Ladd McConkey

[BuffaloBillyG]

11 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

What evidence do you have of this?  

Just in what has been said publicly by both Allen and Beane. 

[DCOrange]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'm not here defending Keon. I am on record as thinking he was a bad pick. You can read my scouting reports on him from before the slow combine let alone before the Bills picked him. He was one of the first players I watched in January 2024 when I started my process for that draft and every game I put the film of on I ended up knocking his grade down even further. But if you think you could draft Ladd McConkey and use him as an X, that's for the birds.

Yeah, part of the issue for us in that draft is once you got past what was IMO a very clear top 4 WR prospects, nobody fit really neatly into the X role, especially if you look at the position in a more traditional way as I think Beane tends to do. Was basically Coleman (I know the arguments that he'd be more successful in the slot too, but he undoubtedly has the sort of frame that traditionalists target for the X role), Mitchell, Legette, maybe Polk. Other potential X's would be Jermaine Burton, Javon Baker, and Troy Franklin, but none of them ultimately got taken that early in the draft. If our plan the whole time was to grab an X and give them essentially zero competition for snaps, I don't really understand how we weren't more desperate to trade up for one of the top 4.

[Brandon]

4 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

And your evidence that this mattered in Bean making the pick is?  Sure AFTER they drafted Coleman word got out that Allen "wanted" Coleman.  What else was Allen supposed to say?  

 

Now did Allen talk to McBean about getting a big physical WR that could open up the boundary and turn 50/50 balls into 80/20?  That I could buy. But whether Bean traded the pick to sign a vet or move up in the draft as opposed to moving down to secure Coleman was all on Bean.  There were a number of ways Bean could have secured what Allen likely expressed an interest in getting at WR.  

 

  

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/bills-gm-brandon-beane-josh-allen-pretty-pumped-we-drafted-wr-keon-coleman

 

I'm not blaming Allen at all,  but it sounds like he may have had some influence.   Regardless,  that pick is 100% on Beane.  

[DCOrange]

15 minutes ago, tigerthelion said:

You could be right, but  I have my doubts about Josh Allen banging the table for him.  I would say that it is more likely that the Buffalo media team were trying to sell Coleman to the fanbase, and Josh went along with it (and maybe even convinced himself that Keon was gonna be great after the pick was made).   It's possible that he really wanted Keon, but I think it's more probable that after the pick was made, there was a full on team media push that Keon was gonna be great and he was handpicked by Josh Allen, etc....

I think it would probably make sense for Josh to have liked Keon (and to be fair, it does seem like Josh pays more attention than most NFL players to the draft), but I also agree that it's not like Josh was going to publicly come out and be like "Yeah, I really hated Coleman as a prospect, but it's the best we could muster. We'll see I guess."

[dollars 2 donuts]

2 hours ago, Brandon said:

 

It's not hindsight if my position has been consistent from the 2024 draft process until now.  I was sold on drafting McConkey for about a month prior to the draft.  

 

2 hours ago, KOKBILLS said:

McConkey lining up outside and just roasting the CB for a 27 yd TD pass last night...

Bills fans who know...

 

 

Brothers...man, what can I tell you?

 

Yeah...definitely yeah.

 

"OOOOOOOOhhhhhh, now you say that about Ladd!!"

 

Nope...note just now.

 

Here IS the thing, though.  After some of these pick are made you do start to convince yourself, just to get over it.

 

It seems a lifelong thing...2006 NFL Draft:

 

Me and my buddy, in the same room - "The Raiders took Huff!  It is happening!  We are getting Haloti Ngata!!! We are getting him!!"

 

Moments later - "...

 

...

 

... (because, no lie, we were silent for about 30 seconds)

 

...Whitner?

 

Donte Whitner?!

 

It'll be alright.  He's good.  Good pick.  It will be fine."

 

 

Edited 59 minutes ago by dollars 2 donuts

[colin]

WRs bust off all the time, so i can't really be mad at mcbean about keon.  i didn't want him, but that's only because joe marino didn't want him, joe marino liked that guy from SC (lagget?) who carolina got, and he's god awful, like not 1/5th as good as keon is so far.

