contribute to more Super Bowl wins. 

[Augie]

11 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

KC was in the position where they have the luxury of drafting a player with a limited skillset. It was toward the end of the first round, and I’m sure they viewed him as a role player, but one who could contribute to more Super Bowl wins. 

 

I agree with that. Nothing happens in a vacuum, and we both drafted to get better as a team. Andy Reid had ideas of what he could do with Worthy, and the Bills wanted a guy who could play thru the manhandling the Chiefs DB’s were allowed to get away with in the playoffs. I hope it pays off, but I’ll certainly enjoy finding out. 

 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

1 hour ago, TBBills Fan said:

Regarding what you said above and I'm no scientist but I think the math would back me up

 

The force hitting NFL players does remain the same regardless of the players size however I would think the potential impact damage in the force being hit would be greater as you lower weight. 

I'm gonna have to disagree. When you're talking about a head-on collision the force of the impact will be governed by F=ma. Force = mass x acceleration. So all other things being equal, the bigger the player, the greater the force. 

Of course, that's only a subset of the football collisions. But still, that always struck me as why some of the worst collisions we see are not with smaller players but with big/fast players. The classic old kickoff play with the linebacker/fullback size guys running right at each other at high speed.

So ... I'm not sure the little guys have, on average, shorter careers than the bigger guys at the same position. Think of the beating the battering ram type RB takes vs. the small RB.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

39 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

KC was in the position where they have the luxury of drafting a player with a limited skillset. It was toward the end of the first round, and I’m sure they viewed him as a role player, but one who could contribute to more Super Bowl wins. 

 

Yeah but sounds like he's no longer being considered a role player, now he's treated as a regular every down starter.  

 

Do agree was near end off 1st round and they were a strong team, but their WR room isn't the best either. 

 

Would they have been better trading up a few more spots to get a guy like McConkey and maybe they tried?

[NoSaint]

2 hours ago, SirAndrew said:

Exactly, it seems obvious that a larger object colliding with someone smaller is bad for the smaller person. However, I think there’s a lot more at play, I’m not a science guy, but NFL players seem equally injury prone. While other players happen to be somewhat immune to injury with good fortune.
 

Remember, these 165 pound NFL players aren’t skin and bones. These guys are in peak condition, and likely more muscle bound than the average 230 pound dude on the street. I’m sure smaller players don’t absorb hits as well, but once again, there’s more at play. Being a large human (muscular or not) puts a lot of stress on the body also. They might absorb hits better, but their joints, bones, and muscles must work really hard. I just think these things really even out the injury risk. 

being a smaller and agile guy, he likely avoids more direct hits too. 
 

some balance that a guy like Keon is probably easier to hit squarely, even if he absorbs hits a little better. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

42 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Yeah but sounds like he's no longer being considered a role player, now he's treated as a regular every down starter.  

 

Do agree was near end off 1st round and they were a strong team, but their WR room isn't the best either. 

 

Would they have been better trading up a few more spots to get a guy like McConkey and maybe they tried?

I really think they should’ve traded up for fautanu in 2024…the worthy pick is still so odd to me but it could work out in the aggregate if he’s great. It almost feels like Suamataia wasn’t their guy but they got stuck with him at their real position of need thinking someone else would be available…he was such a project type guy and there was a good chance he didn’t work out. 
 

They haven’t really been hitting on their picks to shore up the trenches on either side of the ball and it’s starting to show.  Simmons looked pretty good though but it took them like 3 early OL draft picks and a couple free agents to find him which is tough when parity is kickin your ass haha 

 

defensive side they double dipped on Karlaftis early in 2022 and FAU early in 2023, karlaftis seems ok but FAU is lookin like a bust and I don’t think they’ve gotten nearly the return on investment they expected with those two picks 

 

if they somehow got Fautanu in 2023 and paired him with Simmons in 2024 they’d be so dangerous right now imo.  It would take worthy being really really good to get them ahead of that hypothetical lineup of course they’d have to had given up some more assets in the trade up 

Edited Saturday at 11:56 PM by Generic_Bills_Fan

[bigduke6]

hey look,  a little fast guy got hurt.  what a surprise.  they tend to have limited shelf lives in the NFL.  

[ganesh]

3 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

There’s definitely small guys that play bigger than their size I just don’t think worthy is one of them.  He doesn’t really seem proficient at fighting for contested catches and it feels like he’s not really great at making adjustments to his speed when tracking a ball. Someone like Devonta smith is thin also and not very strong but seems a lot more feisty 

 

im just not buying the worthy hype yet…I feel like he’s got a shot to develop into the player that people seem to think he is right now he just doesn’t look there yet to me 

He had a great AFCC game against us in January. 

