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Tyler Dunne story on McDermott - 3 parts, 25 interviews, one damning conclusion


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11 minutes ago, RichRiderBills said:

I don't need to be a comedian or movie maker to tell you "Freddy Got Fingered" ( IMO the worst movie of all time) is a horrible movie. The sniff test.

 

Dunne's piece does not pass the sniff test. 

 

Well youre wrong about one of the greatest cinematic masterpieces of all time, so I guess youre probably wrong about Dunne's article! :thumbsup:

 

 

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7 minutes ago, wettlaufer said:

So, peer-reviewed clinician objects to peer review. Got it.

 

Not at all; peer-reviewed scientist (not clinician) objects to being doxxed on a football fan site, where scientific credentials (not to mention my home address) are not at all relevant to assessing my POV on football fan topics.

 

7 minutes ago, wettlaufer said:

This is a very reasoned response and I appreciate it.

 

Dunne had to get this out because his time, like that of any of us, is worth money. This thing was an investment of time and reputation and I don't think it was frivolous or shoddy.

 

Thank you for your kind words.

We agree that this piece was a substantial investment of time, and that time is money to Dunne as to the rest of us.  This is how Dunne makes his living and feeds himself and his family.   And, whether coincidence or not, the timing of the release likely maximized interest - and thus, potentially, money through subscribers.

 

I don't think it was frivolous or shoddy, but it does seem pretty clear that Dunne is not simply serving as a conduit for others anecdotes and opinions, but either 1) shaping what he gathered to support his own POV or 2) inserting his own POV that was shaped by the opinions and anecdotes he gathered.  I can't tell which.  Probably to some extent, both.  And I don't think we can rule out shaping a POV to maximize controversy - and thus, potentially, money through subscribers.

 

As you say, it was an investment of time, and time is money.

 

Dunne had to collect his own sources and persuade them to talk to him.  One way to do that is talk to a handful of guys, and they each suggest you talk to a couple guys, and so forth.  It wouldn't take long to build up a large number of sources that way, but it would be pretty easy to slide into a collection of sources that pretty much serve as an echo chamber, reinforcing the same POV.  And, if current players and coaches don't generally want to talk to him, especially during the season, many of his sources will be former coaches and players. 

 

It leads to, as John Wawrow said, "People have issues with their former boss: story at 11".

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On 12/7/2023 at 10:55 AM, hondo in seattle said:

Let me be the naysayer who gets smacked around for a divergent view...

 

I like Dunne.  And he says he talked to 25 people for this article.  That's an impressive number.  

 

But I wonder who he talked to and which ones he quoted?  Coaches who were fired?  Players who were cut?  

 

It would be nice if he sought out a random sample.  Both McD detractors and fans.  But he seemingly didn't do that.  

 

I'm not arguing McD is perfect and doesn't do any wrong.  I just don't think Dunne's article is the final word.  We've heard a lot of players talk about how much they love the culture of the Bills.  Things aren't all bad.  

 

 

Yup

 

Search the web to find all of the stories of how horrible it is to play for Belicheck, as if the poor players were almost prisoners of war...

 

And all the Pats and Belicheck did was win 6 Super Bowls, earn the respect of the vast majority of players who played (and coached) for him, and become the best head coach to ever coach in the NFL.

 

Dunne cherry picked his info from the fired, dismissed and otherwise disenfranchised former Bills--you can do this to almost ANY highly successful person, across fields, because that is the price of success and of wanting things done well.

 

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2 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

Dunne cherry picked his info from the fired, dismissed and otherwise disenfranchised former Bills--you can do this to almost ANY highly successful person, across fields, because that is the price of success and of wanting things done well.

 

To be fair, I don't know that Dunne cherry-picked fired or dismissed former Bills.  But, he has to go out and independently persuade people to talk to him. 

And, typically, people who are "salty" are more interested in having someone give them a voice, right?

 

Then there's the fact that who knows how many people Dunne talked to overall - people who were "I had fun playing for Buffalo, nothing really bad to say about it" aren't much of a story.