 

i think the big issue is, and this is an again again again, brady/mccoach is so schematically set in his ways/arrogant that scheme fit is just way too important vs like every other aspect of a player.  we called mcbean the db whisperer and he has a really strong track record of getting db performance, making OK players look like stars, but i think a big part of that is they were perfect for his scheme and his scheme was perfect for them.  it's easy to identify the traits/skills that we don't have at the wr position (palmer kinda has the man beating seperation by route running deep threat gene, but not in great quantities, and OF COURSE he's hurt) but (and i thought this was a good thing but what do i know) we seem to just love wrs who can run block above all else.  we are the number 1 or 2 rushing team in the nfl, and that's awesome, but it seems to have come at the cost of being able to let josh cook, and what really grinds my gears is we are lining up in like 11 vs NE and atl and getting nothing from it.  

 

there is an element, particularly on offense, of brean getting players (hines before, or the mix of backs and tes and ol we have now, you have to give him flowers for the job he's done there) and our OC just like refusing to use them.  we are near the bottom in the nfl in passes to backs, and last year we seemed allergic to play action passes (when we ran them the numbers were astounding).

 

we ish on bean for the lack of talent on the roster, and we ish on the corches for the frustrating stuff we see ahead of time but they seem to notice late in the game or not at all, but one of the biggest reasons i kinda thing we need a big reset of some kind is because if we just look at what our GM has done well (qb, rb, te, ol) it's baffling how our OC is running an O that emphasizes our total lack of talent at x/z.  the disconnect in our brain trust is itself i think our biggest issue right now.

[dollars 2 donuts]

2 minutes ago, colin said:

WRs bust off all the time, so i can't really be mad at mcbean about keon.  i didn't want him, but that's only because joe marino didn't want him, joe marino liked that guy from SC (lagget?) who carolina got, and he's god awful, like not 1/5th as good as keon is so far.

 

i think the big issue is, and this is an again again again, brady/mccoach is so schematically set in his ways/arrogant that scheme fit is just way too important vs like every other aspect of a player.  we called mcbean the db whisperer and he has a really strong track record of getting db performance, making OK players look like stars, but i think a big part of that is they were perfect for his scheme and his scheme was perfect for them.  it's easy to identify the traits/skills that we don't have at the wr position (palmer kinda has the man beating seperation by route running deep threat gene, but not in great quantities, and OF COURSE he's hurt) but (and i thought this was a good thing but what do i know) we seem to just love wrs who can run block above all else.  we are the number 1 or 2 rushing team in the nfl, and that's awesome, but it seems to have come at the cost of being able to let josh cook, and what really grinds my gears is we are lining up in like 11 vs NE and atl and getting nothing from it.  

 

there is an element, particularly on offense, of brean getting players (hines before, or the mix of backs and tes and ol we have now, you have to give him flowers for the job he's done there) and our OC just like refusing to use them.  we are near the bottom in the nfl in passes to backs, and last year we seemed allergic to play action passes (when we ran them the numbers were astounding).

 

we ish on bean for the lack of talent on the roster, and we ish on the corches for the frustrating stuff we see ahead of time but they seem to notice late in the game or not at all, but one of the biggest reasons i kinda thing we need a big reset of some kind is because if we just look at what our GM has done well (qb, rb, te, ol) it's baffling how our OC is running an O that emphasizes our total lack of talent at x/z.  the disconnect in our brain trust is itself i think our biggest issue right now.

 

 

🏆

 

Because the one I gave you in your post simply wasn't enough.

 

...and you dropped this 👑

 

 

[colin]

1 minute ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

 

🏆

 

Because the one I gave you in your post simply wasn't enough.

 

...and you dropped this 👑

 

 

 

lol, i wish there was a silly blushing emoticon.

 

i'm still a goofy homer, so i'm hoping mcclaps read the riot act over the bye week and forced brady to actually see what works and why and build his plans around that, rather than his kinda madden sampler pack of play calling.  our big giant corn fed uglies shoulda been just mugging the lil fast athletes of the ATL D and ground them to dust.  who cares who our WR 1 or 2 is when we are physically assaulting the d and making LBs spin like tops trying to cover tight ends and then having cook and TY catch quick passes out the back field slice them up like mike meyers.

[KOKBILLS]

26 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

I agree with you. I remember a lot of people on the "anyone but Coleman" wagon. I was one of them as well. 

 

The problem, I believe, was that there was one person that not only wasn't on the "No Coleman" wagon...but he led the Coleman Please train. And that was Josh Allen. For whatever reason, Allen wanted him and when he was there when we picked Beane made his QB happy. In my own mind, Beane not wanting to rock the boat with Josh is what led to him trading back twice. I believe he was hoping someone else would grab Coleman.