19 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I really think they should’ve traded up for fautanu in 2024…the worthy pick is still so odd to me but it could work out in the aggregate if he’s great. It almost feels like Suamataia wasn’t their guy but they got stuck with him at their real position of need thinking someone else would be available…he was such a project type guy and there was a good chance he didn’t work out. 
 

They haven’t really been hitting on their picks to shore up the trenches on either side of the ball and it’s starting to show.  Simmons looked pretty good though but it took them like 3 early OL draft picks and a couple free agents to find him which is tough when parity is kickin your ass haha 

 

defensive side they double dipped on Karlaftis early in 2022 and FAU early in 2023, karlaftis seems ok but FAU is lookin like a bust and I don’t think they’ve gotten nearly the return on investment they expected with those two picks 

 

if they somehow got Fautanu in 2023 and paired him with Simmons in 2024 they’d be so dangerous right now imo.  It would take worthy being really really good to get them ahead of that hypothetical lineup of course they’d have to had given up some more assets in the trade up 

With all this 'inability' to find talent, that team is gunning for its fourth consecutive SB appearance...Will any day take that drafting than our inability to get to the big dance with our draft picks especially for the defense.

1 hour ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Yeah but sounds like he's no longer being considered a role player, now he's treated as a regular every down starter.  

 

Do agree was near end off 1st round and they were a strong team, but their WR room isn't the best either. 

 

Would they have been better trading up a few more spots to get a guy like McConkey and maybe they tried?

McConkey was a 2nd round pick..Worthy was a late 1st round pick.  They could have had their choice if they desired.   McConkey does not have the speed of Worthy

[TBBills Fan]

1 hour ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I'm gonna have to disagree. When you're talking about a head-on collision the force of the impact will be governed by F=ma. Force = mass x acceleration. So all other things being equal, the bigger the player, the greater the force. 

Of course, that's only a subset of the football collisions. But still, that always struck me as why some of the worst collisions we see are not with smaller players but with big/fast players. The classic old kickoff play with the linebacker/fullback size guys running right at each other at high speed.

So ... I'm not sure the little guys have, on average, shorter careers than the bigger guys at the same position. Think of the beating the battering ram type RB takes vs. the small RB.

I think we said the same thing. 

 

Regardless of size, the force is the force.  Bigger guys, more force. 

 

Edit- my bad I didn't realize how badly worked my post was.  

 

I was referring to the fact that the impact delivered is the same regardless of the size of the object being impacted)

 

 

Edited Sunday at 12:38 AM by TBBills Fan

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

28 minutes ago, ganesh said:

He had a great AFCC game against us in January. 

With all this 'inability' to find talent, that team is gunning for its fourth consecutive SB appearance...Will any day take that drafting than our inability to get to the big dance with our draft picks especially for the defense.

They had zero inability to find talent until very recently…veach was money for a long time.  The effects don’t really show up instantly especially when you have monsters like Chris jones maskin a lot of your issues.  Those guys eventually start to slow down though and then the cracks start to show. 

 

Worthy had a good game against us I’d say.  kinda disappeared in the second half when things tightened up though and that 30 ish yard catch getting upheld was absolutely criminal lol.  Realistically he had a 5 catch 60 yard with a td type game where most of that was in the first half 

Same thing happened against us in the regular season where he kinda vanished  in the second half.  Only showed up for the less important half against Philly also.   I think he could develop into a great player I just don’t think he’s as close to it yet as most of the internet thinks he is and I still think if they traded up a little further for a guard they’d be back to pretty much unstoppable on offense.  Worthy is good but not giving them value like that yet 

 

im not saying the chiefs can’t win anyway if mahomes plays absolutely out of his mind…but this is approaching straight up gaslighting that people are implying the chiefs don’t have clear flaws from a pretty bad run of recent drafting just because they’ve been making superbowls still 😂. 

Edited Sunday at 12:42 AM by Generic_Bills_Fan

[SoTier]

7 hours ago, HardyBoy said:

 

I mean both my kids have high functioning autism and I likely have it too (undiagnosed) and I definitely have adhd that wasn't diagnoased until my last year of college and my wife has adhd and wasn't diagnosed until into her 30s.