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I just want to comment on a few things here.  Mostly I agree with your writeup.

 

1. Please everyone... I don't want you to think I am trying to get you to pay for the article. I just wish that people wouldn't go ape ***** and make all kinds of comments when they haven't read but a little snippet of it.  That simply isn't fair and a lot of misinformation.  Making a comment on a snippet that was read is fair.  Passing it off to the whole article is not.

 

2. " One coach disputed that McDermott ever slept at the facility and said there were times when he left earlier than some coaches.  These just seem like pot shots to me 🤷‍♂️"    This was not a pot shot or sour grapes. This was Dunne backing up his opinion that McD was fake. Remember, this part really started with McD telling the media that he often sleeps at work.  If it is indeed true that he doesn't, and I am not making a claim whether he does or not, then that would be fake or phony.

 

Thats about all really.  I don't disagree really with anything you say here.  I felt it was worth the 8 bucks because I enjoyed the read.  I like knowing things I don't know.  Have to know where to separate Dunne's opinion from the truths of the article and come to a conclusion for yourself.  You seem to be able to do that.  Ya know, everyone is going to have their own opinion.  I just want people to actually read before making it because that's the fair thing to do, but I am not trying to suggest anyone pay for it.


I have to respectfully disagree a bit here with your take.  Yes, the idea to include that was to show that he doesn’t practice what he preached. 


But the gist of the article was that McDermott was serious about NFL 24/7 to the point that it became a detriment.  So it’s not like we’re talking about a Rex Ryan work ethic.  The guy works hard.  So for the source to say he never knew of McDermott actually slept in the office or that he wasn’t always the last one out seems a little petty to me.   If you’re the boss and you try to set the example of being “the first one in and the last one out,” obviously there are going to some days when this isn’t the case.  
 

To me, this kind of pettiness is what happens when you don’t like your boss or supervisor.   You look for things that they do wrong and then privately take shots at them.

 

This is where the sour grapes and bitterness in and why people are calling into question Dunne’s bias and where the “character attack” come into play.  
 

I haven’t read Part 2 or Part 3 but my guess is that the overall message is - “Is Sean McDermott the right coach to lead Buffalo to the Super Bowl.”

 

That’s a fair and topical question, which I feel could have been achieved without these kind of stories from bitter ex employees.  
 

But that’s just me.  It’s okay for others to have a different take.  

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Just now, Beck Water said:

 

To be fair, I don't know that Dunne cherry-picked fired or dismissed former Bills.  But, he has to go out and independently persuade people to talk to him. 

And, typically, people who are "salty" are more interested in having someone give them a voice, right?

 

Then there's the fact that who knows how many people Dunne talked to overall - people who were "I had fun playing for Buffalo, nothing really bad to say about it" aren't much of a story.

 

 

 

Yes, and especially true of someone like Dunne, whose income depends on it, on getting people excited and interested in his work so they pay him directly.

 

Who are some of the movie directors considered most difficult to work with?

 

Jamee Cameron

 

Alfred Hitchcock

 

Francis Ford Coppola

 

Stanley Kubrick

 

...

 

Men who did it their way, because they were ahead of their time and knew what they wanted.  Without that, those names would be meaningless to us.

 

I believe that like coaches like Reid and Vermeil, and Belicheck that McD will soon rise to the top.

 

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10 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

I haven’t read Part 2 or Part 3 but my guess is that the overall message is - “Is Sean McDermott the right coach to lead Buffalo to the Super Bowl.”

 

That’s a fair and topical question, which I feel could have been achieved without these kind of stories from bitter ex employees.  
 

But that’s just me.  It’s okay for others to have a different take.  

 

Bingo.  We concur.

 

I'll even go further: the piece might have been more effective at elevating that question for discussion, without all the ancillary stories that, given the wording and slant, seem to reach the point of character attack.

 

The real question the Bills have to address, is whether McDermott's in-game decision making can improve, and whether he can develop himself as a team coach, not one who focuses on defense to the detriment of offense sometimes.

 

I just posted a link from a Jim Kelly interview over in the KC game week thread.  I thought it was interesting that Kelly specifically mentioned in-game decisions as needing to be better.