 

I appreciate a good conspiracy as much as the next guy... But I don't think this is the way it went down with Coleman, or Kincaid for that matter...and I think there is plenty of evidence in interviews, along with general knowledge on the way scouting departments work in the NFL to believe that's not what really happened.

Instead what I think happened is the Bills scouting department had their eyes on these guys for a year or two, maybe longer... When it gets closer to Draft time and they start setting up their boards they take their already favorite targets to the coaches, and in some special cases a player like Josh, and ask their opinion. The team is already VERY high on the prospect. they know they like them. When a coach or player backs it up it only gives them more fuel to go after that guy. As for the trade down, I think it was 100% because Coleman was the target all along and Beane knew, especially because of that 40 time and what he has said on multiple occasions about hoping a guy runs a little slow so he slides, he knew Coleman would still be there... And he was right. 

That's just how I see it. I think they just overvalued what Coleman could bring early on. They did not realize the level of project he was. It was poor scouting IMHO... And sure there was an added bonus that Josh liked the guy... I get that... But any GM in the NFL understands if they are making Draft picks and moves because that is a player their QB is telling them to pick... or if they are doing it for the purpose of keeping their QB happy... they are already doomed. It's just not the way it works... And Beane has a massive ego too... No way he picks Coleman unless it's his guy... He was just wrong... Elam was his guy too... So was Cody Ford... It happens... 

[GroteStreet]

7 minutes ago, KOKBILLS said:

 

I appreciate a good conspiracy as much as the next guy... But I don't think this is the way it went down with Coleman, or Kincaid for that matter...and I think there is plenty of evidence in interviews, along with general knowledge on the way scouting departments work in the NFL to believe that's not what really happened.

Instead what I think happened is the Bills scouting department had their eyes on these guys for a year or two, maybe longer... When it gets closer to Draft time and they start setting up their boards they take their already favorite targets to the coaches, and in some special cases a player like Josh, and ask their opinion. The team is already VERY high on the prospect. they know they like them. When a coach or player backs it up it only gives them more fuel to go after that guy. As for the trade down, I think it was 100% because Coleman was the target all along and Beane knew, especially because of that 40 time and what he has said on multiple occasions about hoping a guy runs a little slow so he slides, he knew Coleman would still be there... And he was right. 

That's just how I see it. I think they just overvalued what Coleman could bring early on. They did not realize the level of project he was. It was poor scouting IMHO... And sure there was an added bonus that Josh liked the guy... I get that... But any GM in the NFL understands if they are making Draft picks and moves because that is a player their QB is telling them to pick... or if they are doing it for the purpose of keeping their QB happy... they are already doomed. It's just not the way it works... And Beane has a massive ego too... No way he picks Coleman unless it's his guy... He was just wrong... Elam was his guy too... So was Cody Ford... It happens... 

Beane is accumulating quite a list of 'his guys' that turn out to be busts.  I get the feeling his list is longer than the average GM's list.

[TheBrownBear]

2 hours ago, DaggersEOD said:

Well at least we got Keon…

 

*looks for Keon on the chart*
 

Oh. 

Given what we know now, that chart makes me want to puke. 🤮

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

It was a horrible, horrible pick by Beane, McConkey or Worthy should've been the pick not Keon. The data i've seen said it at the time. We've all tried to rationalize it since hoping Coleman turns out better than we thought and Beane knew. This is why if the Bills are going to use a pick for WR next year I'd rather they trade it now for a proven performer. Beane and his crew have shown no aptitude for drafting a WR. And, if they're listening to Josh, they need to act like the adult in the room.

Edited 1 hour ago by D. L. Hot-Flamethrower

[The Frankish Reich]

Beane has been so obsessed with getting that big receiver that he overreaches.

Kelvin Benjamin: embarrassing bust.

Gabe Davis: great value draft pick, faded fast

Coleman: entering bust territory

 

This can happen when you get into a mentality that's like "we're really good, all we need to do is to add a big #1 receiver and an excellent CB." You forget that we also desperately need run-stopping DTs, LBs, a speedburner at receiver ... enough things other than QB and lead RB that it still makes sense to take the best player available.

[KentuckyBillsFan]

This team needs (and has needed) route runners not big jump ball receivers.. Beane is clueless.

[Buffalo Ballin]

Beane CANNOT draft quality receivers. He's just mentally incapable of drafting one. He just can't. 

[dollars 2 donuts]

1 hour ago, colin said:

 

lol, i wish there was a silly blushing emoticon.

