2015 Carolina Panthers: Have we ever been as good?

[PBF81]

11 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

You've missed the point again with the three games. 

 

Those three games you referred to were NOT what is required to prove that a QB is above average. The same thing can be said about every QB. Take his top three games out of any season and he will look much worse particuarly when you then take those vivisected thirteen game numbers and try to compare them against all the other QBs sixteen game stats.

 

That ... is ... how ... stats ... work.

 

And yet again you want to leave Newton's running out of the picture for exactly the obvious reasons. Newton's runs made him a ton more effective and a ton more productive. You can't isolate Newton's passing numbers, ignore the runs and pretend you are fairly evaluating Cam Newton as a QB. You aren't.

 

 

 

I've worked professionally all my life with stats.  I'm pretty sure I know how they work.  I've won plenty of recognition for my work as well, some of which is published.  Thanks for the explanation though.  LOL  

 

 

Edited May 10 by PBF81

[Mikie2times]

14 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

If I am to believe what is being sold in this thread than I would have to also know that Allen is criminally underrated. Underrated not just by the national media but by even Bills fans on TBD. Allen should be recognized as the alpha QB in today's game, even over Mahomes and perhaps by a wide margin.

 

Let's follow the logic laid out here.

 

1. Allen keeps the Bills contending year after year pretty much by himself because he hasn't been given the proper roster support by Beane and McDermott.

 

2. Mahomes, who everyone recognizes as the clear alpha QB in today's game, is surrounded by great talent and coaching over that same four year time period. Tyreek, GOAT tight end in Kelce, GOAT offensive coach in Reid, GOAT defensive coach in Spags and top 3 defensive player in the game today in Chris Jones. Just an absolute embarrassment of riches the KC ownership and GM have provided to Mahomes. Bravo. 

 

3. Despite the clear imbalance of riches between the two teams, Josh Allen, nearly by himself has managed to lead the Bills to the second most wins over that four year time period, trailing only the Chiefs. Josh Allen has gone a perfect 3-0 against the Chiefs and Mahomes in the last three regular season games and has played two nearly perfect playoff games against the Chiefs only to end up losing late due to circumstances largely out of his control. Literally one squib kick or one lucky bounce away from being 5-0 against the Chiefs and Mahomes in the last five contests between the two.

 

If all of the above is true, it's pretty clear who the alpha QB in today's game is. Or, more likely, the Bills roster these last four years has not been nearly as bad as some want to believe. 

 

Simple answers to complex things. Not surprising. 

5 hours ago, TH3 said:

So you don’t like our roster…is that your point?

I guess I'm a bit taken back that we haven't been able to build a better roster than that team. But the thread was intended for conversation. Nothing more.  

4 hours ago, Mister Defense said:

 

Did anyone else laugh out loud at t how ridiculous this post was!?

 

I could not imagine almost anyone looking at the two rosters, and also having seen both teams play, come to your laughable, and frankly bizarre take--that the 2015 Panthers were "MUCH more talented than any version of the Bills we have seen thus far". 

 

But then I read  the line, "Beane has had a good amount of time working on our roster" and realized you are simply a hater, so will, like the others, just spew out nonsense to fit your irrational narrative. (In the future could you please state your hate as your first line--so readers know what is coming, so could save themselves some time and just skip the post?)

 

And then you end with "This was a very good Carolina team but I don't like that it appears we have a deficit against them in nearly every position."

 

Why on earth would you be concerned with how the Bills stack up to, of all teams, the 2015 Panthers??

 

To almost any objective observer, almost any version of this Bills team over the last 5 years would not only stack up well against that one shot wonder, but would clean their clocks in almost any game. But  somehow you see that team as not just better, but "MUCH more talented" and at nearly every position!  (I just giggled like a school girl again when I wrote hat line!)

 

Don't let your hate get in the way of the actual reality.

 

No objective Bills fan would ever think that one year aberration was even in the same category as our current Bills team, which has been a serious and legitimate championship contender for years...

 

But thanks for the laughs on this Friday!

 

What positions are we better at on that roster?

[78thealltimegreat]

On 5/9/2024 at 10:23 AM, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Please. 

 

The fact that Diggs was drafted in the 5th completely ignores the fact that we spent a first on him. And he was worth it. Spending a first on a receiver is not putting receiver at a very low priority.

I’m just stating facts just cause he traded for 1 doesn’t mean that it was originally drafted as 1. 