 

9 minutes ago, wettlaufer said:

I think it leads to, why can the Bills close out games. Bottom line.

 

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but in mine, I think the degree to which it was slanted and seemed personal distracted from that very germaine and topical and important question.

Edited by Beck Water
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34 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

I don't think it was frivolous or shoddy, but it does seem pretty clear that Dunne is not simply serving as a conduit for others anecdotes and opinions, but either 1) shaping what he gathered to support his own POV or 2) inserting his own POV that was shaped by the opinions and anecdotes he gathered.  I can't tell which.  Probably to some extent, both.  And I don't think we can rule out shaping a POV to maximize controversy - and thus, potentially, money through subscribers


This is basically what I tried to say, but just written a lot better!

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1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

Dunne?  Ty Dunne?  Is that you? 😄  Just kidding.

 

I write reports.  I write for publication.  Last paper I wrote had 32 referenced sources and was so dry and technical you could place it in the desert and have it blend right in.

 

Journalism isn't my thing.  However, I feel I have some idea how journalists operate because I chat with them on occasion. 

Here's the thing: Ty Dunne is technically an independent contractor now.  He isn't writing for AP or for TBN which have standards for sourcing and verification in what they publish (Source: discussion with TBN sports editor Josh Barnett and AP reporter John Wawrow).  Upthread, I quoted an article by reporter and former Dunne mentor Chuck Pollock who points out that if Dunne were writing for a newspaper, there is no way he could have published a piece like that based on so many anonymous sources.  

So, writing independently gives Dunne great power he wouldn't have if he were writing for a publication.  "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility" as Spiderman's Uncle Ben said repeatedly.

 

What Dunne wrote is, in journalistic terms, an opinion piece or opinion column.  He has sources, but he's not simply a conduit; he's not limiting himself to the "testimony of others".  He's mixing in his own slant and interpretation and using the sources to illustrate and support it.  That's not necessarily a bad thing, just a style of journalistic writing.  Several people upthread have gone point by point through fair-use excerpts and shown this pretty conclusively.  But, that you don't recognize this and refer to Dunne as "a conduit" and say "the testimony belongs to others", casts some doubt about your own understanding. 

 

I wouldn't argue that it was 'released to inflict damage'.  I don't know or pretend to know Dunne's motivations.  Dunne himself said in public interviews that he rushed completing the article after the Eagles game because he felt that close OT loss illustrated many of his points.   I think releasing it at a nexus point in the season, has the potential to maximize the interest it generates, and thus the traffic to Dunne's site/subscribers.  It's pretty clearly in Dunne's financial interest to release it now, but I don't know for sure whether financial interest motivated him, either.  Releasing it now also has a high potential to cause damage to the Bills season, but I can't tell you if that was a motivation or collateral damage.

 

 

 

You can't learn everything by google.  You seem like a swiss army knife guy.  Usually that means tries to be good at everything but is only mediocre at each thing.  In this case I think tries to know everything but only knows little bits about everything.  I am not trying to be funny or say anything about you here.  I'm just saying that in just about every topic imaginable you whip out a long post trying to sound expert at it. A lot of it is something someone would have to google because it wouldn't make sense for one person to seemingly know about all these various things. I actually like that you do that because then I don't have to google. What I don't like is you act like you are an expert at things and know better than everyone else.  I dunno, you just seem a little uppity/snobbish sometimes. Googling things makes you no expert.  A lot of times google information can be wrong if you don't know what you are doing too.

 

In any case.  You have no idea of Dunne's motives only your own "slant" or opinion on him.  Where did he say it was "rushed" by the way? I'd like to read it.  What I read is... "A quick note on “timing.” We discussed Thursday night on the Happy Hour, too, but in a nutshell: The series was posted this week because the series was completed this week. It was not finished after the Cincinnati loss or the Denver loss. And, as written, the loss at Philadelphia appeared to encapsulate this era of football under Sean McDermott. At 6-6, the Bills are now at a crucial crossroads." 