 

i'm still a goofy homer, so i'm hoping mcclaps read the riot act over the bye week and forced brady to actually see what works and why and build his plans around that, rather than his kinda madden sampler pack of play calling.  our big giant corn fed uglies shoulda been just mugging the lil fast athletes of the ATL D and ground them to dust.  who cares who our WR 1 or 2 is when we are physically assaulting the d and making LBs spin like tops trying to cover tight ends and then having cook and TY catch quick passes out the back field slice them up like mike meyers.

 

 

Colin, brother, it was just so straight forward and sober.  You took a reality slap at what they were doing without any animosity toward them.

 

You were Joe Friday..."just the facts."

 

You covered a whole lot in just a few words, and you seemingly did it without putting any of your own guff in to it.

 

It is a gift, man, especially around here and one that I really wish I had.

 

it makes for clearer discourse.

 

 

 

Edited 54 minutes ago by dollars 2 donuts

[KOKBILLS]

59 minutes ago, colin said:

 

lol, i wish there was a silly blushing emoticon.

 

i'm still a goofy homer, so i'm hoping mcclaps read the riot act over the bye week and forced brady to actually see what works and why and build his plans around that, rather than his kinda madden sampler pack of play calling.  our big giant corn fed uglies shoulda been just mugging the lil fast athletes of the ATL D and ground them to dust.  who cares who our WR 1 or 2 is when we are physically assaulting the d and making LBs spin like tops trying to cover tight ends and then having cook and TY catch quick passes out the back field slice them up like mike meyers.

 

Thing is they did it on that 2nd half TD drive and it looked EASY... Where was that the whole game? 

[KOKBILLS]

1 hour ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

 

 

Brothers...man, what I can I tell you?

 

Yeah...definitely yeah.

 

"OOOOOOOOhhhhhh, now you say that about Ladd!!"

 

Nope...note just now.

 

Here IS the thing, though.  After some of these pick are made you do start to convince yourself, just to get over it.

 

It seems a lifelong thing...2006 NFL Draft:

 

Me and my buddy, in the same room - "The Raiders took Huff!  It is happening!  We are getting Haloti Ngata!!! We are getting him!!"

 

Moments later - "...

 

...

 

... (because, no lie, we were silent for about 30 seconds)

 

...Whitner?

 

Donte Whitner?!

 

It'll be alright.  He's good.  Good pick.  It will be fine."

 

 

 

No lie... I've told this story before on this board...

So... we all wanted Ngata... I was literally in my office Chanting Ngata! Ngata! Ngata!...

The pick comes in...

Whitner...

I'm in shock for a second... Then I'm pissed... So I decide to kick the 25 lb. dumbbell on the floor...

But I forget I'm bare footed...

I split my toe wide open and immediately there's blood everywhere... It looks like an ER scene...lol

So that's my Whitner/Ngata memory for life... 

Edited 1 hour ago by KOKBILLS

[CNYfan]

My comp on Coleman was Q. Johnston of the Chargers.   

Same type thing.  

Johnston struggled his first two years before starting pretty well this year.  

 

Invisible again lately, but some production in year 3.

[dollars 2 donuts]

15 minutes ago, KOKBILLS said:

 

No lie... I've told this story before on this board...

So... we all wanted Ngata... I was literally in my office Chanting Ngata! Ngata! Ngata!...

The pick comes in...

Whitner...

I'm in shock for a second... Then I'm pissed... So I decide to kick the 25 lb. dumbbell on the floor...

But I forget I'm bare footed...

I split my toe wide open and immediately there's blood everywhere... It looks like an ER scene...lol

So that's my Whitner/Ngata memory for life... 

 

🤣

 

KB...real time.  It happened in real time, but in slow motion.  

 

How do we explain to younglings that we are not making this up?  That so many of us had the same experience.  

 

Do you want me to make it worse, in a story I don't believe I have ever shared on the board (at least not in the last 20 years)?

 

That same buddy's nephew went to Oregon at the time and knew Ngata...AND he talked up how much Buffalo fans were loving him, hoping they'd pick him and was telling him the places to go in Buffalo for wings...AND Ngata was jazzed about the idea of being a Bill.

 

Anyone flame me all you want that it isn't true or it didn't happen.  Believe me, I get it, and maybe I wouldn't believe me.

 

...but it did.  it really did.

 

In my head, to this day, I can still hear, "You can never have enough DBs, you can never have enough DBs, you can never have enough DBs."

 

It is my "What's the Frequency, Kenneth?" pyscho flip switch.

 

Go Bills!

 

 

 

 

Edited 46 minutes ago by dollars 2 donuts