On 5/9/2024 at 2:52 PM, Rampant Buffalo said:

 

Andy Isabella was originally a 2nd round pick. But I haven't seen anyone say, "Wow! Look at the 2nd round pick Beane just invested in the WR position, in the form of Isabella!"

 

It works the other way too.

At the time he wasn’t on the active roster. Matter a fact he wasn’t on the active roster till the Steelers playoff game. 

[78thealltimegreat]

On 5/9/2024 at 3:06 PM, BullBuchanan said:

That's a silly argument, because Diggs was clearly a first round talent when the trade was made. Davis is at worst a 2nd round talent at this point in his career. When the draft happens, guys are unknowns. After they've played in the league 4+ years, where they were drafted doesn't matter at all. You can either play or you can't.

We've got a ton of former 2nd round bums on this team now including Hamler, Claypool and Isabella. They aren't better than Gabe Davis just because they were drafted 2 rounds earlier.

Yeh the same Diggs they just literally dumped with no replacement on the roster for a 2025 pick. 

[BullBuchanan]

31 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Yeh the same Diggs they just literally dumped with no replacement on the roster for a 2025 pick. 

No, not the same. The 4 year younger version of him.

Edited May 10 by BullBuchanan

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

5 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

 What positions are we better at on that roster?

I would say QB, WR, and secondary have been better over the average of the last four seasons. Those are some pretty important position groups both today and back in 2015.

 

Many of the other groups are much closer than you give credit, IMO. Milano for example is no slouch as an all pro LB.

 

 

[CoudyBills]

On 5/9/2024 at 2:17 AM, GoBills808 said:

2015 Josh Norman is better than anything we've had secondary wise 

 

Absolute lockdown that season

The only group on that list with nod to the Bills should be qb.

[Rampant Buffalo]

9 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

I’m just stating facts just cause he traded for 1 doesn’t mean that it was originally drafted as 1.

 

There are two questions here: 1) Is Beane willing to invest in the WR position? and 2) Did the Diggs trade work out?

 

As for 1, he invested in the WR position. That includes the 1st round pick for Diggs. Diggs' original draft position is irrelevant to how much Beane invested in him.

 

As for 2, I personally believe the Diggs trade did not work out. You look at what we used on him, including the first round pick and the salary cap space. Then you look at what we got back. In his four years here, Diggs was 4/4 in playing well for the regular season. But was 0/4 in playing well for the postseason. If your goal is to win the Super Bowl, you can't have major resources tided up in a guy like that.

[Dan Darragh]

I didn't realize that Michael Oher ever played LT.  I thought he only played RT which is a sign of what a disappointment his pro career was given the hype.

[GunnerBill]

17 minutes ago, Dan Darragh said:

I didn't realize that Michael Oher ever played LT.  I thought he only played RT which is a sign of what a disappointment his pro career was given the hype.

 

Yea he was a kind of 1 year sticking plaster there for Carolina. Who until drafting Ekwonu (who also isn't the answer btw) had this crazy record of something like 8 different starting left tackles in 8 seasons.

 

The 2015 offensive line was an anomoly for the Panthers. Mainly on the back of the two guards - Norwell and Turner - who they drafted the year before both having career years either side of Ryan Kalil. The tackles were Oher and Remmers (neither of whom were great and who both got smoked endlessly in the Superbowl) who just managed to hold up enough.

[Mister Defense]

17 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

Simple answers to complex things. Not surprising. 

I guess I'm a bit taken back that we haven't been able to build a better roster than that team. But the thread was intended for conversation. Nothing more.  

What positions are we better at on that roster?

 

First and foremost, a  superior quarterback in Josh Allen.  No one, except some irrational haters would take Newton before Josh Allen.

 

A better wide receivers group every year of the last few years for the Bills, and that may also include this coming year with the major changes-I believe it will.

 

A better defensive line

 

You say that Olson was great, and he was, but I believe the Bills have a better tight end room now, with  two starting caliber tight ends in Kincaid and Knox.  Kincaid--the all time reception record for rookie tight ends last year.

 

(And while I think the Panther linebacker unit, with Kuechly and Davis, is better, the Bills' with Milano and Bernhard will be one of the best in the NFL this year.)