 

It actually does encapsulate the Sean McDermott era because the premise is that Sean pisses his pants in big moments.  He does.  Thats why his record is so bad in big moments.  Thats why mistakes keep happening in big moments. Thats why timeouts keep happening in big moments.  Thats why he tries to control everything instead of trusting his people in big moments.  Thats why 13 seconds happened. Thats why he kneels the ball down with 20 seconds to go against the best team in the league with Josh Allen playing the best ball of his career... because the dude craps his pants in big moments.  So yeah, it was the perfect time to release the article in this sense.

 

Sure, maybe he made sure he got it out this week.  He has been working on it a long time though.  Comments like "trying to inflict damage" Just lol.  He is building a career.  Thats it.  He spent a long time writing an article and released it.  It's his job.  Thats what he does.  Really nothing more needs to be said or said at all.  Anybody saying anything is just looking for one thing... to completely discredit the work in any way possible.

 

Yup, he wrote a story.  He has an opinion and uses facts, player, and staff comments to support that opinion.  Thats the type of writer he is.  It's a legitimate style of sports writing or any writing.  So, what's bad about that?  Anyone intelligent can separate his opinion from the sourced comments and make their own opinion.  People give their opinion all day long here and treat it as fact. What many neglect and don't want to admit in this thread is that even after removing Dunne's opinion, the comments from players and staff are still there and they are real.  Even yourself. Snippets, like google, is not enough.  All the snippets in this thread is not even one page of a 3 page article. It's probably enough for those with dare I say an axe to grind with the reporter.

 

Yeah maybe with that many sources a big newspaper wouldn't publish that article.  They can and do publish articles with anonymous sources all the time.  All they ask is that they are verified. This is just another case of you trying to discredit the article.  I don't give two craps if the sources remain anonymous.  Thats typical.  As long as I believe the comments are real and I do.  There is nothing anywhere indicating that Dunne is a liar.  There isn't really any media anywhere that discredits him. Everything I have seen shows that Dunne is a respected reporter.  I don't think he is going to tank his career for 800, 8000, or even 80000 bucks like you alluded to before either.  Nobody tanking their career for no Christmas vacation.

 

People that love McDermott and are afraid to see him go will rip Dunne and his article apart. Even if they haven't read it.  People that hate McD and want to see him go will use it as justification.  I think both are bogus.  They both miss what an article like this is.  It's real information from real players and staff that people normally don't get to see.  If ya ever wanted to be a fly on the wall... this is the type of piece that will give you that.  Not the generic PC's with no real information.  Not Sal C or Chris Brown who toe the company line.  If you want real information this is the type of report you want to read.  Instead we got people trying to trash the writer because oh no he hurt my precious McD or people that hate McD using it as fuel.  

 

I have my own opinions and conclusions.  I wanted McD gone before the article.  There are many reasons for it.  There were also reasons that I wanted to keep him this long and it took me to this season to get there.  The article has nothing to do with it.  It does make some things line up and make sense.  Those things were from player/staff comments in the article and not from the writers opinion though.  Next I would like to be a fly on the wall for the rift between Daboll and McD.

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5 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

You can't learn everything by google.  You seem like a swiss army knife guy.  Usually that means tries to be good at everything but is only mediocre at each thing.  In this case I think tries to know everything but only knows little bits about everything.  I am not trying to be funny or say anything about you here.  I'm just saying that in just about every topic imaginable you whip out a long post trying to sound expert at it. A lot of it is something someone would have to google because it wouldn't make sense for one person to seemingly know about all these various things. I actually like that you do that because then I don't have to google. What I don't like is you act like you are an expert at things and know better than everyone else.  I dunno, you just seem a little uppity/snobbish sometimes. Googling things makes you no expert.  A lot of times google information can be wrong if you don't know what you are doing too.

 

In any case.  You have no idea of Dunne's motives only your own "slant" or opinion on him.  Where did he say it was "rushed" by the way? I'd like to read it.  What I read is... "A quick note on “timing.” We discussed Thursday night on the Happy Hour, too, but in a nutshell: The series was posted this week because the series was completed this week. It was not finished after the Cincinnati loss or the Denver loss. And, as written, the loss at Philadelphia appeared to encapsulate this era of football under Sean McDermott. At 6-6, the Bills are now at a crucial crossroads." 