 

Getting diagnosed with that stuff, especially for women is really challenging, because a lot of the early research was done on disruptive boys in classrooms and girls on average don't present their symptoms that way... I'm also not gossiping, I'm highlighting the things that people make fun of Taylor Swift for are things that certainly are present in people with autism and neurodivergence more generally

 

https://www.yourtango.com/self/signs-taylor-swift-may-be-autistic-or-neurodivergent

 

I'm not particularly a follower of Swift's personal life, but the article's description of the some of Swift's traits/behaviors do suggest that she may very well be somewhere on the Autism Spectrum.   Autism isn't a new mental disorder -- it was first recognized by a psychiatrist in 1943 -- although it was only recognized by the American Psychiatric Association as a mental disorder in 1980.  It wasn't until 2013 that the APA officially recognized that several disorders with overlapping symptoms were related and consolidated those under "Autism Spectrum Disorder". 

 

Many very creative or successful people exhibit traits that could be evidence of ASD.  Some historians think that the great artist Vincent Van Gogh could have suffered from ASD.   Having attended the VanGogh immersive experience that came to Buffalo several years ago, I think it's a plausible explanation for Van Gogh's genius as well as his rather chaotic personal life.

[Success]

The national discussion around this trade still annoys me.

 

It's over 90% that both teams end up w/ the same player even without the trade.

 

[SoTier]

2 hours ago, SirAndrew said:

KC was in the position where they have the luxury of drafting a player with a limited skillset. It was toward the end of the first round, and I’m sure they viewed him as a role player, but one who could contribute to more Super Bowl wins. 

 

They didn't have "the luxury of drafting a player with a limited skillset" in the first round.  They needed another every down WR plus a better OT than they had as well some youth on their DL.   They were desperate to add another speed demon like Tyreek, so they were willing to overlook Worthy's negatives to get that speed.  

 

 

[Buffalo716]

9 hours ago, NewEra said:

i hear ya.  Maybe my premonition is false.  I still don’t want to draft a player in rd 1 that weighs 165 pounds. I never will.  
 

 

He named a Heisman winner as an outlier lol

 

Davante Smith plays much bigger than his size...

 

Worthy does not.. Tyreek Hill doesn't play like he's 5 ft 9... Worthy does play like a little guy so I don't think he's changing that anytime soon

[SirAndrew]

8 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

They didn't have "the luxury of drafting a player with a limited skillset" in the first round.  They needed another every down WR plus a better OT than they had as well some youth on their DL.   They were desperate to add another speed demon like Tyreek, so they were willing to overlook Worthy's negatives to get that speed.  

 

 

You’re not necessarily wrong, but I think the Chiefs believed they had that luxury. I don’t think all GM’s value big physical every down receivers the way fans do. I agree, they were desperate for the next Tyreek Hill, but Hill became a superstar, and he certainly wasn’t the type of prototype dominant receiver I grew up watching. 

6 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

He named a Heisman winner as an outlier lol

 

Davante Smith plays much bigger than his size...

 

Worthy does not.. Tyreek Hill doesn't play like he's 5 ft 9... Worthy does play like a little guy so I don't think he's changing that anytime soon

Worthy does play like a little guy, but the Chiefs wanted big plays, he can still provide those. We drafted Coleman because we wanted a physical receiver who can thrive against tight coverage. Teams draft for different needs. Worthy had 59 receptions last season, that’s a decent rookie year. I don’t know why so many want to convince themselves he’s garbage. 

Edited Sunday at 12:56 AM by SirAndrew

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

You’re not necessarily wrong, but I think the Chiefs believed they had that luxury. I don’t think all GM’s value big physical every down receivers the way fans do. I agree, they were desperate for the next Tyreek Hill, but Hill became a superstar, and he certainly wasn’t the type of prototype dominant receiver I grew up watching. 

Tyreek hill is under 5'9 actually... At that height he is a extreme athlete 

 

Like he isn't skinny he is thick lol he probably weighs 190 lbs which is huge at that height

 

You're right that he doesn't have the prototypical height but he has a great build

6 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

You’re not necessarily wrong, but I think the Chiefs believed they had that luxury. I don’t think all GM’s value big physical every down receivers the way fans do. I agree, they were desperate for the next Tyreek Hill, but Hill became a superstar, and he certainly wasn’t the type of prototype dominant receiver I grew up watching. 

Worthy does play like a little guy, but the Chiefs wanted big plays, he can still provide those. We drafted Coleman because we wanted a physical receiver who can thrive against tight coverage. Teams draft for different needs. Worthy had 59 receptions last season, that’s a decent rookie year. I don’t know why so many want to convince themselves he’s garbage. 

I never said he's trash 

 

I said he's a thin framed wide receiver.. and he doesn't have the college production of Smith