 

The 2015 Panthers were a one hit wonder Mr. Mikie, they did not even have a winning record the year before-OR the year after--5-8-1 and  6-8.  If they were such good team, and "MUCH more talented than any version of the Bills", doesn't that in itself really undermine your words in this strange post, focus? The Bills have been a championship contender for at least the last four years. And even with the significant turn over this off season they will likely be contenders again this coming year.  And sorry to disappoint you, and your prayers for their firings, but a significant reason for that is the two men you despise: Beane and MCDermott--no doubt about that.

 

And again, an extremely bizarre, wacky post, one designed just to make your point which is to spread more of your misinformation (hate)  about our team's leaders. I like irreverent things;  not shady attempts to spread nonsense.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 11 by Mister Defense

[Nextmanup]

Interesting analysis, Mr. OP.  Further evidence indicating why we'll be looking to move on from McD and possibly Beane, hopefully at the end of the upcoming season.

 

I've always liked Beane, I think he's a solid guy.  But if he is going to emphasize the wrong positions and neglect receiving in 2024, and can't even consistently get us to an AFC championship game, move on!

 

So far Beane and McDermott have drastically underperformed given that we have a difference maker only a few teams have.

 

They'll get it just about right...but not quite...in the last solid year of Josh's career.  LOL.

 

 

[Mister Defense]

24 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Interesting analysis, Mr. OP.  Further evidence indicating why we'll be looking to move on from McD and possibly Beane, hopefully at the end of the upcoming season.

 

I've always liked Beane, I think he's a solid guy.  But if he is going to emphasize the wrong positions and neglect receiving in 2024, and can't even consistently get us to an AFC championship game, move on!

 

So far Beane and McDermott have drastically underperformed given that we have a difference maker only a few teams have.

 

They'll get it just about right...but not quite...in the last solid year of Josh's career.  LOL.

 

 

 

Lol

 

Yes, really good 'evidence' presented in the OP--'So PLEASE get me a GM and a coach that could field a team more like the 2015 Panthers than our most recent Bills' team, which would beat that team 98/100 times---and that goes 5-8-1 in the previous year and 6-8 the year after.' 

 

Makes perfect sense to want that kind of team and organization rather than the team we have had and will have...

 

As most on this board realize, THAT is what we may have here in Buffalo if the irrational haters get their way.

 

Very fortunately for Bills fans, the Pegulas, and the Bills' brain trust, are not that ignorant or stupid.

 

An extremely sharp example of what the haters would get if they could get it.

 

 

 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

7 hours ago, Rampant Buffalo said:

 

There are two questions here: 1) Is Beane willing to invest in the WR position? and 2) Did the Diggs trade work out?

 

As for 1, he invested in the WR position. That includes the 1st round pick for Diggs. Diggs' original draft position is irrelevant to how much Beane invested in him.

 

As for 2, I personally believe the Diggs trade did not work out. You look at what we used on him, including the first round pick and the salary cap space. Then you look at what we got back. In his four years here, Diggs was 4/4 in playing well for the regular season. But was 0/4 in playing well for the postseason. If your goal is to win the Super Bowl, you can't have major resources tided up in a guy like that.

 

Disagree with the #2. The goal now is to win a Super Bowl. That's because Diggs helped Allen become the QB he is today. You can't even really put a price tag on value like that. Diggs helped the Bills become relevant year after year after two decades on being non-relevant. I find some value in that as well. Agree with your point of Diggs being a dud in the playoffs for the Bills. But that alone does not make the Diggs trade one that did not workout. 

 

I think folks also don't put enough stock into the drafting of Kincaid. The most recent Super Bowl dynasties futured TE's as their #1 skill player. Coincidence? In today's game an elite TE can put you over the top. Perhaps because they are hard so rare? Elite WR's grow on trees it seems and can even be traded for. Every team can have an elite WR so having one doesn't do enough to separate a team from the rest of the pack of good teams. 

[Mr. WEO]

On 5/9/2024 at 1:44 AM, 90sBills said:

Short answer would be NO. But this team has higher potential with sustainability. 

 

is that why they are "in a rebuild"?

[Maine-iac]

Haven't read through all 7 pages but if the theme is building a team like (or better than) the Panthers 2015 SB team then the last year has us closer than ever.  That 2015 teams passing game ran through the TE which is where we seem to be headed.  The Panthers were also a defensive driven team which is where luck/fate whatever you want to call it comes into play.  I don't vividly remember injury situations from the 2015 Panthers but I don't think half their team was out for their SB run they had.  No matter what team we build if half of them are on the bench or IR nursing injuries in Jan and Feb it's going to make things much harder.  I'm not sure going down the roster tit for tat tells the real story of why we have or haven't advanced to a SB.  