 

It actually does encapsulate the Sean McDermott era because the premise is that Sean pisses his pants in big moments.  He does.  Thats why his record is so bad in big moments.  Thats why mistakes keep happening in big moments. Thats why timeouts keep happening in big moments.  Thats why he tries to control everything instead of trusting his people in big moments.  Thats why 13 seconds happened. Thats why he kneels the ball down with 20 seconds to go against the best team in the league with Josh Allen playing the best ball of his career... because the dude craps his pants in big moments.  So yeah, it was the perfect time to release the article in this sense.

 

Sure, maybe he made sure he got it out this week.  He has been working on it a long time though.  Comments like "trying to inflict damage" Just lol.  He is building a career.  Thats it.  He spent a long time writing an article and released it.  It's his job.  Thats what he does.  Really nothing more needs to be said or said at all.  Anybody saying anything is just looking for one thing... to completely discredit the work in any way possible.

 

Yup, he wrote a story.  He has an opinion and uses facts, player, and staff comments to support that opinion.  Thats the type of writer he is.  It's a legitimate style of sports writing or any writing.  So, what's bad about that?  Anyone intelligent can separate his opinion from the sourced comments and make their own opinion.  People give their opinion all day long here and treat it as fact. What many neglect and don't want to admit in this thread is that even after removing Dunne's opinion, the comments from players and staff are still there and they are real.  Even yourself. Snippets, like google, is not enough.  All the snippets in this thread is not even one page of a 3 page article. It's probably enough for those with dare I say an axe to grind with the reporter.

 

Yeah maybe with that many sources a big newspaper wouldn't publish that article.  They can and do publish articles with anonymous sources all the time.  All they ask is that they are verified. This is just another case of you trying to discredit the article.  I don't give two craps if the sources remain anonymous.  Thats typical.  As long as I believe the comments are real and I do.  There is nothing anywhere indicating that Dunne is a liar.  There isn't really any media anywhere that discredits him. Everything I have seen shows that Dunne is a respected reporter.  I don't think he is going to tank his career for 800, 8000, or even 80000 bucks like you alluded to before either.  Nobody tanking their career for no Christmas vacation.

 

People that love McDermott and are afraid to see him go will rip Dunne and his article apart. Even if they haven't read it.  People that hate McD and want to see him go will use it as justification.  I think both are bogus.  They both miss what an article like this is.  It's real information from real players and staff that people normally don't get to see.  If ya ever wanted to be a fly on the wall... this is the type of piece that will give you that.  Not the generic PC's with no real information.  Not Sal C or Chris Brown who toe the company line.  If you want real information this is the type of report you want to read.  Instead we got people trying to trash the writer because oh no he hurt my precious McD or people that hate McD using it as fuel.  

 

I have my own opinions and conclusions.  I wanted McD gone before the article.  There are many reasons for it.  There were also reasons that I wanted to keep him this long and it took me to this season to get there.  The article has nothing to do with it.  It does make some things line up and make sense.  Those things were from player/staff comments in the article and not from the writers opinion though.  Next I would like to be a fly on the wall for the rift between Daboll and McD.

 

One of the most incoherent, rambling posts I've ever read on these illustrious boards...good show man!

 

 

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On 12/8/2023 at 7:28 AM, PBF81 said:

 

Distinguished though?

 

The only reason that Shula's here is bc he took was on Carolina.  

 

To early to tell with Brady.  Need more games, a bigger body of work to evaluate.  

 

So far so good, but hardly distinguished at this point.  

 

 

Kromer is a distinguished coach. He's a top 3 OL coach in the NFL

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53 minutes ago, JohnNord said:


I have to respectfully disagree a bit here with your take.  Yes, the idea to include that was to show that he doesn’t practice what he preached. 