[90sBills]

56 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

is that why they are "in a rebuild"?

Sometimes you have to take a step back to go further. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Maine-iac said:

I'm not sure going down the roster tit for tat tells the real story of why we have or haven't advanced to a SB.  

 

They also didn't have Patrick Mahomes in their way.

[Mikie2times]

3 hours ago, Mister Defense said:

 

First and foremost, a  superior quarterback in Josh Allen.  No one, except some irrational haters would take Newton before Josh Allen.

 

A better wide receivers group every year of the last few years for the Bills, and that may also include this coming year with the major changes-I believe it will.

 

A better defensive line

 

You say that Olson was great, and he was, but I believe the Bills have a better tight end room now, with  two starting caliber tight ends in Kincaid and Knox.  Kincaid--the all time reception record for rookie tight ends last year.

 

(And while I think the Panther linebacker unit, with Kuechly and Davis, is better, the Bills' with Milano and Bernhard will be one of the best in the NFL this year.)

 

The 2015 Panthers were a one hit wonder Mr. Mikie, they did not even have a winning record the year before-OR the year after--5-8-1 and  6-8.  If they were such good team, and "MUCH more talented than any version of the Bills", doesn't that in itself really undermine your words in this strange post, focus? The Bills have been a championship contender for at least the last four years. And even with the significant turn over this off season they will likely be contenders again this coming year.  And sorry to disappoint you, and your prayers for their firings, but a significant reason for that is the two men you despise: Beane and MCDermott--no doubt about that.

 

And again, an extremely bizarre, wacky post, one designed just to make your point which is to spread more of your misinformation (hate)  about our team's leaders. I like irreverent things;  not shady attempts to spread nonsense.

 

 

 

 

So you feel Buffalo has been better? Not sure why that triggered you so greatly. You yourself just said at the very most 3 position groups are better out of what? 8 total? The furthest we have gone is not as far as they went. Now we enter rebuilding and sure, we can possibly hang another AFC east banner this year but is that because we built a better team or as you said we have gotten much better contributions at QB? How much does it even matter? Who cares about the AFC east titles if we don’t have the talent to go further. 

 

Outside that MVP year Newton did not perform like a Top 3 QB and just because you give this regime credit for Josh consistently doing so the reason we consistently fall short is because we cant build a better all around team. At least that’s what it appears to me.
 

I mean, when you look at the positional groupings of a team many people including yourself have basically called trash, then you consider that we are not better than the trash in the majority of those groupings. Hmmm. Maybe that is why I made this post. For all our success I was surprised that those Carolina squads had more talent. Which to me says a lot about the perceived success of this regime and the direction it’s going. This is not the first rodeo for any of them and the face that in many ways it looks the same or worse doesn’t get me all hot and bothered. 

[NastyNateSoldiers]

On 5/9/2024 at 5:42 PM, Paup 1995MVP said:

That’s a lazy opinion.  Everyone can run at the skill positions in the NFL. Do you think Shakir is slow?  Ask the Steelers what they think of his movement. Samuel is fast also.  James Cook is fast.  Hell Josh Allen is fast at QB.  We let Poyer and Hyde go because  they got older and slower.  Our LB’s can all move.  
 

And don’t  forget football is a physical game.  You have to be tough in the trenches.  That is how Beane has built the team.  Good on both lines.  Watch the way defenses play now.  Teams keep their DB’s back to take away the deep ball.  No one is overly successful throwing the deep ball now including Mahomes.   It’s a lot of short and intermediate passing, and hope for good YAC.  That’s why Kincaid will feast this year.  And btw he can run also.  

 

THE Bills philosophy has been super solid the past 5 years.  We need to stay healthier on defense this year.  And peak as the season heads toward the playoffs.  Getting rid of Diggs will be good for the offense.  He became a cancer last season and sucked in the playoffs all 4 years.  
 

i am excited about the team with a lot of new players.  As a fan going through the offseason and heading into a new season, all you want and hope for is a solid chance to win.  Beane gives us that every year.  How it goes once the season starts and plays out remains to be seen.  But I love the organization and how we build a team every year.  

You think our Dline is good? I think it's average at best and considering all the assets they put into it we should be much better on the Dline.