But the gist of the article was that McDermott was serious about NFL 24/7 to the point that it became a detriment.  So it’s not like we’re talking about a Rex Ryan work ethic.  The guy works hard.  So for the source to say he never knew of McDermott actually slept in the office or that he wasn’t always the last one out seems a little petty to me.   If you’re the boss and you try to set the example of being “the first one in and the last one out,” obviously there are going to some days when this isn’t the case.  
 

To me, this kind of pettiness is what happens when you don’t like your boss or supervisor.   You look for things that they do wrong and then privately take shots at them.

 

This is where the sour grapes and bitterness in and why people are calling into question Dunne’s bias and where the “character attack” come into play.  
 

I haven’t read Part 2 or Part 3 but my guess is that the overall message is - “Is Sean McDermott the right coach to lead Buffalo to the Super Bowl.”

 

That’s a fair and topical question, which I feel could have been achieved without these kind of stories from bitter ex employees.  
 

But that’s just me.  It’s okay for others to have a different take.  

 

Sorry I don't agree.  I do agree with the part that maybe there are just some disgruntled workers but the over all message on that comment was to back up his claim that McD is fake.  He said that McD was fake.  He showed how McD said to the press that he sleeps at work and then he shows a source saying McD don't sleep at work.  That is what happened sour grapes or not.  Do you actually know that McD sleeps at work first hand?  If he doesn't then McD is in fact fake.

 

Yes the overall message of the article is “Is Sean McDermott the right coach to lead Buffalo to the Super Bowl.”

 

Not this type of article can't, no.  The article is much more interesting with real comments from people and not just some feels from opinion.  Even bitter ex employees can tell the truth.  Just because they are bitter doesn't mean they are making ***** up.

 

 

5 minutes ago, RichRiderBills said:

 

One of the most incoherent, rambling posts I've ever read on these illustrious boards...good show man!

 

 

 

Good for you.  I didn't ask.

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17 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

You can't learn everything by google.  You seem like a swiss army knife guy.  Usually that means tries to be good at everything but is only mediocre at each thing.  In this case I think tries to know everything but only knows little bits about everything.  I am not trying to be funny or say anything about you here.  I'm just saying that in just about every topic imaginable you whip out a long post trying to sound expert at it. A lot of it is something someone would have to google because it wouldn't make sense for one person to seemingly know about all these various things. I actually like that you do that because then I don't have to google. What I don't like is you act like you are an expert at things and know better than everyone else.  I dunno, you just seem a little uppity/snobbish sometimes. Googling things makes you no expert.  A lot of times google information can be wrong if you don't know what you are doing too.

Feels like you can just look at the bolded look at the rest and promptly ignore everything else you say.

Edited by Warcodered
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28 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

He showed how McD said to the press that he sleeps at work and then he shows a source saying McD don't sleep at work.  That is what happened sour grapes or not.  Do you actually know that McD sleeps at work first hand?  If he doesn't then McD is in fact fake.


Here’s where I differ.  That anonymous coach or player that was interviewed likely does not have access to building logs.  He was not aware that McDermott slept at work, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.   So it’s basically conjecture - yet this is what Dunne chose to put in the article and what you are regarding as a “fact.”  
 

Besides, even if he never technically slept at work, does it matter?  He clearly worked a lot of long hours in Buffalo and throughout his other stops.  We could get into so many areas - maybe he was referring to office sleeping in Buffalo, but to his Carolina or Philadelphia days.  

 

Either way we’re getting into semantics here.  The response in the video was about setting an example to his children of hard work more than it was about sleeping in the office.  

This is where it does matter that he used disgruntled coaches with an ax to grind.  It’s like the example I used.  A boss preaches that supervisors need to be “the first to arrive and the last to leave.”  On the day he has to leave early for whatever reason it would be like one of the managers shouting “you said you’re the last one to leave, but you left before us today.  You’re a liar.”  Sooooo incredibly stupid.  

 

And it’s that kind of mentality that has rubbed a lot of fans the wrong way and major reason why Dunne is facing so much blowback from fans and why so many are unwilling to pay a nominal fee of $8 to read his work.

Edited by JohnNord
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